Wait a minute - are we talking about airplanes or politics here?
Kidding.. kidding - well, only a little...
Van's Air Force
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RV hate
- Thread starter luddite42
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Wait a minute - are we talking about airplanes or politics here?
Kidding.. kidding - well, only a little...
"........when operating into or out of an airport with an operational control tower."
Louise Hose
Well Known Member
I'll do it
Thanks, Katie. I'll send them a note. I have to say that I am shocked that a "inside-the-beltway-mentality" bureaucracy like the AOPA allows itself to support this sort of image of pilots. Makes you wonder if any manager working there has ever visited their own site?
Thanks, Katie. I'll send them a note. I have to say that I am shocked that a "inside-the-beltway-mentality" bureaucracy like the AOPA allows itself to support this sort of image of pilots. Makes you wonder if any manager working there has ever visited their own site?
Rightly or wrongly.....
Perception is reality. As we are all too well aware, the experimental community is currently under FAA?s microscope for having an accident rate that is too high. I think we can all agree that nothing good can come from this type of scrutiny!
I am sure we all have seen or at least read about bonehead maneuvers by pilots. Unfortunately, far too many of them start out with narratives like:
?The Glasair pilot was attempting to perform a low level loop and crashed into a Roseville house killing himself and one person on the ground?
?The Cozy pilot crashed into the far side of the rock quarry after buzzing his friend that was operating a bulldozer in the rock quarry.?
?The Velocity crashed into a busy Northern Las Vegas neighborhood killing the pilot and 2 people on the ground.?
All of these reports are real, and none of them start with ?The Cessna Pilot?. In the case of the Velocity, this accident even prompted the City council to pass a law that prohibited all Experimental aircraft from flying in to Northern Las Vegas airport. Fortunately, the law was repealed.
Many on this thread have pointed out that the Overhead break is perfectly legal. Great, but the perception is it is an aggressive ?hot dog? maneuver by many in the GA pilot community. I question the wisdom in doing something that is just going to **** people off, even if it is legal.
The RV is a great ?aerobatic capable? aircraft and I don?t begrudge any of you that want to exploit that capability. It just makes sense that it be done in a responsible way in a practice area over sparse population.
As the ship?s captain said to Maverick on ?Top Gun????Your reputation (meaning all of us in the Experimental community) ain't the best. You need to be doing it better and cleaner than the next guy!?
Like it or not, it is our responsibility to police our own because I don?t think any of us will like the consequences if we don?t!
Just my two cents.
Jon Dembs
Cozy 973
Perception is reality. As we are all too well aware, the experimental community is currently under FAA?s microscope for having an accident rate that is too high. I think we can all agree that nothing good can come from this type of scrutiny!
I am sure we all have seen or at least read about bonehead maneuvers by pilots. Unfortunately, far too many of them start out with narratives like:
?The Glasair pilot was attempting to perform a low level loop and crashed into a Roseville house killing himself and one person on the ground?
?The Cozy pilot crashed into the far side of the rock quarry after buzzing his friend that was operating a bulldozer in the rock quarry.?
?The Velocity crashed into a busy Northern Las Vegas neighborhood killing the pilot and 2 people on the ground.?
All of these reports are real, and none of them start with ?The Cessna Pilot?. In the case of the Velocity, this accident even prompted the City council to pass a law that prohibited all Experimental aircraft from flying in to Northern Las Vegas airport. Fortunately, the law was repealed.
Many on this thread have pointed out that the Overhead break is perfectly legal. Great, but the perception is it is an aggressive ?hot dog? maneuver by many in the GA pilot community. I question the wisdom in doing something that is just going to **** people off, even if it is legal.
The RV is a great ?aerobatic capable? aircraft and I don?t begrudge any of you that want to exploit that capability. It just makes sense that it be done in a responsible way in a practice area over sparse population.
As the ship?s captain said to Maverick on ?Top Gun????Your reputation (meaning all of us in the Experimental community) ain't the best. You need to be doing it better and cleaner than the next guy!?
Like it or not, it is our responsibility to police our own because I don?t think any of us will like the consequences if we don?t!
Just my two cents.
Jon Dembs
Cozy 973
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
Boy, we don't need to rehash this whole argument again!
[ed. If it'll help, I'll go ahead and invoke Godwin's Law in order to jump to its inevitable ending: "Hitler". dr
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law]
Wow, I really didn't expect that kind of backlash to my remarks.
"Hitler".... where did THAT come from!??? That hurts!
KatieB
Well Known Member
This is precisely why I hope they read our emails and take action to moderate the stupidity on the "Red Board," lest the Feds assume we're all like that. I am not renewing my AOPA membership until they do something about it.
mkjprice
Active Member
No big deal!
The guy that is complaining apparently has more time on his hands than flight time. He makes a comment to the effect that he "doesn't need another web board coming down on him". He has over 9,000 posts in 4 years. He averages more than 6 posts a day on this single web board.
Should the offending pilot had better communication and better situational awareness? More than likely yes.
