[squeakersc063]

We have the lists of customers' backordered items and we're working to fulfill those, too. You won't be getting an offer on the web portal for backordered kit items, because we plan to ship those to you without price adjustments.

Ah, well, if y'all have the bandwidth I can send an email with the stuff I ordered from the store and save y'all the hundred or so bucks sending me things I already have now.

 

[GregInIdaho]

We need the details of the "Trust" account. Who has authority, what that authority is, exactly what triggers movement of funds, what is required of those funds, what triggers termination of the account, etc etc etc. We should be privy to the document that governs the formation, execution, and disposition of that "Trust" account. Just telling me in an email that its separate from general funds does not suffice.

Read the court documents. Van's petitioned the court to allow the funds in a specific bank account which is held by Van's, to be considered the property of the customers who made deposits going forward. The court agreed, so presumably (and I am not a lawyer) the funds in that account can't be taken by other creditors or by Van's. If Van's were to take the funds prior to the date agreed in the new purchase contract, someone would likely be going to jail. Pretty unlikely. You are not going to get an escrow, that thought is just silly. Van's historically entered into agreements with fixed prices for uncertain dates in the future. That is one of the things that got them in trouble. They are not going to do that again. Van's cannot tell you when you will get an engine from Lycoming. My guess is that Lycoming can't tell you either nor can they tells Van's (not because the court says so, but because they don;t know). The bottom line is that you are NOT going to get the information you want. My guess is that you are not going to get the "name of the person who has authority..." or any other such nonsense.

 

[Bearman]

Is anyone else getting multiple emails from [email protected] about the new engine contracts? I had two the first day, and just got another one today. I wonder if they are trying to work out the problem for those that have yet to be notified.

I received 4 the first day and 1 today.

 

[greghughespdx]

The final batch of Lycoming engine orders has been loaded to the BMC order portal, and email notifications sent this afternoon. With this load, all open orders for RV kits, engines and propellers have been loaded for review, and notifications have sent to the email addresses on record. We have a few non-delivered email addresses that we are working through over the next few business days. Anyone with an open order who has not received email contact should first check their email and junk mail folders for email from [email protected], and failing that please send an email to us at Van's at [email protected].

Anyone who received a new revised order to review this week has an extended period in which to review and accept their revised orders, should they choose to do so, of 11:59 p.m. Pacific Time on February 13, 2024.

 

[georgemohr]

The final batch of Lycoming engine orders has been loaded to the BMC order portal, and email notifications sent this afternoon. With this load, all open orders for RV kits, engines and propellers have been loaded for review, and notifications have sent to the email addresses on record. We have a few non-delivered email addresses that we are working through over the next few business days. Anyone with an open order who has not received email contact should first check their email and junk mail folders for email from [email protected], and failing that please send an email to us at Van's at [email protected].

Anyone who received a new revised order to review this week has an extended period in which to review and accept their revised orders, should they choose to do so, of 11:59 p.m. Pacific Time on February 13, 2024.

Greg, do you have any sense of when production will resume for props? We were fully paid and probably about to ship when the shutdown happened. We're ready for our first engine run and would love some idea of timeframe.

 

[greghughespdx]

Greg, do you have any sense of when production will resume for props? We were fully paid and probably about to ship when the shutdown happened. We're ready for our first engine run and would love some idea of timeframe.

Props are being produced. The timeframes for that we cannot specify just yet. Most of the props we sell are Hartzell brand, and the fine folks there are certainly stepping up and doing everything they can to make things happen for customers. We will be working with each of the prop companies to get/keep things moving as best we can. The financial aspects of that mean we will be ramping up. The next couple weeks are going to be fairly hectic, and probably less than optimal from a planning-time-availability perspective, but as we move forward things will return to something closer to "new-normal" operations.

I'll try to update when there's more info to share. Until things are solid, we don't want to estimate or guess about timelines that we are not yet certain of. I hope you'll understand that.

