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Deltahawkengines

mlw450802

mlw450802

Well Known Member
I would like to start a thread on this engine. I am looking for any substantive inside info on their situation. I have studied the website religiously but still am not completely comfortable with the promises.
I do believe they are real with respect to the piston ported diesel but I am worried relative to the aircraft application.

The Thielert seems to have it's ducks lined up a little better but the Deltahawk is very attractive to me due to its simplicity.

-
 
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mlw450802 said:
I have studied the website religiously but still am not completely comfortable with the promises.
-Michael L.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't fault the guys for not keeping promises because of the nature of the "program", but it certainly isn't coming along as quickly as someone following the project's progress might read into it.

Highflight
 
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I saw this engine in a recent issue of Kitplanes I think it was.
Wilksch Airmotive . It stated it was already flying and had logged about 200 hours in the plane in the last 12 months. It is only 120hp or 160hp but he said that customers were fitting it the the RV-7 -8 -9. Seems kinds of light on HP at 120hp, according to Vans published recomendations on some of these planes. He also said he was looking at producing a 200hp version. I would comment on the price as I remember it to be 22k for the 120hp version. The prices are listed on the webpage but, call me stupid, I don't know what a "?" is...
 
I tried to go to the site but it did not display.

The symbol looks like the symbol for Pounds (as in British "dollars").

If that is the case, with the current exhange rate, thsi seems to be a ****REALLY**** expensive engine at ?22,000 (or even at $22,000 as you can get a Lycoming equivalent for about that and you'd have 160 or 180 HP to boot!!)

Does it have a 5,000 hour TBO or something??

James




Supereri said:
I saw this engine in a recent issue of Kitplanes I think it was.
Wilksch Airmotive . It stated it was already flying and had logged about 200 hours in the plane in the last 12 months. It is only 120hp or 160hp but he said that customers were fitting it the the RV-7 -8 -9. Seems kinds of light on HP at 120hp, according to Vans published recomendations on some of these planes. He also said he was looking at producing a 200hp version. I would comment on the price as I remember it to be 22k for the 120hp version. The prices are listed on the webpage but, call me stupid, I don't know what a "?" is...
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, the 22k was in USD according to the article in Kitplanes. The site lists the 120hp version at 12K ? and the 160hp version at 16k ? both prices plus "VAT".

"(or even at $22,000 as you can get a Lycoming equivalent for about that and you'd have 160 or 180 HP to boot!!)"

Yes, but this is a deisel and runs Jet A. Maybe this is more important in Europe due to the cost of AvGas vs Jet A? It is also a turbcharged engine, so the performance might be better at altitude. The article also stated that the 120hp engine burns about 5.5gph, not sure how this compares to the Lycoming equivalent. The writer of the article mentioned that fuel burn for thier 30 minute flight was 2.6 gallons.
 
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mlw450802 said:
The wilksh airmotive diesel is interesting also but different from Deltahawk. The Deltahawk is US and starts at 160 hp. It also is turbo/supercharged and retails for $23,500 USD.

www.Deltahawkengines.com
Click to expand...
Group,
The Deltahawk is flying in Velocity. (Conventional upright) Deltahawk has a running inverted-v not yet flying. The engine is a 2-stroke diesel so it MUST have a boosted (supercharged) start. They have done a good development program and the engine seems to be running well. A bit pricy.
The Wilksich is a 2-stroke diesel also and is also supercharged/turbocharged. The 3 cylinder is at about the same level of testing as the Deltahawk. The engine was built inverted to start with.
I believe the Deltahawk will be a good engine, albeit full aircraft priced. If you don't want to fabricate anything stay with a Lyc. Either of these engines will require engineering to put in. One thing no one mentions EXCEPT Deltahawk is that the venting of your tanks needs to be different for Diesel/Jet-A. SO there is a lot to learn about any of the Diesel apps.
Bill Jepson
 
It's noted on their website that a major milestone was reached on January 10: They reset their website hit counter to zero.

That must be pretty important if it was determined that news like that needed it's own announcement and all. :D

There's been no news since then, but I'm sure they're working hard on something.

Not really interested, but it's fun to watch "new technology" when it comes up.
 
