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RV-10 DOOR Separation need to know!

Your posts are very informative. Thanks for the feed back.

Jesse has restored 416EC and has added some kind of fix but I have not seen it yet. I just know our insurance company laid out a bundle of cash---pretty soon it may get to be an economic factor.

In general, I heard that there is common concern with the doors but it seems to me there is no consensus on a uniform way to make them safer/fool proof, be it (1) mechanical, (2) stringent preflight checks, or (3) combination of (1) & (2). I suppose that is the challenge.
 
I'm not a -10 owner or builder but I remember a lot of talk about how nice it was to have doors on both sides.

This had me thinking, what if you sealed the right door? Then the only door to open would be the pilot's door and he/she would be the last one in and first one out.

Just a thought.
 
Will, a little off topic...

willpeacock said:
Your posts are very informative. Thanks for the feed back.

Jesse has restored 416EC and has added some kind of fix but I have not seen it yet. I just know our insurance company laid out a bundle of cash---pretty soon it may get to be an economic factor.

In general, I heard that there is common concern with the doors but it seems to me there is no consensus on a uniform way to make them safer/fool proof, be it (1) mechanical, (2) stringent preflight checks, or (3) combination of (1) & (2). I suppose that is the challenge.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if Jesse would be willing to share his story (adventure) of the flight after the door separation? Things like how are was the plane to fly with that kind of damage. Anything he did to compensate for the conditions, etc. Just curious, but maybe I could learn something that could help me if I ever get into trouble in my airplane.

Kent
 
Kentb

I'm sorry for not saying Jesse is the builder,with Saint Aviation, and the one who has restored 416EC. It was not him flying the plane. My partner is listed in the NTSB report. I know he is not following all this. I suppose you cauld call him. I did speak to him this morning about all the concern expressed on VAF.
 
Will-
After looking at the pictures of the upper hinges I have a few questions/comments.

It appears that the two layers of the door split apart near the hinges. The remaining surface appears as if there was too little resin between the layers. Was this your observation?

The flat head bolts on each door hinge have the head partially ground off. My guess is they were embedded into the fiberglass so they would not turn when tightened from below and would look beautiful externally. The bolts are in tension and the joint is severely weakened when:
1) there is less head surface from grinding
2) the head is buried deep into the fiberglass
3) the nut is over torqued shattering the fiberglass (this becomes extremely sensitive due to #1).

If the hinge is still available for examination - what is the distance between the inside of the door surface (or nut/washer) and the top of the flat head bolt?

I believe safety is compromised if a builder sinks this bolt head into the fiberglass on the upper door hinges. Countersinking below flush will also weaken the joint.

I am new to this site but familiar with RV-10s. Built kit #40029 and flying since August 2006. 180 hours to date.

Bill
 
At 200mph I don't think it really matters about the hinge attachment. You are going to lose the door!
 
Welcome!!

billderou said:
I am new to this site but familiar with RV-10s. Built kit #40029 and flying since August 2006. 180 hours to date. Bill
Click to expand...

Flying for a year and a half +????

And you just joined VAF??? How in the world did you ever finish the plane??:D

Good to have you aboard.
 
Several comments have suggested that the hinge attach was too weak, but at 200 mph something is going to leave. I'd much prefer the hinge attach fail, rather than flap around out there until a big chunk of upper fuse lets go instead.
 
Finer Point

You're missing my point. I am speculating that the upper door to hinge connection was very weak and may have been the first to break.

The rear rod guide is also suspect. It looks like the rod did not extend much beyond the guide. Look at the protective shield - it was never marked or torn out by the pin. When RV-10s have taken off with the rear rod outside the plane the door open immediately. This door opened in cruise when the pressure was the greatest.

There are only 4 hardpoints securing the door and I see evidence that 3 were weak. If I can obtain general consensus from the facts that this is true then this becomes an isolated case and I can believe Vans design is acceptable and my aircraft is safe. Otherwise, I need to keep digging.

Bill
 
I went out and examined the latch rods in my plane, and my buddys also-----

Out of 4 doors, and 8 rods, the difference in travel, and position was rather eye opening.

I also went over the plans/instructions extremely closely---------WOW, what a dismal lack of information that was.

Just to clarify one point-----when I bought my plane, the doors were already done, so this was the first time I had actually perused the plans.