What I think is the real issue here is similar to the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge vs whatever other brand you like. Spam Can guys don't like homebuilt guys because they think we cheated our way into flying because we did it cheaper and have planes with better performance. Yes this is a generalization too.
We all know what opinions are like. Everybody has one!
I recommend that we as aviators stick to the regs that we agreed too when we got our tickets. I also feel that for the most part, most of us do. The golden rule applies in every situation it is tried. Just be good neighbors and that will make you a friendly pilot.
My 2 cents - Spend as you will!
The guy that is complaining apparently has more time on his hands than flight time. He makes a comment to the effect that he "doesn't need another web board coming down on him". He has over 9,000 posts in 4 years. He averages more than 6 posts a day on this single web board.
Should the offending pilot had better communication and better situational awareness? More than likely yes.
What I think is the real issue here is similar to the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge vs whatever other brand you like. Spam Can guys don't like homebuilt guys because they think we cheated our way into flying because we did it cheaper and have planes with better performance. Yes this is a generalization too.
We all know what opinions are like. Everybody has one!
I recommend that we as aviators stick to the regs that we agreed too when we got our tickets. I also feel that for the most part, most of us do. The golden rule applies in every situation it is tried. Just be good neighbors and that will make you a friendly pilot.
My 2 cents - Spend as you will!
KatieB
Well Known Member
Wow, if he spent as much time in the workshop as he does online, he could have built his own RV by now!!
Wait, why am I still on the computer???
mkjprice
Active Member
Poster Bruce Chien
States that he is an advocate for pilots that have medical conditions that would prevent them from getting a 3th class medical. However - he appears to be a large hater of people that don't fly spam cans. He puts flamatory comments the AOPA discussion board with no knowledge of the persons the comments are about.
Seems to be no love for kit built pilots. This person also appears to have too much time on their hands. 22,000 posts in 6 years. That is over 3600 posts a year and over 10 per day. I know you can have a strecth where you post a lot but then, most likely you read a lot more posts than you write.
I believe the worst fact about Mr Chien is that he is a part of the AOPA's Board of Aviation Medical Advisors. If this is the kind of people that the has the AOPA's ear, experimental aviation will not last long, and as that goes away so will general aviation. Just because you may be an expert, it doesn't mean that you have to say something. Not all criticism is constructive - as a matter of fact it appears to be more destructive.
Just my 2 cents again - spend it as you will.
States that he is an advocate for pilots that have medical conditions that would prevent them from getting a 3th class medical. However - he appears to be a large hater of people that don't fly spam cans. He puts flamatory comments the AOPA discussion board with no knowledge of the persons the comments are about.
Seems to be no love for kit built pilots. This person also appears to have too much time on their hands. 22,000 posts in 6 years. That is over 3600 posts a year and over 10 per day. I know you can have a strecth where you post a lot but then, most likely you read a lot more posts than you write.
I believe the worst fact about Mr Chien is that he is a part of the AOPA's Board of Aviation Medical Advisors. If this is the kind of people that the has the AOPA's ear, experimental aviation will not last long, and as that goes away so will general aviation. Just because you may be an expert, it doesn't mean that you have to say something. Not all criticism is constructive - as a matter of fact it appears to be more destructive.
Just my 2 cents again - spend it as you will.
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mkjprice
Active Member
EVERY pattern entry be it at controlled or uncontrolled field "should be done with caution making sure there won't be any conflict with other acft in the pattern"
Show me an entry technique which doesn't require this very basic of concepts?
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
About a week ago I was coming in from the southeast. A weight shift trike was on downwind. When I announced some position (45 to downwind?) the trike pilot said he would do something to get out of my way (because I was faster).
I countermanded that idea and told him that he had priority and I adjusted my flight path.
Just play nice when you can.
I countermanded that idea and told him that he had priority and I adjusted my flight path.
Just play nice when you can.
WhiskeyMike
Well Known Member
It is not unusual to have a certain amount of friendly, good natured rivalry between the owners of different brands of cars, trucks, motorcycles, airplanes, etc. But in some circles (that is, with some people) the tone of this rivalry rises to an unhealthy level of animus and small mindedness. The AOPA and POA threads referenced by the OP provide an excellent (and unfortunate) example of just such an exhibition.
Folks, as a Moderator, can I ask that don't call people names - even people on other boards that are saying bad things about us? I can't edit titles in threads, so I can't remive the language - let's just hold ourselves to a higher standard...OK?
This thread has been remarkably civil so far - let's please keep it that way.
This thread has been remarkably civil so far - let's please keep it that way.
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
The AOPA (AKA "red") board is notorious for animosity towards the homebuilt/experimental crowd. That's a self-perpetuating thing because it ends up running off people with opposing points of view.
Pilots Of America (the Blue board) is a little more friendly, and the thread there was probably a "me too" thread prompted by the AOPA thread. You see many of the same posters in both places.
You'll also find most of the same posters on the Purple Board as well. The tone on that board is more collegial than the POA board and MUCH more collegial than the AOPA board.
[ed. If I have to pick a color for my board, I'm going with coral (not pink). dr]
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LifeofReiley
Well Known Member
Well...