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Deltahawk RV-7A

Hey all this is my first post but am interested in the subject. I Will be ordering my RV-7 Emp kit next month. Like most poeple on here I have been researching all engine combos for what seems like forever and Im sure my opinion will keep on changing as time goes. I did contact Deltahawk to ask them if anyone was working on firewall forward kits for the RV's. The response was to take my email address down and forward it to someone they say is building a 7A who is about to install his deltahawk and see if he will respond to me. If anyone out there knows of anyone who is putting one in I would like to here what was involved.
Thanks
Tim Piscitelli
 
120 HP Wilksch engine

I spoke to Wilksch early this week as I have a deposit down on a 120 HP engine for my RV-9A. Wilksch are now producing engines at around 3 per week and hope to increase the production rate further. They have 2 engines flying, one in a Europa and one in a Thorp T211, a LongEze installation has just had its ground runs. At least two people in the UK are progressing with 9A installations, and with any luck at least one should be flying this summer. There are RV installations in progress for the 160HP, but 160 HP engine is not scheduled for production until later this year.

European fuel costs make these engines very attractive. Here in the UK 100LL is around $7 / gallon and AVTUR around $2.5 / gallon.

Dave
 
While Deltahawk would have been my first choice for a jet-a fueled engine, it appears they are struggling with some final hurdles before actual production.
I was just on thielert's Centurion site and they have the 1.7 certificated and currently available. The weight looks great, the HP (135) is probably perfect for the 9-a but the price at 25,000 euros is a bit much.

Another plus might be only a 25 hour flyoff time...

-Mike
 
mlw450802 said:
While Deltahawk would have been my first choice for a jet-a fueled engine, it appears they are struggling with some final hurdles before actual production.
I was just on thielert's Centurion site and they have the 1.7 certificated and currently available. The weight looks great, the HP (135) is probably perfect for the 9-a but the price at 25,000 euros is a bit much.

Another plus might be only a 25 hour flyoff time...

-Mike
Click to expand...

Note also Mike, There is no TBO for the Thielert engine. They are a run-out and replace engine right now!

Bill Jepson
 
Incase anyone is interested, I e-mailed deltahawk asking about their progress.
Here is their response.

"The DeltaHawk engine is in production with the first non certified 160HP engines available by May 2005, this first batch have all been sold.
The 200HP will be available by October 2005, however all production until December 2005 has been allocated to buyers.

Currently you will need to allow up to 6 months between a signed purchase agreement and the availability of the production engine.

We hope that within the next 12mths that the engine will obtain it's FAA certification."
 
very promising

Very promissing with the high price of gas these days! I hope they fix the engine mount points so that it can be mounted in an RV easier...especially the -A versions. I might just be able to use one of these by the time I am ready for the engine. Guess I can order the finishing kit without the cowling and nose gear etc.
 
mlw450802 said:
I would like to start a thread on this engine. I am looking for any substantive inside info on their situation. I have studied the website religiously but still am not completely comfortable with the promises.
I do believe they are real with respect to the piston ported diesel but I am worried relative to the aircraft application.

The Thielert seems to have it's ducks lined up a little better but the Deltahawk is very attractive to me due to its simplicity.

-
Click to expand...

I have been interested in a diesel engine for over 25 years starting with Zoch. The experience has been like a carrot on a stick. They show up at the air shows each year, talk to lots of people but where are airplanes with a diesel engine? Four years ago, Delta Hawk representatives stated there would be a fire wall forward kit for the RV. But it has not appeared yet.

If you guys want to fly in this century, don't count on it with a diesel. As great as the concept is, it may never be more than talk. It is a mystery as to why it is so difficult to get these engines in an airplane and flying.

dd
RV-7A N707DD
Subaru H6
190+ hours
 
I think you're wrong on this one David. DH is making real progress. It has been very slow, but things are coming together, they have been doing real testing and getting real results. Several of their engines are being tested at this time including one in a helicopter. Zoch's problems are irrelevent. You have three companies currently flying diesels, SMA, Thielert, and Wilksch.

"If you guys want to fly this century, don't count on it with a diesel" That's a pretty bold statement considering there are 95 years left in this century.

Tobin
 
tobinbasford said:
I think you're wrong on this one David. DH is making real progress. It has been very slow, but things are coming together, they have been doing real testing and getting real results. Several of their engines are being tested at this time including one in a helicopter. Zoch's problems are irrelevent. You have three companies currently flying diesels, SMA, Thielert, and Wilksch.

"If you guys want to fly this century, don't count on it with a diesel" That's a pretty bold statement considering there are 95 years left in this century.

