What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Tail Wheel Buidlers/Owners-I need your input

Pmerems

Pmerems

Well Known Member
Advertiser
I have been asked to consider the designing and manufacturing of a new Tail Wheel Lift for a prominent aircraft accessory company. Some years ago, a product known as the Tail-Mate was manufactured and sold, but it is no longer available. Given that I am currently involved in the production of the DRDT-2 and the TBBT-2, a Tail Wheel Lift seems to align well with my existing suppliers, contractors, and manufacturing.

As an RV-7A builder and owner, I have not needed to lift a tail wheel on an aircraft before. Just like the RV community, I am also growing older; now in my early 60s, I am finding tasks that were manageable in my 40s to be more challenging. Lifting with improper body positioning can lead to serious back issues and incur expensive medical costs.

However, I admit that I am not entirely certain about the level of demand in the market for this product. In the past, there were some remarks about the Tail-Mate's cost, which was around $350. My initial assessment suggests that a robust Tail Wheel Lift would likely cost a bit more, especially considering the price inflation since the early 2000s.

Therefore, I am reaching out to tail wheel aircraft builders and owners like you to gather your input. Is there genuine interest in a Tail Wheel Lift? Your feedback would greatly assist me in making a decision regarding the potential development of this product.

Any input would be appreciated.
 
I would be very happy to have one. As for price, you get what you pay for, 500 would probably be a mental limit for me.
 
I would probably buy one if it was rigid enough to support a person working in the cockpit.
 
Mikeyb said:
I would probably buy one if it was rigid enough to support a person working in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

It's plenty rigid enough to support a person working in the cockpit. Every time I go under the panel (updated that several times over the years) and every time I take off the baggage bulkhead (every annual), and every time I remove the cowl, I have the tail in the air on the lift. So much easier to work on the plane when it's level.

I've had my TailMate since 2007 or so and would be lost without it.

Now, if you're much over 200 lbs, I might have reservations about the TM holding up the airplane and you.
 
Never wanted one when I was younger and they were available.

I am now much OLDER and my body does not do all the things it use to.

Would be interested in one that is of the same quality as the original. Yes I would pay a reasonable fee but like "Widget", there would be a limit in how much I would pay.
 
Tail Lift

When I was building my -8, I bought a DRDT from Paul. Outstanding piece of equipment. Now, more than a several years down the road, I would be very excited to have a tail lift--get em built! I'm ready and waiting!
 
I’d buy one, especially if it’s $500 or less. But I’d like to have the option to lift on the spring, so I could use it to work on the wheel.
 
I will buy one.

Yes, I can pick the tail up by hand. As someone just getting over some back pain, due to stupid lifting, I will not lift the tail by hand.

Tell me where to send my money!
 
I have an original Tailmate, and couldn’t get by without it! With three RV’s to work on (all taildraggers), it is essential for lifting - it is just too awkward on the back to lift the tail frequently by hand. As for supporting the airplane when I’m in it, we do it all the time - but if you’re wired about it, use the Tailmate to lift, slide a support stand under the fuselage, and lower the Tailmate to put the weight on the stand - takes about ten more seconds.

Paul
 
Count me in

I'd like one! I lift the tail now by hand and set it on a harbor frieght under hoist stand that I then secure with ratchet straps.
 
I purchased a used Tail Mate about three years ago and love it. I also bolt a one by eight by about four foot piece of wood to the riser unit to R&R my lower cowl.
Works great

Bob Grigsby
RV3B. Going forward after a year of going backwards
J3C-65. Flying once a week
 
I built one a few years back for my 8 out of various material I had on hand patterned somewhat after the Tail Mate. Worked great on the 8 but its stablemate is a C180. I had to beef it up a bit for that so I’d recommend making it strong enough for a variety of aircraft.
 
Mikeyb said:
There is some concern from experienced VAF contributors that the original tail-mate was not rigid enough to support a person working in the plane

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=156785&page=3

And News flash
The CDC says the average weight of a US male over 20 years of age is 199.8 pounds.
Click to expand...

Actually, the concern from that other thread was crawling into the "rear of the plane" or empennage. I wouldn't do that either if only supported by a TM.

Mikeyb said:
I would probably buy one if it was rigid enough to support a person working in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

You asked if it was OK to work in the cockpit while supported by TM, and I still say that's fine. Been doing it for 16 years now.
 
What is all this tail lifting everyone is doing? In 8 years I have had to lift my tail twice to weigh the plane after I did some mods.
 
