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C'mon Dynon, What's Up?

R

RatMan

Well Known Member
O.K. Dynon guys, you kinda, sorta, mentioned in another thread that something new is about to be in Kitplanes in a few days. As you can see by the time this was posted, it's 3AM and I'm lookin for Dynon news. Throw me a bone will ya?

I can't think of a better place to announce a new autopilot than right here!

C'mon, only a couple-a-thousand readers here would be interested. I've already got the trays installed for a D100 and a D180 as well as a spot for a HS box, do I need to allow for another tray? Is it a seperate box? Intergrated into one of the EFIS's? Have it's own GPS? What kind of servos?

You can tell us. We wont tell anyone else.
 
RE:Sweet BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like a sweet set up .....but......my panel is complete.......Trio AP coupled to the Dynon HS34/D100/D180/GNS 430 WASS. I am happy with what I have but the integration of the Dynon Altitude/Roll is very appealing not to mention all the great service/updates/help They provide. Why their almost as good as the folks at TRIO:D

Frank @ SGU & 1L8 RV7A....last 1001 details
 
They have my attention. I want to see more, but this could really change what I had in mind...
 
Wow, that's very cool...how does it fly GPS headings, though? I didn't see any mention in the ad about GPS connectivity.
 
Our EFIS units have taken in GPS for years now. We use it to display winds aloft, ground track, fuel economy, a full HSI, and other stuff. So if a GPS is hooked to your EFIS, you can fly GPS track or GPS NAV.

If you have a NAV hooked to the EFIS, you can fly that too ;) Anything that shows up on the HSI can be flown.
 
Can't wait...

... for Sun-N-Fun to see all the new toys! We have a standard 6-pack of flight instruments, Van's engine instruments and no-autopilot in the -8 right now, but really want EMS to lean and monitor properly, recapture some panel space, and to provide alarm functions. Maybe this is the setup! Dual EFIS and autopilot! Sounds pretty good! I really don't mind hand flying even on long trips. Two fingers and a little pressure is all it takes. But it would be nice to set the A/P so I could get a decent look at the maps and weather once in a while.

Now if I could find a quality shop with EFIS experience for reasonable (not necessarily cheap) price, I'd do it! ;) Maybe a trip up to Stein's is in order! Maybe a couple of days vacation at a shop so I can do a lot of the work myself under adult (!) supervision!

I'd do it myself but really don't want to have the -8 down for long with flying season reportedly onthe way. It's been a long, very cold, very snowy winter.
 
If I'm understanding this correctly, I can add the two servos to my EFIS-D10A/EMS-D10 setup for $1500 and get all that? Wow....and to think I almost ordered an altitude hold for $1700 last week! Glad I decided to wait until SnF. I love my Trio, but this has my attention big time.
 
You are understanding correctly. If you already have a Dynon EFIS, each servo is $750. No other expenditure is needed (except maybe mounting kits).

If you install a roll servo, you can fly magnetic heading, GPS track, or anything that shows up on the HSI - GPS, VOR, or the Localizer component of an ILS (glideslope will require the $1500 AP76 Advanced Autopilot Module). The magnetic heading and GPS track follow the heading bug, while the NAV mode flies whatever is configured on the HSI.

If you have an HS34, we will fly GPS steering from your GPS, but I'll admit that may be one software release out.

If you install a pitch servo, you get altitude hold, as well as the ability to actually choose the altitude you want to go to based on the alt bug. Whenever you engage the AP, it holds the current altitude, but after that you can modify the target. So if ATC says climb to 10,500, just spin the alt bug to 10,500; the AP will climb or descend there at a vertical speed that you have selected in the setup menu. It also has minimum and maximum airspeed limits, so it will hold at those speeds instead of stalling or hitting Vne.