Tobin
Click to expand...
Doubly wrong in fact,
The Deltahawk is FLYING now in a velocity. They are installing several other apps NOW including the inverted version, (the most universally useable package) They are starting production NOW. I don't think people who haven't created a project on their own can understand how hard it can be to establiish an infastructure for manufacturing a complex machined/cast/assembled product. Wiltich (sic) is flying now. Started production. Zoche is a wildcard I not sure that they will ever release anything! A very weird guy.
I'd love to bet the farm that a good diesel package will be available this century!

RotaryRV-10
 
David-aviator said:
It is a mystery as to why it is so difficult to get these engines in an airplane and flying.
Click to expand...

it's hard to exaggerate the magnitude of bringing a COMPLETELY new engine design to life

add to that the challenge of making a diesel light enough to fly yet strong enough to hold together

the DH is a clean-sheet design from a very small company. it runs constantly. it flies often. it works very well.

like airplanes, it's the last 10% that takes 90% of the time.

Slow development? yes
Longer than planned? for sure
Honest about status? yes

a new engine in the 200hp class can EASILY cost $100 million...and that's BEFORE you start selling motors or designing installations.

Even Subaru took many years and several hundred million dollars with scores of engineers to develop the H6. Egg only has to package it....and look how hard THAT was to get it right.

It's a LOT harder than it looks. As Jan would readily agree.
 
Used in Drones

I have spent about 2 hours on the phone with these folks in the last few weeks and they are totally stoked as a company.

They are in production and the rest of this year is sold out. I believe they said they are opening a new window of orders in July with delivery in the first quarter.

I also spent a lot of time with an engineer who is in the test planes. One thing to remember is that these engines are liquid cooled and can run at 100% for cruise. That is what they are designed for. With the supercharger at 11,000 feet and 100% hp the planes are going to really hit great cruise performance.

Currently they are producing the 160s and 180s. The 200s need more work so I wouldn't expect those out till late next year at the earliest. However, because of the supercharger they are out performing the Lyc 200hp at cruise with the 160 mounted on the Velocity right now. This was directly from the guy flying the Lyc equipped plane.

In addition, they are using these on military drones. That only will probably ensure their success. Nothing like the military to pay for things like this and the need to have it home grown.

Finally, they indicated that the FAA is very interested in having a certified diesel built in the USA. They indicated that this is a 2 year process though to certification.

Anyway, maybe they are lying through their teeth and I am a fool but I blelieve the these guys and hope they make it. Its time for new engines and advancements in the industry.
 
I believe them too and I'm about as excited as I've been in a long time about a new "real" aircraft powerplant. I've been in contact with them via email, and I hope to some day fly behind a DH. They still need the FWF kit for the RV and to get a bunch out flying and build hours and history. In the meantime I'll keep flying my IO-360 and when it hits TBO, hopefully it'll be replaced with a DH.

Tobin
 
Wilksch diesel.

I've just had the Wilksch factory call me up to find out how soon I need delivery of the 120 Hp engine for my 9A (they would prefer to ship according to customer need rather than strict purchase order). They're currently shipping 2 engines per week and are working on ramping up production.

Unfortunately there are no customer engines flying yet, but there are high hopes of at least 2 customer aircraft flying (one a 9A) at the PFA rally in early July.

Dave
 
To you who's been in contact with DH, are there any hints about when the first customer will get his engine? Or about when he's airborne? :)

The Q&A on their website is kind of ambiguous about a FWF kit. I don't know much about what is supposed to go in one in the first place, so hopefully some of you can embellish on this for me:

The standard engine package delivered for the purchase price above will contain starter, supercharger, oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, all engine-to-engine lines, turbo charger, and the engine-to-turbocharger exhaust system.
Click to expand...

What else would you need for an RV? (apart from a modified cowl and the mount)

Is it likely they would conduct in-house tests and then provide drawings/specs for engine mount and cowl, so you could get it manufactured somewhere else? There is quite a lot of combinations to approve even if you're just providing plans, but considering the power/weight range of the first line, there must be a pretty big market amongst RVs...

My plan is to equip an RV-8 with something between 160hp/fixed pitch and 200hp/constant speed (depending on which lottery I win) but it's still some years away until I can order...better keep an eye on the anti-matter propulsion industry as well. :D

Anyway, diesel is definately on the rise here in Europe. DA40s powered by Centurion 1.7s (135hp) have been certified for almost 3 years. Centurion is coming into the experimental market "soon" ( :rolleyes: ) but I must say the letters TBR instead of TBO causes a slight frown.
 