 

[jimbom]

Read the court documents. Van's petitioned the court to allow the funds in a specific bank account which is held by Van's, to be considered the property of the customers who made deposits going forward. The court agreed, so presumably (and I am not a lawyer) the funds in that account can't be taken by other creditors or by Van's. If Van's were to take the funds prior to the date agreed in the new purchase contract, someone would likely be going to jail. Pretty unlikely. You are not going to get an escrow, that thought is just silly. Van's historically entered into agreements with fixed prices for uncertain dates in the future. That is one of the things that got them in trouble. They are not going to do that again. Van's cannot tell you when you will get an engine from Lycoming. My guess is that Lycoming can't tell you either nor can they tells Van's (not because the court says so, but because they don;t know). The bottom line is that you are NOT going to get the information you want. My guess is that you are not going to get the "name of the person who has authority..." or any other such nonsense.

It's fantastic when somebody who knows everything speaks up.

Regarding your bolded text above, I am certain someone knows and could tell me (maybe that someone is you) whether my engine is in the same place in line as my original order, if it goes to the back behind new Van's orders or if it goes to the back of the line of all Lycoming engines being built. It's kind of important when plunking down $75,000. Based on how long I've been waiting so far, that would give me an inkling of whether I'll be waiting a matter of months, years or many years.

 

[jimbom]

For example, we might need to ship parts to a customer with a kit delivery to avoid more backorder costs before everyone gets the same backordered parts. When this happens, it primarily is to ensure two things: First, that we are shipping things that ensure positive cash flow week to week; and second, that we are not creating more backorders to manage. With that said, both backorders and new orders are being fulfilled - but it is a slow process.

That is music to my ears. Thank you for posting this.

 

[GregInIdaho]

It's fantastic when somebody who knows everything speaks up.

Regarding your bolded text above, I am certain someone knows and could tell me (maybe that someone is you) whether my engine is in the same place in line as my original order, if it goes to the back behind new Van's orders or if it goes to the back of the line of all Lycoming engines being built. It's kind of important when plunking down $75,000. Based on how long I've been waiting so far, that would give me an inkling of whether I'll be waiting a matter of months, years or many years.

Well now, you are asking a different question than I responded to. I judge from your snarky tone that you will never be happy with any answer you receive. It really did NOT matter to me when I re-ordered my engine. I need one for my RV-12, and figured the sooner I re-ordered, the sooner I would receive it. (Original crate date OCt-Dec 23). Luckily or maybe not, I have not yet ordered one for my RV-10.

 

[jimbom]

Well now, you are asking a different question than I responded to. I judge from your snarky tone that you will never be happy with any answer you receive. It really did NOT matter to me when I re-ordered my engine. I need one for my RV-12, and figured the sooner I re-ordered, the sooner I would receive it. (Original crate date OCt-Dec 23). Luckily or maybe not, I have not yet ordered one for my RV-10.

I apologize for any snarky-ness; it must be contagious.

The post you quoted did not broach the subject of when engines would be delivered, but a lot of people here have voiced concern about where in the queue we'll be on our modified orders, so I assumed you were chastising those of us with that concern.

Greg just answered several questions I posted and, like those, an answer to this question would also make me happy.

 

[dmattmul]

Read the court documents. Van's petitioned the court to allow the funds in a specific bank account which is held by Van's, to be considered the property of the customers who made deposits going forward. The court agreed, so presumably (and I am not a lawyer) the funds in that account can't be taken by other creditors or by Van's. If Van's were to take the funds prior to the date agreed in the new purchase contract, someone would likely be going to jail.

Great description of an escrow account. So why not an actual escrow account? Or let Lycoming, Hartzell or Rotax hold the $$, verify then trust, especially now.

 

[spatsch]

.. presumably (and I am not a lawyer) the funds in that account can't be taken by other creditors or by Van's

I think that's a big presumption when chapter 7 is not of the table... .

Oliver

 

[ccarlson]

We have the lists of customers' backordered items and we're working to fulfill those, too. You won't be getting an offer on the web portal for backordered kit items, because we plan to ship those to you without price adjustments.

