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Jabiru RV-12 Update

Generator output?

Katie.. I guess this is a little tangential but do you know how the electrical power output of the Jabiru compares to the Rotax? One of the things I really like about your plane is the panel it has in it. I believe you guys went with the GRT glass.. I would probably still favor Dynon. I am wondering given the delays in getting the Dynon 10" out from Van's apparently related to electrical power concerns if the situation is better or worse with the Jabiru 2200 FWF kit?

Carl
 
Alternator...

The alternator in the 2200 and 3300 puts out 20 amps continuous. You can see what we have in our panel with the dual 8.4" GRT Sport SX screens, PAR100EX by PS-Engineering (we're the launch customer for that, by the way! And it works great!) Garmin SL30, GTX327, EIS 4000, 2 MicroSun landing lights, and Pulsar EXP tip lights. We run all of these in our Jabiru LSA aircraft and more (TruTrak DigiFlight II autopilot, electric flaps, etc) and don't have problems. In really cold temps or when your battery is low, you should be careful that you don't run everything all at once for a long time on the ground, because the alternator won't put out full power below 1800 rpm, give or take. But, I've got 350 hours or so behind Jab powered planes with all of this equipment and haven't had a battery issue except for when I flooded an engine on startup or forgot to shut the master switch off. :eek: (in other words, pilot-induced battery issues.)

We put GRT or Garmin displays in all of our planes, so I don't know anything about Dynon requirements.
 
jabiru rv 12

:) Katie great to see it flying . I have not done much to my 12 in the last few weeks:(. When can you have a firewall forward ready? I do have my motor mount on for the 3300. Keep us updated and a big congratulations ..Oren
 
Times 3 - I'm sure more too.

dealfair said:
Katie,

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your work on replacing the Rotax engine.

The time is approaching where I will have to go with a Light Sport Aircraft. I love Van's RV's; but was extremely disappointed they chose the Rotax engine.

...

Thank you again for your work on this and please continue to keep us posted.

Cheers and wishing you the best in your endeavors.
Click to expand...
 
Well...the guys are trying different configurations of the oil cooler to get the oil temps down a bit. Still running 215-225 degrees. They also want to try a prop with more pitch, since the RPM is a bit high in climb and flat-out cruise. The bird will be at Oshkosh... unfortunately still naked, but she doesn't need paint to fly cross country!
 
I want to see it at Osh, but I want you to park it right next to another -12 with a Rotax for easy visual comparison.
 
Jabiru USA OSH Booth Location

We're in Booths 134 & 135, off the northwest corner of Exhibit Hangar D, and just north of the Fly Market. The RV-12 will be there next to our Jabiru J230 S-LSA, and the Arion Lightning boys will be right next to us. I'm not sure yet what the booth will look like, since our tents got shredded at Sun n Fun and we're awaiting delivery of the new ones. Anyway, stop by & say HI!
 
Arlington

Our Northwest LSA dealer will be at Arlington with his Jabiru J250 S-LSA. He can tell you about the engines, but doesn't know a whole lot about the RV-12project because Jabiru airplanes are his focus.
 
Arlington

Thanks Katie ...
OK if I come direct to you when it's time to chat?

Regards, Tom

Tom Sampson
Minimax Ultralight built, flown, sold
Aeronca Champ Partial restore, flown, sold
RV9a built and flown - sold
RV7 built --- currently flying
Looking for "what's next" ...
 
Certainly! You can talk with Pete, he's done most of the test flying and firewall-forward design. (You can talk to me too, but everything I know is already here on VAF...)

(931) 680-2800
www.usjabiru.com


Tom Sampson said:
Thanks Katie ...
OK if I come direct to you when it's time to chat?

Regards, Tom

Tom Sampson
Minimax Ultralight built, flown, sold
Aeronca Champ Partial restore, flown, sold
RV9a built and flown - sold
RV7 built --- currently flying
Looking for "what's next" ...
Click to expand...
 
Testing is going well! Still trying to fix a nagging oil temperature problem--the cowl we designed has a lack of adequate airflow through the cooler, so we see temps around 215-220F. We want to see 180F. That might require a chin scoop of some kind. Here are some numbers that we've seen consistently.

Cruise at 2950 rpm (75% power)...............100 Knots TAS
Fuel consumption...................4-4.5 gph
Rate of Climb........................700 fpm
Empty weight.........................705 (no paint or wheel pants)
Takeoff distance..................... 700 feet without trying

These are observations at temperatures 80F and above, light winds, field elevation 800 feet, weight 1150-1200 lbs.

Here's a progress photo I just took of the -12 while flying alongside in our rebuilt Sun n Fun tornado-victim J230:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/AY9R5X2IQCnV2zrCLWwVig?feat=directlink

See you at OSH!
 
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It's not supposed to be a rocket ship-- simplicity, economy, and light weight with respectable performance are the goals for the 2200 firewall forward kit. These are conservative observations... more data to come as we refine propeller choices & cowl configurations and finish the fairing package. OSH will be its first extended cross-country, and then we will have some better speed & fuel burn numbers. The 2200-powered Jabiru 170 will fly chase with the -12 so the two can compare notes. ("Hey Clyde, what's your groundspeed? Ahhhhhh...." You know, the usual XC radio chatter. :rolleyes:)

For now, we're happy to have a pleasant little airplane that performs as well as our J170 S-LSA...exactly as Pete predicted. More info to come...
 