This thread will probably end soon... I truly believe, most RV pilots are safe and respect others. On this VAF Forum as it is moderated to the max control level, I see this thread probably closed or removed soon. What we need to learn is to fly safe, be courteous of other pilots and have fun while doing it!
This thread will probably end soon... I truly believe, most RV pilots are safe and respect others. On this VAF Forum as it is moderated to the max control level, I see this thread probably closed or removed soon. What we need to learn is to fly safe, be courteous of other pilots and have fun while doing it!
WhiskeyMike
Well Known Member
In the event that your request was prompted by my post, may I point out that I did not call any person a name! Moreover, I agree that doing so would be inappropriate. My comments were carefully worded with the intention of describing the overall tone that is present in multiple posts from multiple posters on those websites, and certainly NOT directed toward any person or individual. To my mind this is an important distinction...
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DakotaHawk
Well Known Member
Have you taken another pilot for a ride in your RV?
I went through my logbook the other evening after updating my Oshkosh trip. I counted the number of passengers that I've given a "first flight in an RV". There are about 12 Young Eagles, 6 non-pilot adults, and 6 pilots. Those numbers are since Jan 2011! If someone shows enough interest, I'll pop the canopy and let them sit in my plane. And if they really show even more interest, and I like them, I'll offer them a quick 15 minute flight.
These quick flights do wonders for everyone involved. Kids come away from a flight and talk about it for weeks. They post pictures on Facebook. They tell everyone how cool it was. Adults have a blast. I always try to get a picture of them while in flight. They always have a huge grin! And pilots are the best! After listening to two Cessna and a Bonanza pilot talk for several days at the Arlington Fly In, I took all three of them (and one spouse) for a flight. I've heard from two of these pilots, saying "I want an RV - the spam can just isn't cutting it anymore."
The point is that a) sharing the RV Grin is fun! and b) Spam Can pilots can see a carefully and safely flown RV, and possibly help dispel some of the flames when someone brings up them gosh-dang RV hotrods!
I went through my logbook the other evening after updating my Oshkosh trip. I counted the number of passengers that I've given a "first flight in an RV". There are about 12 Young Eagles, 6 non-pilot adults, and 6 pilots. Those numbers are since Jan 2011! If someone shows enough interest, I'll pop the canopy and let them sit in my plane. And if they really show even more interest, and I like them, I'll offer them a quick 15 minute flight.
These quick flights do wonders for everyone involved. Kids come away from a flight and talk about it for weeks. They post pictures on Facebook. They tell everyone how cool it was. Adults have a blast. I always try to get a picture of them while in flight. They always have a huge grin! And pilots are the best! After listening to two Cessna and a Bonanza pilot talk for several days at the Arlington Fly In, I took all three of them (and one spouse) for a flight. I've heard from two of these pilots, saying "I want an RV - the spam can just isn't cutting it anymore."
The point is that a) sharing the RV Grin is fun! and b) Spam Can pilots can see a carefully and safely flown RV, and possibly help dispel some of the flames when someone brings up them gosh-dang RV hotrods!
Wow, if he spent as much time in the workshop as he does online, he could have built his own RV by now!!
Wait, why am I still on the computer???
its like a drug, it is addictive
This thread will probably end soon... I truly believe, most RV pilots are safe and respect others. On this VAF Forum as it is moderated to the max control level, I see this thread probably closed or removed soon. What we need to learn is to fly safe, be courteous of other pilots and have fun while doing it!
Actually, as has been pointed out many times in the past, the actual number of posts that get edited/changed/deleted here on the VAF forums is something like about 0.001% - this board is essentially self-moderating because most of the individuals that come here to exchange information and ideas are good and decent folks who want to be (and want to be perceived as) courteous and polite. Frankly, it works amazingly well, and it seems to be based purely on peer review.
I can't imagine how an organization with supposed national prestige like AOPA can let discussion get as rancorous and downright ugly as the one over on their forum. I am no longer an AOPA member, and won't be under their current operating philosophy. And that is an example of what a very small percentage of bad apples can do to a forum - or an organization.
Paul
Ugh.... I hadn't looked at that thread because it required I look up my AOPA userid and password. Part of me wishes I hadn't and part of me is glad I did. I have felt for some time that AOPA simply tolerates the experimental side of aviation. Allowing behaviors such as Chien's is abhorrent and not deserving of being supported by my annual dues. I have joined you folks and sent a message, though I doubt it will fall on anything but a bit bucket.
Maybe we can put up a public survey on 'Survey Monkey' asking things along the lines of
- are you an AOPA member?
- do you believe AOPA should have a moderator for their forums?
- do you believe the AOPA unmoderated forums are detrimental to aviation in general and experimental aviation in particular?
- if you are an AOPA member do you feel you can continue to support them in light of the fact that they cannot properly moderate their own forums for the benefit of all in aviation?