Hi Greg,

Before I say anything else, I want to thank you for chiming in this evening with what I think may be the best & most sincere set of comms produced on Van’s behalf (that I’ve seen/read) since May 2023.

With regard to backordered items, and I do apologize if I’ve missed this elsewhere, do the lists of backordered items include Aerosun VXi wingtips ordered (and paid in full) with wing kits?

 

[airguy]

Props are being produced. The timeframes for that we cannot specify just yet. Most of the props we sell are Hartzell brand, and the fine folks there are certainly stepping up and doing everything they can to make things happen for customers. We will be working with each of the prop companies to get/keep things moving as best we can. The financial aspects of that mean we will be ramping up. The next couple weeks are going to be fairly hectic, and probably less than optimal from a planning-time-availability perspective, but as we move forward things will return to something closer to "new-normal" operations.

I'll try to update when there's more info to share. Until things are solid, we don't want to estimate or guess about timelines that we are not yet certain of. I hope you'll understand that.

Glad to hear from you Greg! Now right the ship and get 'er done!

 

[georgemohr]

Props are being produced. The timeframes for that we cannot specify just yet. Most of the props we sell are Hartzell brand, and the fine folks there are certainly stepping up and doing everything they can to make things happen for customers. We will be working with each of the prop companies to get/keep things moving as best we can. The financial aspects of that mean we will be ramping up. The next couple weeks are going to be fairly hectic, and probably less than optimal from a planning-time-availability perspective, but as we move forward things will return to something closer to "new-normal" operations.

I'll try to update when there's more info to share. Until things are solid, we don't want to estimate or guess about timelines that we are not yet certain of. I hope you'll understand that.

Updates like this give everyone a sense of ease even though hard info is scarce. Thanks.

 

[JDBoston]

It's fantastic when somebody who knows everything speaks up.

Regarding your bolded text above, I am certain someone knows and could tell me (maybe that someone is you) whether my engine is in the same place in line as my original order, if it goes to the back behind new Van's orders or if it goes to the back of the line of all Lycoming engines being built. It's kind of important when plunking down $75,000. Based on how long I've been waiting so far, that would give me an inkling of whether I'll be waiting a matter of months, years or many years.

THIS THIS THIS.

That is actually all I am asking for as well. I appreciate Greg answering the other questions and I think he was implying "we aren't able/sure to announce anything else". I respect that for now. The only question I really am seeking an answer on is not when Lycoming specifically can send my engine to me, but IF this whole process has reset the clock for the engines meaning that this is as if we ordered starting today rather than two years ago (place in line).

 

[andrepew]

Does anyone know what the deal is with the engine reorder contract? It looks like I'd be both binding myself to complete the sale as well as pre-accepting all potential future price increases.

Can someone smarter than me in legalese please tell me I'm wrong?

 

[Cletus]

Does anyone know what the deal is with the engine reorder contract? It looks like I'd be both binding myself to complete the sale as well as pre-accepting all potential future price increases.

Can someone smarter than me in legalese please tell me I'm wrong?

View attachment 55400

Your understanding is correct. When there is a significant delay in delivery of the item it’s understandable that the cost of production increases must be passed on to the purchaser.

 

[andrepew]

Your understanding is correct. When there is a significant delay in delivery of the item it’s understandable that the cost of production increases must be passed on to the purchaser.

I am a customer, not an investor. I am trying to buy a thing, not sign up for exposure to someone else’s supply chain risks.

I am obligating myself to purchase a thing at a set price or expressing interest in buying a thing and price is negotiated later — not some weird combo of the two. Obligating oneself to buy a thing at a future unknown price is nuts. What if the price is 100k by the time delivery rolls around? 110k? What if I can’t afford it? Are they going to sue me? Keep my deposit? Crazy thing to agree to.

 

[QuixoteAg]

I am a customer, not an investor. I am trying to buy a thing, not sign up for exposure to someone else’s supply chain risks.

I am obligating myself to purchase a thing at a set price or expressing interest in buying a thing and price is negotiated later — not some weird combo of the two. Obligating oneself to buy a thing at a future unknown price is nuts. What if the price is 100k by the time delivery rolls around? 110k? What if I can’t afford it? Are they going to sue me? Keep my deposit? Crazy thing to agree to.

