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Deltahawkengines

Deuskid said:
To answer your question, I would guestimate that it would be ~ $9,000 - $12,000. Considerably less than a certified for a superior engine.
Click to expand...
Aren't Subaru engines available in the $5k range? I seem to remember reading that people love their Egg-Sub engines but they can end up costing over $30k.

Given that most of the owners I've seen quoted, report their alternate engine ended up costing them as much or more than a lyc would've, your $12k seems optimistic at best. Do you know something that they didn't?

I think many (including some automotive manufacturers) have gone down this road before you and so far, none have been able to make it cost-effective. Should it be so surprising then that most people are reluctant to get behind the idea? If this were 1901 I wouldn't have gotten behind Wilbur and Orville either.
 
Alternative engines

Deuskid said:
...But it would seem there isn't much interest. Too bad.
Click to expand...
I think you are misreading the sentiments. Anyone who has been around aviation has heard about the next best engine dozens of times over the past few years. Very few ever move out of the idea phase. Most pilots are conservative, skeptical, and risk averse. These are excellent qualities in a pilot, but probably not in an entrepreneur. To win over this market you simply have to get a lot of engines flying, in addition to producing more power, use less fuel, more reliable, cost less, weigh less...
 
joe gremlin said:
Aren't Subaru engines available in the $5k range? I seem to remember reading that people love their Egg-Sub engines but they can end up costing over $30k.

Given that most of the owners I've seen quoted, report their alternate engine ended up costing them as much or more than a lyc would've, your $12k seems optimistic at best. Do you know something that they didn't?

I think many (including some automotive manufacturers) have gone down this road before you and so far, none have been able to make it cost-effective. Should it be so surprising then that most people are reluctant to get behind the idea? If this were 1901 I wouldn't have gotten behind Wilbur and Orville either.
Click to expand...

To Joe and RV8ch... both...

ya, it might be a 'pipe dream'... most strives for innovation are. Of course when IBM and MS were talking about unseating Apple ppl thought they were crazy, When Walmart talked about unseating Sears.. same thing... When Airlines talked about unseating rail and ships.. same...

Lets say a diesel does cost $30k. Would you rather have an engine that burns 40% less fuel.. fuel that costs less, runs much closer to optimal rpms, doesn't have any ignition components to fail, no vapor lock worries, and lasts longer between rebuilds or 'tried and true' for the same cost?

Yeah, it might not work, yes, it'll be an effort to make it happen [but at least 2 companies in Europe [one bringing a plant to London On Can] have already made it happen] but the potential makes it worth examining. There are millions of similar engines functioning right now all over the world. The technology exists - only they sit in cars and boats not planes. It isn't 'theory' it is simply some known engineering along with plumbing questions needing to be addressed.

It is a chicken and egg thing. Manufacturers need a maket to sell their product. When they run into brick walls [closed minds] they decide not to make what someone won't even consider buying. I'm smiling right now thinking of how 80 years ago a bunch of bi-plane pilots were standing around watching a new fart building a 'crazy plane design' saying to themselves... 'nope, I'M NOT gonna get in a plane with only one wing... why would you even want to?.... :eek:............. lol

I say this with no malice whatsoever.... I take your comments with the same - I'm certain you are genuine in your observations. 3 years ago I bought my first TDI [i'm driving my second right now]. I've heard all the comments about auto diesels [dirty, problem prone, hard to find fuel...] none of them are true. The same is true for aircraft... I KNOW because I've lived it. I didn't know squat about diesels but decided to research them with an open mind and learned that they aren't the engines of even 20 years ago.

Now, perhaps it isn't practical to be a 'one off' D4D powered aircraft. I'd agree with you on that. but if only 30-50 of the ~ 2,000 new experimentals [there is a thread on how many engines now running] and replacement engines were to use diesel then in just a few years it would be as common as canards and RVs are today.

It doesn't take tons of engineering or technology...only open-minded flyers [why is it that 56% of all new cars sold in europe last year were diesels?... think because they are inferior to 50 year old gas technology?.. or even inferior to current gasser technology?... i think not...]

Cheers,

John
 
Deuskid said:
Would you rather have an engine that burns 40% less fuel.. fuel that costs less, runs much closer to optimal rpms, doesn't have any ignition components to fail, no vapor lock worries, and lasts longer between rebuilds or 'tried and true' for the same cost?
Click to expand...

What fuel costs less?
 
Jet-A cost less than 100LL? What FBO do you shop at? My experience has been that Jet-A is almost always more expensive than 100LL. Diesel can probably be had for less than jet or 100ll but it's unlikely you'll find it available at many airports so you'll have to tank it and truck it to the airport yourself everytime you fuel the airplane. Are you adding the cost of a truck and tank into your final cost figures? Plus anytime you need fuel away from your home field you'll be back to paying top dollar for jet-a.