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ErichKeane said:
So the same burn rate at 300 fpm less climb, and 20kt less cruise? Might be worth looking into some sort of boost!
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It'll come when they install the 3300. I think the demand will be more for the 3300 than the 2200. All the reading I see here (to me anyways) is that this 2200/12 combo is just a test bed for future development.
 
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ErichKeane said:
So the same burn rate at 300 fpm less climb, and 20kt less cruise? Might be worth looking into some sort of boost!
Click to expand...

On the Van's site, the specs for cruise at 5000 rpm is 116 mph, or 100 knots. Our normal cruise is consistently 100-105 knots, burning 4 gph. Van also specifies 900 fpm at gross. We see 700 fpm on a hot day.

There are all kinds of delightful little airplanes out there with that kind of performance.
 
KatieB said:
On the Van's site, the specs for cruise at 5000 rpm is 116 mph, or 100 knots. Our normal cruise is consistently 100-105 knots, burning 4 gph. Van also specifies 900 fpm at gross. We see 700 fpm on a hot day.

There are all kinds of delightful little airplanes out there with that kind of performance.
Click to expand...

Hmm, 331RV does much better than those numbers. We cruise ~5000RPM at ~130+ mph (confirmed via GPS and pitot system), and burn less than 4.5 gph. We did our gross test for the PAP and were getting just more than 1100 fpm climb up until about 9000 Density Alt, then a little less than 1000 up to 12000 Density Alt.

Perhaps it was our wheel pants?

I think it is great that you're experimenting with a new engine, I think it is great to have this sort of alternatives available. I just would be surprised to see this sell when it isn't as competitive as the Rotax performance wise, and the Viking cost wise. I definitely look forward to hearing about a higher performance version.
 
Isn't the 2200 85hp? Wouldn't one expect to see slightly less performance from it?

I think it's great there is a cheaper option out there. what's the weight benefit of the 2200 vs 912? from the given empty weight: 30-60lbs?

those interested are going to have to look at all the numbers and decide for themselves which way to go.
 
RV-12

Yep, when I heard about Vans going into the light Sport market, I contacted
there powers at bee concerning there decesion to only use the UL engine.
I asked them about how Zenith designs there planes with different engine
supports of Continental, Lycoming & UL. They were agrorant to me! They
may have a good design aircraft but they need to use american aircraft
engines.
 
csmith3603 said:
Yep, when I heard about Vans going into the light Sport market, I contacted
there powers at bee concerning there decesion to only use the UL engine.
I asked them about how Zenith designs there planes with different engine
supports of Continental, Lycoming & UL. They were agrorant to me! They
may have a good design aircraft but they need to use american aircraft
engines.
Click to expand...

To what end? You really want a heavier, more expensive engine? People will start using American engines when the American companies get off their butt and start producing an engine in category that is competitive.

That is the reason I really like seeing the Viking and Jabiru work being done, SOMEONE needs to challenge the American manufacturers and convince them to stop selling us engines from the 1970's at 2x the price.
 
Thread drift...

Guys, this is a thread for the progress of the Jabiru installation in an RV-12. Can I ask that you please take your philosophical discussions of the state of the light aircraft engine industry to a new thread?

And for the record, Jabiru USA has been in the business of providing Jabiru engines and support for U.S. builders for 10 years...nearly 2,000 engines. We're a small company, but we do our best to keep our customers flying & happy.
 
Thank you very much Katie. Glad you intervened before someone closed this thread. I'll be by to see you at OSH. When will YOU be there?:) I'm interested in the installation.

Marshall Alexander
 
RV10Man said:
Thank you very much Katie. Glad you intervened before someone closed this thread. I'll be by to see you at OSH. When will YOU be there?:) I'm interested in the installation.

Marshall Alexander
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I will be in our main booth all week. Might sit at the LSA Mall some. Pete lets me out a few hours now n then to soak up the sights. :D
 
Oshkosh

Katie.
Could you give us an update on oshkosh?Pictures as well as performance to and from Oshkosh.
Thanks! Oren
 
orenjr said:
...could you give us an update on Oshkosh? Pictures as well as performance to and from Oshkosh. Thanks! Oren
Click to expand...

I have pictures but Katie will have to tell us about performance.

IMG_0012.jpg

IMG_0013.jpg

IMG_0014.jpg

IMG_0015.jpg

IMG_0016.jpg

IMG_0017.jpg

IMG_0019.jpg
 
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Hi Katie, and all Folks :)

I am reading this topic with big interest. Now, my RV12 tailcone is finished, and i am waiting for the wing kit :) I have question about pitot tube. Is it difficult to put pitot on the wing? What modyfications on the wing must be made? What i should to know before i start build my wings if i decide do move for Jabiru?
Performance is sligtly less impartant for me than price of the powerplant ;) so Jabiru is thing i can think about :)

Great work Katie ! :)

regards :)
 
Wing mounted Pitot tube

It should not be problem mounting the pitot tube on the wing. You could even buy Dynon's pitot tube that has AOA. Some type of tubing connector will be needed if the wings are to be removable.
Joe Gores
 
Thanks Joe, i hope so. I have no skills with this subject, so my question was. Because of the tube inside wing, i have to make decision before mounting wing skins. Am i right?

cheers
 
OSH in the history books!