Then dont agree, file a claim and buy your engine somewhere else.

 

[andrepew]

Then dont agree, file a claim and buy your engine somewhere else.

That’s the plan! Just wanted to make sure my understanding was correct.

 

[airguy]

I am a customer, not an investor. I am trying to buy a thing, not sign up for exposure to someone else’s supply chain risks.

I am obligating myself to purchase a thing at a set price or expressing interest in buying a thing and price is negotiated later — not some weird combo of the two. Obligating oneself to buy a thing at a future unknown price is nuts. What if the price is 100k by the time delivery rolls around? 110k? What if I can’t afford it? Are they going to sue me? Keep my deposit? Crazy thing to agree to.

Yup. You are literally agreeing to all that, making a deal with a company in the middle of Chapter 11 reorganization. This is more risk than some are willing to take. You will have to decide if it's for you, or not.

If you can't take the risk, then don't - just like Vegas.

 

[Cletus]

I am a customer, not an investor. I am trying to buy a thing, not sign up for exposure to someone else’s supply chain risks.

I am obligating myself to purchase a thing at a set price or expressing interest in buying a thing and price is negotiated later — not some weird combo of the two. Obligating oneself to buy a thing at a future unknown price is nuts. What if the price is 100k by the time delivery rolls around? 110k? What if I can’t afford it? Are they going to sue me? Keep my deposit? Crazy thing to agree to.

That’s a decision we all have to make. In my case if I ordered through a lycoming distributor the current price is $103000 and the final cost is whatever it is at the time of production. So the deal with Vans is similar to the lycoming distributors but the engine from vans is not certified therefore it is considerably cheaper.

 

[Jonnyb]

That’s a decision we all have to make. In my case if I ordered through a lycoming distributor the current price is $103000 and the final cost is whatever it is at the time of production. So the deal with Vans is similar to the lycoming distributors but the engine from vans is not certified therefore it is considerably cheaper.

Is there no clause to remind the contract and get your deposit back if the price rises are large? Everything I have signed up to, that has an unknown future price, has included a clause where you can get your money back when the final delivery price is known. This has usually been cars

 

[Dan 57]

Here's the Purchase and Deposit Agreement one will enter and sign if agreeing to the terms. Certainly a good read for a Sunday Jonnyb

 

[Jonnyb]

Here's the Purchase and Deposit Agreement one will enter and sign if agreeing to the terms. Certainly a good read for a Sunday Jonnyb

The fact you're signing up to an unknown price, at an unknown point in the future, at considerable risk puts me off.
$15k down and your engine doubles in price between now and delivery, what are you supposed to do, just suck it up?
Im glad I started building when I did, not sure I would even start now.

 

[DanNiendorff]

Here's the Purchase and Deposit Agreement one will enter and sign if agreeing to the terms. Certainly a good read for a Sunday Jonnyb

The agreement linked above is for kits. It is not the “ third-party component” agreement that is being offered for engines. The engine agreement does not contain any provision for a future refund of a deposit.

 

[Dan 57]

You're right, the above linked is a sample, and though the text is the same, the Third-Party Component agreement is missing the all too important cancellation clause:

 

[JMS1198]

Makes sense, after repeated attempts via email and phone calls to Vans, in an effort to figure out the amount of completed engine kits available and place in line (possible timeline)…they might not get the amount of renewed contracts that they’re hoping for, and needing…I hope that their restructuring plan is successful….(I have 120k into my build as others, some more).

 

[JDBoston]

Makes sense, after repeated attempts via email and phone calls to Vans, in an effort to figure out the amount of completed engine kits available and place in line (possible timeline)…they might not get the amount of renewed contracts that they’re hoping for, and needing…I hope that their restructuring plan is successful….(I have 120k into my build as others, some more).

