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Jabiru RV-12 Update

Speed?

the 3300 will weigh more, go faster and climb better.

I guess I'm kinda mystified why anyone would be interested in building an LSA category aircraft and be concerned about going faster? Speed is not a design mission by LSA developers. Weight is for sure because it decides how much you can carry. Fuel efficiency is because it decides how long you can fly. Poor efficiency and you pay with fuel weight. As a rule, speed doesn't help fuel efficiency either. The use of Bing carbs (Rotax and Jabs) do not maximize fuel efficiency. At altitude both will reveal awful EGT's. Ross (RV6ejguy) has developed beautiful injection systems to replace both...at reasonable prices. I'm certain that Rotax and Jabiru both are satisfied with Bing since they both produce much better fuel burn than most American counterparts. To inject them would make a great product even better (always has). Better would mean more weight available and that's a worthy goal.
 
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Jetguy said:
Not to sound picky just adding to the fun debate while trapped in house during winter wonder land out side. We don't use a air box on the 12. Also for a comparison for katie when you weigh the nose when you are all done mine weigh 147lbs.:rolleyes:
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The airbox weighs just under 3 lbs. but rumor is that you lose a few hp by removing it.
 
Peterk said:
the 3300 will weigh more, go faster and climb better.

I guess I'm kinda mystified why anyone would be interested in building an LSA category aircraft and be concerned about going faster? Speed is not a design mission by LSA developers. Weight is for sure because it decides how much you can carry. Fuel efficiency is because it decides how long you can fly. Poor efficiency and you pay with fuel weight. As a rule, speed doesn't help fuel efficiency either. The use of Bing carbs (Rotax and Jabs) do not maximize fuel efficiency. At altitude both will reveal awful EGT's. Ross (RV6ejguy) has developed beautiful injection systems to replace both...at reasonable prices. I'm certain that Rotax and Jabiru both are satisfied with Bing since they both produce much better fuel burn than most American counterparts. To inject them would be make a great product even better (always has). Better would mean more weight available and that's a worthy goal.
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Higher engine weight reduces the useful load as I well know with my conversion but by using a 27 lb. prop, weight on the nosewheel is similar to Lycoming powered RVs with CS props and the C of G is similar as well. 30 lbs. or so up front with an already light prop on a -12 may require other solutions.

I'm not on here trying to sell anything but I do like to see people informed about the pros and cons of engine swaps. I also believe you should fly the engine of your choice after weighing (excuse the pun) the plus and minus points. If you don't fancy water cooled, high revving, geared engines, the Jabiru gives you another choice. If you end up not liking the Bing carb, there are other solutions.:)
 
To help you get over being mystified, some of us are old guys who used to have medicals and liked to go places far away in planes. Now we can't have our 200 mph four place planes any longer, but we still appreciate getting there faster. I quite agree with your post, and especially agree that a good fuel injection system on that Rotax would be a wonderful thing.

Peterk said:
the 3300 will weigh more, go faster and climb better.

I guess I'm kinda mystified why anyone would be interested in building an LSA category aircraft and be concerned about going faster? Speed is not a design mission by LSA developers. Weight is for sure because it decides how much you can carry. Fuel efficiency is because it decides how long you can fly. Poor efficiency and you pay with fuel weight. As a rule, speed doesn't help fuel efficiency either. The use of Bing carbs (Rotax and Jabs) do not maximize fuel efficiency. At altitude both will reveal awful EGT's. Ross (RV6ejguy) has developed beautiful injection systems to replace both...at reasonable prices. I'm certain that Rotax and Jabiru both are satisfied with Bing since they both produce much better fuel burn than most American counterparts. To inject them would be make a great product even better (always has). Better would mean more weight available and that's a worthy goal.
Click to expand...
 
Don

Well now that you put it that way...lol...I'm not mystified. Sounds like you need to be thinking about turbocharging, oxygen and a nice jet stream! All that aside I will be stunned if you don't fall in love with your 12 in spite of all the Barons etc we've all flown.