The AP74 makes some of the interface to all of this nicer than using the soft keys on the EFIS, but it's not required for any function of the AP. It does allow you to choose which mode the AP will be in before you engage it, and it gives you voice outputs and dimming, so it has some secondary features as well. The AP74 is also available in horizontal format.

For those of you concerned about your autopilot being independent of your EFIS, we hear you, which is why a whole second EFIS and two servos is still only $3700. That's even better than a standalone AP, since you end up with a full backup EFIS in that case, and it's still less than you'd pay for just the AP in most cases.
 
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Will the servos be installable in a plane that is already finished like the TT? Can the roll servo be installed thru the inspection hole? How will the pitch servo be mounted?
 
The servos will mount anywhere a TruTrak mounts. They have the same mounting hole locations and the same outer dimensions as a TT servo. They are direct drop-ins from a mechanical mounting standpoint. Unless our research shows that there's a better location, our install kits will be locating them in the same place as TT.

We've done our best to design a servo that's improves on other designs, while still remaining economical and robust.. A Castellated nut holds on the arm. They're light. The gears inside are stainless steel. The internal electronics are highly redundant to prevent any kind of failure that would put any uncommanded motion into your controls. It only require a few wires to be run. Lots of small things that we fell makes the best possible servo that we could design.
 
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Wow. You guys have pretty much killed my grandiose plan to roll my own pitch axis autopilot using the D-10A to feed data to a microcontroller which fiddled with the pitch trim.

If the autopilot is not engaged, do the servos put any drag at all on the flight controls, or do they release completely?

If I don't have an AP74, is there a display of vertical and lateral autopilot modes available full time on a D-10A, or are the modes only seen if you dig down into the menus?

If I have two D-10As, and no AP74, what happens if the D-10A that is controlling the autopilot fails? Does the autopilot automatically switch to the other D-10A, or does it disengage, or does it remain engaged, but with nothing controlling it, or something else?

How much do the servos weigh?

How much flight testing have you done in an aircraft with a large CG range like an RV-8? It is a real trick to come up with a set of gains that will provide acceptable performance at forward CG without over controlling at aft CG.
 
Up, or Down.

Wow-----this sounds like a really sweet setup.

Not too sure if this raises the bar up a notch, or throws a gauntlet down.

It will be interesting to see how others in the field react to this.

I agree with TODR, the buying public is going to be the winner on this one.
 
Cytoxin,
The system is not quite for sale yet. We expect to be shipping servos in a few months. As for brackets, that will depend on the aircraft you have. Just like other manufacturers, we won't have every bracket the first day we ship. We expect to have most RV's covered.

Kevin,
The servos are like TruTrak servos, so they have very slight drag when not engaged. There is no clutch mechanism. This is a trade off between mechanical simplicity, weight, and reliability vs. drag.

With and without an AP74, the AP mode is always displayed in the lower right corner of the EFIS, and in the lower left is your alt and heading bug settings. The bugs also change from hollow to filled if they are being flown, just like big iron.

At first release, the AP will be controlled by one EFIS. If that EFIS fails, the servo will turn off within 1/4 second. The second EFIS will not be able to control the servo unless you go through DSAB setup in flight. Of course, you still have the second EFIS. It's not more redundant than a standalone AP, but it's not less either.

Not sure how much the servos weigh off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up on Monday. All I know is it is less than a TT servo of equivalent size.

We're testing in lots of wacky airplanes, so I hope our algorithm does great in lots of situations. The EFIS clearly gives us tons of information to assist with the AP. Not sure I can directly say we've tested in an RV-8 at two CG's at this point, but the AP is born out of a sister company we have that makes UAV's, so we do have some real experience here.
 
but the AP is born out of a sister company we have that makes UAV's, so we do have some real experience here.
Click to expand...

Oh great! Some guy in a trailer in Yuma is going to take over my autopilot!!:eek::D
 
CraigC said:
Oh great! Some guy in a trailer in Yuma is going to take over my autopilot!!:eek::D
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, it's $2000 more if you actually want to set the bugs yourself instead of that guy doing it from 1800 miles away. The guy in Yuma gots to get paid somehow.
 