Are you saying you were successful in getting through and you have information that says they may not be successful? I’m seeking the same (place in line) info

 

[cgeyman]

My lycoming o-320 (not TB) contract redo was only $1,000 more than originally signed. Not a big deal to me. No price gouging from my perspective- go Vans.
Cal

 

[cactusman]

I signed up for my Thunderbolt 540. $7000 more roughly. Frankly I don't think any of us have any other options at this point in time. Nothing is gonna get cheaper and yes you can look into a rebuild or self-build option but I don't think those will be more cost-effective than the factory new Lycoming option. The 4 banger builders might have some more options out there possibly, but the 6 bangers are all in. The world economy is going through a major supply chain and labor disruption. Wage inflation is just getting warmed up imho. In for a penny, in for a pound as my Grandma used to say.

I, for one, appreciate Vans and Lycoming coming to this arrangement and look forward to getting my new engine hopefully some time this year.

 

[JMS1198]

Are you saying you were successful in getting through and you have information that says they may not be successful? I’m seeking the same (place in line) info

I was not successful…I wanted some simple answers…even after their extensive inventory…no answers…I’m hoping for their success because of my large investment…just like others have…tough to make big decisions with little info.

 

[lr172]

Great description of an escrow account. So why not an actual escrow account? Or let Lycoming, Hartzell or Rotax hold the $$, verify then trust, especially now.

putting your deposit in a separate account is kind of like those people at the store that have to have things rung up separately to keep their money straight from yhe other guys. It helps those that struggle with math, but does nothing to protect the other guys money. An escrow account carries legal rights for both parties, requiring obligations are met before $ moves; Putting your deposit in a separate account provide NO real protection for the depositor. Just makes it harder for someone not paying attention from spending more than they should be spending, but doesn't mean they can't do it if they want to.

Escrow accounts would be a big burden for vans, as they cost $ to maintain and utilize as well as FORCE them to properly care for your deposit, which doesn't seem to be something they like doing. The money in the separate account remains theirs in any bankruptcy with no specific obligation, beyond that of any other creditor, attached to that deposit, but that would not be the case with an escrow account. Escrow deposits are held by a third party and are not credit obligations and therefore not a part of bankruptcy actions and Vans would have no rights to them without meeting the obligations called out in the escrow conditions. If you make a deposit today, with that deposit going inot the separate account, you would have no greater legal right to that $ than those who made similar deposits before the recent chap 11 filling. It is really just an empty gesture in order to rebuild trust. In theory, it MIGHT preventing them from repeating the mistakes or last year, but is in no way a protection.

Larry

 

[JMS1198]

Nailed it…very well said.

putting your deposit in a separate account is kind of like those people at the store that have to have things rung up separately to keep their money straight from yhe other guys. It helps those that struggle with math, but does nothing to protect the other guys money. An escrow account carries legal rights for both parties, requiring obligations are met before $ moves; Putting your deposit in a separate account provide NO real protection for the depositor. Just makes it harder for someone not paying attention from spending more than they should be spending, but doesn't mean they can't do it if they want to.

Escrow accounts would be a big burden for vans, as they cost $ to maintain and utilize as well as FORCE them to properly care for your deposit, which doesn't seem to be something they like doing. The money in the separate account remains theirs in any bankruptcy with no specific obligation, beyond that of any other creditor, attached to that deposit, but that would not be the case with an escrow account. Escrow deposits are held by a third party and are not credit obligations and therefore not a part of bankruptcy actions and Vans would have no rights to them without meeting the obligations called out in the escrow conditions. If you make a deposit today, with that deposit going inot the separate account, you would have no greater legal right to that $ than those who made similar deposits before the recent chap 11 filling. It is really just an empty gesture in order to rebuild trust. In theory, it MIGHT preventing them from repeating the mistakes or last year, but is in no way a protection.

Larry

 

[N82VM]

I did get through and got an answer about place in line. They are honoring the original purchase date to the extent possible. If a batch of 10 are being built and all of them are 100% paid for pre ch 11 they are going to shuffle them around in the cue. Basically honoring a 100% paid engine creates no cash flow. Edit, probably not no cash flow but not as significant as a 25% deposit engine.

