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C'mon Dynon, What's Up?

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Dynon,
I am planning on a Dynon EFIS and EMS. Being that my -7 is going to be all electric. Can I put a FlightDek as a backup using the same sensors as the EMS?


Group buy..... Count me in on at least a couple servos.
 
Michael,
Most sensors for the EMS are powered by the EMS. This means you can only have the hooked to one instrument at a time. Because of this, the only real way to have redundant EMS units is to install redundant senders. Some things like RPM, MAP, AMPS, fuel flow, EGT and CHT can be shared, but oil pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure, fuel level, and some others cannot.

Most people opt for a D100 and a D180. This gives you redundant EFIS units in two boxes, but only one EMS. Most pilots feel that they can get down safely even without engine instruments, but the EFIS is a whole different story.
 
Me too. Wrap it and ship it. Check's in the mail. I'll leave cab fare on the bedstand. (oops, got a little carried away in the excitement.)

I feel a group buy coming on.

Add a 430W, 596/dock, SL-30, GTX-330, and PS's new audio panel, and a tiny chihuahua that bobs its head, and I'm good to go.
 
Ok...I haven't chimed in much on this thread...but...

At least from my standpoint this would be a horrible product to have a group buy on. If there is one, it won't be from me. The trim controllers were for a VERY specific reason. New product, reasonable margin for the mfgr and little support required. Easy way to mfgr to launch a new product and get a bunch of units and get them in people's hands quickly.

Servos, AP's, or other avionics are a different story. First, margins are usually dismal at best to begin with. Second, AP's are one of THE MOST customer support intensive products available for aircraft. We (and I know the other AP mfgrs quite well) spend MANY hours per day/week answering tons of questions on AP installs - probably more hours than you can possibly imagine. With very little profit on the front side, there would be no room for the untold hours of support it would take.

Lastly, all they (Dynon) would be doing in a group buy scenario is taking a product that if you're going to buy you'll buy anyway and giving it away at a cheaper price (read less profit). Would you rather pay a few pennies more to see them develop more products at reasonable prices or make it cheaper and have the company barely survive? It's not like any of them are getting rich to begin with, and they aren't a huge company.

This is a case where I'm kind of baffled. Dynon has worked hard to already come up with a product that is very affordably priced. I wish people would already see the value instead of automatically going into vulture mode! :)

I've said it many times before, but people ignore me. Avionics and related items are something that are VERY ill suited for any type of group buy. Trim controllers were easy...a little box that required no support. Anyway, again I'll say...avionics are a horrible thing to do group buys with. So are Autopilots! Why not just embrace the value Dynon has already created?!?

My 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

PS for woxofswa you do realize that we have 2 Chihuahua's in our shop all day every day?!? I'll sell you all the Garmin goodies you want, but the dogs can't be part of the deal....they are our "security system"!
 
Steiner,

You magic whiz box dudes forget that you would be out of a job if it weren't for us. Afterall, we (pilots) INVENTED copper wire ... by stretching pennies!

Seriously, your point is very well taken. Everyone deserves to be well compensated for their time, efforts, and creativity. You will be getting a call for a quote hopefully in the not too distant future. The fact that you and Dynon participate here means a lot to me.
 
rjcthree said:
Stein, with all due respect, I'm kinda seeing you talking out of both sides of your mouth here. "Get it out quickly . . . reasonable margin . . . little support" vs "you're gonna buy it anyway . . . low margin . . . high support required".
Click to expand...

After being in my own HVAC business for just a few months shy of 25 years now (37 years total experience) .........

I didn't question these statements at all. I totally agree with Stein; as I know exactly where he's coming from!

L.Adamson
 
Flight Director?

I started with one question, and keep editing to add more......pretty exciting product!


I noticed the AP76 has a FD selector. Will a flight director be available soon?

Will there be a separate Nav and App mode with the AP76? Lets say ATC says "Track inbound on localizer" instead of "Cleared for the approach". How would that situation work out?

Will you be able to operate vertical and horizontal AP functions seperately? If I wanted it to hold altitude while banking and turning manually, is it possible? How about tracking a nav course while flying altitude manually?

What functions does the HS34 do that the AP76 cannot? Is it worth the extra $650 to have both?
 
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The AP76's configuration has yet to be completely finalized; the FD and turbulence mode buttons are somewhat in the air at the moment. So will a flight director be available? Maybe.

You can have the vertical an horizontal modes set independently, ie - vertical set to alt hold with horizontal set to nav, tracking an ILS, to get the behavior that you're asking for when you're given instructions that don't include the clearance to fly down the glideslope.

This doesn't answer your question - but with the AP76, you'll also be able to have the autopilot automatically sequence during an approach if you want if you do have that clearance. So, you can leave the AP on heading hold and alt hold, inbound towards an ILS, and have the autopilot automatically sequence onto the ILS as it captures it.

As currently defined, the pitch servo can only be engaged when the roll servo is engaged (if you have it). This design produces some user interface wins, but we're constantly evaluating what the right mix of modes engagement possibilities produces the best blend of functionality and usability.