Someone more articulate than me can chime in here. I'd be happy to handle the survey and present the findings to AOPA
Mike D
Well Known Member
Please have the big picture in mind
I understand we are all upset because a few members over on the red boards are bashing RV's. But keep in mind we pilots are few in numbers and getting smaller all the time. We need organizations like the AOPA to protect our freedom to fly. I may not like everything every member said, and I may think that the AOPA is a huge political machine, but it is working in part for me. So, I won't let some undisciplined emotional outrage by a few [AOPA] members keep me from supporting a organization that is working for me.
Please note there are a few non-RV pilots on the red boards defending us also.
Just my thoughts and you are free to vote with your dollars as you wish.
I understand we are all upset because a few members over on the red boards are bashing RV's. But keep in mind we pilots are few in numbers and getting smaller all the time. We need organizations like the AOPA to protect our freedom to fly. I may not like everything every member said, and I may think that the AOPA is a huge political machine, but it is working in part for me. So, I won't let some undisciplined emotional outrage by a few [AOPA] members keep me from supporting a organization that is working for me.
Please note there are a few non-RV pilots on the red boards defending us also.
Just my thoughts and you are free to vote with your dollars as you wish.
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
mud wrasslin'
That survey should get the AOPA trolls fired up! (knowing it was hatched from the VAF community)
The problem with wrasslin' with a pig in a mudhole is that to a bystander it looks like two pigs wrasslin'......
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!
(My twenty year run with AOPA ended this year...)
Ugh.... I hadn't looked at that thread because it required I look up my AOPA userid and password. Part of me wishes I hadn't and part of me is glad I did. I have felt for some time that AOPA simply tolerates the experimental side of aviation. Allowing behaviors such as Chien's is abhorrent and not deserving of being supported by my annual dues. I have joined you folks and sent a message, though I doubt it will fall on anything but a bit bucket.
Maybe we can put up a public survey on 'Survey Monkey' asking things along the lines of
- are you an AOPA member?
- do you believe AOPA should have a moderator for their forums?
- do you believe the AOPA unmoderated forums are detrimental to aviation in general and experimental aviation in particular?
- if you are an AOPA member do you feel you can continue to support them in light of the fact that they cannot properly moderate their own forums for the benefit of all in aviation?
Someone more articulate than me can chime in here. I'd be happy to handle the survey and present the findings to AOPA
That survey should get the AOPA trolls fired up! (knowing it was hatched from the VAF community)
The problem with wrasslin' with a pig in a mudhole is that to a bystander it looks like two pigs wrasslin'......
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!
(My twenty year run with AOPA ended this year...)
rocketbob
Well Known Member
Mine did too. The December Avweb article on salary/staffing levels at AOPA were enough for me.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Until now..............I didn't realise that some people have severe mental problems with roundels, stars & stripes, invasion stripes, and lastly...........checkered tails. Can I help it, as I grew up around aircraft from a war era. My father owned one..............and we visited the airport often. My favorite is still the P-51. Does this automatically make me a renegade biker..........type pilot/wannabe? Apparently..
L.Adamson --- RV6A with stars & invasion stripes
L.Adamson --- RV6A with stars & invasion stripes
KatieB
Well Known Member
I agree with you, and also wondered whether it was worth making a stink over this. We do need AOPA to remain strong. But, what threw me over the edge was NOT that a few people were upset with a few jerk RV pilots. That, I can understand and tolerate. We do the same ranting over here sometimes. It was that Dr. Bruce Chien, someone supposedly labeled as an expert and a professional by AOPA, is acting so unprofessional and indecent about it by making blanket insults about the entire RV and experimental community. I would expect someone with his education, experience and high profile to be more the voice of reason, not generalization and speculation.
By the way, Mike, that was an excellent response to their post on the red board-- if that was you, thank you. (Post #151)
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Hi. I am new here, but have been interested in RV's for many years. I am active over at the POA boards and saw the thread you're all referencing. I am also on AOPA, but not so much, so haven't seen the thread there. Can someone post a link to it as I can not find it.
First, let me say, that I am probably one of the RV defenders as I have encountered "Grumman hate" since owning my Tiger for 11 years. Not trying to kiss *ss here, but I feel I've somewhat walked in your shoes. I think there is an element of jealousy for RV's, and to a lesser extent Grummans, just because they are different and may have some enhanced performance capabilities. Certainly the RV's have aerobatic and speed capabilites well beyond the typical Cessna, Piper, etc. People are afraid of what they don't know and all things different. I think that is silly.
I really enjoy all the different paint schemes, especially the ones tha pay homage to the warbirds. Great stuff.
In almost 20 years of private GA flying I have not had a poor encounter with an RV, just the opposite. Bonanzas on the other hand.
Keep the building and flying up and enjoy your planes!
First, let me say, that I am probably one of the RV defenders as I have encountered "Grumman hate" since owning my Tiger for 11 years. Not trying to kiss *ss here, but I feel I've somewhat walked in your shoes. I think there is an element of jealousy for RV's, and to a lesser extent Grummans, just because they are different and may have some enhanced performance capabilities. Certainly the RV's have aerobatic and speed capabilites well beyond the typical Cessna, Piper, etc. People are afraid of what they don't know and all things different. I think that is silly.
I really enjoy all the different paint schemes, especially the ones tha pay homage to the warbirds. Great stuff.