Ola,

You're still going to need some type of FWF kit, much like Van's puts out for the Lyc but probably with more stuff. The most obvious additional items are going to be cooling system, radiators, oil coolers, and such. The engine mount will need to be special made, or take the Van's stock mount and modify it like they do with the Eggaru.

Not sure about how many customers have taken delivery or when first flights will happen but DH did tell me that their original FWF developer fell through and so they're working with a new one.

I get the feeling talking to them, (and this is a good thing) that they don't want or like to say too much about anything because they don't want to give any false promises. They seem to be releasing info as it becomes available through actual testing instead of making claims that then just don't materialize. All of this is of course just my opinion, but these guys come across as really reputable.

Tobin
 
Haha, I completely forgot about the radiators and cooling. :eek:

As mentioned, it's a long time until I make a decision on such things, it will be interesting to follow their development. With several tantalizing Jet A1 powerplants just over the horizon, I'm glad I don't have to make any decision soon!
 
Ola said:
Haha, I completely forgot about the radiators and cooling. :eek:

As mentioned, it's a long time until I make a decision on such things, it will be interesting to follow their development. With several tantalizing Jet A1 powerplants just over the horizon, I'm glad I don't have to make any decision soon!
Click to expand...

OLA, All the new acessable JetA engines are water cooled. The French certified aero diesel is almost 50% more than a comparable LYCOMING! OUCH! No wonder they aren't selling like hotcakes. Deltahawk is W/C, Wilsich is W/C. Zosche is vaporware, and the builder clkaims he won't sell to homebuilders! (WHAT AN IDIOT) Mistral, (rotary) is building a 2 rotor SPARK IGNITION "heavy fuel" JetA version of the engine they are certifing for gasoline. This engine is also water cooled.
Just FYI,

Rotary10-RV
 
Rotary10-RV said:
OLA, All the new acessable JetA engines are water cooled.
Click to expand...

I know, I meant I forgot to consider it when looking at the accessories that Deltahawk provided. Spec'ing, fabricating and fitting a custom cooling solution to ones own project is going to be a pain, hopefully they'll provide as much assistance as possible.
 
I was hoping to use a Deltahawk myself, but it was made very clear to me in a phone conversation that the company has absolutely no intent to support any particular type of aircraft installation directly. They want to sell engines; period.

I don't think of myself as an experimental builder in "that" way (as in "performing an experiment"), so not being willing to engineer my own installation from scratch, Mattituck will be getting my money this Fall.
 
Has anyone churned some grey matter over how to fit a custom cooling solution?

It's not a problem to get a suitable radiator from the range of vendors out there, but you may very well end up having to design your own cowl.

I don't have access to a 3D modelling application so my thinking is very much pen on napkin, but if one wants to go down that road it seems like the most attractive solution is a rectangular rad on the chin (narrow side forward) and a cowl that takes advantage of the reduced width where the baffle inlets would go) A few hundred gallons of coffee, a 3D app, wood jigs and some love of glassfibre will do the trick. :)

I did some cost calculations and in Norway you would recoup the additional cost (vs an overhauled Lyc) before 600 hours. But the additional work required is a whole different ballgame...as mentioned earlier I'm a long way from kit purchase so I might end up going with the most efficient engineering solution: Wait for someone else to do it first. :D

But toying with the idea is fun, hence my post.
 
To be perfectly honest, the cooling issue doesn't bother me that much. As you say, radiators aren't that hard, and modifying a cowling, while possibly daunting to a newbie like me doesn't seem insurmountable.

The real issue for me is the engine mount. I can't weld, so I'd have to get that done elsewhere. I definitely don't have the mechanical engineering expertise to design and analyze the mount to ensure it would be strong enough to withstand flight conditions and engine vibration. That is the only thing that is really holding me back from DeltaHawk. Having the engine come off in flight because I didn't have a properly designed mount is just not acceptable to me. I suppose I could pay someone to do it though...but I'm not sure how much that would cost.

PJ
 
PJSeipel said:
Having the engine come off in flight because I didn't have a properly designed mount is just not acceptable to me.
Click to expand...

And that's putting it mildly. :eek:

PJSeipel said:
I suppose I could pay someone to do it though...but I'm not sure how much that would cost.

PJ
Click to expand...

It also depends on how much Deltahawk will provide specs/drawings for it. I don't know how critical the RV firewall attachment points are.