The HS34 provides completely different functions than either of the AP modules. Fundamentally, think of it as a converter box to bring in ARINC-429 and analog signals from products like a 430. This enables radio and GPS data to be displayed on the HSI, and also allows the autopilot to get the ARINC GPS steering labels from those devices. It doesn't add dedicated autopilot controls per se, but it does have dedicated heading and course knobs that can affect the autopilot when you're in modes that respond to changes in those values.
 
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dynonsupport said:
The AP76's configuration has yet to be completely finalized; the FD and turbulence mode buttons are somewhat in the air at the moment. So will a flight director be available? Maybe.
Click to expand...
I would really encourage you to have a FD mode, but with VERY CLEAR annunciation with whether the unit is in AP or FD mode.

TODR
 
No Tru Trak Brackets

I called Tru Trak today to try to buy the RV-7 right wing and pitch servo brackets from them, since their brackets will work with Dynon servos with no modification. I was told that as of last Friday they would no longer sell just the brackets. To get their brackets you have to buy their servos. HMMM, wonder what brought that on.

No pressure on you Dynon... Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean?

Steve
 
Just to clear up any confusion that may be brewing: We will be producing our own installation kits for the most popular airframes out there, starting with RVs. We don't expect you to buy installation kits from TruTrak.
 
Thanks

The only reason I was looking to Tru Trak for brackets is that I thought their's would be available today, Dynon's aren't. I'm about ready to close up my right (and last) wing and wanted to install bracketry with the skin off. I'll just do it through the inspection hole, no biggie. I don't want to leave the skin off for other reasons.

Thanks a lot to DynonSupport for all the help and, well, support.

Steve
 
dynonsupport said:
Just to clear up any confusion that may be brewing: We will be producing our own installation kits for the most popular airframes out there, starting with RVs. We don't expect you to buy installation kits from TruTrak.
Click to expand...

Dynon, I have my TT pitch servo installed in my RV-9A already. If I decide to switch to the Dynon AP, can I still use the TT mounting bracket that is already mounted riveted into place?

Thanks!
 
mikehoover said:
Dynon, I have my TT pitch servo installed in my RV-9A already. If I decide to switch to the Dynon AP, can I still use the TT mounting bracket that is already mounted riveted into place?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I am sure they will confirm but he has stated in other responses that you CAN use the TT brackets.
 
Dynon could really clean up

If their brain box could drive the TT servos...gee a retrofit/upgrade project would then give existing TT owners like me a different option.

Frank
 
frankh said:
If their brain box could drive the TT servos...gee a retrofit/upgrade project would then give existing TT owners like me a different option.
Click to expand...
I wonder if they could design an interface box that connected to the TT servo to give it the same electrical and logical interface as the Dynon servo. If possible, that would allow the TT servos to be used with the rest of the Dynon autopilot bits.
 
Kevin Horton said:
I wonder if they could design an interface box that connected to the TT servo to give it the same electrical and logical interface as the Dynon servo. If possible, that would allow the TT servos to be used with the rest of the Dynon autopilot bits.
Click to expand...

That "converter box" = "a Dynon servo".

That's a bit tongue and cheek, but consider the reasoning. Our servos, while mechanically similar to others, are fundamentally different than other servos in the way they are controlled, monitored, and interact with the EFIS. They are as much a part of the autopilot as the EFIS, and have unique characteristics that have been engineered into them.

So supporting any other servo but our own is actual development work, including the re-development of the autopilot's control algorithms. Frankly, to really do it right, you'd need the sort of co-development by the companies involved that is not likely to happen given that we're all competitors and consider our respective technologies to be proprietary.

But lets suppose that that that limitation doesn't exist. So you design, implement, and test a converter or other method to drive other servos. It now needs to be monetized. It's not a stretch to say that to make such an effort worthwhile, considering the lowish volumes involved, that we'd need to charge the same, or even more, for a converter than we we'll be charging for our own servos. So instead, we designed our servos to be able to be physically compatible with the market-leader to the same end.
 
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OK, I'm just about there. Just about ready to commit at Sun-n-Fun to going from steam gages to Dynon glass, but I seem to be hung up on having the terrain show up on the screen.

Dynon - is that in the works, or is it available now but I just don't see it on the website? I'm sure that makes everything more complex, and a fast processor is then needed, etc., but if you can pull off this autopilot and servos for a great price, maybe the terrain part is in the pipeline!
 
Our general policy is to not comment on products that aren't about ready to be launched.

But, it's fairly safe to say that there won't be mapping or terrain on our current line of products. It just doesn't have the raw computing horsepower to support it in the way we envision.
 
Kevin Horton said:
I wonder if they could design an interface box that connected to the TT servo to give it the same electrical and logical interface as the Dynon servo. If possible, that would allow the TT servos to be used with the rest of the Dynon autopilot bits.
Click to expand...

I would like to see this as well. Pulling cables for a proprietary bus when standards exist is a pain. Couple that with a single source supplier and the risk only go up.
I can't think of a better bet right now than this Dynon unit but these closed systems scare me....
 
