USA Desert Southwest-Night Crosscountry

[PilotjohnS]

I did a night cross country from LA to Vegas this week. My take off was from the LA area in the daytime, with landing in Vegas at sunset. My intent was to land at North Las Vegas airport. However, since I was coming from the southwest, the controller couldn't get me across the McCarran traffic pattern right away. So I was forced to hold over Henderson. This was a VFR trip, but the Class B around Vegas kind of blocks VFR self navigating. The controllers were very good about giving permission to operate in class b airspace if I followed their instructions.

After a lap, I gave up on North Las Vegas and landed at Henderson just at sunset. Needless to say the airport was deserted except for the two women at the terminal counter. A quick Uber, a few dollars left behind and hour later I arrived back at Henderson for the return flight. This was going to be a challenging night cross country VFR. There were no clouds, little wind, and visibility was unlimited.

If you are familiar with the Vegas area, Henderson sits on the southern end with the bright city to the north, dark desert to the south, and unlit mountain's to the west.

I decided on a box departure from runway 35 to gain altitude, with a jog to the southeast to pick up the victor airway. The thought being the victor airway would guide me through the 8000’ mountains to the south west.

Takeoff and first turn back towards the city was uneventful. But after the second turn towards the desert, it got very dark. And very disorienting; i could not see any mountains, just darkness. I couldn't tell if those were lights in the distance or stars. Did I already say this was tough VFR. So head down and I flew the flight plan as if it was an IFR flight with brief look for traffic. I tried to engage the autopilot at 800 feet agl. The autopilot did an immediate turn to the right with a terrain warning straight ahead. I think the autopilot didn't figure on the climb rate and it just saw clearance from my altitude to terrain ahead being too low. Who knew the autopilot wont let one fly into terrain.

After fighting the autopilot, I was finally high enough, and on course, for Otto to take over.

The rest of the flight was uneventful. Besides GPS, the glow of LA was enough of a sign post for guidance.

Photos are arrival at sunset. The sphere is quite visible and looks cool. I feel sorry for the neighbors.

The last picture is returning to LA with the darkness above.

Lesson learnt:1) No reason to do a box departure from Henderson since the climb rate of the RV is sufficient to miss the 8000’ mountains 20 miles down range. Better to be on autopilot than do fancy departure flying by hand.
2) Night VFR cross country should really be considered an IFR flight, planned, and flown that way

 

[airguy]

2) Night VFR cross country should really be considered an IFR flight, planned, and flow that way

Amen brother. I don't fly VFR at night anymore, it's always an IFR op.

 

[dpansier]

John,

Please explain the purpose of the circular disc with the letters located just above the autopilot control box.

Thanks

 

[blaplante]

Reminds me...

This reminds me of https://www.faasafety.gov/files/eve...A08FA023_67063_12_10_2021_12_32_14_PM_(5).pdf

 

[TX_Flyer]

John,

Please explain the purpose of the circular disc with the letters located just above the autopilot control box.

Thanks

Maybe a reminder for latest weather info?

 

[PilotjohnS]

Yes

A reminder for atis info.
(Was it alpha or bravo?

 

[PilotjohnS]

Learned from accident

This reminds me of https://www.faasafety.gov/files/eve...A08FA023_67063_12_10_2021_12_32_14_PM_(5).pdf

This accident was on my mind when I was flight planning. Hence the box departure and the diversion to the south east to pick up the airway. But I learned all that flying created more confusion than safety.

 

[Bill Boyd]

John,

Please explain the purpose of the circular disc with the letters located just above the autopilot control box.

Thanks

"D - R - I - N - K - Y - O - U - R - O - V - A - L - T - I - N - E"

 

[Toobuilder]

This reminds me of https://www.faasafety.gov/files/eve...A08FA023_67063_12_10_2021_12_32_14_PM_(5).pdf

The left seat pilot of this accident flight was a friend and co worker of mine... I was also thinking of this accident as soon as I saw this thread.

I fly into VGT (North Vegas) often but usually approach from the west. There is room to get aound the Bravo to the west (north/south), but its pretty tight against the mountains. Ive done it in the daylight but I would not do it casually at night.

