You guys seriously need to get a girlfriend or somethin'...
Not in Alaska, it's always a cub clone....
And then there's *this* argument...
FAA Order 7360.1D Section 2-2 says:
f. ?Homebuilt,? ?amateur-built,? or ?kit plane? aircraft that exist in operationally significant numbers will be assigned a designator; however, these aircraft will only be listed under the original designer or under the manufacturer that produces or produced the aircraft type in series.
Since Van's models are listed, it's been argued that identifying as "RV XXXXX" is, as a matter of definition, identifying it as an amateur-built (and thus, experimental).
Just more grist for the mill
Carl chill out. I use to work with you at Boeing in Everett. My main point is RVee (3/4/6/7/8/10/14) + N# is sufficient to ID your "experimental nature". Why? Because RV's are defined or "codified" aircraft ID by the administrator (FAA). I accept disagreement, but frustration is not required.As pointed out previously in this thread, earlier Ops Lims have that proviso and later Ops Lims do not.
Also pointed out in an earlier post, it doesn't matter what one's Ops Lims say, since the requirement to inform the Control Tower of the Experimental nature of the aircraft is codified in CFR 91.319(d)(3).
"...(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers."
It's really frustrating when folks jump in at the end of a thread and don't read the previous posts. If you can't be bothered to read the previous posts, you'll probably post redundant or erroneous information.
As posted above by RV7A Flyer, the FAA Order clearly ID's Van's aircraft and others. I've been a pilot for 33 years, CFI, ATP. Controllers know experimental in general and RVs in particular from my experience. I never said all ATC.gmcjetpilot says:
" Most controllers are pilots/airplane fans.
They know what an RV is."
How do you know this?????
I can tell you that 2 sets of controllers at Beverly Municipal Airport did not know what an RV was.
FAA Order 7360.1D is not an FAR so it carries absolutely no authority on this issue.And then there's *this* argument...
FAA Order 7360.1D Section 2-2 says:
f. “Homebuilt,” “amateur-built,” or “kit plane” aircraft that exist in operationally significant numbers will be assigned a designator; however, these aircraft will only be listed under the original designer or under the manufacturer that produces or produced the aircraft type in series.
Since Van's models are listed, it's been argued that identifying as "RV XXXXX" is, as a matter of definition, identifying it as an amateur-built (and thus, experimental).
Just more grist for the mill
If ATC needs to know, they will ask.Be SAFE and LEGAL ATC needs to know speed and visually ID you on the ground or airborne near airport (big, small, twin, single, high, low wing).
That's what I do: I'm a Lancair LNC2. Many times they call me a Lance, but I'm faster than one of thoseIf ATC asks what kind of experimental I am, then I provide the official FAA/ICAO designation.
Well, now that we?ve got that settled, can we move on to something less contentious like overhead breaks or non-standard patterns?��
Well, now that we?ve got that settled, can we move on to something less contentious like overhead breaks or non-standard patterns?��
glug glug glug,....
That's the sound of 100LL being poured onto the campfire.
Soooooo, are overhead breaks OK at non-towered airport.
Glug, glug glug,....
That's the sound of 100LL being poured onto the campfire.
Soooooo, are overhead breaks OK at non-towered airport.
Soooooo, are overhead breaks OK at non-towered airport.
Wrong, again. I hope you're being facetious. There's no requirement for "experimental" in any radio call except to the first approach/tower contact and continued for clarity only if they repeat it.
But for rare instances, there's no statutory requirement for any radio transmission at a non-towered airport.
Jeeze, after 13 pages of back and forth, you'd think this point was settled.
John Siebold
It was settled - pages and pages ago. You are required to use the word "experimental" on your first call-up. After that it's not required.
Sorry, no. The reg says you are required to "Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft..."
There's a difference, legally
No.Then isn't "Van's" equivalent to saying "experimental", except for the 12 (which may be professionally built).
That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use. There are no other VAN aircraft manufacturers according to FAA. There' are several thousand RVs flying, which far exceeds many certified models. Not sure what the point is, but in the world of experimental aircraft Van's models are one of the most prolific and well-known. In the total GA population Van's Aircraft, a round over 40 years, and are not a minority by any stretch."Vans" is only the manufacturer of a very small number of the 10,000+ Airplanes identified as RV's
As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.That's not true according to the FAA order. Van is the recognized manufacturer, and every one of the Van's Aircraft from rv-3 to rv-14 is listed in this official document. Orders and Notices are mandatory for FAA internal use.
EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is.It was settled - pages and pages ago. You are required to use the word "experimental" on your first call-up. After that it's not required.
Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha. You are free to ignore the fact that the FAA recognizes the Van's RV types as they do a Boeing 747. It is useful to know. If you file a flight plan, it is a recognized (by FAA) make/model type along with its description 1P/S, which is 1 engine, piston, small and wake turb index F ICAO weight: Light. This is what ATC has access to do their job. Note: FAA ATC considers "Van's" as manufacture not builder for ATC purposes. For type designation (model) omit hyphen.As you point out, FAA orders and documents are mandatory for FAA internal use ONLY. They do not apply to anyone else and do not override the FAR's.
EXACTLY, but some people insist on justifying what they do no matter what the reality is.
Mandatory for FAA personel. They are the boss of you. Ha ha.
See this thread's post #115 for what I do when ATC asks me about my experimental.Again say experimental. That is perfect. If Tower comes back say what type, what will you say? Vans' RVx. If they say what's that? Small, light, single piston engine low wing 2 place airplane I guess. If tower say oh a Grumman Yankee.. land at another Airport.
There, I highlighted your own post for you to understand.What is an Order?
ANSWER:*FAA Orders*are published by the*FAA for*FAA*personnel. These documents outline procedures for performing their job functions. The acronym JO is used in the*FAA*Air Traffic Control*order numbering system and stands for Job*Order.
10/12/17
AIM 4-2-4. a.
3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft
type, model or manufacturer?s name, followed by the
digits/letters of the registration number. When the
aircraft manufacturer?s name or model is stated, the
prefix ?N? is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four
Alpha.
EXAMPLE−
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit
?Experimental? after initial contact).
That's the way I say it, but my aircraft type doesn't consist of two letters. I think that's where the confusion comes in. Most of the RV guys at my airport omit the aircraft type and say "Experimental XXXX". Tower always knows it's an RV when they see it take off like a rocketI note that no one pays attention to the example above, placing "Experimental" AFTER the tail number.
10/12/17
AIM 4-2-4. a.
3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft
type, model or manufacturer?s name, followed by the
digits/letters of the registration number. When the
aircraft manufacturer?s name or model is stated, the
prefix ?N? is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four
Alpha.
EXAMPLE−
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit
?Experimental? after initial contact).
To be legal and avoid confusion, you make your initial contact as "Experimental 123". After that you can say "Experimental 123", "RV123", "Cutiepie 123" or whatever floats your boat. Be warned, some controllers might have an issue with something other than "Experimental 123" but they will quickly let you know.Ok, so after reading all these posts on pages one through fourteen, I'm still confused about first contact with tower.
If I say "Experimental RV8 123" does ATC now believe my N number is 123 or 8123?
I have used "Experimental 123" and been asked "say type" to which I replied "RV". ATC comes back with "what kind of RV?"
So now its "Experimental RV8 November 123"