Also could you educate me a bit on the 40% less fuel burn figure? I'll be the first to admit that I don't know anything about the engineering of engine design but it seems hard to believe that you can expect the same performance on 40% less fuel. The old can't get something for nothing phrase comes to mind. What's the trade off?
 
Deuskid said:
diesel, bioD/diesel blend, Jet-A

John
Click to expand...


Most places I have flown in to lately the Jet A is $.05 or more higher than avgas. I have not seen a diesel pump at any airport.

This is somewhat a problem from the standpoint of saving cost on fuel.

From my investigations into diesel power in the past I agree:

They use significantly less GPH, Better MPG etc

Initial cost is probably a little less and reman/rebuild is significantly less.

At your home base you can buy and store agricultural diesel (non highway)
for fillups at home and over the course of a year maybe save some money but on the road you are most likely gonna have to purchase jet A.

Bio Diesel is a great option but I do not want my plane smelling like a chinese or mexican restaurant and once again it is most likely only an option when filling up at home.

I believe all of the deltahawk is supercharged and will develop fu;ll HP at altitude getting into the flutter range again.

I have never seen or heard a Deltahawk fly but I have also never seen a diesel that did not vibrate worse than gas and thaT WASN'T REALLY LOUD.

Don't get me wrong I think a diesel is a great idea you just have to understand that along with the benefits come some drawbacks.
 
For those sincerely interested in understanding the current state of small diesel technology I'd recommend joining this forum: TDIclub.com. It will give you a wealth of information re: small diesel engine attributes.

3 years ago I was totally ignorant of diesels and so began research. 2 years ago I bought my first diesel I'm now researching experimental aircraft and just as ignorant of that subject as I was of diesels then.

Remember before you had your PPL and had never flown? That is how little I know of flying right now. I've been told dozens of times in several forums that the best way for me to learn is to begin. Begin flying. Begin building. Not just read about it - do it.

I'd make the same recommendation to you all about diesels. If you are sincerely interested and open minded then go to a VW dealership and drive a TDI or a Mercedes dealership [unfortunately right now Honda, Toyota, and many other diesels aren't in the states [and the best VW and MBs aren't] because of political reasons]. After you spend 1/2 hour around a current [almost state of the art] REAL small diesel then many of the comments I have heard in this thread will be dispelled [as will many misperceptions].

They may be 1-2% noisier [these ain't like the diesels in American pick-ups, believe me]. They have no more vibration. They are inheriently more fuel efficient [about 30-40%] and provide more torque and peak torque at much lower rpms. For a gasser to match a diesel [same physical size and hp] it has to 'wind out' at about 2x the rpms. Which do you think is louder and vibrates more in real world use?

Interestingly, of all who have disagreed with me not one.... no one... has had any experience - but only opinion of diesels. The only fact any have offered has been the cost of fuel and that was my error because I didn't satisfactorly sepearate each type of fuel and speak to each individually. I appologize for that blunder [if you pay the same per gallon and burn 35% less... which is cheaper to use?..]

I can't give you experience. I can share mine. I can explain the facts. You must take it from there.

My father [I'm 50, this was when I was a kid] told me... "If you are repeating yourself, you are arguing"...

I don't want to argue.

You may dismiss diesels.

I am not convenienced that you are doing so with a rational basis given what has been presented here so far.

After you've done a bit of research and / or gone and seen a diesel of the type I'm recommending I'll believe you will have and I'll gladly discuss them. Rational, logical, experienced individuals - that is what I thought pilots prided themselves in being [along with a streak of daring :D ]

Right now, I feel this thread has begun to chase its tail.

I hope that this incites some to look into diesels. If it does then it will have been a sucess.

Best to all,

John

edit for spelling [I can't spel wurth spit...]
 
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N395V said:
I believe all of the deltahawk is supercharged and will develop fu;ll HP at altitude getting into the flutter range again.
Click to expand...

It's dual charged, but not turbo normalized. Its primary source of manifold pressure is the turbocharger, it also has a supercharger that provides pressure on startup and serves as backup in case of turbo failure (50% "limp home" power).

It develops max HP at sea level and in the test vs IO-360 it had about equal TAS vs RPM.

PDF chart here

As for vibration, I guess the V4 config and higher compression makes for a bigger jolt, but since it's a two stroke the frequency might be higher. Little point in speculating, only practical experience could tell you.
 
