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RV-3 Flight Number Two?.There is a Reason We Prepare!

Are you going to leave the fuel selector alone Paul? I would be thinking of putting some sort of key on the shaft of the fuel tank selector, to prevent another John Denver moment. At least if screws came loose again, you can select a tank.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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Neal@F14 said:
If the new version of the red fancy handle that's available from Van's is the same item as from Spruce (about $40), then it's now got a D-shaped hole in it instead of a setscrew in the end.

05-03047.gif
Click to expand...

The problem is that there are two different versions of the valve that Van has used.

That handle one works if the "flat" on the shaft is in the direction of the tank that is selected. The newer valve that I have in the -3 (a newer valve) would need to have the flat on the "tail" end of the arrow. What they need is a handle just like this one with the flat on the other side - then you buy the one appropriate to your valve; end of problem. I'd buy one in a heartbeat!
 
I've always felt comfortable with my C-170 fuel valve setup: square shaft through a square hole in the handle with a hole drilled through both at an angle so it can only be assembled one way. Probably could use a roll pin instead of a cotter pin, but mine's been working well as is for the last 1700 hours. Pretty fool proo... er... resistant, IMHO.

This particular valve wouldn't be usable on an RV due to the BOTH position, not to mention a price (nothing to do with value:mad:) that would likely net you several Andair valves, but the idea of a non-round shaft and angled pin is sound.

Note: This picture is pre-interior refurb (now in progress).:eek:
2il0unb.jpg
 
I too had bought the red handle you used but was uncomfortable with its design and chose not to use it. I didn't know that there was a new version.
Must check out which fuel valve I have.

Again, very glad you and Junior are ok.
 
Keeping track

A buddy of mine had a similar thing happen in his plane a few years ago (it wasn't a fuel selector valve, but a builder "error" just the same). He is now building a new plane and keeps a clear list in his shop of everything he's started, but that he wants to revisit later because he didn't finish it up 100%. Most of the stuff on his list is screw related. I remember thinking "that's overkill," but after hearing Paul's story I can see how even just a few items on a list could make a difference. Maybe not such a bad idea.
 
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Good job

Glad everything worked out. A place to go is always a great idea on those early Phase I flights while things are being tested.

Many comment on the Van's valve being a problem, yet I've never heard of any issues. Maybe some out there, but haven't heard. Thousands of them in use!!

For another point of added security, Aveo has a valve similar to the Andair, that is lighted. Very nice. Got one installed in the new 7.

Again, good job!!!!
 
Hey Miles,
That square hole shaft is hooked to a pair of 60 year old universal joints with smashed hollow-end rivets for pivots. The 182's have an AD about freeplay on this. Does that make you feel warm & fuzzy?
 
Your Next Column

Paul-

#1 - Very glad you had a safe landing and outcome to this problem.

#2 - Interesting thread looking at the safety issues of test flying.

#3 - Seems like a great idea for your next column in Kit Planes. A report on the pre-flight planning, followed up by the results of your flight. A great example for all of us yet to get these birds airborne.

Job Well Done!
 
not the valve, the handle

RV7Guy said:
Many comment on the Van's valve being a problem, yet I've never heard of any issues. Maybe some out there, but haven't heard. Thousands of them in use!
Click to expand...

Its not the valve and the supplied handle that's the problem. It's the fancy
aftermarket red handle with the set screw that caused the problem.

The supplied fuel valve from Van's works great.
 
I'm not flying yet but I went with the same valve and handle that Paul has. What I noticed is the red handle has a set screw hole drilled in both ends, although it only comes with one set screw. I elected to put a another set screw in the other side.
 
I think there may be a lesson here that hasnt been explicity stated yet:

In the event of a sudden engine stoppage, the cause may be related to the last input to the engine controls!

erich
 
Wow ? the G3X Does Cool Stuff!