DYNON - THANKS MUCH AND WHAT'S NEXT?

You guys already have my attention and will have my business - This is the icing on the cake as far as I am concerned. Thanks very much:cool::cool::cool:.

We will all be needing the new FAA mandated ELT in a few years - please consider that need. It would be awesone to have an 'all Dynon panel hooked up with a wiring loom set up manufactured by you. Kind of like a gift from Heaven. Thanks again.
 
Sooooooooooooo

So what am i supposed to do with the trutrack adi 2 mounting brackets and wire harness I just bought. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

If we could only get the engine guys to compete like the efis guys we would all be just as happy as can be. Great products, good competition and fair prices...seems like the way it should be.
 
Keep 'em

If I read a couple of associate posts right, the TT harness and servo mounts that both you and I installed will be either dead-nuts on or capable of in situ modification for use with EFIS/Dynon servos. My D180 thanks you.

Two servos + AP74 = 2 axis AP (when added to my D180) for $1950

THis really does make my day.

Rick 90432
 
dynonsupport said:
The servos are like TruTrak servos, so they have very slight drag when not engaged. There is no clutch mechanism. This is a trade off between mechanical simplicity, weight, and reliability vs. drag.
Click to expand...
Drat. What is the spec for the max torque that it can take to turn the servo input if the autopilot is not engaged, and what is the total angular range of the servo input? I'd like to crunch some numbers to understand how much stick force it would take to overcome the servo drag.
 
If I remember right, the drag the servo that is used in most RV's has is about 2 in/lb.

Technically, the servo can spin around all day. It has no rotational limits. In the RV, most installs use an arm and then a pushrod to a bellcrank, which means that you can't have more than 180 degrees of spin or it goes over center. In reality, you end up with something much closer to 100 degrees.

As Mel mentioned, the drag is not something you generally notice when in flight, as is evidenced by the lack of people complaining about this with TT systems.
 
Kevin Horton said:
Drat. What is the spec for the max torque that it can take to turn the servo input if the autopilot is not engaged, and what is the total angular range of the servo input? I'd like to crunch some numbers to understand how much stick force it would take to overcome the servo drag.
Click to expand...


Kevin, if the servos are indeed very similar to the TT units, you will not feel any drag through the controls in flight. The servo drag is much too low to be felt over the normal flight loads.

I prefer a servo with a clutch that totally disengages the geartrain (Trio), but the TruTrak servos work fine. I've flown both.
 
Here is a scale pic of the AP74 for those like me possibly replanning there panel:

2003305996595109797_rs.jpg
 
Congratulations Dynon

Thanks for making this experimental aircraft world more exciting. See you at Sun N Fun!
 
UAVs?

Dynonsupport,

Can I ask the name of the UAV company? I work at a UAV manufacturer (Aurora Flight Sciences Corp.) and that's why I'm asking.

Thanks,
Martin
 
Wow!

First, thanks Kevin for the link to the ad, that really helped this morning.

Thanks for the info DynonDude! Didn't really surprize me, nor did it really change my plans for my panel. I have been planning a Dynon panel for about 2 years now and it just keeps getting better. I expect the AP will look really good right next to the HS34.

Congrats on the autopilot, now you'll be getting even more of my money.

Not to take away from this great news but...
I really need matching audio panel next to my HS and AP. I know, it's probably childs play for you guys but a good simple audio panel with several inputs and pushbutton switching tied into the DSAB at a Dynon price would be great! Perhaps even a GIB panel for volume and source selection. Whatta ya think?
 
It's the promise of things like this that helped make my decision to go with Dynon. Yay rah go team.
 
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Rivethead said:
It's the promise of things like this that helped make my decision to go with Dynon. Yea rah go team.
Click to expand...