In almost 20 years of private GA flying I have not had a poor encounter with an RV, just the opposite. Bonanzas on the other hand.
Keep the building and flying up and enjoy your planes!
I had to stop reading the POA thread, because three pages into it I wanted to join the forum just to give my $0.02. But there's no point. It would be like walking into a Catholic church and trying to convince the congregation that the Bible is a work of fiction.
I've watched a fair number of "hot dogs" in everything from J-5 Cubs to P-51 Mustangs fly out of my local field. One thing that's certain, the type of airplane doesn't mean anything. Certified, Amateur-built, and Warbird circles all have a percentage of pilots who insist on flying their own way, to heck with the regs or common sense.
All we can do is do our best, and try to change the perception of our community through our own actions. And carry our potato as discreetly as possible.
I've watched a fair number of "hot dogs" in everything from J-5 Cubs to P-51 Mustangs fly out of my local field. One thing that's certain, the type of airplane doesn't mean anything. Certified, Amateur-built, and Warbird circles all have a percentage of pilots who insist on flying their own way, to heck with the regs or common sense.
All we can do is do our best, and try to change the perception of our community through our own actions. And carry our potato as discreetly as possible.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Links are on the first post........page one.
N8RV
Well Known Member
I, too, sent an e-mail to Craig Fuller, although I know that it won't make it past his minions and if it did, would have no substantive effect.
We're often told, "Don't shoot the messenger," but this appears to me to be a time that the message is on target but the messenger is not. My beef is not with the message that we homebuilders are statistically in need of further diligence in our aviating, and maybe we RVers in particular need to crack the whip on stupid pilot tricks. However, the messenger -- in this case, a handful of opinionated bullies on the AOPA forum -- are what have me riled up. Such diatribes would NOT be tolerated on VAF and, as frustrating as it can be sometimes, it allows civil discourse to be enjoyed and camaraderie fostered. Thanks, Doug and moderators.
Face it, folks -- we have come to age in interesting times. Aviation is still in its infancy, yet we've gone from the Wright brothers to the moon in mere decades! And, in those times, we've had a few wars that spawned tons of books, movies and hangar flying stories that most of us grew up dreaming of.
Who among us hasn't watched some movie or read a book about young whippersnapper lieutenants terrorizing the British countryside in Mustangs and Spitfires, flying under bridges and buzzing towns? Well, just as the art of dogfighting with piston fighters has come and gone, so too have the antics of the patrons of the Happy Bottom Flying Club of yesteryear. *sigh*
Do today's young hotshot fighter jocks get to enjoy such highjinks? I'm not thinking so. The stakes are far too high nowadays to allow to occur the stuff that made up our dreams. So, too, must similar highjinks cease in today's society. Even out in the middle of nowhere a fun stunt that goes wrong can have tremendously ill effects on the entire GA community and homebuilders in particular, as I think those threads exemplify.
Maybe I'm just an old fart whose days of flying on the edge have similarly come and gone, but I think I may just expend a little more effort to be the safest, most courteous pilot I can be. I don't see a downside to it.
Although I don't plan to drop my AOPA membership just yet, I have no plans to participate in the AOPA forum, either. I do sincerely hope that AOPA reigns in the incivility. It serves no one but the loudmouths, and paints the entire community with a broad, ugly brush.
We're often told, "Don't shoot the messenger," but this appears to me to be a time that the message is on target but the messenger is not. My beef is not with the message that we homebuilders are statistically in need of further diligence in our aviating, and maybe we RVers in particular need to crack the whip on stupid pilot tricks. However, the messenger -- in this case, a handful of opinionated bullies on the AOPA forum -- are what have me riled up. Such diatribes would NOT be tolerated on VAF and, as frustrating as it can be sometimes, it allows civil discourse to be enjoyed and camaraderie fostered. Thanks, Doug and moderators.
Face it, folks -- we have come to age in interesting times. Aviation is still in its infancy, yet we've gone from the Wright brothers to the moon in mere decades! And, in those times, we've had a few wars that spawned tons of books, movies and hangar flying stories that most of us grew up dreaming of.
Who among us hasn't watched some movie or read a book about young whippersnapper lieutenants terrorizing the British countryside in Mustangs and Spitfires, flying under bridges and buzzing towns? Well, just as the art of dogfighting with piston fighters has come and gone, so too have the antics of the patrons of the Happy Bottom Flying Club of yesteryear. *sigh*
Do today's young hotshot fighter jocks get to enjoy such highjinks? I'm not thinking so. The stakes are far too high nowadays to allow to occur the stuff that made up our dreams. So, too, must similar highjinks cease in today's society. Even out in the middle of nowhere a fun stunt that goes wrong can have tremendously ill effects on the entire GA community and homebuilders in particular, as I think those threads exemplify.
Maybe I'm just an old fart whose days of flying on the edge have similarly come and gone, but I think I may just expend a little more effort to be the safest, most courteous pilot I can be. I don't see a downside to it.
