What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Mistral Rotary

Yukon said:
Chad,

I disagree. This thread started with someone making the unsupportable claim that Mistral rotaries have an sfc equal to Lycoming. I see no need to post my disagreement in the Traditional vs Alternative section, because in this case, I am not supporting Lycoming, just pointing out that it is highly unlikely that a rotary has the same sfc as a reciprocating engine. (see Van's flyoff).

John
I see your point John. This thread being over ten pages long now...I've forgotten how it started. I still agree with Ben that this isn't necessarily the correct forum for debating points, but they tend to wander about when they get this long.

Onward everyone! :cool:
 
Yukon said:
Ben,

Most people come to this website to make important decisions about how to equip their Rv. What better place to discuss Lycoming AD's, Superior sumps or
the voracious fuel appetite of the rotary engine? Are you saying that we shouldn't discuss the pros and cons of various aircraft engines, only how to install them???

John

I suggest discussion about sumps and ADs is probably more suited to the Traditional Engine section.
 
Lycoming issues

RV6EJGUY,
And that's where they are usually found. Sometimes thread creep leads into other discussions, though, like the g's your body experienced during your emergency landing. (do you possibly recall the detailed reliability analysis you gave us on your local fbo's rental fleet in this thread????)
John




PS :What is your name?
 
Agreed to a point Yukon.

Yukon, I will agree that the incorrect claim of SFC be rebuked. However, I still maintain that this should be for people interested in alternative engine developement and installation. I do agree with you that people are on here researching engine options. I think that is great. If a person is thinking of installing any engine other than a Lyc (which is what the aircraft are designed for) then they should be very interested in every aspect of it, and be able to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I researched for months to finally decide on the rotary. And I was still surprised by the amount of extra work involved. (still would have chosen this path inspite) But a person thinking of an alt install, especially a home spun version, had better do their research and not have on rose colored glasses when doing it. I agree with some of your posts, and do not with others. I still maintain the bickering back an forth (I am not pointing fingers here, just stating) would be better posted on the Lyc Vs. Alt thread.

Now I have wondered far from topic. Back to the subject.
 
More Engine Issues

I see your point, Ben, but I hope that improbable claims will always be met with rebuttle. Maybe you could start a "Mistral Installation" thread, or whatever your engine is, and I doubt anybody would disturb you in the pursuit of the best installation. This thread started with several hard to swallow claims, that just begged for a balanced reply.

I started my project almost two years ago with the intention of using Subaru power. I found that it was very difficult to get critical information such as installed weights, gearbox durability, fuel burn, fixed pitch prop performance,
and vapor lock issues. After 6 months of lurking on various websites I found that no alternative could match the fuel consumption, reliability and installed weight of an aircooled aircraft engine. Crossflow is gone, Egg doesn't sell the engine I was looking at (4 cyl) anymore, and the rotary that flies over my house every week made that decision for me (noise). This forum can and will serve as a source of vital information for the perspective RV builder if information is allowed to flow.

With gas at 4-5 bucks, my O-235 is looking smarter every day. Paid 10K for a 440 hr factory Lyc. and look forward to hearing it run.

John
 
Most Potential Alt I've Seen At Kosh!

After seeing their engine perform in the Arrow at Oshkosh, I believe
this alt engine might have the most potential. I asked Peter Pierpont
what his average fuel burn was up to Oshkosh from Embry-Riddle in Florida and he said around 10 gal/hr. I felt the vibration on the tips of the wings at idle which was noticably less that my RV-7 O-360. They did have a huge
muffler about 30" long but it was very quite. They still have alot of refining
to do but I plan to keep abreast of their developments for a potential install
in my RV-10.

Chuck Stuhrenberg
http://rvparachutes.com
 
Rotors Departing the Engine

Wow, overall you make lots of good points but you depart reality right here:

"Any radial inertia vectors you would own up to? If the only side loads are seal springs, why do crank failures case the rotors to blow out the side of the case?"

This never happens, rotors never depart out the side of the engine, and I have only heard of one eccentric shaft (crank) failure ever, this essentially never happens.

Nucleus


Jconard said:
First,

Given proper rod angles, etc, there is nothing wrong with long stoke, the O-320 only has a stroke of 3.7 ish and the H6 3.50, the 360 is a little over 4. Short stroke, large bore is called oversquare, and is a design favored for its High rpm ability. I guess I don't understand your point...first you said the internal parts were flimsy, and now they are too heavy. These parts are pretty well engineered and the manufacturing is really first rate. (The casting mfg for deltahawk for example casts and machines superior's cases)

Could things be lighter, hand finished billet rods, and forged pistons? Sure, but why? At 2700 rpm the stock parts are plenty stout. In the interest of full disclosure, I did trade my stock pistons for forged units, not for compression, but because they came more closely balanced, and the cost was about $500 for all for on exchange.

Second if you think that a spining triangle, within a double elliptical chamber does not change directions....well where are you on the whole "sun rising in the east thing". Any radial inertia vectors you would own up to? If the only side loads are seal springs, why do crank failures case the rotors to blow out the side of the case?

I have built a ton of air cooled engines, and raced for more than a decade, I have seen the best components that money can buy. I was initially attracted to the Egg package when I was thinking about an empenage. It did not take me and my dad (4000+ combat hours M.E. CPE) long to see that vitually every answer, on every website, from every vendor was something like "No failures have ever been seen". Gave me the willies. I could not find any way to do this without a ton of money, and for less performance.