Pete (North Texas/Home of the Ice Queen)
 
Peterk said:
the 3300 will weigh more, go faster and climb better.

I guess I'm kinda mystified why anyone would be interested in building an LSA category aircraft and be concerned about going faster? Speed is not a design mission by LSA developers.
Click to expand...

I have a private pilots license with a current medical. Just looking for an easy build, storage off airport, reasonable operation costs, etc..
 
Additional Info...

Jabiru USA has been supporting Jabiru engines for builders of Zenith, Sonex, Kitfox, Rans, Titan, and others here in the U.S. for nearly 13 years. We are homebuilders ourselves-- Mostly RV-builders, with a Jabiru-powered Zenith, a Pitts and a Skybolt thrown in for variety. (We build composite LSAs for work-- Gotta do something different at home!)

No engine is indestructible-they require maintenance like any other aircraft engine. They need fresh high-octane fuel, periodic checks of head bolt torque (a simple task performed at each 50-hr oil change), and no unauthorized fuel or oil additives. Early solid-lifter engines also required valve adjustment. They got a bad rap early on because the early cooling ducts and cowl openings were too small to handle the 6-cylinder engine. That problem has been fixed for several years now in firewall-forward kits that we offer. Most people like them for their simplicity, reliability, economy, and sound.

For technical info, you can read the manuals online: http://www.jabiru.net.au/
 
But Katie, you forgot SMOOTHNESS of the 3300!
I was aware of cooling problems pervious owners had, mostly Sonex. Nice to know that problem has been pinned down and cured.
 
No offense, but...

that thing looks so tiny! My only experience has been with a Superior 360 and by comparison that deal looks miniature. My next build will likely have a Rotax so I guess I need to get used to the look of small.
 
KatieB said:
... Most people like them for their simplicity, reliability, economy, and sound. ...
Click to expand...

What about the sound? How does it compare to the Rotax? What about volume in the cockpit? More, less or the same as Rotax? I rode in a 12 a while back and although I loved everything about it, it was rather loud, I thought.
 
sound

diamond said:
What about the sound? How does it compare to the Rotax? What about volume in the cockpit? More, less or the same as Rotax? I rode in a 12 a while back and although I loved everything about it, it was rather loud, I thought.
Click to expand...

If you go to our Facebook page here http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jabiru-USA-Sport-Aircraft/132969510046857?ref=search&v=wall

scroll down the page, and on the left side you'll see a video called "S-19 Victory Pass." That's the 6-cyl. The 4-cyl 2200 is similar, but not so meaty...

I've only flown behind a Rotax a few times, so I can't really compare the in-cockpit sound. The airframe has a lot to do with it-- I know in a low wing composite Lightning, you can talk to someone next to you with no headset on while the 3300 is at cruise power, but that's a tightly sealed airplane. The main difference is that you don't have a gearbox in the Jab, and your'e running at an engine RPM more than a Lycoming but much less than a Rotax. I think it sounds sort of Cirrus-like.

Yes Sam, I get that Possum look quite often!!
 
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Cyld. Heads

As Ross mentioned earlier Rotec( Australia) have developed a water cooled head assembly for the Jabiru Egine which in tests so far have proved excellent as here In Hot Oz when have some huge Ground & Air temps which have caused some Headaches & Probs. these replacement heads are still under development & Testing But may well prove to bullett proof the Engine.:)
 
Wow!

Water cooled heads man what a concept!:eek:

Ok ok I was just kidding I coudnt resist.:rolleyes:
Please forgive me for the low blow.:D
 
Cabin noise

Katie...they all sound like a Cirrus with a set of Zulu's. You should throw those in with your engine package...lol
 
Peterk said:
Katie...they all sound like a Cirrus with a set of Zulu's. You should throw those in with your engine package...lol
Click to expand...

OK, ya got me there. ;) They spoil me here occasionally.