One of the cool things about EFIS-equipped airplanes is the data logging capability ? and the G3X makes it super simple. If you have an SD card in the unit ? it records! The data is a one-sample-per-second recording of all the EFIS and EIS parameters ? great for evaluation post-flight, and it drops right in to an Excel spreadsheet. Garmin also has a simple utility that converts it to Google Earth, so here is the ?Second Flight? in visual form:

Overview of the flight ? we came out of Pearland Regional and headed for our flight test area. We were flying long ovals to break in the engine. After two laps, we had the fuel problem.
Engine%252520Out%2525201.jpg



Zooming in, this view is just above the point where things got quiet.
Engine%252520Out%2525202.jpg



As I crossed over the highway where it crossed ?my? dirt road, I committed to the landing spot, and set up the engine-out pattern.
Engine%252520Out%2525203.jpg


I used a slight overshoot on final to kill off excess altitude. After coming to a stop, I wondered why I didn?t let it cost a little further so the walk to the highway would be shorter! ;)
Engine%252520Out%2525204.jpg


Junior spent the night tucked off the side of the road just behind where we stopped. Is this Google earth stuff cool or what? 
 
Man that is cool!

I don't know what I would dread the most... having to land engine-out on a gravel road or leaving the baby out there all alone overnight! :eek: Glad you're both OK.
 
aerhed said:
Hey Miles,
That square hole shaft is hooked to a pair of 60 year old universal joints with smashed hollow-end rivets for pivots. The 182's have an AD about freeplay on this. Does that make you feel warm & fuzzy?
Click to expand...

A little off topic since we're talking about keeping the handle connected to the shaft, but I don't recall there being an AD on the 170 fuel valve system. IIRC, there's only one u-joint down there, and I honestly don't recall what it's pivots are. Regardless, I'll get in there with a flashlight and mirror and check it out before further flight. Cessna did several things better in their earlier airplanes than later on; I guess we'll find out whether this was one of them.:rolleyes:

Thanks,
 
longranger said:
A little off topic since we're talking about keeping the handle connected to the shaft, but I don't recall there being an AD on the 170 fuel valve system. IIRC, there's only one u-joint down there, and I honestly don't recall what it's pivots are. Regardless, I'll get in there with a flashlight and mirror and check it out before further flight. Cessna did several things better in their earlier airplanes than later on; I guess we'll find out whether this was one of them.:rolleyes:

Thanks,
Click to expand...

There is an AD...I worked on one for a friend that has a 170.
 
8CW said:
I'm not flying yet but I went with the same valve and handle that Paul has. What I noticed is the red handle has a set screw hole drilled in both ends, although it only comes with one set screw. I elected to put a another set screw in the other side.
Click to expand...

By doing that you may be removing much of the friction gained by having a set screw only on one side (or 90 degrees offset).
 
Paul, you were very wise waiting to paint Junior until you get all your gravel road takeoffs out of the way. :D
 
Off airport

Does an off airport landing like this require a notification to anybody? FSDO?
DAR? Either during Phase 1 or after?
 
Ironflight said:
IMG_0257.JPG
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Paul, I also want to say..... outstanding job!! We all expected no less....:D

Now, my take on Van's valve. First, if you have one and question it's ability to perform as required, before you run off to spend an unneeded amount of cash for an upgraded valve, take the brass valve apart and see how it works.
For what the valve is asked to do, it doesn't get any simpler than this valve. But this valve does have one problem....... The spring that keeps the cone seated is too long and too strong. A weaker spring from ACE cut so you can lift the select handle about 1/8 inch will make the valve work like silk.

Second. When someone at Van's decided that it would make more sense to have the handle instead of the pointer point to the selected valve created the problem that you ended up with. Not only did you have to cross plumb to install the valve with the handle pointing to the tank, the after market people had to allow for the variation.

I installed my valve with the pointer (painted red) pointing to L or R. It works fine and I don't have to reach over the valve for leverage to change it. But another RV pilot might get confused.....:eek:

In the picture above, I see you have the valve plumbed so the stock pointer will point to the tank. One way you could have a safe selector handle is to use the stock one and alter it's looks and shape with some rectorseal EP200 epoxy putty. Mold it and shape it the way you want then paint it. The stock handle is safe. Even without the screw, it is a press fit onto the D shaft.