2018 Kitplanes article

Here's a nice one that Sam Buchanan came up with a while ago. I'm still trying to get mine to work. "Dolly" binds when I try to lower it back down, probably because I put the winch on the other side like the Tailmate for better clearance with a pulley wheel on the top and the angles are not quite right. Still working on it.
 
Last edited:
You'll notice in the ads for the original Tail-Mate in post #3, it can only support 100 pounds.

FWIW, The weight on the tailwheel of my RV-8 with full fuel, no people, and the longerons level, is 72 pounds.

As a safety measure, once I raise the tail, I put a work stand under the tailwheel with the Tail-Mate still in place and let the work stand take most of the load. If I want to work on the tailwheel, after I lift the tail I put a cushioned work stand under the tail wheel stinger, or one of the aft bulkheads, and remove the Tail-Mate.
 
Last edited:
A tip to manually lift the tail

I don't need a tool yet but I will in a few years.

I found out that it will make lifting the tail easier is to tie a 1 - 2 foot strap to the stinger and pull up the tail and then push up using the other arm.

The length of strap helps me to lift up the tail without having to bend down so far to hurt by back and I can lift it up to the height which allow me to grab the stinger with the other hand. By then the weight of the tail would be reduced.
 
I use the TM a lot

Not just as a leveling tool but during inspections it brings things up to a comfortable working level. I can also bring my 9 up to level for prop adjustments and what ever else requires it. Really handy to have around.
danny
 
I had been a manual 'tail lifter' for a while, setting the aft fuse on a padded sawhorse. When visiting Paul a few weeks ago, I saw his original Tail-Mate. He mentioned the plans had gone public domain, and I thought that was worth investigating. It was then I Googled upon Sam's wooden design, mentioned above. I adapted the design Sam shared in the Kitplanes article for about $100 in parts, plus the scraps around the hangar, and 10 hours of inefficient labor. I have used that lift six or so times in the last four weeks, putting the engine area in a proper attitude for oil draining, lifting the tail to clean and polish at the right height, etc. My manual "tail lifter" back is happy. Not sure I would pay the OP more than $300 given my recent experience.
 
Last edited:
I don't want to cut into anyone's future sales but I would prefer a way to lift the plane and not support.
I can find about anything to hold it after I get it lifted. I am still young enough to pick the weight up but it is very awkward to lift around the rudder.
This got me thinking of an inexpensive lifting tool.
Just a bar that will hook to the stinger and extend out past the rudder.
This would give additional leverage as well. Maybe long enough for two people when necessary to hold the bar (added leverage) but short enough not to hit the back of the hanger or storage racks.
If I remember correctly my TW weighed on 36# when plane was dry and empty.
 
I bought a used one from a hangar neighbor and use it all the time. Great gizmo.

A lot of people scoffed at the price originally, as many thought they could make one cheaper. And some did. But, many of us are at the point that we value our time and knowing what we get will work over that level of expense.

I have one of these (padded) to set the tail on if I'm going to be in the tailcone. Works great. Also available on Amazon. (Universal grinder stand)

https://www.harborfreight.com/universal-bench-grinder-stand-59196.html

Put Tail-Mate back in production! (and Tail-Lynx!)
 
I have a used original. Love it! One thing I would like in a new design is a bit more space between the tail strobe and the upright angled part of the frame (the hypotenuse of the triangle). Mine can make contact and I have to be sure the rudder is kicked to the side a bit.

Also, could your lift design possibly incorporate a tow bar feature?
 
Just as a possible design point, back before I retired, I was in the aerospace industry doing stress analysis. The requirement for ground support equipment, which this would be, was that the:

Factor of safety for yielding was 4.0
Factor of safety for failure was 5.0.

Dave
 
In Reply to Post # 24

I used to use a manual tug that required lifting the TW into a receiver - so this is what I did.

YMMV - but this worked for 30+ years.

HFS
 

Attachments

  • TUG - MANUAL.jpg
    TUG - MANUAL.jpg
    535.4 KB · Views: 108
  • Tug - Manual (Lift Arm).jpg
    Tug - Manual (Lift Arm).jpg
    697.2 KB · Views: 107
I received my Tail-Mate as an inheritance from my dearly departed friend, Ted Gauthier. I, too, am over 60 now and although physically possible, lifting the tail unassisted for me is an awkward strain. Ted's Tail-Mate has seen many years of service and is showing its own signs of age. The cable is fraying and I've already replaced the top pulley, which isn't up to the task in the original design. I actually toyed with manufacturing and marketing my own replacement, which would be much more robust. When I learned of the possibility of said well-known accessory distributors intent to do the same, I held off my own efforts, and if the new one comes to market I will consider getting one. I've also designed my own tail lift lever but have yet to finish or manufacture it. Each of these accessories have value to the tailwheel marketplace; I only hope that the market rebounds enough to make manufacturing worthwhile.
 
