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RV-10 Front Seats

Carl Froehlich

Carl Froehlich

Well Known Member
I ordered my Finish Kit February 2022. It got shipped May 2023. The front seats were not sent, listed as Back Ordered.

Has anyone received the front seats this year (2023)? Van's is not responding to my emails asking for status.

If you are also waiting, how long since your Finish Kit arrived?

Carl
 
Mine were backordered when I built (2021) and for Phase 1 I borrowed a Co-pilot seat from a friend with an RV-10. I installed on the Pilot side.

Not sure if you have anyone if your area that would be willing to loan you a seat but it might be a possibility to get you flying.
 
Carl Froehlich said:
I ordered my Finish Kit February 2022. It got shipped May 2023. The front seats were not sent, listed as Back Ordered.

Has anyone received the front seats this year (2023)? Van's is not responding to my emails asking for status.

If you are also waiting, how long since your Finish Kit arrived?

Carl
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat.
 
Kent Helling said:
Same story here. Received my finish kit in May, but still waiting on seats, main wheels and brakes.
Click to expand...

Looks like I was smart to order the finish kit without the mains and brakes. I’m using the very nice Matco RV-10 wheel set instead. It has been sitting on the shelf for well over a year now. I found the stock brakes on the first RV-10 to not be all that great.
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/

The missing front seats however present a major roadblock. Any of you that are missing the seats heard from Van’s on what to expect?

Carl
 
Waiting on a set of front seats from a finish kit shipped 3/13/23. Ordered 9/13/21.

No word, idea, or communication. Original timeline to fulfill the backorder was supposed to be Oct/Nov of '23.
 
Still waiting for seats

I ordered my RV-10 Finish Kit in Jun 2021 and it was delivered Dec 2022.

I ordered the stock wheels and brakes which were backordered, but have now been received.

I am still waiting on the front seats.
 
Received -10 seats Apr23
Received -10 finish kit Sep22
Placed -10 finish kit order May21

I know this probably doesn’t help as it is so far in the past but I haven’t seen anyone else post when they actually did receive an RV-10 seat order so here you go.

Regards,
Zach
 
So, it looks like to expect a set of -10 seats over 2 years after order placement. I'd say it would be likely to expect an additional year delay after kit delivery to see them as of current.

(also note..... these are manufactured by Oregon Aero, not VANS. So, they could be on ransom as another creditor)
 
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iwannarv said:
So, it looks like to expect a set of -10 seats over 2 years after order placement. I'd say it would be likely to expect an additional year delay after kit delivery to see them as of current.

(also note..... these are manufactured by Oregon Aero, not VANS. So, they could be on ransom as another creditor)
Click to expand...

I believe there was a note from Van’s at Oshkosh this year saying they were moving away from Oregon Aero to an in-house design, but I can’t find anything on it now.
 
Seat assemblies still BO'd

Order Date 2/15/22
Ship Date 5/17/23 (main order)

Several backorder shipments received subsequently. Last was gear elastomers at the end of October.

Backorder parts remaining: BAG 1522, CA SEAT ASSEMBLY-10
 
Update from Anne at Van’s

Good news, Anne tells me they are expecting deliver of 100 seats to clear out the backlog!

Carl
 
Price Increase?

I'm also in the same RV-10 front seats-boat. Received the Finishing Kit July '23, ordered Aug '21. Just checked the Vans storefront and the cost on the CA SEAT ASSEMBLY -10 has increased from: $10,205 to $17,858.75! Are we on the hook for the $7,653.75? :eek:

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-assembly-10-ca-seat-assembly-10.html

I'm also still missing the seat rails from the Fuse Kit. Looks like those prices increased 75% from $475 EA to $831.25 EA (EA meaning R/L) -an increase of $356.25 EA or $712.5 for L + R

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-rail-r-10-ca-seat-rail-r-10.html

Do we have to pay the increase for Backordered parts? That would mean I may have to pay an additional $8,366.25 for the Front Seats.... :eek:
 
Kyle Boatright said:
I genuinely don't understand how those seats plus rails can cost almost as much as some new cars.
Click to expand...

Because they don't; They think that grossly inflating the markup will solve their cash problem. I have to say that someone at Vans has gone just a bit overboard with the pricing. Seems that someone just waived a 75% wand over every part they sell. While I feel for Vans, I just don't see how this approach works well for them long term if they let it stand. $17,000 for two seat frames and 4 pieces of foam is insane. At some point, customers will revolt.