Although I don't plan to drop my AOPA membership just yet, I have no plans to participate in the AOPA forum, either. I do sincerely hope that AOPA reigns in the incivility. It serves no one but the loudmouths, and paints the entire community with a broad, ugly brush.
Mike D
Well Known Member
Katie,
Yep that was me. Thanks.
Just because you are the boss, the manager, have a PHD or any other form of qualification does not make you right or justified in making (seemingly) blanket statements or personal attacks. And I would not expect the AOPA to correct Dr. Chien in any way. But I hope we can distill the message out of the frustration he has.
Paul and others have said it many times here on VAF, we need to become better at policing ourselves and acting as though others are watching with the intent to follow in our footsteps. This is all Dr. Chien is asking for.
As much as I think Dr. Chien could approach the subject in a more sensitive way, I do see the point in his posts. Shame on Dr. Chin for not having the emotional discipline to state his views in a more digestible manner, but his message is still there. We (RV?ers) have a problem.
DR, Van and countless others have warned us not to engage in the show boating behavior we see that gets people killed (and give GA a bad name). Buzzing and low level acro (outside an airshow) is killing fellow pilots and giving us a bad rep. Unfortunately, RV?s are the target of the outrage and not the SR22 pilot that buzzed the beach in Galveston, or the Cherokee that overflew me by 100-feet at final approach to Oshkosh.
Also, many of the ?showboat RV pilots? are not even on VAF. But we, as a whole, will get blamed.
General aviation has a public relations problem. And as a subset RV?ers have a PR problem with some of the GA community. We need to fix this the best we can. Because we cannot reach or control all RV?ers, we need to let people like Dr. Chien that we are doing what we can to correct the issues.
With all this being said, I think it is quite sad that this falls on the coat tails of the death of one of the most generous, knowledgeable and talented pilots around. Dennis would make time to help anyone out, RV or non-RV alike. He was a great PR person for general aviation. During my flight reviews with him, he took the time and care to get me to learn emergency procedures and alternative navigation methods. This was to keep me from being one of those statistics that Dr. Chien references. He was one of those people who were trying to be a solution to this PR issue that RV?s and general aviation has. This is what Freedom Flight is all about.
Yep that was me. Thanks.
Just because you are the boss, the manager, have a PHD or any other form of qualification does not make you right or justified in making (seemingly) blanket statements or personal attacks. And I would not expect the AOPA to correct Dr. Chien in any way. But I hope we can distill the message out of the frustration he has.
Paul and others have said it many times here on VAF, we need to become better at policing ourselves and acting as though others are watching with the intent to follow in our footsteps. This is all Dr. Chien is asking for.
As much as I think Dr. Chien could approach the subject in a more sensitive way, I do see the point in his posts. Shame on Dr. Chin for not having the emotional discipline to state his views in a more digestible manner, but his message is still there. We (RV?ers) have a problem.
DR, Van and countless others have warned us not to engage in the show boating behavior we see that gets people killed (and give GA a bad name). Buzzing and low level acro (outside an airshow) is killing fellow pilots and giving us a bad rep. Unfortunately, RV?s are the target of the outrage and not the SR22 pilot that buzzed the beach in Galveston, or the Cherokee that overflew me by 100-feet at final approach to Oshkosh.
Also, many of the ?showboat RV pilots? are not even on VAF. But we, as a whole, will get blamed.
General aviation has a public relations problem. And as a subset RV?ers have a PR problem with some of the GA community. We need to fix this the best we can. Because we cannot reach or control all RV?ers, we need to let people like Dr. Chien that we are doing what we can to correct the issues.
With all this being said, I think it is quite sad that this falls on the coat tails of the death of one of the most generous, knowledgeable and talented pilots around. Dennis would make time to help anyone out, RV or non-RV alike. He was a great PR person for general aviation. During my flight reviews with him, he took the time and care to get me to learn emergency procedures and alternative navigation methods. This was to keep me from being one of those statistics that Dr. Chien references. He was one of those people who were trying to be a solution to this PR issue that RV?s and general aviation has. This is what Freedom Flight is all about.
RVbySDI
Well Known Member
Thank you for the vote of confidence. I am sure it will not change much on that forum. However, by calling a spade a spade, it most assuredly made me feel better in stating it.RVbySDI,
For what it's worth, I thought your initial post over on the other forum proclaiming your displeasure was spot on. I enjoyed reading it and 100% agreed with it but as you've seen, it didn't produce much. If it's any consolation, it made me feel better!!
The typecast bashing going on over there has no place in any intelligent discussion no matter what the topic. To think there was a "supposedly" highly educated individual leading the fray makes it even worse.
I too have mixed emotions about my support of AOPA. I feel it is just another one of those large bureaucracies whose major purpose is to further continue feeding its expansion of control, power and income from the masses. On the other hand, I do feel there needs to be someone voicing the concerns for an ever shrinking group like ours.
It kind of reminds me of a Union whose upper level managers have gotten wealthy on the backs of the members who continue to fork over dues while getting less and less benefits from being a Union member.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Welcome to VAF!!!!
Anthony, welcome to VAF
It is good to have you aboard, enjoy the ride.