I would assume, perhaps being naive, that since Deltahawk is aiming for the experimental market they would at the very least be helpful in providing exact specs for the fabrication. I mean, they know where the attachment points on the engine are and they hopefully know the CG and its static and dynamic load characteristics so if they're aiming to succeed in the experimental market this should be a central part of their service plan. edit to clarify: I mean per type.

While writing I browsed the Q&A, it says:

Also, it is our hope that builders of different aircraft will get together and develop mounts and firewall forward kits and share the information. DeltaHawk will do what we can to facilitate the sharing of information among builders.

...

Mounts will be developed as a part of aircraft-specific firewall-to-propeller packages.

...

Appropriate engine mounts will be developed with the aircraft manufacturers for each new installation, to achieve the best balance of all the considerations such as weight and balance, propeller position and cowling fit.

...

Q: We understand your engine will require a unique mount. Will the mounts be designed to attach to the same firewall hard points?

A: Yes.
Click to expand...

http://www.deltahawkengines.com/questi00.shtml


Some ambiguity, but I think it would be a major decision point for me if this was available. Spec'ing and building the cooling and accessories is challenge enough, learning this kind of stuff "on the job" is a bit much. With such a popular kitplane as the RV, and such a central point of their product, this should be high priority for the developers. I can't say I envy anyone diving into this business. :eek:

For myself, being a good distance from paying the money and loading up the garage it's easy to be enthusiastic about alternative solutions. My main priority in selecting Deltahawk over Lycoming is lower operating costs but if the initial cost and workload keeps me from even gaining a single hour, that point will quickly be moot. As I said, right now the break-even point vs an overhauled Lyc is just under 600 hours...if it creeps above 1000 it's going to affect building cashflow much worse than it will affect fuel bill damage 3 or 4 years after first flight.
 
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Deltahawk going to Oshkosh

For those going to Oshkosh, Deltahawk announced on their homepage that they will be putting up a booth.
It would be nice to get a pirep from those that go (I can't make it this year :( ) as far as what they bring, how it looks, any new information etc.

I'm still quite a ways from making an engine decision, so I've got plenty of time to let them get any 'issues' sorted out. Besides, 30% fuel savings and 60% extended range :D ! Who could pass that up? That is if the numbers holds up after a few customer owned ships have flown and posted numbers.

Thanks for helping a fellow out!
Marty
 
Funny pic from DH at Oshkosh:

743183664P7270087.JPG


Hehehe...


Also a nice update:

Oshkosh, 25 July 2005

Patience and persistence have finally come together to reward the visionaries. The first lot of pre-production DeltaHawk short blocks rolled off of the assembly line at KURT Manufacturing in Minneapolis the week before the opening of Oshkosh. This initial delivery was completed during the course of AirVenture 2005 and patient customers and development partners will soon realize the fruits of their optimism. Final assembly of the engines is now taking place at DeltaHawk?s Racine, Wisconsin facility. The initial full production run at KURT will take place in the November/December time frame 2005.

By the end of 2005 the Racine operation will be entirely dedicated to improvements to the V4 engine series and research and development for new engines, including the 300 to 450 horsepower V8 and final test of the V4 series engines. All manufacturing, assembly and final testing will be transferred to KURT Manufacturing in Minneapolis by the second quarter of 2006. Racine will remain the headquarters for Sales, Marketing and Product Support as well as R&D.

The owners, shareholders and employees of DeltaHawk wish to thank our many customers, supporters and fans for their loyal support for the last nearly 9 years. You have all been central to the ultimate success of DeltaHawk now illustrated by crates of shiny, new, precision-built engines stacked in our shop in Racine.

In particular, we wish to thank our initial customers for these first two batches of engines who, in addition to their patience and support, backed up their commitments with deposits. Our pledge to you is to provide the best product and product support possible.
Click to expand...

http://www.deltahawkengines.com/

Moving along quite nicely then. Would be cool to know if there will be any private installations at Osh 2006 and perhaps even better to know the URL of their build log. :)
 
another alternative

Ok people, I just joined this forum today, haven't earned my PPL yet and am researching several experimentals for a long term long distance commute. I'm completely green and so pardon any ignorance I may present.

Because I'm researching the best a/c for my needs and was introduced to the concept of using an experimental by someone building a Velocity, I started my research there.