What I found on my plane was that the rack and pinion on the right door was a couple teeth out of "timing", and the inner handle was only swinging 90*, not the 120* or so it should have------this equated to apx 3/8" lack of engagement travel at the latch:eek:

The previous builder had modified the left latch to include a lock, but in doing so, it appears that there was some re-rigging of the rear/lower rack, and shortening of the front rod.

I ended up having to drill out the blind rivet that is used as a travel stop on the top/front rod, and drilled and tapped a longitudinal hole in the end of the rack. I used a 6-32 screw and washer to make a new stop at the very end of the gear rack. This gave me a little over 1/4" additional travel------which is what was needed to fully engage the latch rod into the fuse.

The plans I have are dated 2005, rev 0, so I do not know if the current plans have the door mechanism with more detail, but the points I would have liked to have seen are:
1. a dimension for the rod travel-----total travel, and total extension.
2. proper arc of travel for the door handle.
3. verbiage specifically stating to install the gear racks butted to the stop rivet-----lousy design, a roll pin is much better----when the inner door handle is in the locked detent position. As it is the only notation on my plans is "note rivet position"-----at first glance, it appears to be nothing more than a reminder that the stop rivets are on different ends, top and bottom. After a lot of re-reading, and thought, it appears that the drawing (isometric:rolleyes:) is showing the rivets in the "stop" position. Or, maybe not????:confused:

Bottom line, is it is pretty easy to get the door latch to work, but it takes a bit of effort to insure it is working correctly. Correctly in my opinion means all four pins fully engaging the structure----F/G top, and alum channel.
 
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Imaginary Door Instructions

Yes Mike-
I found only the basics of the door instructions useful and had to make up the rest. Unfortunately, this means that with 100 RV-10s each door is probably different and there is no manufacturing control.

Looking back I did a few things right.

Once you have the handle working at 120 degrees you can trim the rods. With the door handle open to the stops I cut the rod length where the tip of the taper is flush with the outside of the Teflon guide. Any longer the rod will cut into the sill and any shorter and the rod will not extend to its max.

I aligned the doors and drilled the four "forever" holes in the frame. After I added the insulating strip the door fit changed more than I would have liked. Two problems emerged: the rod needed to be moved and the soft Teflon guides were getting chopped up by the taper rod.

I purchased a block of Nylon (much harder) and using a chop saw and a drill press machined new guides for the door sill. Next I closed the door handle and marked the existing position of the door. Then retracted the rods and marked the more desirable position of the door. Machined the lower door guides to the new rod location keeping the mounting bolt location asis. This gave me control over the fit and I had to remove yet more fiberglass from the lower door edge.

There are several electronic schemes one could use for the reed switch and the magnet in the end of the rod. It is very sensitive and works very well. If the rod moves .125 the alarm is triggered. And if the rod is outside the door jamb it shows an error as well.

Another thing I did was foam the inside of the door to create a more unified structure. This was just mental on my part and I have not noticed any benefit except the door is stiffer. Used Ace Hardware "Big Gap Fill" cans of sticky foam. Drilled 15 .625 holes to let the pressure out as the foam expanded and filled them later. Filled all gaps above the latching assembly.

In flight there are no air leaks from the door and it does not move or bulge out.

If you can get the doors right you can do anything.

Bill
 
billderou said:
Will-
After looking at the pictures of the upper hinges I have a few questions/comments.

It appears that the two layers of the door split apart near the hinges. The remaining surface appears as if there was too little resin between the layers. Was this your observation?

The flat head bolts on each door hinge have the head partially ground off. My guess is they were embedded into the fiberglass so they would not turn when tightened from below and would look beautiful externally. The bolts are in tension and the joint is severely weakened when:
1) there is less head surface from grinding
2) the head is buried deep into the fiberglass
3) the nut is over torqued shattering the fiberglass (this becomes extremely sensitive due to #1).

If the hinge is still available for examination - what is the distance between the inside of the door surface (or nut/washer) and the top of the flat head bolt?

I believe safety is compromised if a builder sinks this bolt head into the fiberglass on the upper door hinges. Countersinking below flush will also weaken the joint.

I am new to this site but familiar with RV-10s. Built kit #40029 and flying since August 2006. 180 hours to date.

Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, Jesse Saint([email protected]) would have the hinges since he did the restoration. Feel free to ask him. I will also. Excellentpoint.
 
I talked with Jesse this morning and from the pilots description of the failure he was sure that the bottom of the door failed first and then ripped off the hinges.

Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, flying
 
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