It’s like buy one get one free. A store can not do a bunch of get one frees without a buy one to go with it. I don’t know what the ratio of 100% to 25% deposit engines is, but it’s a factor.

You’re not going to the beginning and starting all over again. You’re still in cue but with some shuffling to accommodate cash flow. Can’t imagine there’s a lot of engines with more than the 25% deposit. It should be minor and a non-issue

Lycoming had some parts issues last year, 3 party parts suppliers issues, labor negotiations, and some supply chain issues. They also brought some of the 3rd party manufacturing back in house and took time to set that up. Those things slowed up Lycoming.

 

[mstrauss]

I did get through and got an answer about place in line. They are honoring the original purchase date to the extent possible. If a batch of 10 are being built and all of them are 100% paid for pre ch 11 they are going to shuffle them around in the cue. Basically honoring a 100% paid engine creates no cash flow.

It’s like buy one get one free. A store can not do a bunch of get one frees without a buy one to go with it. I don’t know what the ratio of 100% to 25% deposit engines is, but it’s a factor.

You’re not going to the beginning and starting all over again. You’re still in cue but with some shuffling to accommodate cash flow. Can’t imagine there’s a lot of engines with more than the 25% deposit. It should be minor and a non-issue

Lycoming had some parts issues last year, 3 party parts suppliers issues, labor negotiations, and some supply chain issues. They also brought some of the 3rd party manufacturing back in house and took time to set that up. Those things slowed up Lycoming.

This is an important piece of intel. Thanks for posting! So, you got all this from Vans?

 

[jimbom]

I did get through and got an answer about place in line. They are honoring the original purchase date to the extent possible. If a batch of 10 are being built and all of them are 100% paid for pre ch 11 they are going to shuffle them around in the cue. Basically honoring a 100% paid engine creates no cash flow.

It’s like buy one get one free. A store can not do a bunch of get one frees without a buy one to go with it. I don’t know what the ratio of 100% to 25% deposit engines is, but it’s a factor.

You’re not going to the beginning and starting all over again. You’re still in cue but with some shuffling to accommodate cash flow. Can’t imagine there’s a lot of engines with more than the 25% deposit. It should be minor and a non-issue

Lycoming had some parts issues last year, 3 party parts suppliers issues, labor negotiations, and some supply chain issues. They also brought some of the 3rd party manufacturing back in house and took time to set that up. Those things slowed up Lycoming.

This came from Van's, correct? I'm trying to get my head around orders that were paid in full, but no engine delivered. It's reassuring that the queue hasn't been turned upside down, but raises a lot of other questions for me.

Thanks for passing this along.

Rhetorical questions: I wonder, did Van's collect final payment for engines that Lycoming prepared to ship, but didn't send it on to Lyc, rather spent it elsewhere? Or Van's could no longer scrape together the initial deposit to send along with that final payment? Or did some customers elect to pay in full at the initial order and it's since vaporized like other 25% deposits have?

Just for the record, I've elected to accept the 12% increase and have renewed my order. I am optimistically hopeful that Van's comes out of all this OK and that we all get to finish our projects. I could even see myself building another kit (RV-15?) when (again, hopefully) all this blows over.

 

[N82VM]

This is an important piece of intel. Thanks for posting! So, you got all this from Vans?

Yes, I called and got through.

 

[swift12]

Yes everyone send your money in.

 

[GregInIdaho]

putting your deposit in a separate account is kind of like those people at the store that have to have things rung up separately to keep their money straight from yhe other guys. It helps those that struggle with math, but does nothing to protect the other guys money. An escrow account carries legal rights for both parties, requiring obligations are met before $ moves; Putting your deposit in a separate account provide NO real protection for the depositor. Just makes it harder for someone not paying attention from spending more than they should be spending, but doesn't mean they can't do it if they want to.