Speaking of rides, have you ever gotten a ride in an RV??? Be careful, it may cost you $100k
So, when are you going to start building an RV???
Anthony, welcome to VAF
It is good to have you aboard, enjoy the ride.
Speaking of rides, have you ever gotten a ride in an RV??? Be careful, it may cost you $100k
So, when are you going to start building an RV???
Let's hope the AOPA and POA forums don't pick up on that accident. When those forums find out about accidents like this, they just hold them up as examples of what happens when "hot shots" are "fooling around."
Anthony, welcome to VAF
It is good to have you aboard, enjoy the ride.
Speaking of rides, have you ever gotten a ride in an RV??? Be careful, it may cost you $100k
So, when are you going to start building an RV???
Hi Mike. Thanks for the welcome! Ride. not yet. Is there a section where I an find out who is nearby to get a ride? I am based at N47 with my Tiger.
I really don't have too much time to build right now, maybe something substantially completed or an outright acqusition of one already built is in my future though.
Thanks again for the welcome.
RVbySDI
Well Known Member
I am afraid you are missing out on the fact that the very nature of the AOPA thread in question originated because of the aforementioned accident.
Andrew Sego
Active Member
Dr. Chien is really a pleasant and erudite man in person. He's helped untold pilots keep their medical certs, many of whom had lost all hope of continuing to fly. Like many pilots (even maybe one or two who post on this forum!) he's very opinionated... and like most people probably comes across as even more so online than in person. The net result of that thread, though, is that he's more anti-experimental/RV than he was before... and we have no one but ourselves to blame for that. Maybe he got combative first, but we as a community did not rise to the challenge of getting him to reconsider his position. If anything we calcified it.
After reading all the threads I think it's safe to say that going on the "offensive" doesn't do our group many favors in the eyes of most other pilots. Experimental aviation has a real safety and image problem and we're better off saying "yes, and we do everything we can to self-police, fly safe and improve our safety record" than getting angry and taking a swing back.
We cannot win hearts and minds by being ugly back to people, even if they started it. Bystanders who don't have any skin in the game read these forum threads and see two pigs wrestling in the mud. We aren't going to change the mind of people who already have their minds made up. We might just positively influence someone else who's reading that thread, though. "In this world, you must be oh so smart, or oh so pleasant."
Some people are going to be ugly - they're going to say things that are hurtful and/or untrue. The truth is we're going to have to let a lot of little insults slide and lose a lot of forum "battles" in order to win the war of public opinion. And yes, we need to win it. If other GA pilots think we're a hazard who but ourselves will advocate for us?
After reading all the threads I think it's safe to say that going on the "offensive" doesn't do our group many favors in the eyes of most other pilots. Experimental aviation has a real safety and image problem and we're better off saying "yes, and we do everything we can to self-police, fly safe and improve our safety record" than getting angry and taking a swing back.
We cannot win hearts and minds by being ugly back to people, even if they started it. Bystanders who don't have any skin in the game read these forum threads and see two pigs wrestling in the mud. We aren't going to change the mind of people who already have their minds made up. We might just positively influence someone else who's reading that thread, though. "In this world, you must be oh so smart, or oh so pleasant."
Some people are going to be ugly - they're going to say things that are hurtful and/or untrue. The truth is we're going to have to let a lot of little insults slide and lose a lot of forum "battles" in order to win the war of public opinion. And yes, we need to win it. If other GA pilots think we're a hazard who but ourselves will advocate for us?
RV10Rob
Well Known Member
Wow... very well said.
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
As an American, those things invoke positive feelings. Might look out of place on one of them furrin 2 seater cars (car term used loosely).
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
After his initial tirade regarding RV'ers and unprofessionalism..........I directly linked a you-tube video of Team RV. He thought that looked professional...........but immediately jumped right back to the same tirade as before...............lumping all RV'ers in to the same class and thought pattern. At that point, he lost me. I was fair to begin with, but became anti-Dr. Chein as the hours worn on. As a moderator, he did nothing to squelch the anti-RV sentiment that followed. He only encouraged it.
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Have you seen where this has gone today?
RV'ers are now being percieved as the "crotch rocket" motorcycle crowd. Harley owners fly Bonanzas.
We're pilots who can't afford a real aircraft, so instead...... we "quickly" build an RV. Just when I was designing my scarf & leather "skull" jacket..........I'll now have to change to those brightly colored rocket-cycle outfits....L.Adamson
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N8RV
Well Known Member
Probably so, and well said, Andrew. And it doesn't take much effort to peruse this site and see that the vast majority of active posters agree that the homebuilding community's accident rate is higher than it should be (whatever that rate might be).
However, the issue that many have commented on regarding Dr. Chien's (and others') posts on the AOPA forum is NOT his contention that reckless and inconsiderate flying by RV pilots is endangering ourselves, others and our very privilege of flying, but HOW he has been delivering that message.
You may well be right that he's a"pleasant and erudite person," but that is not what is reflected in his posts. He and a handful of others seem to have some difficulty in expressing their views without invective, animus and rancor. It's one thing to be passionate about something, but another to be unable or unwilling to express that passion constructively.