But no one in the movement would ever just say "Hey, you're right, we just think this is neat, and are trying to evolve the approach, but right now it is heavy, and slow, and involves substantial additional risk."

Finally, there is a distinction I have never understood in these discussions:

Frankly few of us worry about the actual core engine reliability

Why not? There are numerous additional failures which are possible which can kill you, which will fail the delivery of power.

The very technology which is "superior" creates these single points of failure. Again, carb, mags, O-3XX there are no cables, and no wires, and no charging system that will ground you.

So this superior technology creates complexity, which creates a need for even more complexity to make it reliable, which makes it all, well.....complex, and heavy.

By the way, the lycoming TSIO failure lawsuit was a bit more complex, it was a multi-party litigation where the subcontracting foundry was unable to meet its indemnity committment, and the marketing party (Piper) was off the hook, no lawsuit of that complexity is that simple. I have read the case. I have not seen it on any of the free law resource sites, but most public libraries have Westlaw access, where it would be available.

All I am saying is that I object to the rhetorical claims of predicted reliability.

Again, I know this will get flames. Maybe in another decade the package will be refined.
 
nucleus said:
I have only heard of one eccentric shaft (crank) failure ever, this essentially never happens.

Nucleus

In the realm of naturally aspirated Mazda Wankels run below 7500 rpm this is true. On high hp (650+), high revving (10,000 +) race engines, LOTS of rotaries have suffered catastrophic failures of the eccentric shaft and stationary gears leading to rupture of the housings and fracture of the housing bolts with green death gushing out. In aircraft use with a proper rebuild and revs probably never exceeding 7000 rpm, this sort of failure would be extremely remote.
 
rv6ejguy said:
In the realm of naturally aspirated Mazda Wankels run below 7500 rpm this is true. On high hp (650+), high revving (10,000 +) race engines, LOTS of rotaries have suffered catastrophic failures of the eccentric shaft and stationary gears leading to rupture of the housings and fracture of the housing bolts with green death gushing out. In aircraft use with a proper rebuild and revs probably never exceeding 7000 rpm, this sort of failure would be extremely remote.

In any rotary used at less than 300 HP, (2 rotor) and less than 8000 RPM non-turbo, failure due to material breakage is unheard of. Failure due to oil pressure loss or ingestion of foreign material are possibillities as they are for any engine. The only established failure mode was the stationary gear, which has been improved in later models to prevent this. Any second generation or later should have no problems. Looking at a forces chart the rotary has nearly perfect balance at 6000 RPM. The forces climb above that. 7500 is a practical limiting RPM for aircraft. This should allow at least 200 HP in a 2-rotor or 300 HP in a 3 rotor with total MECHANICAL reliability. Good ancillary systems are a must as they are with any aircraft. Most rotary aircraft failures have not been engine failures, rather the eletrical system of radiator hoses or other items. Don't forget that getting the engine itself only gets you half way there.
Bill Jepson
 
Eccentric Shaft Failure BS

Where are you getting this about the eccentric shaft failures? I think you are making this up. Find me three examples of eccentric shaft failures at less than 1500 HP.

Nucleus

rv6ejguy said:
In the realm of naturally aspirated Mazda Wankels run below 7500 rpm this is true. On high hp (650+), high revving (10,000 +) race engines, LOTS of rotaries have suffered catastrophic failures of the eccentric shaft and stationary gears leading to rupture of the housings and fracture of the housing bolts with green death gushing out. In aircraft use with a proper rebuild and revs probably never exceeding 7000 rpm, this sort of failure would be extremely remote.
 
nucleus said:
Where are you getting this about the eccentric shaft failures? I think you are making this up. Find me three examples of eccentric shaft failures at less than 1500 HP.

Nucleus

A client of mine in Florida, Ron Brothers, ran a drag RX7 there and had two let go in big ways. I'm sorry I no longer have the photo he sent. It snapped the rotor housing bolts, sheared all the gear teeth off and one broke the shaft. Another client in Orlando had multiple 13B failures including a shaft shearing just in front of the flywheel. These were both 700+hp engines running over 30 psi boost however.

As Bill said and I said, this is only in the realm of very high rpm, high power rotaries, not applicable to aircraft useage which will be close to stock hp and rpm. The point is, rotaries can and do break at extreme hp levels just like any other engine. In aircraft, most failures to date have been soft seal failures due to poor maintenance or FOD. The engines have continued to run but in several cases, altitude could not be maintained and forced landings were the result.
 
nucleus said:
Where are you getting this about the eccentric shaft failures? I think you are making this up. Find me three examples of eccentric shaft failures at less than 1500 HP.

Nucleus
I've seen video of two different catastrophic failures. One was a full-fledged race car, the other an RX-2 with a highly modded 13B in it. The race car had the whole side of the car blown off, while the RX-2 lost it's fender...

I do agree with the others that the 13B is a great engine for aircraft use with the proper care taken to make it airworthy. Stock RPM's and horsepower use will never see failures like these.
 
As I posted last week in the RV10 section, a builder in Texas is installing a Renesis in an RV10 complete with custom cowl and 15 inch spinner. I'll link to any photos I receive on this one. Very interesting as is Bill's 20B RV10. Bill, how is yours coming?
 
Back
Top