Escrow accounts would be a big burden for vans, as they cost $ to maintain and utilize as well as FORCE them to properly care for your deposit, which doesn't seem to be something they like doing. The money in the separate account remains theirs in any bankruptcy with no specific obligation, beyond that of any other creditor, attached to that deposit, but that would not be the case with an escrow account. Escrow deposits are held by a third party and are not credit obligations and therefore not a part of bankruptcy actions and Vans would have no rights to them without meeting the obligations called out in the escrow conditions. If you make a deposit today, with that deposit going inot the separate account, you would have no greater legal right to that $ than those who made similar deposits before the recent chap 11 filling. It is really just an empty gesture in order to rebuild trust. In theory, it MIGHT preventing them from repeating the mistakes or last year, but is in no way a protection.

Larry

I don't think that is the case. Van's petitioned the court to allow them, and the court ordered that the money in the seperate account BELONGS TO THE CUSTOMER, until it is transfered to Van's based on specific terms and timeline.

 

[docjjrmd]

I don't think that is the case. Van's petitioned the court to allow them, and the court ordered that the money in the seperate account BELONGS TO THE CUSTOMER, until it is transfered to Van's based on specific terms and timeline.

A second reason to segregate incoming funds is to make it easy for the court and Trustee to be able to see the new book of business coming in the door as deposits. I.E. is it still a "going concern". Remember the court has to approve the exit plan (due in March). If the Judge is not happy he can pull the plug to prevent further bleeding and stop further creditor risk at the behest of the Trustee. Then its sell time to the highest bidder or lock the doors and take the $3 mill in the bank and pay off the $26 mill in debt or 11 to 12 cents on the dollar. So lets hope for success, even if a person refuses to do anymore business with Vans, at least if they succeed you should get your money back over time. At the end of the day, 2 pieces in play; 1. Liquidate inventory for cash with higher prices, thus the reworked existing contracts. 2. Still be able to sell product to new customers and have an idea of what future cash flow / income will look like. We know a ball park figure was 70% contract recapture/reprice rate was the goal. Everybody needs to understand a large part of the problem has been time between order/deposit and goods shipped / paid in full. Fewer orders or a shrinking customer base may lower income and net profit but improve cash flow. Cash flow is what is needed today to clear the back log. Lycoming's poor performance has exacerbated the problem IMHO. I can pretty well say Cash is King and it would not surprise me to find out there is a smart person whose job it is everyday to say ship this / buy that with nothing more dramatic than what generates the most positive cash flow for the day, irrespective of when an order was placed or how many dollars it is. This strikes some as "not fair" but in the end as cold and hard and cruel as it may sound Vans has to make decisions in their best interest for today, regardless of what my or anyone else's emotions or desires are.

 

[JohnBruns]

I'm thankful that I have a hobby to keep me busy in retirement
I'm thankful that Vans is still in business and shipping kits and parts
I'm thankful that Dick VanGrunsven cares enough about his legacy and his customers to lend a failing company millions of dollars
I'm thankful that Dick's wife (and likely their children) support his decision
I'm thankful my laser cut parts were replaced
I'm thankful my engine will still be far less expensive than buying directly from somewhere else
I'm thankful Vans has very inexpensive shipping charges when I just need a few nuts and bolts
I'm thankful Vans lets me pick up my kits at the factory rather than pay freight shipping
I'm thankful Vans has knowledgable support staff that will give me free advice and support
I'm thankful Greg and many others at Vans are working overtime to help us
I'm thankful we get updates even though they are less frequent than we'd like
I'm thankful Vans has attorneys that understand bankruptcy law and can represent their (and our) interests in court
And finally, I'm thankful for Doug and VAF. My build would be far more difficult and costly without all the support here

We have much to be thankful for. I could add many more to this list but I need to get back out to fitting my HS tip fairing....

Here! Here! There IS a lot to be thankful for!

 

[JohnBruns]

Mine was more than I expected because when I ordered in April 2023, they weren't charging me sales tax. Since then, they started charging sales tax on all my web orders. They made my original order look like it had sales tax in it, and then put my 6% (rotax) increase on top of that. So, it was basically a double whammy to my out of pocket, bringing my total increase from when I originally ordered close to 14% more.

It's irrelevant whether Van's collects sales tax or not. Ohio, like my home state, requires you to pay use tax if an out-of-state vendor doesn't charge you sales tax. It's a wash!

