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RV-3 Daydream: Matched-Hole Kit

Isn't there room for more than one viewpoint? Aren't things allowed to evolve? That's what I see the matched hole -3 as, an evolution of a kit from Van's. I also see the -12 and -14s more integrated production "system" as an evolution as well. Can the -3 evolve, or is it doomed to stand still and potentially perish?
I do not think the -3 can "evolve" by just making it punched hole / CNC - especially if it is to be a "modern RV" in terms of avionics / engine / prop.

The recent "high quality" RV-3B builds came in at high-ish weight, and not aerobatic in normal Vans limits. It was designed as a day VFR minimalist aircraft, 125HP, FP wooden prop.

Personally I do not think the market is there either.

If people really do fear the RV-3 current kit, but are willing to put their money where their mouth is, club together and get someone (they are out there) to build current RV-3B kits to QB level. This solves all the matched hole issues...
 
Isn't there room for more than one viewpoint? Aren't things allowed to evolve? That's what I see the matched hole -3 as, an evolution of a kit from Van's. I also see the -12 and -14s more integrated production "system" as an evolution as well. Can the -3 evolve, or is it doomed to stand still and potentially perish?

TODR

The only viewpoint that matters would be that of Van's Aircraft.

Making a new-generation RV-3 with matched-hole construction is basically designing an all-new airplane, since someone's having to translate every part into a CAD program, drop rivets, tweak the bends, etc. To improve sales, the airframe itself will probably need an update (as Andy alluded to above) to accomodate the larger engines and systems people like to fit these days, and I'd expect updates in the cockpit area for some kind of rollover protection and maybe a different canopy. But a lot of your effort will still be expended even for a relatively straightforward conversion to matched-hole.

Let's WAG some numbers.

Ballpark 3 man-years of engineering at a burdened rate (covering overhead, benefits, etc. and not just wages) of $100k each. Then, another 2 man-years of fabrication and assembly at the same burden rate for the prototype, as well as $30k for engine, material, and instruments. Figure another $25k for new tooling. Finally, we have to conduct a flight-test program (say 2 man-years at burdened rate, 200 hours flying plus other consumables for another $10k), and 6 man-months to incorporate design changes and modifications.

That's 7.5 man-years ($750,000) plus $40,000 or more in materials, parts, and fuel, and $25,000 in tooling--$815,000 to develop a new airplane. And that's before the first kit is offered.

Now, let's make another WAG or two about cost and price. Let's assume that 70% of the cost of a kit is materials and the shop labor to fabricate the parts. Let us also assume a new matched-hole RV-3 kit will cost about $18,000 (a little less than an 8). Even if all of the remaining 30% ($5,400) is available to help cover the development cost, you're talking about having to sell 151 aircraft just to break even, and that's before we factor in inflation.

Realistically, I'd expect that Van's would want high confidence they could sell at least 400 complete (start-to-finish) kits for a given design within a 6-8 year period before they'd go anywhere past the napkin-sketch stage on a new airplane. That 400 complete kits probably translates into something like 800-1000 tail kit purchases in three to four years. And for each one of those, they'd probably need at least for or five people saying "yeah, I'm willing to sign right now".

Frankly, I don't think there's enough of a market. I doubt a new matched-hole RV-3 would see more than 300 completions over the next decade or two, especially at the prices such a kit (and final airplane) would command.

In short, from a financial perspective, a matched-hole RV-3 overhaul is a risky prospect with a low chance of ever earning a profit. Van's would be better off investing that money into another project with a higher likelihood of success and better returns.
 
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I don't know how many RV-3Bs would be ordered that way, Van's has said that they'd need something around 250, I think, but there's been at least 80 Sonex Onex's ordered (according to http://www.onexmike.org/), and that's a roughly similar plane to the pre-punched RV-3 kit that some people are asking for.

Some may say a better plane too, with similar performance, folding wings, a smaller engine and a tricycle gear option.

And something to consider is that every one of those represents a potential loss to the anticipated customer base for a revised RV-3B.

My opinion - if you want an RV that's fun to build, consider the RV-3B as it is right now. If you really want a pre-punched kit, consider the Sonex Onex.

Dave
RV-3B, now on leading edges of wings and happy with the RV-3B kit as-is.
 
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Should be well over 200 for the Onex by now. Order one today and I think you're looking at 6 months for a ship date and delivery of the kit. Van's sat around too long on this one, the door is closed. :(
 
I'm not too sure I would ever put a:
  1. 80HP
  2. 700-900fpm
  3. 135mph cruise (117K!)
in any comparison with an RV-3 :eek:
 
No... they are different aircraft for sure, but for a single place the Onex will do the job and you can put one together in a couple of months. :)
 
No... they are different aircraft for sure, but for a single place the Onex will do the job and you can put one together in a couple of months. :)

That depends on how you define "the job".....

Flew our -3 from Minneapolis to reno in one day last week, IFR departure and two fuel stops, burning 6.2 gph and truing 165 knots. Everyone has a different mission - choose the airplane wisely!
 
That depends on how you define "the job".....

Flew our -3 from Minneapolis to reno in one day last week, IFR departure and two fuel stops, burning 6.2 gph and truing 165 knots. Everyone has a different mission - choose the airplane wisely!

Yes, you have a "different" mission than most 3 drivers I know. :)
 
pre punch 3 ?

That depends on how you define "the job".....

Flew our -3 from Minneapolis to reno in one day last week, IFR departure and two fuel stops, burning 6.2 gph and truing 165 knots. Everyone has a different mission - choose the airplane wisely!