JD,
Our servos us the same wires a TT does. We use 5 wires, while they use 6 or 7. If you've pulled wires for a TT, we can use them. While we put different signals on the wires, you haven't locked yourself into anything if you pull 7 wires. We've done our best to avoid deviating from the standard, which is why we are mechanically compatible with the current market leader.

And as we mentioned before, we are charging for our autopilot by selling servos. If we made a converter box, it would have to cost as much as the servo for it to make financial sense to us. So then you'd have a $750 converter box on top of the other servo you have. That's a very expensive autopilot, which is pretty much the antithesis of the Dynon way ;)
 
And as we mentioned before, we are charging for our autopilot by selling servos. If we made a converter box, it would have to cost as much as the servo for it to make financial sense to us. So then you'd have a $750 converter box on top of the other servo you have. That's a very expensive autopilot, which is pretty much the antithesis of the Dynon way ;)
Click to expand...
Guys,

It is a choice to build a closed system in the first place. IMHO Saying it would be too expensive to build a ?converter? at this point is simply misdirection.
(Not that your compeditors aren't doing the same thing....:rolleyes:)

As I originally stated, I am not trying to take away from Dynon or their products. I have never owned one but those that I trust have nothing but glowing comments on your equipment.

This is a general issue with ALL the expEFIS guys but I will leave further comments to a more appropriate thread.
 
jdeas said:
Guys,

It is a choice to build a closed system in the first place. IMHO Saying it would be too expensive to build a “converter” at this point is simply misdirection.
(Not that your compeditors aren't doing the same thing....:rolleyes:)
Click to expand...

I think you misinterpreted what dynonsupport said. He/she didn't say that it would be too expensive to build a converter. What has been said in several different ways is that it would be too costly to their business. There's a huge difference. They don't charge extra for their AP software (it will be in all of their EFIS's upon release), so their profit comes from the servos. If they give you the AP software for free AND build a low-cost converter for your TT servo...no profit.

Additionally, as was noted earlier, the Dynon servos are not simply TT knock-offs, so the converter wouldn't simply be a Data In - Data Out proposition. Instead, the converter box (or the EFIS) would actually need to recalculate the AP output to get the desired result. That most likely means more "free" software on top of the "free" AP software they've already given to you, but now you're giving them even less money than if you'd bought their servos. Same result...no profit.

When you take into account the R&D costs (including man-hours), plus the added liability that Dynon assumes by producing this product, it's hard to believe that anyone is going to be getting rich on a couple of $750 servos per plane. It seems like Dynon's decision to make their servos fit TruTrak mounting brackets was a near-brilliant compromise.

Perhaps it would have been better to try to duplicate or license TT's servos, but who's to say that wasn't attempted or at least considered? I can't think of why TruTrak would license their servos to a direct competitor of their primary product. And straight duplication may well have implicated patent law or other intellectual property issues. Or maybe Dynon genuinely believes that they needed to produce a different servo for quality, durability, safety, cost, or other non-legal concerns.
 
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I think you missed my point

My point is much larger than why a Dynon EFIS needs a converter to work with a TT servo. I will respond to this in a new thread as I feel a bit bad that iit's ended up on a strickly Dynon thread.
 
Flight Director

Dynon Support. I noticed that you said you maybe will have a flight director. I would really encourage that one be programmed. That is the only sticking point for me. I see a FD as a great safety tool. The fact that a FD can be used with an autopilot either on or off makes hand flying approaches much easier and safer. I hope to see this feature on your EFIS as that is the selling point for me.
 
To Dynon Support…..

Just when you thought you had answered all possible questions, I have one remaining. I’m wiring my disconnect panel push button and in an earlier post you mention a 30K resistor (you were not completely sure of the value) could be tied across the push button to ground so the Servo(s) could sense if the wire was broken. My question is, is the 30K value correct and is it the same value if you have 2 Servos connected to the same switch? I thought perhaps the resistor value should be cut in half if you have 2 Servos biasing the same switch.

Thanks…..
 
HS 34, EMS & autopilot on EFIS

To Dynonsupport. I really appreciate your new product and will convert to it. I already planned on using one EFIS D10A, one EMS D120 and HS34, in order to display HSI on engine monitor.

Now, I understood that it would be useful to have HS34 in order to send AP roll and pitch infos (i.e.: glideslope) and I would buy it for having separate knobs and this functionality (I would also buy AP74 to manage simply AP).

My question is: will I be able to display flight and AP infos on EFIS and, at the same time, read HSI on engine monitor? My doubt is that HS34 and/or SL30 infos go straightly to EFIS and not (not also) to engine monitor. If so, I would not like to display HSI on EFIS (so losing flight infos) and have EMS blank (only engine datas).

I hope I was clear...

Thanks.
Camillo
 
When you have an HS34 in the system, all nav sources connect to it and are shared on the DSAB bus therefore you can still have the HSI on the EM or the EFIS.
 
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