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Wobble test and more.....

Roadjunkie1

Well Known Member
I know this has been discussed before but there are a few items that I discovered on my journey to do mine.
First: this is a Lycoming Mandatory Service Bulletin. Is that actually something that HAS to be done? Or is it just prudent? I think it is most important with a certain group of engines that came from the factory with less than good valve guides but apparently is recommended for all..... Several mechanics I have talked to have said No and one or two asked What's a wobble test?

I think we need to do a survey with three choices: Have you done a wobble test: Yes. No. What's a wobble test? Recommended every 400 hours on fixed wing, 300 hours on helicopters. Or is it just done with "morning sickness" or suspected valve sticking?

I have messed with valves and valve springs for several decades and never look forward to using the typical prybar mechanisms that are most commonly used. I'm usually working alone and to get the retaining keys out, the springs out and then reverse all that, especially getting the keys back in without dropping them on the hangar floor!😠 All while keeping the springs compressed with one hand or your chest/stomach.....😒😡

Enter Stage Left: The Valve Wizard. Having heard good things, I decided I needed to try one out. A bit expensive but at what cost convenience and ease of use? I bolted mine on and the rest of the work on the valve and springs was child's play! The springs stay compressed (keeping the valve closed with the Rope Trick) with no effort while the keys are easily fished out. Yes, one has to take the tool off to do what is next but that is a minor inconvenience. Then, reversing all that and compressing the springs to put the keys back in (I still dropped one that quickly disappeared. Oh: there it is! How did it get under the Cub tail?) made that job much easier! Highly recommended! I believe it is 3D printed but is h***-for-stout and handles the job without a whimper.

The Wobble Test Tool: I have seen multiple designs including the Aircraft Spruce design (which doesn't seem to aim at the extension at 90 degrees....and is always on backorder anyway) and wasn't happy with what I was seeing. Some did not conform to what the SB was recommending, like where the reading on the extension should be taken. I wasn't too excited about buying one anyway. So I designed my own loosely referring to the Lycoming SB (one of their dimensions was wrong, BTW) and other designs I had seen. I came up with one that was a minor PTA to make but works very well. The extension I made was from a 3.5 inch length of steel tubing, which also works very well. The acceptable limits (0.013"-0.035") are in the SB and Cylinder #2 was well within that: 0.017". On to the other three!

Have you done yours yet? Have FUN!😄

Photos: The Tool. Holes in the main body were purposely oval to allow for side-to-side adjustments to center the dial probe on the extension. The Tool at work. The Valve Wizard at work....notice the rope handing off to the side....😆
 

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Had exactly the same idea and made my tool myself.


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Been doing these wobble tests regularly on different engines for a few years now. Using the kit as sold by ACS as my time is way to precious, the more so if the right tools are available at the right price.

Here a couple of pictures showing the cylinder markings on 2 different vintage 360s. The stamped C is the newer one with the supposedly better guides with a recommended wobble test at 1K hours, the non-C the older type guide affected by the mandatory 400hr interval.
 

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Nice write-up! The Valve Wizard is nice, but QC is spotty. I had to get a new bolt as the snap ring groove had been cut too deep and wouldn't retain the snap ring.

On angle-valve engines, you don't even need a tool to hold the indicator; an Adel clamp and a stack of AN washers to get to the proper height per the service bulletin works well.

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Here a couple of pictures showing the cylinder markings on 2 different vintage 360s. The stamped C is the newer one with the supposedly better guides with a recommended wobble test at 1K hours, the non-C the older type guide affected by the mandatory 400hr interval.
Does that stamp apply to just the O-360 or all Lycomings? Mine don't have no stinking "C"........ 😒 :(
 
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My O-540 had just 700 hours since nw cylinders when I stuck a valve in flight. Having a six cylinder makes this more of an abnormal but with a four banger, it’s an emergency.

The valve freed itself after two long minutes. After Landing I found two other cylinders with valve guides so tight that they could not be driven into the cylinder without heating the guide. I ended up reaming the guides and will now do the wobble SB every 500 hours. Here is a photo of the reamer and it’s build up.
 

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My O-540 had just 700 hours since nw cylinders when I stuck a valve in flight. Having a six cylinder makes this more of an abnormal but with a four banger, it’s an emergency.