Jet A IS cheaper

I just did a search on Airnav.com for local fuel prices around Pensacola and Jet A was almost always cheaper, substantially in most cases, 15-30 cents per gallon. I guess it matters where you live and how much Jet A a particular place sells. I know one place that sells so much Jet A that they stopped selling 100LL all together, Florala AL 0J4.
 
diesel engine

I have been looking at diesel cars for quite some time and would love to have a diesel VW Passat if they made it with a manual here in the US. Diesel used to cost about the same as regular but now is more than $1.00 higher in this area. This takes away a lot of the appeal. Still the diesel should have less maintenance and longer life than a gas engine. For a long time I was rooting for the Egg Subaru, liked the "modern" engine. I think Jan has done an excellent job with it and worked through a lot of early teething problems. Cost initially was looking good but now is up even with a Lyc. I am still following the DHawk but again price keeps creeping up. If someone does a firewall forward and a few dozen actually get airborne I will look more seriously. Starting with an automotive engine in my opinion will not save you the money you think it will. It will be the same cost as the Sub, but with better fuel efficiency. The DHawk will already be there with planes flying so will have a big % of the market. At this point I think I will go with a mid time 0-360. I am convinced that I want a RV7, CS prop, TW with a slider. I got the TW endorsement this summer. I am going to take the sport air class this spring. Just got to pull the trigger now.

John
 
john kelley said:
I have been looking at diesel cars for quite some time and would love to have a diesel VW Passat if they made it with a manual here in the US. Diesel used to cost about the same as regular but now is more than $1.00 higher in this area. This takes away a lot of the appeal. Still the diesel should have less maintenance and longer life than a gas engine. For a long time I was rooting for the Egg Subaru, liked the "modern" engine. I think Jan has done an excellent job with it and worked through a lot of early teething problems. Cost initially was looking good but now is up even with a Lyc. I am still following the DHawk but again price keeps creeping up. If someone does a firewall forward and a few dozen actually get airborne I will look more seriously. Starting with an automotive engine in my opinion will not save you the money you think it will. It will be the same cost as the Sub, but with better fuel efficiency. The DHawk will already be there with planes flying so will have a big % of the market. At this point I think I will go with a mid time 0-360. I am convinced that I want a RV7, CS prop, TW with a slider. I got the TW endorsement this summer. I am going to take the sport air class this spring. Just got to pull the trigger now.

John
Click to expand...

Look at the A5 [current] Jetta tdi [imported beginning 2005 model year]. It is comparable in size to the B4 Passat [the last TDI Passat in the US [I owned one of those before the A3 I now own]]. I think you'll be pleased with the new Jetta's size. it comes in manual [I'm only interested in manuals myself so the current Passant is a non-issue for me].

Saving money on the front end isn't my primary concern - Total cost is.

I know diesels will be more efficent vis a vis fuel consumption. I know diesels will be less problem prone vis a vis fewer moving parts and no ignition parts. I know it will be safer vis a vis no vapor lock possible. I know auto diesels are already set up to use [and come with] turbos [making them fuction well at altitude]. I know it will be cheaper to replace vis a vis 100s of thousands of auto diesels on the market due to them being employed in autos.

If is costs the same on the front end, costs less to operate, requires less to maintain and costs less to replace I'm a happy VERY camper.

Gotta look at total cost, not just front end cost. Diesels are low hangin' ripe fruit waiting to be plucked.

John
 
Deuskid said:
of all who have disagreed with me not one.... no one... has had any experience
John
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really? for someone who prides themself on research, you haven't done your homework very well in this regard.

everything you've said re aviation engines/diesels/market up to this point is incorrect, but i'll give you credit for being a devout tdi fan and highly enthusiastic.
 
ship said:
really? for someone who prides themself on research, you haven't done your homework very well in this regard.

everything you've said re aviation engines/diesels/market up to this point is incorrect, but i'll give you credit for being a devout tdi fan and highly enthusiastic.
Click to expand...

Ship:

1] Please share your personal experiences and knowledge of current small diesel technology.

2] Please explain where I have been wrong about diesels.

3] Please explain what you mean about 'market up'. This is a term unfamilar to me.

4] I readily admitted I'm ignorant of things aviation in my earlier posts. I don't recall giving information re: aircraft engines. I've repeated generalizations of what others have stated but please clarify what I have said was wrong. [btw, anything said about aircraft engines was only in relation to diesels which is the focus of this thread].

5] Ship, do the above and you do the forum a service. Only saying I'm 'wrong' on everything is simply a personal attack upon me and serves no one. It is like standing in the doorway, tossing a hand gernade into a crowded room and running.... doesn't do a whole lot for the party....

Cheers,

John
 
Interestingly, of all who have disagreed with me not one.... no one... has had any experience - but only opinion of diesels.
Click to expand...

I really do not think anyone is disagreeing with you. More just having a discussion about the pros and cons of the issue from our various perspectives.

My perspectives come from looking long and hard at a Deltahawk in a Velocity and from having several diesels in farm vehicles, 2 pickups and two in my boat. Currently in these applications they are superior to gas engines.