Congratulations to Dynon.
Nice AP setup.
Those servos look nearly identical to ours (TT must have started something).
Look us up at Osh...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Newby question:

Do the servos work by moving the control surface or by moving a trim tab on the control surface?
 
Thanks.

By your response I take it that both styles are out there.

I think I can understand the benefit to a simple aileron trim system which is separate from the bank axis of an AP, but is it common to have separate systems for electric pitch trim and the altitude axis of an AP?
 
jhausch said:
Newby question:

Do the servos work by moving the control surface or by moving a trim tab on the control surface?
Click to expand...
They work by moving the bell-cranks. The pitch servo attaches to the elevator bell-crank behind the baggage compartment and the roll servo attaches to one of the aileron bell-cranks (left or right, your choice) to control roll.
 
jhausch said:
Thanks.

By your response I take it that both styles are out there.

I think I can understand the benefit to a simple aileron trim system which is separate from the bank axis of an AP, but is it common to have separate systems for electric pitch trim and the altitude axis of an AP?
Click to expand...

Yes most planes with a pitch AP also have some sort of pitch trim system.

Some AP's also have trim sensing servos which annunciate the need to add some trim to stop the servo from having to work so hard to hold alt.

Trim is also usefull when you are not using the AP.
 
This is great news, I hadn?t planned on installing an AP but now must reconsider. I already have a Dynon D100 EFIS installed so the addition of the AP would be fairly simple (I think). The TruTrack AP servo?s require 5 control wires each, the pitch servo an additional ?out of trim sense? wire so a total of 11 signal wires. On my Dynon EFIS interface plug I can only find 8 unused pins on the DB25 connector. Wonder how they will be getting the necessary signals out of the EFIS for the Servo?s?
 
Martin,
UAV company is Dara Aviation.

Jhaush,
As was mentioned, these move the actual control surfaces. Not all planes have the ability to fly really precisely using just a trim tab, and few planes have aileron trim tabs, so moving the actual surfaces works for all airplanes, and uses the same servo for both axes.

647jc,
The servos need 5 wires to be run. TT uses 6 or 7 (for trim sensing), so we can always use the wires run for a TT.

Our wires are:
Power (2A)
Ground
DSAB-A
DSAB-B
Disconnect

DSAB-A and DSAB-B are the two wires that hook to your EFIS. This is our network that hooks between EFIS, EMS, control panels, and servos. You can put as man servos as we can come up with on the same two DSAB wires. We control the servo in a very different way than TT, so we don't need as many wires as they do.
 
pitch servo

dynonsupport,
Will the pitch servo have trim sensing or possible automatic pitch trim ?
 
To DynonSupport

dynonsupport said:
.......

647jc,
The servos need 5 wires to be run. TT uses 6 or 7 (for trim sensing), so we can always use the wires run for a TT.

Our wires are:
Power (2A)
Ground
DSAB-A
DSAB-B
Disconnect

DSAB-A and DSAB-B are the two wires that hook to your EFIS. This is our network that hooks between EFIS, EMS, control panels, and servos. You can put as man servos as we can come up with on the same two DSAB wires. We control the servo in a very different way than TT, so we don't need as many wires as they do.
Click to expand...

To DynonSupport...

I presume that the Disconnect Line/Signal is a momentary contact (short to ground?) and comes from a switch somewhere, and not a connection to the EFIS...

Is this correct?

Also, do you have a connector, or are you going with the "dangling wires" approach at the servo end?

thanks for the updates...

gil A ... making harness schematics now....
 
HT1,
Pitch sensing and auto trim are future possibilities, but these features won't be there on shipping day.

Gil,
The disconnect line is active when grounded. It does not connect to the EFIS at all. For extra protection, you can install a resistor to ground (30K I think, have to check), which lets us detect if the wire has broken so we can warn you before you attempt a disconnect and have no button. You can always disconnect using the EFIS menu of course.