How's this: According to the Jabiru Australia website (www.jabiru.net.au), the 2200 has been measured at 62 dB in a 1000' AGL full-power flyover. This was in a Jabiru aircraft equipped with the stock stainless muffler.
 
Quietness

My 912ULS is so quiet....when I do flybys I have to honk to get people off the runway! lol
 
I've read that many places over in Europe they have strict dB requirements for aircraft, so the 912 should be quiet. It's more of a quality difference... ;-)
 
oops, sorry i never got anything it might have been filtered out. first time that has happened in along time...
but i got your PM, thanks. sent an email on to the guy you recommended
 
Cowl

Interesting. How did they decide the cowl shape without accessorizing the engine? There's a lot of big stuff...radiator, muffler, oil can etc. Just curious.
 
The guys hung the engine and attached the muffler, tail pipe and fiberglass cooling ducts at the cowl shop. They also mounted the spinner onto the prop flange so they can use it to shape the nose bowl. The biggest pain turned out to be the starter cable-- they put a spacer on top of that to give it adequate clearance. The mags and and starter are already in place on the engine and the alternator is built into the flywheel assembly. We'd like to keep the chin area clean so the oil cooler will be mounted inside the cowl similar to the Arion Lightning. The battery box, airbox, fuel pump, cabin heat box, gascolator, etc (and I"m sure there are other things I'm forgetting) go on the firewall. There's no oil can or radiator to worry about on the Jab. ;)
 
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Oil pressure sensor location

I recently downloaded the Skyview installation documants just in case Vans does approve the Skyview in place of the Flight Deck. Dynon are quite clear that the sensor should NOT be mounted on the engine. They prefer a remote location for the sensor. On the engine or some place else? Not much room for comprise.
Henry
NM, RV-12
lucien said:
One of my 912 mechanics says all the time that the only true enemy of the Rotax is its owner/operator. And I think he's exactly right about that since, when left alone and installed/operated the way Rotax specifies, it gives no trouble. Also, the 912 series is NOT new technology anymore; in fact, it's one of the highest selling engines of all time now and has one of the best reliability records you can find in an aircraft engine.

So, all that said, there's nothing wrong with the location of the oil pressure sensor as-is - the engine will go to TBO and beyond giving no trouble with the sensor right where it is, so I'd suggest leaving it alone for reliability and long life and following the manuals to the letter.

I would also suggest that Vans knew what they were doing when they made the few alterations to the motor that they have, so it's probably a good idea to give their methods a chance before substituting them for you own.

Not an RV12 builder, just a very satisfied long-term Rotax user,

LS
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Oil Sensor

Like others, I have moved my sensor to the firewall...an easy mod and it certainly has no effect on the engine itself. The reason I did was because the beginning location is next to the gearbox and your oil pressure readings on the Dynon jump all over the place...most likely due to vibration. After I moved it, the readings stay rock-solid.
 
Cowling

KatieB said:
The guys hung the engine and attached the muffler, tail pipe and fiberglass cooling ducts at the cowl shop. They also mounted the spinner onto the prop flange so they can use it to shape the nose bowl. The biggest pain turned out to be the starter cable-- they put a spacer on top of that to give it adequate clearance. The mags and and starter are already in place on the engine and the alternator is built into the flywheel assembly. We'd like to keep the chin area clean so the oil cooler will be mounted inside the cowl similar to the Arion Lightning. The battery box, airbox, fuel pump, cabin heat box, gascolator, etc (and I"m sure there are other things I'm forgetting) go on the firewall. There's no oil can or radiator to worry about on the Jab. ;)
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Katie, any chance they put any "structure" into the cowling to allow for quarter turns instead of hinges? Maybe a weight issue, maybe not

Pete
 
joedallas said:
dzus fasteners 1/4 turn
You have my Vote
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Hi Joe! Our plane will probably use the piano hinges to keep it closer to stock. I am not real familiar with the innards of Dzus fittings, but we use Camlocs here alot. Here are some pictures of a camloc installation in the Lightning cowling. The receptacles are riveted and epoxied in place on the inside of the lower cowl joggle. (The joy of E-AB...)