One day they may be ready to take over the exp market. At this point though I do not think they offer significant benefit (long or short term) over traditional gas aircraft engines. I do think Deltahawk will be the first with the most in the air and appears to have a good product. Velocity appears convinced of this by offering their engine as an option.
 
Someone may have made this point already about 56% if sales in Europe being diesels in cars, but here goes anyway. I was seriously looking at a VW TDI in some form. The gas mileage is very good and the performance is fine. I also drove a Toyota Corolla which is gas but gets a little over 40 MPG and is considerably less money. Trying to get my wife to pump diesel in a car while standing in a greasy mess where trucks and farmers fill up would never happen so I abandoned the idea. I then found out that in Europe gas is around $6.00 per gallon and diesel is around $2.50 at least at the time I checked. I firmly believe that if gas was $2.50 a gallon over there you would see very few diesels just like here in the US. With gas being $6.00 a gallon I can see why people would look to diesel engines for their airplanes too. I'm not saying that a diesel in not a good choice, just that we're not apples to apples when looking at what Europe is doing. This is just my opinion coming from just enough research to get me flamed. :D
 
Diesel prices

rv9aviator said:
... I then found out that in Europe gas is around $6.00 per gallon and diesel is around $2.50 at least at the time I checked. I firmly believe that if gas was $2.50 a gallon over there you would see very few diesels just like here in the US. ...
Click to expand...
Gas and diesel prices in Europe still vary by country. For example, in France diesel is about 25% cheaper than gasoline, so there are a lot of very stinky diesel cars in France. In Switzerland, diesel is about 5% more expensive than gasoline, so there are a lot fewer diesel cars. Humans are pretty much the same everywhere - they do a bit of math and decide what's best for their wallet.

That said, when I travel and rent a Hertzmobile, in France it's almost always a diesel. The first time I got one I went back to the desk to complain and get a gasoline powered car. They didn't have any, so I was forced to drive the diesel. It was the first time I'd driven one, and I was shocked at how well it performed. Before that, you could not have paid me to own a diesel - an opinion based on pure ignorance. My father-in-law has a diesel BMW, and it is clean, powerful, efficient, and quiet (from the inside). A really nice car!

I would have no problem buying a modern diesel.
 
N395V said:
I really do not think anyone is disagreeing with you. More just having a discussion about the pros and cons of the issue from our various perspectives.

My perspectives come from looking long and hard at a Deltahawk in a Velocity and from having several diesels in farm vehicles, 2 pickups and two in my boat. Currently in these applications they are superior to gas engines.

One day they may be ready to take over the exp market. At this point though I do not think they offer significant benefit (long or short term) over traditional gas aircraft engines. I do think Deltahawk will be the first with the most in the air and appears to have a good product. Velocity appears convinced of this by offering their engine as an option.
Click to expand...

Are the 2 tractors and the 2 boats turbos and either Pumpe Duce or Continious Rail injection? If they aren't then they aren't comparible [I'm guessing they aren't].

When I made the comment: "all who have disagreed with me not one.... no one... has had any experience - but only opinion of diesel"...

No one had said they have actually seen, heard, drove the engines I am recommending [but they didn't seem to approve of them]. I'm hearing comments based upon opinions that don't reflect reality. They aren't noisy. They aren't dirty [in fact the current TDI at idle puts out 1/3 the polutants that a burning cigarrette exhausts]. They have excellent fuel economy. Last longer...all I've said it before...BUT

Posters are offering these opinions without any experience. In that same post [and the reason I made the observation in it] was to 'set the stage' for the invitation:

'go drive one, listen to it, feel how its power curve feels, get some hands on experience. Take one on a highway with a steep hill and feel how the torque allows it to pass gassers with much bigger engines [my miata runs at about 5k rpm @ 70 mph, my TDI runs at about 2,750 rpms at 70 mph [I don't drive that slow in either tho... :rolleyes: ...]

I made the first comment to suggest the second. It seems like a simple enough way to gain some experience. It would take an hour to have it. IF I'm correct your perceptions will change, you'll have a paradigm shift :) ...

try it... you'll like it...

John
 
rv9aviator said:
Someone may have made this point already about 56% if sales in Europe being diesels in cars, but here goes anyway. I was seriously looking at a VW TDI in some form. The gas mileage is very good and the performance is fine. I also drove a Toyota Corolla which is gas but gets a little over 40 MPG and is considerably less money. Trying to get my wife to pump diesel in a car while standing in a greasy mess where trucks and farmers fill up would never happen so I abandoned the idea. I then found out that in Europe gas is around $6.00 per gallon and diesel is around $2.50 at least at the time I checked. I firmly believe that if gas was $2.50 a gallon over there you would see very few diesels just like here in the US. With gas being $6.00 a gallon I can see why people would look to diesel engines for their airplanes too. I'm not saying that a diesel in not a good choice, just that we're not apples to apples when looking at what Europe is doing. This is just my opinion coming from just enough research to get me flamed. :D
Click to expand...

