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The RV-12 IS at AirVenture '06!

Interesting departure from older designs. Like the blade main gear, front gear looks robust, full span flaperons?, only oh, oh I see from the pix is the dreaded handbrake a la European designs. I could be wrong on this. Toe brakes please.

I like it. :)
 
Great photos!

Mike - Thanks for taking the time to put these up for all the rest of us who can't make it to Oshkosh.

Much appreciated.

DJ
 
RV-12 photos

Nice photos, Mike. It's cool you got some with Van in there admiring at his latest masterpiece. That really looks like a sweet little airplane. I like the new non-plastic wingtips, and the handle to help move the wings into the folded position. The folding wings is a really super feature. I hope it stays on the production model.
 
rv8ch said:
...I like the new non-plastic wingtips, and the handle to help move the wings into the folded position. The folding wings is a really super feature. I hope it stays on the production model.
Click to expand...

Van has never mentioned folding wings for the RV-12. He has talked about removable, glider style, wings. Glider wings are typically removed completely and placed in fixtures in a trailer.
 
RickS said:
Thanks for those links, wow that Rans LSA plane is very nice indeed...the aluminum design and construction looks very advanced and well thought out, beautifully made parts. The overall similarities are amazing.
Although when I added up the kit prices.. I had to gulp... over $25K for the Rans kits...
Hopefully the RV-12 will come in about $13,000 complete.
Does that sound in the ballpark?
Rick
Click to expand...
The RANs price includes seats, upholstery, FWF kit, engine gauges, prop, etc. A bit more than a typical Vans kit includes. I doubt a -12 would be a lot less, similarily equiped.
Both look like they would go together pretty quickly. Very cool.
I did notice that it looks like the RANs is using 6061-T6 while Vans appears to be 2024-T3 Alclad (which they certainly have a lot of laying around). Chris Heintz has always been a 6061 proponent.

Both remind me of the Pazmany PL2. Can't wait to see them.
 
rv8ch said:
I like the new non-plastic wingtips, and the handle to help move the wings into the folded position. The folding wings is a really super feature. I hope it stays on the production model.
Click to expand...

Is the handle on the wingtip a dead give away that it's folding and not removable?

I see a few questions that would be great to have answered by someone who is there, hint ;) , hint ;) (Mike Doyle:D )

1) Removable or folding wings?
2) Tip up canopy, will a slider be an option?
3) Hand brake or toe?

Any more?
 
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rv6ejguy said:
...only oh, oh I see from the pix is the dreaded handbrake a la European designs. I could be wrong on this. Toe brakes please.
Click to expand...
I've flown LSA with both toe brakes (Evektor) and hand brakes (IndUS Thorpedo). The hand brake of the Thorpedo would better if it weren't such a reach. However, I don't like the "bike brake lever on the stick" style that the RV-12 seems to have - you don't often need the brake, so putting it on the stick doesn't make that much sense to me. Of course, YMMV ;)
 
Questions for Van's at Oshkosh...

Mike Armstrong said:
I see a few questions that would be great to have answered by someone who is there (Mike :D )

1) Removable or folding wings?
2) Tip up canopy, will a slider be an option?
3) Hand brake or toe?

Any more?
Click to expand...
Any chance of wing lockers as the 601XL has? I am curious about CG issues, with such a light craft as these LS are. Seems like a very wise option to place the weight of your bags closer to the center line vs. out back.
 
Folding/removable wings

Mike Armstrong said:
Is the handle on the wingtip a dead give away that it's folding and not removable?
Click to expand...
I doubt it. Sorry if I sounded like I knew something. I would guess the wings are removable, not folding. Several of the European high-wing LSAs that I have seen are folding wings, so I just went with that term.

Removable wings on a low wing like the RV-12 and most gliders are easy to put on and take off by one person. I doubt that would be the case with a high wing, which is probably why all of that I have seen are all folding.

This kit will be Van's biggest seller, I'll bet. Sign me up for two!
 
fl-mike said:
The RANs price includes seats, upholstery, FWF kit, engine gauges, prop, etc. A bit more than a typical Vans kit includes. I doubt a -12 would be a lot less, similarily equiped.
Both look like they would go together pretty quickly. Very cool.
I did notice that it looks like the RANs is using 6061-T6 while Vans appears to be 2024-T3 Alclad (which they certainly have a lot of laying around). Chris Heintz has always been a 6061 proponent.

Both remind me of the Pazmany PL2. Can't wait to see them.
Click to expand...