The valve freed itself after two long minutes. After Landing I found two other cylinders with valve guides so tight that they could not be driven into the cylinder without heating the guide. I ended up reaming the guides and will now do the wobble SB every 500 hours. Here is a photo of the reamer and it’s build up.
Yikes! How did the valve look after flying 'stuck'? Did you have to do any resurfacing? That was maybe not the first time it had gotten stuck; just the longest, perhaps. Did you borescope the cylinder to get a look at the valve? Curious minds want to know...... :unsure:
 
Having a six cylinder makes this more of an abnormal but with a four banger, it’s an emergency.
Yep. Everybody who had one in flight will confirm that :eek:

And one more reason to never leave Terra Firma if the engine exhibits any sign of morning sickness, one cold cylinder, cough, irregular running for a couple of minutes then all good. NO, all is not good at all.
Same valve can, and will sooner or later, get stuck again... and in return may destroy the engine in short order.

The best scenario would be this one:

Screenshot 2024-03-07 at 17.53.09.png


As taken from the Lycoming Operating Tips, Sticking Valves Do Not Neglect The Warning Signs.
 
My O-540 had just 700 hours since nw cylinders when I stuck a valve in flight. Having a six cylinder makes this more of an abnormal but with a four banger, it’s an emergency.

The valve freed itself after two long minutes. After Landing I found two other cylinders with valve guides so tight that they could not be driven into the cylinder without heating the guide. I ended up reaming the guides and will now do the wobble SB every 500 hours. Here is a photo of the reamer and it’s build up.
Emergency it is. This happened to me:

 
Do I understand correctly that we have two different things being discussed?

  • wobble test - see if the valve stem is too loose in the guide
  • stuck valve - the valve stem is too tight and causes very bad things to happen, starts with morning sickness
 
Do I understand correctly that we have two different things being discussed?

  • wobble test - see if the valve stem is too loose in the guide
  • stuck valve - the valve stem is too tight and causes very bad things to happen, starts with morning sickness
No...
The wobble test also makes sure that a minimum lateral play is given. Whilst doing the test, the lateral play of the stem in the guide is measured and compared to maximum and minimum values as given in the respective bulletin under Recommended Allowable Stem Movement, Maximum & Minimum Clearance.
Too tight a guide whilst doing the wobble test will eventually lead to a stuck valve, QED ;)
 
No...
The wobble test also makes sure that a minimum lateral play is given. Whilst doing the test, the lateral play of the stem in the guide is measured and compared to maximum and minimum values as given in the respective bulletin under Recommended Allowable Stem Movement, Maximum & Minimum Clearance.
Too tight a guide whilst doing the wobble test will eventually lead to a stuck valve, QED ;)
Exactly. The purpose of the SB is to find guides that have become too loose and those that might have become too tight, mostly due to carbon buildup on the shaft of the exhaust valve and the guide. 0.013-0.035" are the limits for a 0.50" valve. One might find a valve that is too tight while doing the wobble test. SO: it has two functions. That is where reaming of the valve guide and dressing up the valve stem come in: clean the carbon mess up and, hopefully, bring it back to tolerances. Two birds; one stone!! 😊
 
I pulled the exhaust valves to do the wobble test and found carbon build up in the rocker box and pitting on the valve stem. Any idea what could have caused this?


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Hmmmmmmmmmmm...... How did the wobble test go? Were you near the tolerance limit? Was this only on one cylinder or were others like this? Carbon comes from incomplete combustion/burning of the fuel/air mixture. This will build up on the valve and cause it to stick. In this case, I would guess your guide was a little (?lot) loose and carbon-ladened oil was able to sneak past the valve and get in the rocker space. OR the oil that normally circulates in the rocker housing was getting so HOT it was burning and carbonizing. Do you have independent CHT probes? There appears to be a puddle of burnt oil in the lower half of the rocker box.

How was your compression test? Leaky valves might have something to do with that as well. Lead salts can build up on things but I can't imagine it building up on the valve shaft to the extent it would cause the corrosion seen on yours...🤷‍♂️

There also appears to be a large amount of ? combustion residue on the exhaust manifold and pipe as if there was a leak from around the spark plug. Not sure what the source of that might be.........

Lots going on here.............
 
Yep. Everybody who had one in flight will confirm that :eek:

And one more reason to never leave Terra Firma if the engine exhibits any sign of morning sickness, one cold cylinder, cough, irregular running for a couple of minutes then all good. NO, all is not good at all.
Same valve can, and will sooner or later, get stuck again... and in return may destroy the engine in short order.