Doubling all of the prices may solve the short term problems, as they have a whole bunch of customers without other choices. Once that bulge clears the system, l see real concerns. If I were looking at a kit purchase today and happened to check parts prices, I would think twice before signing on the dotted line. If the fuselage kit is $30K, but they charge $17K just for the seats, that tells me that the company intends to truly "stick it to me" with any replacement part I may need to purchase and would not leave me with a warm feeling. I get the fact that they are going to charge more for an individual part than for the representative portion that was in the kit, but it still needs to be reasonable. $17K for two seats is simply not reasonable. WHile I can see taking the $11 plastic part to $19, you cannot apply that same approach to a $10K part.

This all really kind of sad. Vans built their reputation by charging fair and reasonable prices on pretty much EVERYTHING that they sold and up until recently was a starategy that made Van a wealthy man. I certainly agree that prices need to keep pace with the reality of their cost, however, these recent moves go totally against Vans business model for the last several decades. I can't say that I am surprised though. You bring in a bunch of outside consultants and they fill your head with all sorts of ideas that may work for other companies, but don't mesh with your culture. I certainly hope at some point they take a breath and re think some of these changes. And I REALLY hope that I never have one of the seats in my 10 break.

Larry
 
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lr172 said:
… $17K for two seats is simply not reasonable. WHile I can see taking the $11 plastic part to $19, you cannot apply that same approach to a $10K part.
Larry
Click to expand...

Yep. If that price holds, someone will reverse engineer their -10 seats and sell them for 1/3 that price. Then Vans will lose even more revenue.
 
Well 2 months ago a pair of seats for the 10 was $6500, after there chapter 11 announcement and the new prices came out, it went to $10,200. Then sometime this week it jump to its new price.
 
Just thoughts:

Can you build the seats and rails ?
Does someone have plans they can post ?
Can you use auto racing seats with rails ?
Thinking carbon fiber etc.
Could go to Jegs or Summit and find some that
Will work for a fraction of this price.



My .05
Boomer
 
BobTurner said:
Yep. If that price holds, someone will reverse engineer their -10 seats and sell them for 1/3 that price. Then Vans will lose even more revenue.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but when I contacted a well-known vendor about a substitute part, they told me they had considered the idea but ultimately decided against it, because the part could be considered "safety related," and it would open them up to significant liability to offer an alternative.

I'd imagine a possible alternate seat vendor would have to make a similar calculated decision.
 
Bruce said:
Just thoughts:

Can you build the seats and rails ?
Does someone have plans they can post ?
Can you use auto racing seats with rails ?
Thinking carbon fiber etc.
Could go to Jegs or Summit and find some that
Will work for a fraction of this price.
My .05
Boomer
Click to expand...

There are some engineering concerns. Since the occupants of these seats on a -10 sit directly above the very rigid spar carry-thru structure, there is very little crush space available for vertical decelerations- the seat frame and cushions are designed to provide that. Which is why I suggested reverse engineering an existing seat.
 
All I am saying is

If I had backordered seats and everything was finished on the plane.
I would go another route and finish and fly.

It is

EXPERIMENT

not a certified airplane.

Flew a BD–4 with fiberglass boat seat in it .:eek:


Boomer
 
$17K just for two seats - that sounds like a joke :eek:
There must be a way for some aftermarket vendor to step in.

Finish kit also includes gear legs and engine mount. Can these parts be purchased individually from VANs ? I would just assemble my own finish kit assuming I can get these critical parts separately.
I am sure that seats solution can be found, cowlings are available aftermarket, hmm doors.. :confused:

$17K just for seats… :eek: CRAZY!
 
vinzer said:
$17K just for two seats - that sounds like a joke :eek:
There must be a way for some aftermarket vendor to step in.

Finish kit also includes gear legs and engine mount. Can these parts be purchased individually from VANs ? I would just assemble my own finish kit assuming I can get these critical parts separately.
I am sure that seats solution can be found, cowlings are available aftermarket, hmm doors.. :confused:

$17K just for seats… :eek: CRAZY!
Click to expand...

You can always try Aerosport. I don’t know their delivery timeline, but their prices haven’t caught up to Vans (yet).
 
Jesse23 said:
You can always try Aerosport. I don’t know their delivery timeline, but their prices haven’t caught up to Vans (yet).
Click to expand...

Aerosport doesn't make the seat frame nor rails. They only cover the seats with fabric on the frames the customer sends them and they also provide foam for the rear seats.
 
Although I'm building a -14, I have several friends (and posters on this board) that are building -10's and we had an opportunity to take a very close look at the -10 seats last Saturday. The idea was to brainstorm and see how realistic it would be to make our own or possibly reverse engineer the seats.