I know a bit about cars and drive a VW TDI diesel [as does the Velo driver of whom I just spoke] and belong to a forum on TDIs. These combined interests lead me to a canard forum where a guy from Greece is well on his way to putting an auto engine into a Cozy [after he puts a smaller one into a Varieze]. The engine he has identified as the best candidate is the Sept/05 released D4D by Toyota. Here are its specs:

Toyota 2.2 D-4D Clean Power, in line 4 cylinders, 2.2 liter, 180HP, aluminum head and block, 160 kg ~ 350 lbs.

Max torque is ~ 2,750 rpms and fuel economy is out the roof.

He figures you can get a slightly used out of a wreck for ~3,500 or new ~5,000 usd.

My research on Cozys and their attributes lead me to finding similar a/c [function wise] and has led me to this site. I'm like a kid in a candy store - it'll take me a month to read all the good info here... Anyway, the like to the diesel conversion section at Canardaviation.com is:

http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net/forumdisplay.php?f=65

Kumatros [the Greek guy] has done tons or research already. One of his points is that in a year or 2 there will be plenty of these engines as Toyota is producing more in one year than certified engine producers make in 50. No difficulty with parts or heck even cheap replacement engines [just have a spare ready for replacement before rebuild].

What are those who are considering diesel [as am I] thoughts with this alternative?

Happy New Year,

John
 
Goals for an aircraft

Deuskid said:
Ok people, I just joined this forum today, haven't earned my PPL yet and am researching several experimentals for a long term long distance commute. ...
Click to expand...
The only stated goal you have is for a good, long distance commute, so it sounds like you want to get flying quickly. Doing your own engine conversion is a lot of work, and requires a lot of time. If you want to fly within a few years, stick to the standard engines that Van's recommends, or go with a fully engineered auto conversion package for the RV series, like the Eggenfellner.
 
rv8ch said:
The only stated goal you have is for a good, long distance commute, so it sounds like you want to get flying quickly. Doing your own engine conversion is a lot of work, and requires a lot of time. If you want to fly within a few years, stick to the standard engines that Van's recommends, or go with a fully engineered auto conversion package for the RV series, like the Eggenfellner.
Click to expand...

Step 1 of what I want is a good long distance commute.

Step 2 of what I want is a BETTER long distance commute. :D

I agree with your observations about it taking time and energy. All progress does. At some point there were no 'fully engineered auto conversion packages' .. someone had to do them. That is why I'm trying to initiate discussion.

We'd all be flying bi-planes if innovation stopped in early last century.

BTW, I've been considering a rotary too.

Best Regards,

John
 
John,

Two years ago I wouldn't be saying this, but today after flying my RV for two years I have to say it. Mickey is right. If you want to fly and fly soon, you have to go with either a standard lyc package or go with Eggenfellner subaru package. Anything else and I guarantee you'll be messing with that thing more than you'll be flying. I've seen it first hand with several types including rotaries. I have nothing against any other engines, I myself got all excited over the Deltahawk diesel, the honda engine, and others. But unless there is a well developed firewall foward package already developed, I personally wouldn't touch it. Now if tinkering is your thing, then by all means go with the Toyota. I've lost my excitement over Deltahawk not because of the engine, I think it's great. Rather I lost interest because so far there is no FWF kit, even though they'd claimed over a year ago that someone was working on one for the RV series. One other thing if I may give some advice. Building a Van's RV, which has highly evolved over the last 15yrs is not the same as designing your own FWF kit. I think some people get the idea that "hey I built this plane, I can certainly design my own FWF kit". They forget that they had detailed plans and detailed instructions, and CNC parts and prepunched skins, and etc, etc.
I'm just tyring to save you some heart ache. I could truely care less what engine you go with, so good luck.

Tobin
 
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deuskid said:
At some point there were no "fully engineered auto conversion packages' .. someone had to do them.
Click to expand...

there still is no such thing. never will be. if you started out to design an aircraft engine, you'd end up with.....an aircraft engine (lyco, radial, turbine, deltahawk, etc)...some are better than others, but they all started as aircraft engines. eggenfellner is an engineered "package" but not an "engineered aircraft" package. i love subies (i raced them). it's very good but time will tell whether it stands the rigors of aviation (i sincerely hope it does)

tobin is correct. nothing about an RV is "experimental"...zip, zilch, nada.
we are "assemblers" of well-engineered components. therein lies the key.