It was I who made that point. Diesel and gas are about the same price in europe [just like here on our roads].

Diesel has ~ 10% more btus over RUL per gallon [more still if alcohol is added to the gas]. Diesels are 20-30% more fuel efficient [for the same size engine] by their nature. They last longer and have fewer maintenance issue. In europe [like here] the buyer pays a premium to buy a diesel over gassers.

Still > 50% of buyers do because they are better to own over the life of the auto. Their diesels are better than our auto diesels because the big 3 used congress to skew our EPA rules to be 'anti diesel' and the trucking industry lobbied congress to postpone using Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel here for 5 years [europe had it earlier so auto mfg. have better diesels there now]. ULSD will be here July 2006 :D

Bottom line it isn't the cost of fuel motivating europeans ... it is educated consumers being offered alternative products and choosing that which provides the best value to fulfill their needs [even though it costs them a bit more on the front end of their purchase].

Cheers,

John
 
What's dissapointing about DeltaHawk (eggenfellner too) is all these dopes decide that they need to sell their engines for the same price as a new Lycoming. In Eggenfellner's case, his engine is more reasonably priced but then you have to buy the $9000 MT propellor.

IMHO there is NO 200HP engine that is worth anywhere near $30,000. Not Lycoming, Continental, Eggenfellner, Deltahawk, Minstrel or GiddyYap Inc. That being said, most of us shell out the bucks for the Lyc. 'cause we know it's easy to install and is going to work. I guess Deltahawk is counting on their forthcoming certification to make them "legit" and worth the $30something thousand they're asking. Then again, certification really only gauruntees that they're as good as a crummy old lycoming, which isn't saying much at all.

LOL....that being said, I'll have a lycoming going in my plane until such time that these alternatives have something more to offer than no mixture control and maybe better fuel economy. I have no intention of funding someone's R&D and test flying they're stuff at the same time. Offer me something under $20,000 that outperforms a Lyc, and NOW we have something to talk about.
 
One thing Ive been wondering about during this discussion- is it possible to convert a Mazda rotary to run on diesel/kerosene? The differences in compression could be partially compensated by turbo/supercharging :rolleyes:
 
I own a '97 VW Jetta TDI, 165K miles

One thought on the cars (off-topic) part of this thread. Someone mentioned to me once that "people drive torque but they buy horsepower."

My Jetta TDI has plenty of get up and go, and can even accelerate well at highway speeds but will never win a 1/4 mile. Not that I ever drag race the 1/4 mile. But, I know lots of people who laugh when I tell them my car has 90 HP; then I tell them I get 41-44 mpg.

On the topic of Deltahawk - as a diesel fan, I thought it would be nice if, I say again, if they had a FWF package for the listed price.

Regards, Paul
 
parashak said:
On the topic of Deltahawk - as a diesel fan, I thought it would be nice if, I say again, if they had a FWF package for the listed price.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I don't think anyone really doubts the performance potential, it's not about BSFCs, pound-feet or anything like that. It's about money, time, sweat and how that measures up against a Lyc for someone who wants to get up and go. :)
 
Deuskid said:
Are the 2 tractors and the 2 boats turbos and either Pumpe Duce or Continious Rail injection? If they aren't then they aren't comparible [I'm guessing they aren't].

When I made the comment: "all who have disagreed with me not one.... no one... has had any experience - but only opinion of diesel"...

Posters are offering these opinions without any experience.

John
Click to expand...
What makes you think none of this has been looked at by engine developers?

Why do you assume the "posters" don't have experience in diesels or aviation engine development?

I'm deeply involved in diesels for aviation. I also own a TDI. Are my posts qualified?

The 1st diesel flew in 1930's...made by Packard. The dialogue you are trying to "start" has been "done" many years ago and continues to this day.

The flaw in your argument is that the people working on diesel aircraft engines already know about everything out there, including the technology from VW, BMW, Toyota, Izuzu, Kubota, Mercedes in addition to components from every major mfr. incl Bosch, Denso, etc. etc.

You correctly identify the TDI as sophisticated diesel technology, but you're advocating a solution to a problem that doesnt exist, ie. "noise and emmissions" have nothing to do with people "accepting" diesels in aviation.

ps: I love my TDI but BMW is the current state-of-the-art for automotive diesels. Now if they'd only sell them here.... :cool:
 
I'm a fan of the Zoche 2-stroke diesel radials. They (are about to) make a 150
hp version and a 300 hp version that can be derated to 200hp. But they aren't
shipping anything yet. Bummer, because I think an RV-7 would look really cool
with a round cowl full of cylinders. :D

I've kept my eye on DH for a while. I like where they're going, and the
ability to fly out of a grass strip on rarefied bacon grease or old drums
of Soviet jet fuel is kind of neat.