An abbreviated list of our observations is below:
  • The seats are ultra simple
  • There are a total of 10 welds on the seats. Four of them are spot welds for bolts, 2 are on a very basic torque tube and 4 are where tubing comes together. The only welds that would take any minor skill are where the tubing meets the tubing (4 places).
  • We originally believed the getting the bends in the tubing correct would be tough, this is not the case.
  • The most complex portion of the seat appears to be the aluminum extrusion that slides over the seat rails. This part would be very difficult to manufacture by unless you're in a business that produces extrusions.
  • There is nothing else on the seat that couldn't be made by a first year machinist with a mill in a short period of time.
  • The seats are already assembled (bolted together). Anybody on this forum has has completed most of the the first chapter of their build could assemble each seat in an hour or two. The assembly is just bolted together yet the seats are sent assembled increasing shipping costs and creating an additional step for the manufacturer.

Sunday, we had a conversation with a well known industry manufacturer (and advertiser on this site) and showed him pictures and measurements. He stated that the extrusion would be the toughest part to develop and that making the seat rails would not be difficult. He had concerns about the patent number listed on the canvas portion of the seat. He also believed that the head to extrude the aluminum could be made rather inexpensively.

It is our opinion that there is something else going on here. Profit is not a dirty word and all companies need to make good margin, Van's is no different. I wish them the best and hope that they survive and in the end make excellent margins. However, it is my opinion that there is a difference between what is legal and what is ethical with regard to the current cost of the seats. I'll leave it at that.

The manufacturer we spoke with is interested in looking into making the seats. However, he had 3 main concerns: 1) what is the realistic demand/volume? 2) what would be a fair or acceptable price to the market? 3) is there a patent on the seat itself?. Based on what he saw, he also thought that perhaps the pricing was in error and that Vans may revisit what they are charging for the seats when they have the opportunity or find a solution.

Ultimately, he believed if the shop drawings became available the problem could have a solution in a reasonably short period of time.

Anybody out there have access to the shop/dimensional drawings?
 
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Reflex said:
Although I'm building a -14, I have several friends (and posters on this board) that are building -10's and we had an opportunity to take a very close look at the -10 seats last Saturday. The idea was to brainstorm and see how realistic it would be to make our own or possibly reverse engineer the seats.

An abbreviated list of our observations is below:
  • The seats are ultra simple
  • There are a total of 10 welds on the seats. Four of them are spot welds for bolts, 2 are on a very basic torque tube and 4 are where tubing comes together. The only welds that would take any minor skill are where the tubing meets the tubing (4 places).
  • We originally believed the getting the bends in the tubing correct would be tough, this is not the case.
  • The most complex portion of the seat appears to be the aluminum extrusion that slides over the seat rails. This part would be very difficult to manufacture by unless you're in a business that produces extrusions.
  • There is nothing else on the seat that couldn't be made by a first year machinist with a mill in a short period of time.
  • The seats are already assembled (bolted together). Anybody on this forum has has completed most of the the first chapter of their build could assemble each seat in an hour or two. The assembly is just bolted together yet the seats are sent assembled increasing shipping costs and creating an additional step for the manufacturer.

Sunday, we had a conversation with a well known industry manufacturer (and advertiser on this site) and showed him pictures and measurements. He stated that the extrusion would be the toughest part to develop and that making the seat rails would not be difficult. He had concerns about the patent number listed on the canvas portion of the seat. He also believed that the head to extrude the aluminum could be made rather inexpensively.

It is our opinion that there is something else going on here. Profit is not a dirty word and all companies need to make good margin, Van's is no different. I wish them the best and hope that they survive and in the end make excellent margins. However, it is my opinion that there is a difference between what is legal and what is ethical with regard to the current cost of the seats. I'll leave it at that.

The manufacturer we spoke with is interested in looking into making the seats. However, he had 3 main concerns: 1) what is the realistic demand/volume? 2) what would be a fair or acceptable price to the market? 3) is there a patent on the seat itself?. Based on what he saw, he also thought that perhaps the pricing was in error and that Vans may revisit what they are charging for the seats when they have the opportunity or find a solution.

Ultimately, he believed if the shop drawings became available the problem could have a solution in a reasonably short period of time.

Anybody out there have access to the shop/dimensional drawings?
Click to expand...