you neglected to mention the minor detail of attaching a propellor to the engine....making torque at 2700 rpm is meaningless if you can't attach a prop to the crankshaft....which you can't with an auto engine. this is the only guarantee i can give you: you will need a gearbox, and you will explode many engines along the way.

if you plan to "roll your own" engine, be advised to have expert engineering to design the engine mount AND be prepared to FULLY re-design the cooling system, crankshaft, PSRU, engine block, oil pressure system, oil cooling system, fuel delivery, accessory drives, electrical, ECU if any.....am i getting your attention?....and the weight of an auto-diesel is FAR heavier than anything else you can hang on an RV, so be prepared to address the CG problem with drastic airframe mods (aeronautical engineer)....which requires extensive flight testing, vibration analysis and flutter testing.

assuming all of this is at your disposal, along with copious amounts of money and YEARS before anything works, the next phase is propeller testing (big dollars, many more blown engines)

before you attempt any auto-conversions, call Jan Eggenfellner and Tracy Crook....they will gladly share the extent of the cost/effort to achieve anything close to "airworthy". also read the wealth of info on alternative engines elsewhere in this (and other) forums....this is a favorite subject of the community with no lack of opinions along with some VERY good advice/lessons learned from people who've been deeply involved in aviation engines for many years.

one final comment: you state a goal of "long term long distance commuting" which implies "reliability"...the single most difficult thing to achieve with engines in aircraft.

if you've read this far and are still interested/sane, by all means go for it. that's what "experimental" is all about. :)
 
ship said:
...[fully engineered auto conversion packages] ...there still is no such thing. never will be. if you started out to design an aircraft engine, you'd end up with.....an aircraft engine (lyco, radial, turbine, deltahawk, etc)...some are better than others, but they all started as aircraft engines. eggenfellner is an engineered "package" but not an "engineered aircraft" package. i love subies (i raced them). it's very good but time will tell whether it stands the rigors of aviation (i sincerely hope it does)
Click to expand...

You aren't quoting me here ... I had pasted a quote from RV8ch [the previous post] to reply to him. Actually you are making my point. Since there isn't 'an auto conversion package' [they are all 'custom'] then thinking outside the box and using the best engine available [diesel] makes sense. It is safer, more reliable, cheaper [in the auto version [heck the "TH" engine is simply a MB 1.7] burns safer and less expensive fuel...

ship said:
tobin is correct. nothing about an RV is "experimental"...zip, zilch, nada.
we are "assemblers" of well-engineered components. therein lies the key.

you neglected to mention the minor detail of attaching a propellor to the engine....making torque at 2700 rpm is meaningless if you can't attach a prop to the crankshaft....which you can't with an auto engine. this is the only guarantee i can give you: you will need a gearbox, and you will explode many engines along the way.
Click to expand...

Dieselhawk and others are already doing this. In fact so are those who use gas engines. There isn't anything magical about a redrive. Just engineering.
ship said:
if you plan to "roll your own" engine, be advised to have expert engineering to design the engine mount AND be prepared to FULLY re-design the cooling system, crankshaft, PSRU, engine block, oil pressure system, oil cooling system, fuel delivery, accessory drives, electrical, ECU if any.....am i getting your attention?....and the weight of an auto-diesel is FAR heavier than anything else you can hang on an RV, so be prepared to address the CG problem with drastic airframe mods (aeronautical engineer)....which requires extensive flight testing, vibration analysis and flutter testing.
Click to expand...

Yes you have my attention, and I don't plan on doing this solo. In fact there is a guy in Greece that is well on his way to designing one of these for a Cozy IV
ship said:
assuming all of this is at your disposal, along with copious amounts of money and YEARS before anything works, the next phase is propeller testing (big dollars, many more blown engines)
Click to expand...

gosh, I wonder how many times "it'll never fly Wilbur" was said

[/QUOTE]
before you attempt any auto-conversions, call Jan Eggenfellner and Tracy Crook....they will gladly share the extent of the cost/effort to achieve anything close to "airworthy". also read the wealth of info on alternative engines elsewhere in this (and other) forums....this is a favorite subject of the community with no lack of opinions along with some VERY good advice/lessons learned from people who've been deeply involved in aviation engines for many years.[/QUOTE]

I have been and referenced a like to canardaviation.com where there is quite a bit of discusion on this topic.

ship said:
one final comment: you state a goal of "long term long distance commuting" which implies "reliability"...the single most difficult thing to achieve with engines in aircraft.
Click to expand...