As of now, as far as I'm concerned the Rans S-19 and Vans RV-12 are the front runners in the LSA kit race. I could easily see a long and drawn out 'Rans vs Vans' debate coming. ;)


favorite pics so far...
http://www.vansairforce.net/delete_eventually/IMG_1674.JPG
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdoyle_45068/detail?.dir=/ee3dre2&.dnm=eb70re2.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdoyle_45068/detail?.dir=/ee3dre2&.dnm=6ed2re2.jpg&.src=ph
 
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:p I don't want to hurt anyones feelings :p but I thought the Cessna LSA entry was cute like a puppy, :rolleyes: and different from all the others. From my point of view, climbing into the Cessna doesn't mean flying attire is restricted to pants. :eek:
 
RV-12

The wings are definitely not foldable, but are removeable like a gliders. The pins look just like any high performance glider setup. If you notice in one of the pictures, the ailerons automatically engage the actuator when you slide them in, again, just like a glider.
The canopy is definitely a tipup, it looks a lot like other LSA's pivoting from the front, hinges on the side.
No toe brakes a single master cylinder, I think, operated with hand actuators on each stick.
 
Thanks Mike, appreciate you taking the time.

Did you by chance notice if Rans had their S-19 on hand?

Also, if you happened to take anymore pics of the -12 we'd be more than happy to take a look at them ;) , if not, no problem, we already have 23 pics more than we had before :D
 
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Rans S19

I haven't seen the S19, at least not at the Rans booth, but I didn't look real hard or ask anybody about it. I've been to the LSA "Mall" and didn't see it, but it could still be there somewhere. Sorry, didn't get any more pictures today.
 
Thanks for taking the time to send the photos

I would like to be there at Oshkosh with you -- but this won't be my year to share the Adventure! I appreciate you taking the time to upload the RV-12 photos so the rest of us can see what an RV-12 is like!!

Thanks again -- use that sun screen!!!
 
Hi thanks a lot Mike for the larger pictures!

I wonder what Vans is pondering about in this picture Mike took? You can see the thinking gears are working in his head.

vanandrv12wa0.jpg


I've read in the recent RVator he does not like the cooling approach some of the other 912 Rotax Enigines has taken, maybe he is thinking about it.

Any other speculations on what the man is thinking about?

Kind Regards
Rudi
 
THE Question that hasn't been addressed...

I am amazed that nobody has asked "when is a tailwheel version going to be available"? :p

Sorry, but I figured sooner or later the T/W versus nosedragger debate would surely enter this conversation? :D And the bird isn't even in production yet :D

Thanks for all the real-time pictures, guys. Good stuff!
 
txaviator said:
I am amazed that nobody has asked "when is a tailwheel version going to be available"? :p

Sorry, but I figured sooner or later the T/W versus nosedragger debate would surely enter this conversation? :D And the bird isn't even in production yet :D

Thanks for all the real-time pictures, guys. Good stuff!
Click to expand...


Thanks Gary, I didn't want to be the one to mention the dreaded 'T' word :D
 
RudiGreyling said:
I wonder what Vans is pondering about in this picture Mike took? You can see the thinking gears are working in his head.
Click to expand...
vanandrv12wa0.jpg


"Those engineers at Rotax said their virtual cooling system didn't require any holes in the cowl, but I'm still not quite sure..."
 
RV-12 "Pop" rivets

Anybody take a good look at the construction method and the previous thread discussion about the pop rivets? Seems there are a few folks out there that may attempt to construct this project with the buck rivets.

Field observations are welcomed and requested...along with any detailed photos of the assembly.

Thanks

Stogie 6
Germantown, TN
(RV-6A emp...8 yrs and counting)
 
Added 6 more pictures

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdoyle_45068/album?.dir=ee3dre2

One of the things the engineers at Van's have talked about is that when they know you're using pop rivets, you don't have to worry about accesibility for bucking rivets. I'm guessing there would be some areas that would be very difficult to use driven rivets. It wouldn't surprise me to see people use the flush pop rivets however, simply because they like the looks better. You can use the pop rivet dimpler so it isn't a lot of extra work. Van's has said one of the goals might be to eliminate the need for pneumatic tools. I'm not really interested in building the RV-12, unless I have medical issues someday, but it's really interesting to watch all of the developments, listen to what Van's says and try to guess why they did things the way they did. I'm guessing that Van's is attempting to make a huge leap in reducing building time and reducing the cost of the airframe compared to other LSA. It can 't be real inexpensive because of the Rotax engine, but I bet the arframe will be very price competitive and the building time will be very reasonable.
 
RudiGreyling said:
I wonder what Vans is pondering about in this picture Mike took?
Click to expand...

"I need more surface area and cooling drag on this cowl.....How am I going to keep em' from hot-rodding this thing" :confused: .....(in anticipation of the first 160mph Baby Rocket RV-12)
 
Doug was at the Van's presentation where they discussed the RV-12. Do you think a synopsis will be posted?
 