But I agree with the earlier post. 200hp ain't worth no 30+k, especially
with the low TBO and the general weirdity of the staged charging thing.
Basically, you're carrying that big roots-type blower around just to start
your engine, as well as your starter. Maybe they were just being
conservative, but aren't there easier ways to get compression-ignition
going than that?
 
I wish them luck.

It's really hard to seal up a rotary tight enough to sustain
compression-ignition. If you look at the car stats, the
n/a engines are the ones that run for 200,000 miles and
it's the turbos and twin turbos that have problems. The
apex seals and the side housings are the weak link.
lots more opportunity for compression leakage than in
a piston engine. The Mistral engines are basically
Mazda 13b's with some custom parts. Unless they've
found a way to fundamentally alter the way the trochoidal
chamber is sealed, then I wouldn't trust it until it had
safely proven itself.

Not knocking the rotary, one of my engine scenarios
involves a N/A renesis.

Sorry for the topic drift.

mlw450802 said:
I believe Mistral is working exactly on that!
http://www.mistral-engines.com/

-mike
Click to expand...
 
John,
Not knocking the Zoche, but where are you getting your information? The most recent date I see on the Zocke website references January 1995!!
Is Zoche even still in business?

Tobin
 
ship said:
What makes you think none of this has been looked at by engine developers?

Why do you assume the "posters" don't have experience in diesels or aviation engine development?

I'm deeply involved in diesels for aviation. I also own a TDI. Are my posts qualified?

The 1st diesel flew in 1930's...made by Packard. The dialogue you are trying to "start" has been "done" many years ago and continues to this day.

The flaw in your argument is that the people working on diesel aircraft engines already know about everything out there, including the technology from VW, BMW, Toyota, Izuzu, Kubota, Mercedes in addition to components from every major mfr. incl Bosch, Denso, etc. etc.

You correctly identify the TDI as sophisticated diesel technology, but you're advocating a solution to a problem that doesnt exist, ie. "noise and emmissions" have nothing to do with people "accepting" diesels in aviation.

ps: I love my TDI but BMW is the current state-of-the-art for automotive diesels. Now if they'd only sell them here.... :cool:
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you've written above [except I believe the Packard first flew in '29...]... I make that assumption from the statements other posters have made.

I also know BMW, Honda, Toyota... even VW have better diesels than the TDI - I've stated that in an earlier post of mine and also stated the reasons we don't have them in the US. To repeat myself, Toyota has this dandy new 280 hp D4D that is simply sweet... ideal for an experimental application

You certainly sound qualified... most of the posters are critizing diesels when they haven't driven one and are making judgements based on over the road trucks, heavy equipment and 70s GM technology.

I'm advocating they go and drive a TDI or MB or try and find a Jeep Liberty with CR. If noise and emmissions have nothing to do with aviation why is it sited in their posts as problems they have with diesels? I'm addressing issues others have raised.

I too believe diesels have been looked at by developers and manufacturers. What is needed are consumers. I'm trying to introduce the concept and incite some interest. I believe if potential consumers were well informed demand would give developers and manufacturers reason to produce them

The dialogue I am trying to 'start' may have begun years ago but if you read through responses you will see that many have not heard it before - at least their reasoning for not considering diesels don't jive with current diesel technology.

I agree with everything you have said... your beef isn't with me... it is with those who have been disagreeing with me...

cheers,

John
 
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That's where I'm getting my information. Either they're out of business
or they're in just enough business to keep the website up. Although I
think I did read about them being at a German aviation expo in 2003 or
2004. I hope they're still around, that's too cool of a design to
let go away.

I didn't think to check the Deutsch portion of the website, maybe
it has different or more up to date info. I wouldn't be able to read
it though.


tobinbasford said:
John,
Not knocking the Zoche, but where are you getting your information? The most recent date I see on the Zocke website references January 1995!!
Is Zoche even still in business?

Tobin
Click to expand...
 
John Courte said:
I wish them luck.

It's really hard to seal up a rotary tight enough to sustain
compression-ignition. If you look at the car stats, the
n/a engines are the ones that run for 200,000 miles and
it's the turbos and twin turbos that have problems. The
apex seals and the side housings are the weak link.
lots more opportunity for compression leakage than in
a piston engine. The Mistral engines are basically
Mazda 13b's with some custom parts. Unless they've
found a way to fundamentally alter the way the trochoidal
chamber is sealed, then I wouldn't trust it until it had
safely proven itself.

Not knocking the rotary, one of my engine scenarios
involves a N/A renesis.

Sorry for the topic drift.
Click to expand...

John,
Mistral isn't trying to make a compression ignition rotary, rather they are doing something Mazda and John Deere also were looking into, that is SPARK IGNITION HEAVY FUEL operation. The engine is running NOW and in turbo form could be quite competitive.