I also purchased the red handle and did not install because of the set screw. I would at least double set screw it. 2 set screws 7/16" long. Set the first one and then grind the second one down till when installed, it ends up just flush to the surface of the handle.
 
For smooth, trouble free operation, I like the Andair valve.

I had a 6 port job in the 7A for getting by-pass fuel back to its tank and it worked great.
 
Fascinating reading and a great example of how to approach flight testing a new aircraft and safely handling an emergency. Paul, it would be very helpful to learn more about how your experienced team went about the overall planning and risk management process.

I know that there is flight testing information available on VAF and elsewhere, and that yours will be specific to your aircraft and situation, but maybe (one day) you could post an outline version of the risk assessment, contingency plans, briefing notes and checklists etc. that your team developed? Like many others, I have a project in the shop that will be an aircraft in the forseeable future, but don't have any specific experience in this area.
 
Like everyone else, my first thought was utter relief that Ironflight himself was making the post. Whew ... the biggest worry out of the way.
Thought #2: I learn more from many of Pauls' posts than from most CFIs I've flown with, regardless of hours or pedigree. There are days I feel like I should be sending him a monthly check. :)
Thought #3: Feeling good about paying the big bucks for my Andair valve.
Thought #4: Gulp. My first flight is coming up a couple of months, and this confirms my fears about "the million little things that could go wrong".
Thought #5: None. Completely preoccupied with thought #4.
 
Yep, I'm very proud

rvmills said:
Louise, in the debrief you have that look of a fully-engaged co-test-pilot, but I also see the same look of concern my wife would be giving me if I had just had an off-airport landing...I'm sure you are relieved...and proud of your guy!
Click to expand...

I didn't get a chance to finish my response to Bob this morning. Yep, I couldn't be more proud of Paul. Not so much for his stick-and-rudder skills as for his approach to the Phase 1. I'd like to think that all VAF spouses can be as confident in their partner's preparation and realistic decisionmaking approach as I can realistically be. Yes, I'm extremely proud of him! :) (I'm also extremely grateful that I didn't do the second flight. While I hope the result would have been the same, the odds certainly favored Paul and his experience.)
 
Louise,

Louise Hose said:
(I'm also extremely grateful that I didn't do the second flight. While I hope the result would have been the same, the odds certainly favored Paul and his experience.)
Click to expand...

Knowing you and Paul as I do, there is no doubt in my mind that the results would have been very similar if not identical had you been PIC!
 
Mel said:
Knowing you and Paul as I do, there is no doubt in my mind that the results would have been very similar if not identical had you been PIC!
Click to expand...

Not too sure of that Mel. Paul's engineer brain just simply HAD to figure out the cause of the issue, Louise would probably have been looking out for some new and interesting rocks after she landed.;)
 
rgmwa said:
Fascinating reading and a great example of how to approach flight testing a new aircraft and safely handling an emergency. Paul, it would be very helpful to learn more about how your experienced team went about the overall planning and risk management process.

I know that there is flight testing information available on VAF and elsewhere, and that yours will be specific to your aircraft and situation, but maybe (one day) you could post an outline version of the risk assessment, contingency plans, briefing notes and checklists etc. that your team developed?.....
Click to expand...

Definitely do this - please!

And make it a sticky, too.

Thanks!
Dave
 
Self-Locking Set Screws

I just Googled "self-locking set screws" and got about 7,750 hits. Here's the first non-ad one (and of course I don't know the company, just reporting the first hit):

http://threaded-rods.com/set-screws/screw-style/self-locking-set-screws.htm

With these, you know it's locked. Especially if you also Loctite it to add some redundancy.

Regarding roll pins, my C180 uses that for the same purpose as original equipment. Anyway, although I never did it, it looked like you could probably run some safety wire through it if you wanted some suspenders to go with your belt.

For background, a long time ago I was a helicopter mech in USAF, and in the early '70s, some Sikorsky helicopters were starting to use some interesting hardware for control systems: the screw would have a C-snap-ring near the threaded end. Push the screw in and the ring would hold it securely. It fit into a recess in the control arms when correctly engaged. Then we'd use a castellated shear nut that had a nylon locking element, a lovely feature that they all ought to have. All by itself the nut was safe. And of course we'd install a cotter pin too.