Hi Paul, Is TSAM ever going to see the inside of the Hanger again? Between Louise and you it seems like TSAM is a couple miles above us all the time:D
Great stuff
 
Hi Paul, Is TSAM ever going to see the inside of the Hanger again? Between Louise and you it seems like TSAM is a couple miles above us all the time:D
Great stuff

Airplanes are for flying - and Ikrans as well!

Tsam takes me to Van Nuys and Rosamond tomorrow - need to see the western side of the Sierra, then drop in on Rosie's movie night. :D

Paul
 
Hi Paul, Is TSAM ever going to see the inside of the Hanger again? Between Louise and you it seems like TSAM is a couple miles above us all the time:D
Great stuff

More then likely Tsam will see the inside of Rosie's hangar Saturday night 17 August 2013. IF I stick around long enough, I will take a photo and post it for you.
 
Hi Paul, Is TSAM ever going to see the inside of the Hanger again? Between Louise and you it seems like TSAM is a couple miles above us all the time:D
Great stuff


Tsam was in the hangar when I arrived.



Halie.com link to image below / Photobucket above.

oiI.jpg


and in a different location in the same hangar when I left.

 
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Panther Sport

Sport Performance Aviation's new Panther may provide what many in this thread have been looking for, though obviously it's not an RV-3:

  • Single seat sport aircraft
  • Top speed of 200mph with a VNE of 220mph
  • Matched hole with 600 hour estimated build time
  • Up to 160hp with an O-320
  • Aerobatic +6/-4.4 G
  • Folding wings and fits in a covered trailer
  • $11,500 Kit price

At first glance it looks like a Fastback RV-3 with a Sam James cowl and Grove gear.

It isn't an RV-3. It's not from an established company like Vans. It doesn't have a builder site like this one. They just started shipping tail kits and have 0 customer completions. But, it sure got my attention and I've been watching the updates on their website closely.

I keep envisioning a Panther Sport with a ULPower ul520i and a glass panel! But I've made no decisions yet.

They told me an O-320 is the biggest engine it will handle, and IO-320 or C/S prop is too heavy, but eventually someone will do both. Right now it has a Sensenich composite fixed pitch prop.

Here's a Flight Test Video including an RV-4 as a chase and a write up from test pilot Bob Woolley. That plane is powered by a 120hp Corvair and I believe is the LSA version. I think Bob is building the first O-320 powered Panther Sport.

There's a Corvair 3400+ stroker kit engine in the works for $7,500.

One could build a Panther kit ($11,500) with a Corvair engine ($7,500), a Sensenich composite prop ($3,500) and a basic panel for around $25K, run it on mogas, trailer it and store it in the garage. Talk about an option to have a great performing plane at a relatively low initial and ongoing operating cost.

It would be interesting to see what others in this thread and forum think. The Sport model will likely compete with the RV-3, and the LSA version (different wings and engine) to some extent the RV-12 for those who don't need two seats.

756_DSC_0143.JPG


730_PantherFoldedOsh2013-2.JPG
 
Don't forget to add these things to the Panther kit price:

"What is not included in the kits?

Modified on: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:32 PM

Hardware like nuts, bolts, solid rivets and screws. We are working with the top hardware suppliers to put together Panther specific hardware kits. Instruments, engines, propeller, wheels and brakes and tools are also not included. The cowling, spinner and engine mount are not included."

Just be aware that it is not kitted the same as Van's offerings.

I'm keeping an eye on the progress as well.
 
Don't forget to add these things to the Panther kit price:

"What is not included in the kits?

Modified on: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:32 PM

Hardware like nuts, bolts, solid rivets and screws. We are working with the top hardware suppliers to put together Panther specific hardware kits. Instruments, engines, propeller, wheels and brakes and tools are also not included. The cowling, spinner and engine mount are not included."

Just be aware that it is not kitted the same as Van's offerings.

I'm keeping an eye on the progress as well.

Or a seat, paint, more rod end bearings because you mucked up the originals during painting, 2 day air shipping for the bolt that you really need before this weekend, 2" SCAT tubing, ooops make that 1.5" SCAT tubing (too late to cancel the original order though), a remodeled bathroom for the wife because you?re spending too much time and money on a single seat plane, breakers, dang electrical architecture change - make that fuses!, fancy tailwheel spring, etc :D
 
Good points Mike. I'd wait for the FWF package to be available for my engine of choice before pulling the trigger. There are extras to be purchased outside of the kit, but it still seems like the time and total cost to build and operate (TCO) a Panther would be less than the RV-3, with performance far exceeding the OneX. For those of us in areas where hangars are scarce and/or expensive, the folding wing option is huge.

It's not kitted like Vans (yet), but it seems like the matched-hole, minimal fabrication, and modern plans with CAD drawings as compared to the RV-3 are key. Vans estimates 2,000 hours to build the RV-3. SPA estimates 600 for the Panther (must assume a FWF kit is available).

Rob, I thought I'd be building a -8, but more recently have considered the RV-3, OneX, and Panther, all of which are single seaters. Wife doesn't particularly enjoy flying, so to her, single seat is a very important feature! :( Given that, a single seat maximizes economics and pilot fun factor. :D

So, for the Ops and others' daydreams of a matched-hole RV-3, the Panther seems like a viable option worth considering. I am. And while I've decided against a OneX, I haven't crossed the RV-3 off the short list.
 
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