An answer to other speculation by others a 2-cycle diesel usually REQUIRES supercharging for startup. The 2 stage system has been used for years for trucks, trains and , automobiles. (Mostly Trucks) If you lose your supercharger after starting you probably won't even notice. DeltaHawk has been working on using a smaller and smaller supercharger throughout their development. The low profile supercharger they are now using is a very small unit. Not a problem really. Wilsich's engine ALSO uses a super and turbo supercharger, as I said this is typical for these engines. The DeltaHawk is also much smoother as a 90? V-4 has excellent primary balance. The 2-cycle has smaller input pulses than any Lycoming. It runs like a V-8 4-cycle.

Bill Jepson
 
Engines

Whatever happened to that Dynacam I think it was called, that Piper was test-flying in an Arrow some years back? There was talk about them putting it into production, but I never heard anything about it.
 
new diesel

Hi guys

Check out this page tdc-ltd.co.uk click on news,it could fit under the cowl,but in an E-mail they informed me that aero engines due this autumn for testing so it could take awhile
I researhed the diesel options for my RV8 2 years back=
Thielert, underpowered, cowl modifications,installed price 35000$
Wilsch,cowl mods,4 cyl just around the corner(2003) still not ready price 25000$ installed
Deltahawk 2003, inverted just around the corner, cowl mods, installed price 26-28000$
Mistral,190 hp 31000$ for the engine alone

Dont exspect to fit a new diesel engine cheaper than lyc. in europe we anticipate to save the extra money back on fuel, jetA1 half price of 100LL,
j?rn m?ller
RV8 203 hours
 
DeltaHawk builder?

I also contacted DH sales department several times as this engine is still my first choise if there is a useful firewall forward for my RV7 in the beginning of 2008. So there is still time left.

But with contacting them I made 2 major experiences:

1.) If you get an answer on questions you might get them after the third email reminding them
and
2.)The european salesman tells you different stuff as the company itself.

First the eurpean salesman talked about an RV with a DH already in production and a firewall under development.
The company in the US told me there is still no firewall and still no RV flying or under construction with a DH.

So, is there anybody out there already integrating or better, flying with a DH in an RV???
Please contact me under [email protected] if you have any useful information on this.
Flying with a Lyc is horrable expensive in Germany as fuel costs would double the price of a Lyc compared to a DH over 2000h.

Thanks,

Dominik
 
Again me, Dominik.

This message reached me a few days ago:

I would be very interested in sharing my experiences. I am developing a Deltahawk engine firewall forward kit for the RV-7/7A and will have a web site up soon showing what I have so far. As you probably know, there has been a delay in the delivery of production engines. I am working with an engine block that was loaned to me by Deltahawk to develop the engine mount, cowl, and coolers. After I can prove that I have a good design that works I will offer these items for sale on my web site. I am waiting on Deltahawk to design the final engine attach brackets but while I am waiting I have built an engine mount from angle steel that positions the engine in the correct location so I can continue with building the cowl. I will let you know when the web site is ready.
Ted


There might come a useful firewall forward kit solution soon. This woud be the moment I will place an order.

Dominik
www.vans-rv7.de
 
DeltaHawk Diesel

I just returned from OSH a few days ago.

I have been looking at the 180 hp DeltaHawk Diesel over the past several years.

See: http://www.deltahawkengines.com

Despite the difficulty of a brand new engine, I feel the benefits of this diesel are too numerous to overlook. It will pay for itself by the time a Lycoming is due for an overhaul. This forecast was made with last years fuel prices.

I spoke with both DeltaHawk and Curt LoPresti of LoPresti Speed Merchants <http://www.speedmods.com> about LoPresti designing both an engine mount and cowl for the RV-8. If I can get a sufficient number of builders interested in the DeltaHawk engine, LoPresti has agreed to design an engine mount and Cowl.

One of LoPresti?s concerns about getting into the homebuilt market is that it is very easy to rip off a design for a cowl or fairing. A production engine would need an STC?d design. Selling only firewall forward kits might help solve this problem. Any other ideas?

MT has a propeller on the DeltaHawk Velocity. AeroComposits <http://www.aerocomposites.com> will be supplying a test propeller shortly.

I am hoping to get some support from Van?s in identifying builders who might be interested in taking the plunge, but as you may know, Van has not been too supportive of alternative engines.

I spoke with DeltaHawk about starting a Yahoo Group for their engines.

Should there be sufficient interest to proceed with this program I will visit DeltaHawk for a first hand view of their engine and its progress. The 180 hp engine will be perfect for the RV-8/A. A properly designed cowl should yield additional speed or economies. I don?t think that there is a better design company than LoPresti.