While that combination was both pretty cool and nearly foolproof, USAF had one additional thing - every operation needed an inspector's sign-off.

I still admire that control fastener system; negligible extra weight, negligible extra work, and a lot of added safety.

Dave
 
I know it is really none of my business, but Louise, you have had a frantic few days, and immediately after have to rush off interstate, by yourself presumably.
I just hope someone takes the time to sit down with you and quietly do a debrief of you, your reactions and your emotions.
I realise I don't know you, but even the strongest personality can react to such a set of circumstances.
I am not usually so "touchy feely" and you may be fine, but someone you trust should take you aside and give you room to discuss your thoughts and reaction.
Probably already happened.
Kind Regards
John
Melbourne
Australia
 
First off...thank you for recounting your experience, preparations and outcome. I can only imagine the adrenaline flow, even though the preparations were fantastic. Rehearsals are one thing, but sometimes it's a very different thing to "bring it" when it counts. Congratulations both to you and to the people who had jobs to do but didn't have direct control. That's also really difficult.

The second aspect is that I had no idea that on the Van's fuel selector, the area between "left" and "right" is OFF, though I know it is that way on some certified planes as well.

I checked my Andair repeatedly before I installed it and confirmed that the area between "Left" and "Right" is funtionally "Both". This would seem to be a big difference that I wasn't aware of before and I consider it another advantage to the Andair.

Again, thank you for the ongoing education. And, considering this a slightly rocky start, pulling it off like a boxing champ, the flying squirrel angle and the whole geologist thing, I think "Rocky" is starting to look even better as Junior's new name:D

All Best

Jeremy
 
It is very kind of you to be concerned about me. I was very fortunate to have Steve in the plane with me, both providing the calm environment as well as sensitivity to ensure I was okay to continue our flights. (Steve was very capable of taking over the flight if I couldn't have continued.) Then, he and Jill provided a lasagna and wine....several bottles of wine....dinner-debrief that night. Covered the bases, as good friends do.

In preparation for the first flight, I mentally worked through the worse case scenario and visualized my role as PIC of the chase plane. I've been through worse case scenarios with colleagues in other aspects of my life and made sure I was ready to deal with whatever came along during Paul's flight. This incident will provide fodder for great stories for us, but wasn't enough to shake me. However, your concern is appreciated and the point that this sort of event can greatly impact one's family should not be dismissed.
 
Dan,

All in all, nice work getting down safely.

Be careful if you plan to drill through the shaft and install a longer grub screw. The retaining screw thread may intersect with the cross drilling and leave less than sufficient metal for the shaft.

My own selector has the same knob fitted, mine came with the grubby already loctite(ed) firmly in place.

I solved the direction issue by crossing the tank pipe connections to the valve assembly. The left tank entered the valve from the right side, and vice versa. This also gave me more room for the pipe bend.

When I change tanks I get a clear and distinct click at each detent, so much that I can feel it through the handle.

Very good lesson for us all. Thank you for being so candid with the detail. By the way I have already put the Allan keys into the flight bag so I will check this before my next flight.

Doug Gray
 
Rupester said:
Like everyone else, my first thought was utter relief that Ironflight himself was making the post. Whew ... the biggest worry out of the way.
Thought #2: I learn more from many of Pauls' posts than from most CFIs I've flown with, regardless of hours or pedigree. There are days I feel like I should be sending him a monthly check. :)
Thought #3: Feeling good about paying the big bucks for my Andair valve.
Thought #4: Gulp. My first flight is coming up a couple of months, and this confirms my fears about "the million little things that could go wrong".
Thought #5: None. Completely preoccupied with thought #4.
Click to expand...

Terry, don't worry too much. Look at all the boring successful first flights here. I would advise remaining within gliding distance of an airport during your first few flights, however.
 