 

[Brantel]

It's irrelevant whether Van's collects sales tax or not. Ohio, like my home state, requires you to pay use tax if an out-of-state vendor doesn't charge you sales tax. It's a wash!

Yep! Same in TN. I am betting that eventually every state with a sales tax will require out of state vendors to charge sales tax up front. The reason is that almost nobody pays the use tax they are supposed to be paying. Most states that have a use tax will come after you when you register your airplane with the FAA.

 

[HCM]

I purchased an RV-7A kit that is close to completion with all parts except instruments and engine. I placed an order and 25% deposit on an engine 8/2024. Like most of you I'm trying to make a decision, with little info, to agree to the new terms or cancel. The price increase is not major. Delivery timing is a big concern as I am not willing to wait a year or more. Van's originally told me 6 to 9 months. I may keep the order but search for a core/rebuilt as I just did this with my Tiger. I have been hearing that there is no cancellation after signing the agreement but the sample document online says "If Buyer cancels this Agreement by Buyer Termination Notice received by Seller more than three (3) business days after the Acceptance Date and before Seller issues the Crating Notice, then Seller will refund the First Deposit less $1,000 (One Thousand Dollars). This refund will be processed by Seller within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation notice." Of you that have signed the new agreement, is this clause still in place? If so, I would place the order and decide later. Could end up with 2 engines and sell one. But the risk of chapter 7/loss of deposit is basically the same for me whether I place a new order or cancel at this time.

 

[andrepew]

I purchased an RV-7A kit that is close to completion with all parts except instruments and engine. I placed an order and 25% deposit on an engine 8/2024. Like most of you I'm trying to make a decision, with little info, to agree to the new terms or cancel. The price increase is not major. Delivery timing is a big concern as I am not willing to wait a year or more. Van's originally told me 6 to 9 months. I may keep the order but search for a core/rebuilt as I just did this with my Tiger. I have been hearing that there is no cancellation after signing the agreement but the sample document online says "If Buyer cancels this Agreement by Buyer Termination Notice received by Seller more than three (3) business days after the Acceptance Date and before Seller issues the Crating Notice, then Seller will refund the First Deposit less $1,000 (One Thousand Dollars). This refund will be processed by Seller within 30 days of receipt of the cancellation notice." Of you that have signed the new agreement, is this clause still in place? If so, I would place the order and decide later. Could end up with 2 engines and sell one. But the risk of chapter 7/loss of deposit is basically the same for me whether I place a new order or cancel at this time.

The new agreement has no clause for cancellation or deposit refund of any nature. It appears you are bound to the sale if you sign it.

 

[lr172]

I don't think that is the case. Van's petitioned the court to allow them, and the court ordered that the money in the seperate account BELONGS TO THE CUSTOMER, until it is transfered to Van's based on specific terms and timeline.

Just because the judge ordered them to use a separate account does not necessarily mean it is not their asset to do with as they please. You may be right, but that is a question for an attorney. Once they are out of chap 11, there is no court involvement. The law and judges instructions are full of twists and turns with all sorts of case law and precedence.. The reality is that the bank account holding the money is registered to vans and therefore a Vans asset, so not sure how anyone could make an argument that the $ belongs to anyone but vans. With an escrow, the $ is held in an account registered to someone other than either of the parties involved in the transaction with legal documents spelling out condition for asset transfer.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

The new agreement has no clause for cancellation or deposit refund of any nature. It appears you are bound to the sale if you sign it.

Why not just add one to it yourself, sign it, and send it to them? Then if they sign it, you have an agreement. There's no law that says you can't make any changes to a proposed contract you want, then sign it and see if the other side agrees. Right?

 

[Cholley6]

For what it's worth, although not an engine. I was asked for final payment on an rv-10 fuse kit and told the lead time for crating was about 5-6 weeks. That was about 3 weeks ago and my tracking number says it will be here Thursday.

Unless they are asking yall for more money now. The amount of time lag between sending your final money and receiving what you are sending it for seems to be minimal.