Last time I did any serious night cross country was from Blythe to Mojave (some of the same real estate as the OP) after getting stopped by an advancing dust storm at my Chandler destination. The dark tinted canopy of the Rocket, the mountains and the featureless desert makes for an uncomfortable flying experience for me these days. Not sure if I'm growing up or chicken, but I'm OK either way.

 

[PilotjohnS]

Funny

"D - R - I - N - K - Y - O - U - R - O - V - A - L - T - I - N - E"

Funny
Ralphy

 

[John Tierney]

When I flew with a flying club out of Waukegan, IL (KUGN) the club had rules that prohibited flight down the lakefront to Chicago unless the pilot was instrument rated, for the same reason as the you experienced. A turn away from the bright lights of the city towards the black hole of Lake Michigan was disorienting. Heck, even during the day the lake can have a "milk bowl" haze where the horizon is difficult to discern.

 

[jrs14855]

K.I.S.S

Inbound to N Vegas from LA follow I 15, fly the 7 nm arc from LAS at or below 3900'. City lights below you all the way. Below the Bravo no need to tlk to anyone except VGT tower when their open.

 

[PilotjohnS]

Complicated by Controllers

Inbound to N Vegas from LA follow I 15, fly the 7 nm arc from LAS at or below 3900'. City lights below you all the way. Below the Bravo no need to tlk to anyone except VGT tower when their open.

Yes this is the way next time in daylight.
I was doing flight following, so when I got to Vegas controllers, he had me wait over Henderson. If I had not been on flight following, I could have done whatever, and nobody would be telling me otherwise.

Same thing through LA basin. I could legally cross inbound LAX traffic near Fullerton, but flight following always have me wait until really late. And they always are vectoring me for traffic.

Since I have ADS-B in and out, does it make sense to use flight following?

In this case it prevented me from getting to my preferred destination.

 

[SPX]

Since I have ADS-B in and out, does it make sense to use flight following?

In this case it prevented me from getting to my preferred destination.

ATC will tell you yes, but as you experienced, sometimes that will mean that you don't get to fly the route or altitudes that you desire.

With ADS-B Out and ADS-B In, you'll get traffic through ForeFlight or the like. But, ATC still won't know what you're doing, so they may have to move traffic around for you.

 

[blaplante]

One thing I noticed in the above mentioned accident report is that A) Vegas doesn't seem to readily give any kind of clearance into Bravo, and B) the design of the west side Class B is highly unsafe at night. Take a look at the area directly west of LAS. Outer ring is a 5500' floor, and about 2 miles west is a 4980' peak.

My usual procedure for your Henderson problem would be to circle the airport and climb until high enough to go enroute, but the Bravo floor at 5000' messes with that.

I think my approach might be to fly DirectTo to Jean 0L7. Staying over the freeway will keep me out of the hills and I just need to step up as I get to each higher Bravo floor.

 

[Taltruda]

Yes this is the way next time in daylight.
I was doing flight following, so when I got to Vegas controllers, he had me wait over Henderson. If I had not been on flight following, I could have done whatever, and nobody would be telling me otherwise.

Same thing through LA basin. I could legally cross inbound LAX traffic near Fullerton, but flight following always have me wait until really late. And they always are vectoring me for traffic.

Since I have ADS-B in and out, does it make sense to use flight following?

In this case it prevented me from getting to my preferred destination.

JRS14855 is right.. another way is to leave highway 15 shortly after Baker, and go over the road that passes though Sandy Valley (SkyRanch 3L2) follow the highway to Mt Potosi. After passing south of Mt Potosi, continue descending to get under the Bravo. I’ve never had ATC deny me or even make it difficult to get to VGT.
As for the runway 35 departure out of HND, you almost always get a left downwind turn to avoid getting into the Bravo at LAS. You said,” I decided on a box departure from runway 35 to gain altitude, with a jog to the southeast to pick up the victor airway. The thought being the victor airway would guide me through the 8000’ mountains to the south west.” I think that wasent the best idea trying to reach that airway (V587?) a much better plan is what you mentioned.. follow I-15 to Jean, and climb as ATC or the Bravo shelfs allow. Always be towards the max altitude under a shelf, like within a hundred or two hundred feet, then start your climb as soon as you clear it.
If you get any terrain warnings in the LAS valley, you are doing something wrong..