Ironflight said:
Now that is the best solution I have seen yet for this particular handle - drill the shaft all the way through and put a long set screw in there. I have a spare fuel valve, and might just experiment with this.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I like this fix. If the shaft were properly keyed to the handle with a flat or a spline, then the screw would simply be there to prevent removal of the handle. However, in this particular case, the screw would be in shear every time somebody twisted the handle. It seems to me that such a small screw would be particulary prone to failure across its threads. I would have the same concern about that skinny shaft failing at the hole from the same forces. On my old fashioned Van's valve, the shaft and hole appear to have a slight taper so that the attachement screw pulls things tightly together, spreading the load around the whole surface.
 
szicree said:
I'm not sure I like this fix. If the shaft were properly keyed to the handle with a flat or a spline, then the screw would simply be there to prevent removal of the handle. However, in this particular case, the screw would be in shear every time somebody twisted the handle. It seems to me that such a small screw would be particularly prone to failure across its threads. I would have the same concern about that skinny shaft failing at the hole from the same forces. On my old fashioned Van's valve, the shaft and hole appear to have a slight taper so that the attachment screw pulls things tightly together, spreading the load around the whole surface.
Click to expand...

True Steve - I spent some time in the hangar tonight playing around with a spare valve and a couple of handles, and I don't think I'll drill the shaft. As I said in my earlier post, we have flown this handle in Louise's -6 for four years now, and haven't had a problem - and yes, we check it like everything else at Annual. The good news, after playing with the one in Junior for awhile, is that if you flatten out the tapered "business" end of the set screw, it screws in a touch farther and really provides a nice flat. Although Loctite is far from ideal in any application, I think that the red is not going to suddenly break loose and allow the screw to lose grip in a short time. You can easily tell when it is loosening up - the handle develops some play. I may try making my own handle out of one of the original Van's handle, one that fits the space better, but has the machined in "D" shape. In the meantime, it is easy to check for a tight fit each pre-flight, and I doubt I'll forget it while I search for another solution.

This was primarily an installation error of a design which is not forgiving of installation errors. Preferably, a design can withstand installation errors, but if it doesn't we need to be extra careful to get it right.

Paul
 
It's been a while so I don't remember the reason, but on mine the orientation of the lever was bass-ackwards from what I wanted. I filed an extra flat on the opposite side of the shaft and filled the old flat with JB Weld or some such goop. The glue was there to help prevent the lever from being installed the wrong way, but served no structural purpose. The whole operation took less than an hour and worked fine ever since. This might be a way to use the version with the d-shaped hole on existing valves.
 
Use epoxy

Ironflight said:
The good news, after playing with the one in Junior for awhile, is that if you flatten out the tapered "business" end of the set screw, it screws in a touch farther and really provides a nice flat.
Click to expand...

Alternative suggestion:

Mix up some epoxy and cotton flox into a mixture thick enough to stay where it's put. Coat the shaft in mold release, fill the hole in the handle with the epoxy mixture with a syringe, position it into the orientation you want it, and press it over the shaft. Coat the retaining screw in mold release too and do it all up.

Might be a good idea to cover up everything you don't want glued with saran wrap too, so it doesn't get contaminated by whatever squeezes out of the hole.

Once it has set, you should be able to unscrew the retaining screw and remove the handle. The result will be a "key" made out of glue, and you'll never need a set-screw again, and the handle will still be removable on those rare occasions when you need to take it off.

If you don't use enough mold release, then I guess the handle isn't going anywhere ever again. At least it'll be safe :)

- mark
 
Louise Hose said:
I didn't get a chance to finish my response to Bob this morning. Yep, I couldn't be more proud of Paul. Not so much for his stick-and-rudder skills as for his approach to the Phase 1. I'd like to think that all VAF spouses can be as confident in their partner's preparation and realistic decisionmaking approach as I can realistically be. Yes, I'm extremely proud of him! :) (I'm also extremely grateful that I didn't do the second flight. While I hope the result would have been the same, the odds certainly favored Paul and his experience.)
Click to expand...

Thanks Louise, hope your "mailing tube" flight ;) was enjoyable...even though I'm sure you'd rather be back at home (flight test central)!