https://picasaweb.google.com/katie.bosman/MiscPhotos?feat=directlink
 
KatieB said:
Hi Joe! Our plane will probably use the piano hinges to keep it closer to stock. I am not real familiar with the innards of Dzus fittings, but we use Camlocs here alot. Here are some pictures of a camloc installation in the Lightning cowling. The receptacles are riveted and epoxied in place on the inside of the lower cowl joggle. (The joy of E-AB...)

https://picasaweb.google.com/katie.bosman/MiscPhotos?feat=directlink
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Dzus (pronounced Zooss) is a proprietary name for a type of quarter-turn fastener often used to secure skin panels on aircraft.

It was invented by a native Ukrainian William Dzus (Volodymyr Dzhus) in the early 1930s.



Same thing I think
Take a look at this Link

FAA Approved for Aircraft Use Under TSO-C-148A
the 4000 Series

www.milspecproducts.com/

Thanks and good luck with your Projects
 
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Ok, I just didn't wnat this thread to slip to far back...last pic was mid-feb so the wings must be close to done by now????

Bob
 
Sun n Fun!

Hey Guys,

Sorry it's been a while since the last update. Once we realized our finish kit would never arrive in time to fly the -12 to Sun n Fun, things slowed down a bit and our attention became focused on getting other planes done in time to fly to the show. Pete and the boys have been slowly wiring and arranging things on the firewall of the -12. There are many things we just can't do until the finish kit gets here, so we're a little stuck for now. (Yes, wings are all finished, too.)

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bT_0BcDNsulW9BLacatHPw?feat=directlink

The plan is to trailer the fuselage to Sun n Fun to show you the cowls, engine mount and firewall setup. We'll also have most of the GRT instrument panel installed. Unfortunately we don't even have landing gear, so the fuselage will be on engine boxes in our booth. Not ideal, but it's something.

Anyway, I look forward to meeting anyone interested in seeing & talking about our progress in the Jabiru USA booth, located between the FAA media building and the Sunset Grill! (Booth LD-004) Pete will also be there to answer questions.
 
Katie, that looks great! I'll probably get shot for this, but the RV-12's "face" ie the configuration of cooling vents in the cowl, has always been the greatest disappointment of the design to me. Kind of shocked, a bit as if the poor thing has been goosed! Your Jabiru cowl however, looks like a real RV.
 
I too love the looks of that cowling. Its gonna make the whole plane look better.









Brad Stiefvater
N124BJ (first customer built to fly)
 
spin said:
Katie, that looks great! I'll probably get shot for this, but the RV-12's "face" ie the configuration of cooling vents in the cowl, has always been the greatest disappointment of the design to me. Kind of shocked, a bit as if the poor thing has been goosed! Your Jabiru cowl however, looks like a real RV.
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I have to agree with this, the cowing does look better. :D
 
My favorite part are circuit breakers vice the fuses and metal switches vice plastic. Can't wait to see it at Sun N Fun. Those switches and breakers look like a good post E-LSA cert mod.
 
FiveNinerTIM said:
Katie - Will the pitot tube for the Jab installation still come through the spinner?
Thank you
Click to expand...

The Jabiru is a direct drive engine (no reduction drive). There is no way to run the pitot through the crankshaft. i.e. Pitot will have to be somewhere else. (Outside the prop blast)
 
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Pitot In Wing

Mel said:
The Jabiru is a direct drive engine (no reduction drive). There is no way to run the pitot through the crankshaft. i.e. Pitot will have to be somewhere else.
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I talked to Pete at Jabiru he said it will be in the wing with a Disconnect.
 
Not Sure

Peterk said:
hmmm....cosmetics vrs performance and empty weight? Not sure I follow that one. Please don't tell me there are mirrors in the cockpit too...lol.

Pete
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Pete
I not sure but Cosmetics and saving 10K and a less fuel consumption and cruse the same or better.

Or a Faster clime rate?

My View Less is More
 
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