As a back up, I also spoke with Sam James. He said that they were very busy, but he would talk with me. His location is not too far from me, nor is LoPresti for that matter.

I?d also appreciate any ideas in getting this word out to RV builders. It may be that RV 7 and 9 builders could also benefit form this program.

Martin Sobel
 
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[email protected] said:
I am hoping to get some support from Van?s in identifying builders who might be interested in taking the plunge, but as you may know, Van has not been to supportive of alternative engines.[/FONT]
Click to expand...
Ha!! Good luck with that!! You are right, they don't, and probably won't ever support an alternative engine...

I think most RVers know of the Deltahawk engine. It's been discussed here NUMEROUS times, and there's a bunch of info, and interest in it. You'll probably find the RV forums (here, Rivetbangers, Matronics, Yahoo...) your best bet for finding those interested in it.
 
rv-7 install

Ok.. 1. I drive a tdi 02 golf... 53.002 mpg drafting an 18 wheeler.. 51 mpg highway... avg 40 in the city driving HARD.
2. Talked to DeltaHawk and they may of given me rumbledumble's web address... here it is.
http://www.dieselfirewallforward.com/
This guy is putting one in his -7 or -7a.
3. The nice lady at DH said they still were working out some bugs but it has flown in a velocity. The first batch is sold out and the next batch is on order.
4. diesel is the wave of the future
5. Lets get in touch with SMA and use their engine on a 7a if we can.... it's flying in 182's with good results!
6. the HP thing seems to be a misnomer... I have 90hp in my TDI golf and I pass 140hp cars with ease. IT tows 1000'lbs... cannot do that with a 90hp gasser.
7. If we can put some fat paddles on a diesel engine... we are home free! The 160hp should be tons of torque more than the 160hp gasser from lyc.
8. As soon as I build the 7a... I'll be looking for a diesel....
Thanks
Brian Wallis
rv-8 had kit to qb stage
now flying AA-1A looking for -7a kit.
N357BW Res
 
I want a diesel

I like diesel. Have one in my Jeep Liberty (Continuous Rail). Used diesels on the ranch for years (still do).

I want a diesel in my plane. Someday.

So here is my plan. I will place the Lycoming O-320 in my RV9-A and fly the dickens out of it :eek: in hopes that before I wear out this engine that someone (or anyone) completes an aviation diesel, with FWF and mount for my ride. I will then assess this and hopefully buy.

I want a diesel in my plane. Someday.

*by the way...Lycoming gassers use fuel for cooling. This is part of the "diesel is more effecient" arguement.

Patrick N. Garboden
Ozark, MO
RV9-A 942WG
RV9-A 942PT
 
WOW...That's uhh... an impressive website...wooohoooo!!! :D Maybe it should be called fuelpump/relayfoward.com :p Guess he had to start somewhere.
 
Martin Sobel said:
..........snip.... but as you may know, Van has not been too supportive of alternative engines....snip


Martin Sobel
Click to expand...

Van is only interested in getting folks into the air with a known, proven commodity and says so in his manual. He is not opposed to alternative engines, he just doesn't want to go there himself since his time is better spent improving current designs (E.G. pre-punched RV 8).

Diesels, because of their very high compression requirements have a problem (one of many) with hard power pulses shaking the prop bolts loose, etc. The obvious solution is some kind of dampener....more weight, cost etc. Google "TANSTAAFL" and it becomes clearer,
Regards,
 
Diesel Power Pulse

An interesting aspect of the Deltahawk is that it is a two stroke engine. There are four power pulses per revolution versus 2 for a four stroke, 4 cyl Lycoming. That should approximately halve the impulse strength - not increase it. The ICP curve on a diesel can also be mangaged by fuel injection timing and modulation further reducing the potential for resonant issues.
 
For what it is worth, a friend just canceled a long standing order for this engine because no one could come up with an engine mount for the Lancair 360. He is going with an IO360 instead. At least that is what he told me.

What would concern me the most about diesel in an airplane (I stopped considering it years ago) is the fact there are so few flying after all these years of development work. How long has Zoch been leading us on? DH has been under development for some time but not as long as Zoch.

Guess what is needed is for someone to step up to the plate, do it and report the findings. Seems like the manufacturers are reluctant to bite the bullet themselves.

dd
Besides that, diesel smells awful. I use it in a tractor. :)
 
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The SFC on a 2 stroke diesel is really not much better than a high CR gasoline engine fitted with EI and FI running LOP. I think DH was publishing .38 some time ago. Standard big Contis running LOP achieve the same figure as has LightSpeed with the small bore Contis, the LS1 running in closed loop is around .375 at medium rpms. While the DH might save a bit in the taxi and climb portions, I think initial comparisons with mag equipped, carbed Lycos don't represent current state of the art in gasoline engines.

I agree with DD here. we need to wait for some independent flight testing for the real numbers.
 
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