I participate in an online professional community called DentalTown. Yeah, just a bunch of nerdy dentists comparing notes on everything from root canals to tough extractions to full-mouth rehabilitations. Over the years, a bunch of experts have popped up -- serious experts, renowned in their fields -- who have shown themselves to be haughty and condescending to their peers through their posts. They could share their knowledge and expertise and help the profession, but instead usually end up leaving DentalTown because the rest of us are "just too stupid" to appreciate their view from the ivory towers or get so frustrated that they are eventually banned because they think that they shouldn't have to play nice with others because of their credentials. Some of them are delightful in person, but their online behavior is deplorable and should not be so lightly excused.
There are a lot of intelligent, lettered professionals on VAF and I don't see them posting with such incivility when they make their comments. Most of the edgy and sarcastic comments posted on the AOPA and PoA forums would not be allowed here on VAF. Why is it that we can apparently communicate with each other effectively (despite regular spelling and syntax errors
) and not resort to name calling and sarcasm? In spite of the argumentative and arrogant attitudes displayed on those other forums, I am glad that I have read the threads. They further challenge us all to raise our own personal accountability for the good of the GA community at large.
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[email protected]
Well Known Member
Don't read too much into 'emotions' in forum posts...
With all of the expressed 'emotion' I read the referenced AOPA forum posts and they all seemed generally okay to me... after all, they are only forum posts not carefully considered and crafted letters to the editor... just spontaneous thoughts dumped to the screen and rarely communicate intended emotion effectively...
With all of the expressed 'emotion' I read the referenced AOPA forum posts and they all seemed generally okay to me... after all, they are only forum posts not carefully considered and crafted letters to the editor... just spontaneous thoughts dumped to the screen and rarely communicate intended emotion effectively...
mv031161
Well Known Member
Well here I go....I am going to make this a personall issue....
I used to fly a Pitts S2B and now I fly a Giles 202. All my aerobatic flying is done in a waivered airspace and everytime a NOTAM is issued. I own the waiver and open and close as needed with at least 24 hours of notice time No NOTAM no aerobatic flying. My waivered airspace is between 500 agl and 35oo agl on the N/NW side of KLKR and always with a ground safety spotter looking for un annouced trafic airspace inscursions and two handheld radio with both discreet and unicom frequencies for immediate communciation. I also fly with Xaon fro traffic allert!
Does it matter if I am flying within the regulations and my rights? Does it matter if I have in place safety factors to protect ME first and others second? No! I am still considered a menace to the aviation society and a reckless flyer in accordance to many including some members from this forum...I have heard it all....I even have had pictures I posted here removed after some started questioning my inverted altitude inside my waivered airspace....
all I want to say is: Live and let live....be respectful of others and follow common courtesy. COMMUNICATE. We are a dissapearing bunch of guys. we all have comments...if you have a problem with someone at your airport....go say hello, become friends and talk about it.....its a lot pleasent!
is my post wrong or out of place for this tread....SORRY!
I used to fly a Pitts S2B and now I fly a Giles 202. All my aerobatic flying is done in a waivered airspace and everytime a NOTAM is issued. I own the waiver and open and close as needed with at least 24 hours of notice time No NOTAM no aerobatic flying. My waivered airspace is between 500 agl and 35oo agl on the N/NW side of KLKR and always with a ground safety spotter looking for un annouced trafic airspace inscursions and two handheld radio with both discreet and unicom frequencies for immediate communciation. I also fly with Xaon fro traffic allert!
Does it matter if I am flying within the regulations and my rights? Does it matter if I have in place safety factors to protect ME first and others second? No! I am still considered a menace to the aviation society and a reckless flyer in accordance to many including some members from this forum...I have heard it all....I even have had pictures I posted here removed after some started questioning my inverted altitude inside my waivered airspace....
all I want to say is: Live and let live....be respectful of others and follow common courtesy. COMMUNICATE. We are a dissapearing bunch of guys. we all have comments...if you have a problem with someone at your airport....go say hello, become friends and talk about it.....its a lot pleasent!
is my post wrong or out of place for this tread....SORRY!
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I read all this with utter disbelief that one mans opinion is listened to in the first place. The other disbelief I have is that the airplane is at fault not the person. This needs to be put in the right perspective, in the garbage can to be exact, and just move on. Nobody in their right mind even the FAA will starting banning the use of an aircraft over ONE person and his folly to do what he or she wants. Yes it got people energized. But, this needs to end.
Jamie
Well Known Member
Well said. And what's the deal with the Internet anyway? It seems to have the same effect as alcohol. People get much bolder and "wiser", the egos get larger and the stories get taller and it can result in threats of violence.
Sometimes I long for the good old days when only us geeks had computers.
mv031161
Well Known Member
Well said. And what's the deal with the Internet anyway? It seems to have the same effect as alcohol. People get much bolder and "wiser", the egos get larger and the stories get taller and it can result in threats of violence.
Sometimes I long for the good old days when only us geeks had computers.
its a lot easier to hide behind an electronic signature, specially when they are fake names....
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