I built a TM copy

HFS said:
I used to use a manual tug that required lifting the TW into a receiver - so this is what I did.

YMMV - but this worked for 30+ years.

HFS
Click to expand...

I built one for my -7. Two modifications, one recommendation

#1- a tilting shoe of .050 steel so the tailwheel would roll on/off. Otherwise something like the above is needed to easily get the original lift point under a wheel.

#2 - stretched the wheelbase to accommodate the extra length of the -7 rudder.

#3 recommendation . . . I used thicker wall 1" square tubing and although it is plenty strong for holding for an annual, there is no safety pin and the lift force is always on the cable/belt and ratchet mechanism.
 
Last edited:
Getting into my my '60s I strained my back more than once lifting that thing (RV-6). My current solution is a Harbor Freight electric hoist. Works great but otherwise I would definitely get a tail-mate. Dunno what you'd charge but $250 seems not unreasonable to avoid back injuries.
 
I flew and maintained my RV-8 for nearly 20 years and never saw the need for this lift. Until I was given one! It is in constant use and sure makes cleaning the belly easier!
 
I have the original from mid 2000’s time frame.
It’s great.

Two gripes:

I lift the tail when I Jack the airplane to keep the Jack points and jacks as perpendicular as I can to the wing. No side loading. I will “fly” the tail if I don’t secure the tailwheel to the tail mate and weight the base.
If you’re designing a fresh design, but similar, design a way to load weight onto the base and easily tie or secure the tailwheel to the cradle.

The trolley will stick on the way down. The geometry of the trolley and wheels could be better.

That said - I put a small piece of plywood across the bottom and set a heavy vice on it for weight. If the trolley sticks a bit, it doesn’t take much effort to get it to slide down, just don’t let too much slack in the cable. Easy work arounds, but again, if you have a blank sheet, fix these minor things and make it even better!
 
I built a stand from some oak 1x6’s left over from when we built our house. At first I used a Harbor Freight jack under the stinger to lift the tail enough to roll the stand under the stinger but then I found out I could easily lift the tail and set the stinger on the stand. I glued some packing foam to the top of the stand as a cushion. With the mains chocked the stand is sturdy enough to work in the tail with no issues. I can easily perform tailwheel maintenance since the tail is supported by the stinger. It would be difficult to justify spending several hundred dollars for a tool to replace something that cost me a couple of hours of work.
 
werxcv01 said:
I built a stand from some oak 1x6’s left over from when we built our house. At first I used a Harbor Freight jack under the stinger to lift the tail enough to roll the stand under the stinger but then I found out I could easily lift the tail and set the stinger on the stand. I glued some packing foam to the top of the stand as a cushion. With the mains chocked the stand is sturdy enough to work in the tail with no issues. I can easily perform tailwheel maintenance since the tail is supported by the stinger. It would be difficult to justify spending several hundred dollars for a tool to replace something that cost me a couple of hours of work.
Click to expand...
I just set it on a sawhorse. However it's not what it goes on, it's the getting it up there. My RV-6, the weight on the TW is something over 50 lbs. RV-8s are a bit heavier back there as I recall. If it were a straight lift I'd be fine with it even at my advancing age, but with the side angle it takes to lift it, I'll usually wind up with a strained back if I do so manually. No doubt I'm not alone, hence the options presented here.
 
Tail-Lift pricing

Gents,

I appreciate your feedback on the need for a tail lift lifting system. I learned a lot from your replies. My updated design will address some of the deficiencies brought to my attention in the original Tail-Mate design. The Tail-Lift would be manufactured to same high quality professional standards of the DRDT-2 and TBBT-2.

I have completed my initial pricing assessment. Unfortunately costs have risen dramatically since the Tail-Mate was last sold in the mid 2000's. The Tail-Lift would retail for approximately $450 plus shipping. US Shipping would cost around $50. This product would be offered through aircraft tool retailers.

Please provide your candid thoughts about the pricing.

If you are interested in this product you can email me at [email protected] or a private message and I will add you to my list to keep you up to date on the development progress.
 
Pmerems said:
Gents,

I appreciate your feedback on the need for a tail lift lifting system. ...