The Rans S-19 is a kit built version of the S-LSA Aerostar Festival. Take a look: http://www.lightsportflying.com/ Van aircraft probably have the most trusted name in kitbuilt aircraft. There low wing, all metal aircraft have proven to be a great aircraft design. I've got to say though, that S-19 looks pretty nice. We'll see what the RV-12 looks like when finished. Hard to get a great idea as is.
 
I don't know about the tail dragger option. The main gear are tied to the structural section that carries the load for the wings. I would think that the main gear would need to be moved to the engine mount, like the RV-6/7/8, for a tail dragger. Even at that I still doubt we'll see a tail dragger.

If I were to build another RV, it would be a tri-gear. I like the look of my -6, and the swagger I get to use after a perfect wheel landing, but in the end a tri-gear is just more practable. It will also be easier to teach my kids how to fly a tri-gear.
 
:p Hi Boys :p My friends and I have been looking at the photos from OSH and just looked at the one from sptom's post ;) my girlfriend who is quite mechanical says those panels referred to as inspection plates in the post are like how Airstream Trailers makes a compound curve on their trailers and that is what we are probably looking at here :) :) caitlin
 
Interesting observation, Caitlin, I gotta look a little closer at that one.

RV6junkie said:
If I were to build another RV, it would be a tri-gear. I like the look of my -6, and the swagger I get to use after a perfect wheel landing, but in the end a tri-gear is just more practable. It will also be easier to teach my kids how to fly a tri-gear.
Click to expand...

I dont think this 'first' version of Vans RV-12 (ok, I'm really hoping on this one) could be anything other than a tri-gear/ side by side. Nearly all of this first batch of LSA's is being aimed at 'new' Sport Pilots and the flight training schools their going to earn their wings at. If not for practicality, certainly for initial sales numbers. I would imagine most (not all) pilots earned their wings in a side by side tri-gear aircraft because that basic configuration lends itself to an easier learning environment. Having your flight instructor sitting next to you, rather than behind you, allows him/her to point to gauges, land marks, other aircraft, ect and to observe you flying and take control if need be before you have that 'deer in the headlights' look. Ground handling and landing is much less intimidating and arguably, easier in a tri-gear. The only other thing that makes for easier flying/learning to a student/new pilot is a high wing configuration for observing land marks, runway touchdown, ect. Hence the disproportionate number of high wing, side by side, tri-gear trainers (ala Cessna 150(2)/172) you see at most flight schools (which could be a boon to Cessna's shiny new LSA).

Most of the LSA's out there are side by side, tri-gear aircraft for the reasons above. Sure, there will be a certain number of long time GA pilots that enter the LSA community for medical reasons that could easily handle (and may prefer) a taildragger or tandem taildragger, but the majority of this initial group of Sport Pilots are 'expected' to be 'average joe' new pilots and thats what the Sport Pilot/LSA market is aimed at.

Now, if I had my way (and I lobbied hard for it :D ), the -12 would come in two versions. The current version to appeal to the masses, and a second version, a tandem taildragger (with a sliding canopy ofcourse :D ) for the rest of us.

But overall I'm just happy to see a Vans Aircraft version of an LSA in the works if only because of the reputation Vans has for producing excellent kit aircraft and since I intend to build my LSA, then thats a good thing :D .
 
sptom said:
I was looking at the pictures of the 12 and noticed that there are what look like small rectangular inspection panels under the leading edge. Could that be a provision for a future taildragger version? I personally hope so. I think this airplane would be a lot more fun as a taildragger!

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdoyle_45068/detail?.dir=/2d64re2&.dnm=efcere2.jpg&.src=ph

Tom
Click to expand...

The wings are removable----------I wonder if there are any connectors under there?? Pitot? Lights?

By the way, how many of you saw the "Gull Wing" look in the reflection in some of the photos---------------THAT would sure look sweet if it were real.

Mike
 
RV6junkie said:
I don't know about the tail dragger option. The main gear are tied to the structural section that carries the load for the wings. I would think that the main gear would need to be moved to the engine mount, like the RV-6/7/8, for a tail dragger. Even at that I still doubt we'll see a tail dragger.
Click to expand...

-8 doesn't attach to the engine mount. It attaches to those dang gear boxes. I agree though, I don't see a taildragger -12 either.
 
Gull Wing-12

Mike S said:
By the way, how many of you saw the "Gull Wing" look in the reflection in some of the photos---------------THAT would sure look sweet if it were real.

Mike
Click to expand...
ROFL... whew... I thought it was just me. I looked at that, and instantly thought - "How cool is that?!". Later I was a bit chagrined when I realized I'd fallen for an optical illusion.
 