The best scenario would be this one:

View attachment 57804


As taken from the Lycoming Operating Tips, Sticking Valves Do Not Neglect The Warning Signs.
 
Yikes! How did the valve look after flying 'stuck'? Did you have to do any resurfacing? That was maybe not the first time it had gotten stuck; just the longest, perhaps. Did you borescope the cylinder to get a look at the valve? Curious minds want to know...... :unsure:
The valve was still in good shape but I had bigger problems, the cam was failing which led me to tear down the engine and overhaul it.
 
The valve was still in good shape but I had bigger problems, the cam was failing which led me to tear down the engine and overhaul it.
Well, that sucks! Good thing you were exploring the cause! The next step might have been a failure in flight! How was the failing cam discovered?
 
Well, that sucks! Good thing you were exploring the cause! The next step might have been a failure in flight! How was the failing cam discovered?
Lots of 540 and 390 cams seem to fail, the jury is out as to why. The telltale of a failing cam is shavings imbedded in the piston skirt. I found almost nothing in my filter or suction screen.
 

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Lots of 540 and 390 cams seem to fail, the jury is out as to why. The telltale of a failing cam is shavings imbedded in the piston skirt. I found almost nothing in my filter or suction screen.
Yikes! That's a little bit more than scary! Subtle! Good pickup! Yeah, that cam is just plain wrong! :oops: Odd that it wouldn't show up in the filter.......that's a lot of metal gone from that lobe......:unsure:
 
How often do you change oil? I think 50 hours is too long.. I do 25 personally, as it gets real black approaching 50 hours..
I've always been a 25-hour guy; that's the way I've always done it as that is what I was taught. The Cub has the old 'filter' screen. So not a full-flow filter like SuzieQ. I still change hers at 25 just because she likes that! I treat her well; she treats me well! The Operator's Manual says 50 is ok with a full-flow filter but........ I don't freak out if I happen to go over 25 in either airplane, like changing the oil on a cross-country. If I'm going to OSH in the Cub, I'll change oil before I go as that is a 26 hour round trip. Depends on how close I am in SuzieQ. Yeah: oil can get pretty dark.

Update: completed my wobble testing. With 1200 hours since new, all valves passed well within tolerance. The 'tightest' was 0.017; the most 'loose' was 0.023. And all were very slick in the guides. Good for another 400 hours! 😊 😊
 
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The stamped C is the newer one with the supposedly better guides with a recommended wobble test at 1K hours, the non-C the older type guide affected by the mandatory 400hr interval.
Is there another way to check for the improved hi-chrome valve guides, other than the "c" stamp? I have looked at a couple local engines, all built from the specialty shops, relatively new, certainly since 1998, and none are stamped "c". Checking for the 5 degree chamfered valve guide is a last resort since most of the work would be done by that point.
 
all built from the specialty shops, relatively new, certainly since 1998
Can't say for sure, but my guess would be that they are using the better guides, or maybe even proprietary ones. The one way to find out would be to ask the respective custom engine builder.
My local observation has been that custom engines seem to be less affected.
 
Do you have any drawings with dimensions for this tool that you could share?
Thanks
Unfortunately not. I used an old cylinder to "design" the baseplate. Then I made sure that the dial gauge is at the prescribed height above the valve cover base. This dimensions are taken from SB388C. The "valve extension" is just a brass rod slightly larger in diameter than the exhaust valve, bored to accept the valve stem and sliced to be able to tighten it to the stem. Hope this helps.
 
Do you have any drawings with dimensions for this tool that you could share?
Thanks
If you aren't in a hurry, I can dig my dimensions up. It will take me a few days as things are kind of busy around here.....as always..... We just got a new FOOT of Snow here!
 
If you aren't in a hurry, I can dig my dimensions up. It will take me a few days as things are kind of busy around here.....as always..... We just got a new FOOT of Snow here!
Road junkie 1
If you can send the dimensions when you get a chance it would be much appreciated. I currently don't have a cylinder or anything else to measure from, but I would like to fire up the mill and lathe to build the tool as I will be reacquiring a Lycoming to attach to my next project. I haven't used one since my R22 days, where the wobble test was required for 100 hr inspections, 30 years ago.
I will be moving all my tools to my new hangar at Pateyaviation.com when they get it done this fall. Until then, I have the resources to build the tool. Thank you in advance.
Chukill
 
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