The connection method of the servo is raw wires hanging out. We found that bolting a connector to the servo causes problems with some installs (like an RV wing), and everyone wants a different connector anyway.
 
So what do I need?

dynonsupport said:
You are understanding correctly. If you already have a Dynon EFIS, each servo is $750. No other expenditure is needed (except maybe mounting kits).

If you install a roll servo, you can fly magnetic heading, GPS track, or anything that shows up on the HSI (GPS, VOR, or ILS). The magnetic heading and GPS track follow the heading bug, while the NAV mode flies whatever is configured on the HSI.

If you have an HS34, we will fly GPS steering from your GPS, but I'll admit that may be one software release out.

If you install a pitch servo, you get altitude hold, as well as the ability to actually choose the altitude you want to go to based on the alt bug. Whenever you engage the AP, it holds the current altitude, but after that you can modify the target. So if ATC says climb to 10,500, just spin the alt bug to 10,500; the AP will climb or descend there at a vertical speed that you have selected in the setup menu. It also has minimum and maximum airspeed limits, so it will hold at those speeds instead of stalling or hitting Vne.

The AP74 makes some of the interface to all of this nicer than using the soft keys on the EFIS, but it's not required for any function of the AP. It does allow you to choose which mode the AP will be in before you engage it, and it gives you voice outputs and dimming, so it has some secondary features as well. The AP74 is also available in horizontal format.

For those of you concerned about your autopilot being independent of your EFIS, we hear you, which is why a whole second EFIS and two servos is still only $3700. That's even better than a standalone AP, since you end up with a full backup EFIS in that case, and it's still less than you'd pay for just the AP in most cases.
Click to expand...


I plan to build a 12 with a Dynon 180 and a Garmin 496 GPS. Your autopilot looks good and I have a question about functionality. Will the AP74 set things like heading, course, and altitude like the HS34 will, or do I need both? Also, when will your site have information about the autopilot? As you can see by the number of hits on this thread, there is a LOT of interest.
 
So can we couple

I mean to do complete coupled approaches, data fed from the GNS 430W?

if the data is all in one EFIS with control over the servos it would seem there is no reason why not?

Frank
 
Jim,
You never NEED the AP74. It makes things easier, but it doesn't really enable anything except mode pre-select.

If you're happy pressing a few buttons on the EFIS to turn the AP on and off, then no AP74 is needed.

The HS34 is pretty independent. It gets data into the EFIS, which the AP can use to fly. If the knob on the HS34 changes the heading and the AP is on, it will follow that.

We'll have some info on our website in a few days. Kitplanes doesn't technically show up at people's doors for a few days, so we weren't quite expecting the information to be out quite yet.

Frank,
There will be a more expensive control panel in the future that allows full coupled approaches. This gives you more buttons, and will enable things such as "fly heading X at Y altitude until intercepting the ILS".

You really need these buttons to have the right interface. Yes, it's "just" software that enables the additional functions, but all of TT's and Trio's higher models are "just" software as well. The new module will be called the AP76, is the same size as the HS34/AP74, and will be $1500. If you have an AP74, you will be able to upgrade to the AP76 for the price difference. The AP76 will not be shipping until later this year.
 
I am wondering if this system will anticipate course changes or will it fly through a heading then turn toward it.
 
If flying a normal GPS, it will fly until it hits the waypoint, then turn. All it can do is listen to the course the GPS is telling it to fly. The course doesn't change until the GPS considers the waypoint met, so this usually leads to an overshoot.

This is why they added GPS steering. We'll follow that signal, but this needs to come from a more expensive GPS (like a 430) over ARINC-429, which requires the HS34. GPS steering will be free, but it won't be in the first release.
 
A cheaper method, though requiring more programming would be to program the GPS with 2 turns of 1/2 the angle each. Program a 45* turn before the waypoint, then another 45* at the final course instead of one 90* turn. This would cut your overshoot in half.
 
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