 

[SPX]

One thing I noticed in the above mentioned accident report is that A) Vegas doesn't seem to readily give any kind of clearance into Bravo,

Actually, I've never had an issue getting a Class B clearance from the LAS TRACON... But I've probably only flown VFR there 10x.

Always be towards the max altitude under a shelf, like within a hundred or two hundred feet, then start your climb as soon as you clear it.
If you get any terrain warnings in the LAS valley, you are doing something wrong..

Not bad advice, but in my experience, by doing that, you're quite likely going to get an up close view of an airliner.. and that, of course, brings up wake turbulence concerns.

 

[penguin]

First time I flew from the Fort Worth area to West Texas at night I couldn't believe how dark it was.
While it might not be strictly IMC an attitude indicator was certainly a very useful instrument...

 

[dabney]

Night flying across desert

Everyone has different tolerances for risk in their flying. If military pilots far more experienced than me won’t fly over the desert at night without NVG, neither will I.

 

[PilotjohnS]

HuH?

Everyone has different tolerances for risk in their flying. If military pilots far more experienced than me won’t fly over the desert at night without NVG, neither will I.

I respect their opinion and expertise but don't understand this. Isn't night VFR the same as IFR as far as risks?

 

[PhatRV]

I respect their opinion and expertise but don't understand this. Isn't night VFR the same as IFR as far as risks?

I guess if your engine dies in daytime IFR, you will see where you will crash land once you go below the layer, but you won't see much at night VFR. Same risk, I agree.

For me I don't see well at night so that is an added risk that isn't applicable for many people.

 

[blaplante]

I respect their opinion and expertise but don't understand this. Isn't night VFR the same as IFR as far as risks?

One significant difference is ATC will be (supposed to be) working WITH you keeping you onto defined routes with terrain clearance on IFR. [I'm speaking of areas with radar coverage, not remote Alaska.]
VFR at night... YOU are 100% responsible for terrain clearance and ATC may be just saying "Stay clear of class Bravo".

And here's an accident where they departed VFR with intention to get IFR clearance in the air. https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/san_diego_ca-san_diego_public.pdf
Apparently they didn't know the phone number for SOCAL. Or too tired to think about that. Clearly some confusion (well explained in the link) as to whether they were getting radar vectors or were still on their own. The cloud layer may be irrelevant as the crash site is pretty barren. On a no moon night the outcome could have been identical.

 

[newt]

2) Night VFR cross country should really be considered an IFR flight, planned, and flown that way

The basic-standard Australian PPL is day-VFR only, and often the first add-on rating is NVFR.

Back in the 1990s our CAA used to have Class 1 and Class 2 Instrument Ratings. During a long-forgotten round of regulatory reform they renamed Class 1 Instrument to "Night VFR," but kept virtually all of its actual content the same.

(The Class 2 Instrument Rating was renamed "Command Instrument Rating.")

So the Night VFR Rating is basically flying on instruments except that the flight has to be planned to be in VMC the entire way. That includes 1000' vertical clearance from terrain and cloud. The only instrument approach procedure taught is visual circling, and the expectation is that the flight will be in VMC above the MSA until inside the circling area.

An Australian night VFR pilot will have received night instrument unusual attitude training, will have been exposed to all the perceptual illusions you get without a visual reference, and should be comfortable with maintaining control without a horizon reference. They won't necessarily be current, but at least they've been trained.

It's pretty restrictive as an operational rating, but it certainly meets your recommendation that a night VFR cross country should "be considered an IFR flight, planned, and flown that way." Most recipients of the rating use it as a stepping stone to a proper instrument rating, which is much easier if you already have your "head in the system" from NVFR than it is if you're starting cold.

Apart from deliberate night flights for currency, I used my NVFR rating "for real" twice, where it enabled me to get home after various delays during the day would have otherwise left me stranded due to last light.

Now that I have an instrument rating, I can't see any reason for VFR at night.

- mark