I have completed my initial pricing assessment. Unfortunately costs have risen dramatically since the Tail-Mate was last sold in the mid 2000's. The Tail-Lift would retail for approximately $450 plus shipping. US Shipping would cost around $50. This product would be offered through aircraft tool retailers.

Please provide your candid thoughts about the pricing.

...
Click to expand...

I built one out of wood using Sam's design, and it works great. It took me much more time than I would have guessed, and knowing what I know now, I would have gladly paid $450 for a "tail-mate".

I might buy one if you produce it since I can't leave my wood lift in the hangar, so I have to lug it from the workshop to the hangar when I need it - and it's heavy. No idea if it's in your proposed design, but if it could be easily folded flat it would help space-limited people. Similar to the way an engine hoist can be "folded" to reduce floor space used. Perhaps pip pins in strategic places.

Best of luck!
 
provide your candid thoughts about the pricing
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, I think that price would be honest, and people would be interested enough...

As a reference I bought a MoJack EZ - Residential Riding Lawn Mower Lift as they call it, and had some welding done to it. A jackscrew powered by a square drive of any kind provides good and easy operation.
I'm in Europe, so the price quoted below are slightly higher than it would have been in the US:

  • MoJack EZ lift: $230
  • Welding labor and material (though I can weld some, I have no equipment at disposal): $250
So that lift came to a total of $480.

It's being used by the other tailwheel RVs on my field, and is working great. And that is a problem which might affect sales, most people needing one have already built their own, and might not be interested into buying another one.
$450 still buys some gas.
OTOH new RVs are being born almost daily, of those some taildraggers, all potential customers :)
 

Attachments

  • img_8478-480.jpg
    img_8478-480.jpg
    57.2 KB · Views: 108
Fellow RVer’s

Sorry for the long delay in releasing information on the Tail-Lift development. I am pleased to let you know that the Tail-Lift prototype has completed testing and is ready to go into production.

The new design has several design improvements over the older Tail-Mate™ offered years ago. These include:

  • A greater mechanical advantage for easier lifting
  • Wider stance for greater stability
  • Smooth belt operation
  • Improved roller design to decrease roller loading
  • Adjustable to accept larger tail wheels
  • Increased lifting load
Prices of materials and labor have increased over the years. I have spent a considerable amount of time and multiple iterations of the design to balance function, material costs, and manufacturability and shipping costs. The retail price is $500 plus shipping. Estimated shipping is ~$40.

I have been working with Blake Frazier owner of Flyboy Accessories (also the new owner of Cleaveland Aircraft Tools) to bring the Tail-Lift to market. We are determining the size of the initial production run. Blake has been collecting a list of customers who have expressed interest in the Tail-Lift. If you are interested in the Tail-Lift, please contact me at [email protected] and Blake at [email protected].

Thank you for your patience and continued support as we bring the Tail-Lift to market.
 

Attachments

  • 20240126_145904.jpg
    20240126_145904.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 242
  • Tail-Lift.pdf
    383.5 KB · Views: 153
Blake sent out an email late yesterday to the people on his list that were interested with the same info you have above. Blake said he did NOT want any money up front but I told him I would pay in advance if it helped him out.

If you did not get an email, see the above post on how to get on the list for the 1st production run.
 
Pmerems said:
I have been asked to consider the designing and manufacturing of a new Tail Wheel Lift for a prominent aircraft accessory company. Some years ago, a product known as the Tail-Mate was manufactured and sold, but it is no longer available. Given that I am currently involved in the production of the DRDT-2 and the TBBT-2, a Tail Wheel Lift seems to align well with my existing suppliers, contractors, and manufacturing.

As an RV-7A builder and owner, I have not needed to lift a tail wheel on an aircraft before. Just like the RV community, I am also growing older; now in my early 60s, I am finding tasks that were manageable in my 40s to be more challenging. Lifting with improper body positioning can lead to serious back issues and incur expensive medical costs.

However, I admit that I am not entirely certain about the level of demand in the market for this product. In the past, there were some remarks about the Tail-Mate's cost, which was around $350. My initial assessment suggests that a robust Tail Wheel Lift would likely cost a bit more, especially considering the price inflation since the early 2000s.

Therefore, I am reaching out to tail wheel aircraft builders and owners like you to gather your input. Is there genuine interest in a Tail Wheel Lift? Your feedback would greatly assist me in making a decision regarding the potential development of this product.

Any input would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I am interested in it, I have a 8 and a 14, it would be nice to have the same unit for both planes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top