None of this really applies to much of anything. Can't imagine there are more than a handfull of people in the world that would buy RV-10 seats separately from an RV-10 kit and therefore the stand alone price is irrelevant. As I mentioned, this is just someone blindly applying a 75% increase to ALL parts across the board. It is a foolish business decision and one that I am sure will be rectified once Vans gets an established mgmt team in place. We must remember that chaos is ruling the day at Vans, so not surprising to see this kind of stuff going on. Two ways this whole thing goes. THey hire a quality mgmt team that will come in and slowly rebuild a sustainable business that both meets customer demands as well as reasonable profit objectives or they don't and they slowly drift off into the sunset. What they have done in the last month is not sustainable IMHO, but that is just a product of the chaos and not necessarily the new Vans.

Yes, people are now looking to buy seats because Vans is refusing to ship B/O parts. But that is a short term by product of the BK plan. That will pass. What makes it especially foolish is that if the price were more reasonable, some folks would choose to buy them even though they are owed a set as part of a kit and therefore net Vans more cash. Again, just a chaotic reaction instead of a sound business strategy.

FYI, the RV 10 was released around 06, so the seats would have been designed around 04 or 05, so if there was a patent, it likely is either expired or soon to expire. If a contemporary sticker only says "patent pending," it is likely that one was never granted. Normally a patent # is listed once one is granted.

Larry
 
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Vans now has a no deletions or returns policy. So even if a third-party solution existed, there's little advantage in finding an aftermarket solution.

Who's going to buy your outrageously priced factory seat frames, so you can install aftermarket?

There are a number of well established higher priced mods on the market that Van's should offer directly as options if they are not going to allow deletions or returns.

Cowlings, windows, pedals, brakes and wheels, wingtips, door latching hardware, and seats now that they are apparently made out of unobtanium and are $18,000.00 for the pair.

I think these business decisions will effectively kill off the incentive for others to create cool mods for our planes. Certainly the more expensive items.
 
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Everwild said:
Vans now has a no deletions or returns policy.
Click to expand...

While they have stated that they will no longer allow deletions or additions to kit orders, their current return policy still allows returns of merchandise with conditions. Depending on your location and circumstances, it may not be economically reasonable to return parts, however, returns are still acceptable.

Their current return policy is here

Summarized Return Eligibility
  • Returns accepted from original purchaser only.
  • Any item returned must be a product Van’s Aircraft currently sells.
  • No returns on Construction Documents, books, CD or DVD’s or flash drives.
  • No returns or refunds will be allowed on opened software.
  • No returns on special order or custom manufactured components.
  • Returns on Avionics, electrical, and instrumentation will only be accepted within 60 days of purchase.
  • All other items may be returned within 1 year from date of purchase by original purchaser only. A 10% restocking fee will be charged to cover return costs, unless Van’s determines that the circumstances dictate otherwise.
  • Return of any RV-12 component (other than for replacement) will render aircraft ineligible for E-LSA licensing.
  • No COD returns accepted.
 
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The answer is simple - don't order the kit. Order just the parts you want, individually. Yes that means you'll have to do some paperwork with parts list - how many dollars per hour is your time worth? Do the math, make a decision.
 
airguy said:
The answer is simple - don't order the kit. Order just the parts you want, individually. Yes that means you'll have to do some paperwork with parts list - how many dollars per hour is your time worth? Do the math, make a decision.
Click to expand...

For what it’s worth, I had a conversation with someone in the parts department last week about the baffling kit for an IO-390 on a -7. Was told that I could delete items on the kit. Spent several hours deleting parts of the EXP-390 baffling kit. Only had about 1/2 the parts left, and several pricy items deleted. The grand total was $5 less than the ENTIRE kit! Just ended up ordering the complete kit (for $5 more).

Good luck.
 
iwannarv said:
So, it looks like to expect a set of -10 seats over 2 years after order placement. I'd say it would be likely to expect an additional year delay after kit delivery to see them as of current.

(also note..... these are manufactured by Oregon Aero, not VANS. So, they could be on ransom as another creditor)
Click to expand...

Edit: ignore my previous post ...
In doc 54 of the Chapter 11 filing, I see that Vans does, indeed, owe Oregon Aero >$86,000, so you may be right, here. But, it doesn't make sense that OA would ship 100 seats (>$700,000) then claim $86,000 as an unsecured creditor???
 
jimbom said:
Edit: ignore my previous post ...
In doc 54 of the Chapter 11 filing, I see that Vans does, indeed, owe Oregon Aero >$86,000, so you may be right, here. But, it doesn't make sense that OA would ship 100 seats (>$700,000) then claim $86,000 as an unsecured creditor???
Click to expand...

It does if Vans paid them in advance. I doubt ANYONE would ship ANYTHING to Vans right now that wasn't COD or prepaid. Almost no one sells on credit to a company in chap 11. I wouldn't be surprised if that deal also included the $86K previously owed.
 