Diesels are more reliable than gassers. No ingitions to fail, no vapor lock. Runs on several types of fuel. You are making my point as to why a diesel makes sense.

ship said:
if you've read this far and are still interested/sane, by all means go for it. that's what "experimental" is all about. :)
Click to expand...

I did read this far... and ty for your insights. There is a new thread I just read re: experimentals being 'widow makers'. Not so but that is what a CIS told a student.

It'd be a shame to cease improvements just 'because it ain't been done that way before'

Cheers,

John
 
tobinbasford said:
John,

Two years ago I wouldn't be saying this, but today after flying my RV for two years I have to say it. Mickey is right. If you want to fly and fly soon, you have to go with either a standard lyc package or go with Eggenfellner subaru package. ...

I'm just tyring to save you some heart ache. I could truely care less what engine you go with, so good luck.

Tobin
Click to expand...

Thanks Tobin -

appreciate it. Truely, I'd love to have had someone already do this and I am certain I will not be the first to put a D4D for that reason [heck I'm not even thinking of building, I'm thinking of buying and modding]... If it were up to me to do this alone I wouldn't and wont. Lambros is already well on his way to doing something in a canard.

I do plan on starting out certified. I want to help with and promote development. I'm thinking expremental simply so I can retro-fit someday.

If 100 builders/flyers expressed interest then I bet there'd be some 'momentum' to get this thing off the ground [pun intended].

If not, it isn't gonna happen. I can live with that. I'd like to gauge the interest in a $5k new engine [much cheaper out of salvage yard] that is readily available [before conversion], more efficient [burns less fuel per horse power received], burns cheaper fuel, has fewer parts [and no ignition parts] to fail, can't experience vapor-lock....

If the potential weren't so great I wouldn't be asking..

Cheers,

John
 
John,
One other thing, if dead set on diesel, have you looked at the Thielert 1.7. It's nothing more than an adapted car engine and it's already flying with some impressive numbers. The website says there are plans for a FWF kit for certain models of experiementals. Granted it's a whole lot more money, but probably reliable and safe, and inexpensive to operate. That engine flying in the Diamond TwinStar yeilded the following numbers:

84% @ 12,500' - 183kts 6.1gph per engine
60% @ 12,500' - 157kts 4.0gph per engine

Pretty impressive.

Tobin
 
yep... that is what I was referring to when I wrote: "It is safer, more reliable, cheaper [in the auto version [heck the "TH" engine is simply a MB 1.7]"...

the only problem is the $$$ - it could be less $$$ than starting from scratch tho [or at least the ancillary equipment for it].

I do like the 180 [untweeked] hp of the D4D tho. Could go north of 200 w/ chipping and tweeking... :| zoom, zoom... :D

John
 
I'm wandering a bit off topic but I'd definately go canard if I could use unimproved fields with one. I don't want aerobatics but also don't want to limit my access since I'm looking to use as a commuter into Canada on a recurring basis. I want safety, frugality, speed and comfort [in that order but not much space between any of them].

I really don't see the reticence with alternative power sources. At some point EVERY engine was not standard. Like it or not GA isn't going to see much in the way of certifieds being developed. It will have to come from alternate sources for GA future. To resist it is to kill our interests.

John
 
Deuskid said:
I'd like to gauge the interest in a $5k new engine [much cheaper out of salvage yard]
Click to expand...
The problem is you're not talking about a $5k engine. A $5k engine doesn't do squat for you if you can't mount a prop on it and put it in the plane. If you figure in the cost of a redrive and engineering your own FWF kit, your $5k engine isn't really $5k anymore is it?
 
joe gremlin said:
The problem is you're not talking about a $5k engine. A $5k engine doesn't do squat for you if you can't mount a prop on it and put it in the plane. If you figure in the cost of a redrive and engineering your own FWF kit, your $5k engine isn't really $5k anymore is it?
Click to expand...


nope, your right... redrives already exist for diesels and gassers as does FWF engineering. I know this isn't a plug and play solution. It isn't a short term solution. It isn't an easy solution. It IS a POTENTIALLY vastly surperior solution. Total cost will still be less than a used 50 year old design technology engine when gas was plentyful cost $0.30 gallon and machining capabilites, computer chips and engine technology didn't exist.

You are right... this isn't going to fall from a tree.

To answer your question, I would guestimate that it would be ~ $9,000 - $12,000. Considerably less than a certified for a superior engine.

But it would seem there isn't much interest. Too bad.

jps
 
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