I have confidence that you would have handled the situation well, and given the shared experience (via being there, watching it play out and debriefing afterwards), you will now be even more well prepared when it's your turn to fly Junior.

Thanks to both of you for sharing...this type of hangar flying benefits many!

Feeling for the clicks when I change tanks has become a bit of a "gotta have it" thing for me since my issue with the selector. Now I'll probably think of Junior and you guys every time I switch tanks and feel for "the Junior click". ;)

Guess what will be getting checked even more closely at the upcoming condition inspection! Will be watching to see if you guys find a way to improve this handle's security, and will look for solutions as I check mine out too.

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Let?s see, you almost wiped out a $60K + aircraft, not to mention your life, for want of a $250 Andair fuel valve?

$250 divided by $60,000 times 100 equals 0.4% of the entire project. (And I?m guessing that with Garmins, new engine, prop, etc., you may have more than $60K in Junior.)

Tossing that junk boiler valve that comes with the kit and buying an Andair valve is something I strongly recommend every builder I talk to. Installing the Andair during the build is MUCH easier than replacing it later.
 
N941WR said:
Let?s see, you almost wiped out a $60K + aircraft, not to mention your life, for want of a $250 Andair fuel valve?

$250 divided by $60,000 times 100 equals 0.4% of the entire project. (And I?m guessing that with Garmins, new engine, prop, etc., you may have more than $60K in Junior.)

Tossing that junk boiler valve that comes with the kit and buying an Andair valve is something I strongly recommend every builder I talk to. Installing the Andair during the build is MUCH easier than replacing it later.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you Bill. Paul, fit the Andair fuel valve to Junior before Louise makes her first flight in Junior.
 
N941WR said:
Let?s see, you almost wiped out a $60K + aircraft, not to mention your life, for want of a $250 Andair fuel valve?

$250 divided by $60,000 times 100 equals 0.4% of the entire project. (And I?m guessing that with Garmins, new engine, prop, etc., you may have more than $60K in Junior.)

Tossing that junk boiler valve that comes with the kit and buying an Andair valve is something I strongly recommend every builder I talk to. Installing the Andair during the build is MUCH easier than replacing it later.
Click to expand...

OK, I undertand the sentiment Bill. However.....there are many thousands of airplanes flying with the "Tractor valve", and they are doing just fine. In fact, the issue here is not the valve at all - it an AFTERMARKET handle on the valve. Folks need to stay focused in an argument, or the argument simply becomes noise. Noise just prevents people from hearing the important stuff.

The design of this HANDLE is such that it can be incorrectly installed, and a proper installation is hard (not impossible) to inspect. That's the problem. The company that makes it CAUTIONS the builder about the problem. It would be nice if it was goof proof. I am sure that we can find someone to stand up and admit to a goof-up with an Andair valve as well. And Andair has had their own design issues with other products.

Make sure that your fuel valve handle - whicever one you buy or build - is splined to the shaft so that it can't turn relative to the shaft, and you're golden - for this particuar scenario.

And....make sure that you are READY and PREPARED for any single failure that can occur, because failures WILL occur. I wear a parachute during envelope expansion in case a wing comes off. This little landing? We were far from wiping out the airplane, because we planned for contingencies. That is the point of the thread.

I do plan (for those that asked) to share our test plan and the process that I personally go through to prepare for a Phase one - just ned to find some quiet time to put together the package. It's not the only way - but it's one way.

Paul

Paul
 
islandmonkey said:
I have to agree with you Bill. Paul, fit the Andair fuel valve to Junior before Louise makes her first flight in Junior.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but Louise flies with this set-up in the -6 about three times each week and has great confidence in the set-up....when installed according to the instructions. I appreciate a manufacturer who is upfront about the equipment's shortcomings and how to ensure safety once they know of a problem. I'm good, but thanks.
 
i'm listening...

Turn Boost pump off when high enough to glide back...CHECK

Switch fuel tanks when overhead a acceptable landing site...CHECK

Don't complain about how loud the engine is even with my Bose headsets on....DOUBLE CHECK! :D
 
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