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rongawer said:
While they have stated that they will no longer allow deletions or additions to kit orders, their current return policy still allows returns of merchandise with conditions. Depending on your location and circumstances, it may not be economically reasonable to return parts, however, returns are still acceptable.

Their current return policy is here

Summarized Return Eligibility
  • Returns accepted from original purchaser only.
  • Any item returned must be a product Van’s Aircraft currently sells.
  • No returns on Construction Documents, books, CD or DVD’s or flash drives.
  • No returns or refunds will be allowed on opened software.
  • No returns on special order or custom manufactured components.
  • Returns on Avionics, electrical, and instrumentation will only be accepted within 60 days of purchase.
  • All other items may be returned within 1 year from date of purchase by original purchaser only. A 10% restocking fee will be charged to cover return costs, unless Van’s determines that the circumstances dictate otherwise.
  • Return of any RV-12 component (other than for replacement) will render aircraft ineligible for E-LSA licensing.
  • No COD returns accepted.
Click to expand...

That doesn’t seem to apply to kits though see:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/order-a-kit/kit-ordering-details-and-policies/


In particular:

RETURNS
Kits and kit contents may not be returned or refunded. Individual parts or products purchased outside of a kit order may be returned within 60 days of receipt for a customer credit of 80%. You must secure an RMA number from the Van’s Aircraft shipping department prior to returning any items. All returned parts must be unused and in new, sellable condition. Van’s Aircraft is not liable for returned parts that are damaged due to shipping and will not offer credit or refund for damage or loss outside of Van’s Aircraft’s control. You should obtain insurance for items of significant value.


Oliver
 
Prices in flux?

Looks like the Front Seat Prices returned back to pre-xmas "norm" ($10,715.25)..... -well, $510 more than the previous price of $10,205

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-assembly-10-ca-seat-assembly-10.html

Strange...

Rails have also dropped to more realistic prices, too... $498.75ea.

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-rail-r-10-ca-seat-rail-r-10.html

Looks like they are correcting individual prices from the "blanket" 75% to a more reasonable increase. Though still no word on whether we will have to pay the increase before shipping the backorder, or not.
 
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FlightTwins said:
Received the kit on March 17, still not a word on the seats. But I’m not ready for them yet.
Click to expand...

Point of info -

Rec'd 10 SEAT RAILS L and R set and nose link assembly today from Vans.

Shows CA SEAT ASSEMBLY-10 and WD-1017-1PC (nose gear) still back ordered.

10 Finish kit Ordered 1/18/22
 
mtebbe said:
Looks like the Front Seat Prices returned back to pre-xmas "norm" ($10,715.25)..... -well, $510 more than the previous price of $10,205

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-assembly-10-ca-seat-assembly-10.html

Strange...

Rails have also dropped to more realistic prices, too... $498.75ea.

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-rail-r-10-ca-seat-rail-r-10.html

Looks like they are correcting individual prices from the "blanket" 75% to a more reasonable increase. Though still no word on whether we will have to pay the increase before shipping the backorder, or not.
Click to expand...

Does that mean that finish kit price is now $7K less ?
 
mtebbe said:
Looks like the Front Seat Prices returned back to pre-xmas "norm" ($10,715.25)..... -well, $510 more than the previous price of $10,205

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-assembly-10-ca-seat-assembly-10.html

Strange...

Rails have also dropped to more realistic prices, too... $498.75ea.

https://store.vansaircraft.com/ca-seat-rail-r-10-ca-seat-rail-r-10.html

Looks like they are correcting individual prices from the "blanket" 75% to a more reasonable increase. Though still no word on whether we will have to pay the increase before shipping the backorder, or not.
Click to expand...

Just got the notice of backordered RV10 seat rails ready to ship along with a request for payment of $90.25 to cover the increased cost and shipping. Looks like backorders are being subjected to paying for the difference just like kits.
 
I have backordered front seat assemblies and no shipping yet.

Is the consensus that we do not need to file a claim? My finish kit was paid and delivered in mid 2023. The front seats are the only remaining backordered item.
 
abaden said:
I have backordered front seat assemblies and no shipping yet.

Is the consensus that we do not need to file a claim? My finish kit was paid and delivered in mid 2023. The front seats are the only remaining backordered item.
Click to expand...
I'm in the same situation. At the meeting of creditors, Van's reps said they would fulfill all backordered items of kits already delivered. That said, if I don't see that statement in writing before the deadline, considering seats now cost more than the empennage kit, I'll be filling a claim just in case.
 
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