I had a chat to Ken Kruger today about the RV-12, full span flaperons are to limit the auto control hookups to one (necessary because of thr removeable wings). LSA stall speed is in cruise configuration, so flaps do not help you with the rules, so flaperons were chosen. To enable trailering a smaller horiz stab was cosen, and was made all moving to provide necessary authority. Brakes are hydraulic with a cylinder at the base of the stick activated by the cable on the stick. Pop rivets are easier than solids - also means construction can be changed to allow a different sequence that does not have to provide access to the backside for bucking - so it won't be possible to use solids.

Pete
 
I dont think this 'first' version of Vans RV-12 (ok, I'm really hoping on this one) could be anything other than a tri-gear/ side by side. Nearly all of this first batch of LSA's is being aimed at 'new' Sport Pilots and the flight training schools their going to earn their wings at. If not for practicality, certainly for initial sales numbers. I would imagine most (not all) pilots earned their wings in a side by side tri-gear aircraft because that basic configuration lends itself to an easier learning environment.
Click to expand...


Also, a taildragger SLSA trainer aircraft at the present time is nearly impossible to insure.
 
RickS said:
Thanks for those links, wow that Rans LSA plane is very nice indeed...the aluminum design and construction looks very advanced and well thought out, beautifully made parts. The overall similarities are amazing.
Although when I added up the kit prices.. I had to gulp... over $25K for the Rans kits...
Hopefully the RV-12 will come in about $13,000 complete.
Does that sound in the ballpark?
Rick
Click to expand...

Hi Rick,

to be fair you need to exlcude the F/W forward / Engine package from the rans to compare to current RV's. When you do that it is still $20,000 for the same comparable kit. A little bit pricy I would say from a first glance. I doubt that we will see a significant price reduction compared to current 2 seater RV's. Here's hoping for a sub $15,000 rv12 kit, that will knock $5,000 of the Rans s-19.

http://www.rans.com/s19Pricing.html

Rans vs Vans...kind of funny, close in name, close in design. ;-)

Regards
Rudi
 
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WHAT WILL IT COST?

Van's RV-12 Flier said:
WHAT WILL IT COST?

The Light Sport Category was proposed, in part, to allow manufacturers to produce light airplanes at a lower cost. This has proved difficult to accomplish. Engines, wheels, brakes, sheet metal, instruments and other components cost just as much for a Light Sport airplane as they do for any other, so we expect prices to be similar to other RV kits.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you won't be building an RV-12 to save money over any other RV. Where you will (can?) save $$$ is on the panel. I'm thinking one Dynon D180, a radio, transponder, and intercom and you are good to go.
 
LSA Instrumentation

N941WR said:
Where you will (can?) save $$$ is on the panel. I'm thinking one Dynon D180, a radio, transponder, and intercom and you are good to go.
Click to expand...
Yep. I figure the near perfect LSA panel is a D180, GPS 296/396, Icom A200 or Garmin SL40, intercom and XPDR of choice. The Rotax doesn't need much in the way of engine monitoring, so the D180 should work great (tach, oil temp, oil press, 1xCHT, 2xEGT, fuel level and voltage; optional fuel flow, amps, etc.).
 
LSA Instrumentation

What's the scoop on the MGL Stratomaster products? For someone looking for an inexpensive LSA or VFR only panel - they seem to have a lot for the money - ie: Ultra Horizon XL. Also - their new (on the way?) Enigma has a TON of stuff integrated in... including if I understand their Q&A section - a built in Mode C Transponder. I don't know anything about their product, and had no responses on searching this forum... but products such as these continue to push the envelope and competition. There should be several strong and hopefully cost effective products out there by the time the -12 becomes available, and folks are ready for panel stuff.

dj
 
dash said:
The Rans S-19 is a kit built version of the S-LSA Aerostar Festival. Take a look: http://www.lightsportflying.com/ Van aircraft probably have the most trusted name in kitbuilt aircraft. There low wing, all metal aircraft have proven to be a great aircraft design. I've got to say though, that S-19 looks pretty nice. We'll see what the RV-12 looks like when finished. Hard to get a great idea as is.
Click to expand...
Are you sure it is the same plane? Some of the specs differ, such as wing-span. I believe that Lightsportflying is just selling the RAN's kit... Not sure if it is the same plane as the Festival. If you notice - the tail config is a bit different, and so is the shape of the canopy.
 
Baby Swift...

Guys, talking about taildragger configuration, the first thing I thought of when I saw those rear quarter windows was , it's a Swift clone shrunk down. :D
 
Dual Glass Panel RV

Anyone notice that the RV-12 will be the first factory RV with a glass panel? I asked Van about this whilst looking at the gaping square holes in the dash. Van replied that they are going to install both Dynon and Advanced Avionics units in the plane. They would be used for comparison and evaluation purposes.

Van's has gone glass. That is news :)

Warren
AHYUP
 
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