So-- Oshkosh was long & tiring but fun. (It's always fun, isn't it?) It was very fun & inspiring to fly behind Pete in the RV-12. His airspeed read 99 knots indicated, 105 knots true most of the time in cruise. As I followed him, my true airspeed was usually more like 107. The little 2200 purred along, and the oil temperature settled down to about 205 in cruise. It took us about 6 hours of flight time to fly from Tennessee to OSH, weaving around a few showers in northern IL. The toughest part of the whole trip was hand-dragging the planes from the taxiway along 36 through "Conoco-Phillips Plaza" to our booth. One volunteer almost killed himself due to heat exhaustion while helping me push my airplane. If you're out there, thank you again! :eek:

The -12 had crowds around it all week. By the end of the second day, it became apparent that most builders want more power... (duh)... so we're going to investigate the option of using the 3300, with the help of an aeronautical engineer. Thanks to everyone who came by to see it and ask questions!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/akG95Rvknuznbdmvc8ZcZQ?feat=directlink

And by the way: The underwing pitot tube is included in our RV-12 firewall forward kit. It's very simple to install and utilizes the existing inspection hole cover under the wing for mounting and easy access. There is a simple connector in the line in the wing root area for easy wing removal.
 
Any word on the usage of a 3300? Also, what type of climb/fuel burn were you seeing with that engine?

Thanks for all the work you're doing, its a great asset to the community!
 
2200 Configuration Set

Sorry it's been so long since I've posted an update.

The final configuration for the RV-12 Jabiru 2200 firewall forward kit has been set. Pete made a few test hops yesterday to confirm that the new oil cooler inlet keeps the oil steadily at 180 degrees F. The inlet is a simple opening with no protruding scoop, so it still has the sleek look of the original. I've posted a short video on Picasa-- Turn on the speakers!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Of7xpTgT_2CcdE2NPn1L-A?feat=directlink

Our RV-12 will also be featured in next month's Kitplanes Magazine...

No word yet on the feasibility of the 3300-- will keep you updated on that. However, Pete averaged 750 fpm yesterday with a takeoff roll of about 500 feet with a light headwind (shown on the video). Normal cruise speed is 105 knots true at 4 gallons per hour. Flat-out cruise speed is 114 knots. The airplane weighs 705 empty with dual Grand Rapids Sport 8.4" EFIS screens, standard Van's interior, and no paint. If that's not worth a savings of $10K over the complex systems of a Rotax... :eek:


Thanks for the update Katie! dr​
 
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Kitplanes RV 12 article

Katie
Nice article on the Jabiru 2200. Looks like you are gettting very good performance. Am looking forward to results of the 3300. Let me know when I can get a cowling and oil cooler for my 3300.
Oren
 
Any updates, Katie?

I was over at Jay Pratt's RV-Central yesterday (T67) and he mentioned he had seen the article in Kitplanes last month. Until then, somehow I had missed this entire discussion and/or engine alternative!

When he said "hey, look at the REALLY IMPROVED looks of this RV-12" I started listening. After an evening of reviewing the article, along with this thread, I am really liking what I see. Very similar performance to the Rotax numbers, WAY improved looks, no problem with dual screens in the panel (more alternator power), direct drive engine, and $10,000 cheaper? Hey, I am really liking this as my front-runner right about now!

Any updates? Many thanks for the great info previously posted in this thread.
 
Sebring

Katie.. will Pete have the Jabiru powered RV-12 at Sebring? I see you guys are going to be there just wondering it it will be?

Thanks Carl
 
Thanks Gary! Hi Carl! And thank you for the praise, Jay Pratt! :D

Pete's RV-12 is currently without cowlings. The cowls went to our mold maker to have the final molds made. (We changed it a bit since the first test run, and added a small oil cooler inlet under the chin.) Pete hopes to have the cowling back late next week, so it won't be here in time to make it to Sebring. However, he'll probably fly it to Sun n Fun. I know he's been contemplating paint schemes for it, so maybe that will get done sometime this year as well. If you think it looks better now, just wait til that happens!

IMG_8411.JPG


Hi Oren, Pete said you'll just need to do a little glass work to extend the oil cooler inlet forward and make it bigger. The cooler is bigger and will be located further forward on the 3300. (Oren is using a highly modified airframe and the 3300-- looking forward to his performance data!)
 
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David Paule said:
Taildragger, by any chance?

Dave
Click to expand...

No, the front end is beefed up. The original builder of the structure passed away, otherwise I'd have asked him a long time ago how he did his structural analysis to support the extra torque and moment arm of the 3300. (I haven't heard anything about that from our engineer friend, by the way.)

Do you know of any -12 taildraggers? If you built one, would you call it an RV-12A just to confuse people? :)
 
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