What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Pre-Buy Inspection

SquawkVFR

Member
***Editing for context*****

Begin edit:

Not trying to show off here, but just for context: I have over a decade of experience as a mechanical and electrical design engineer. I've designed, built, assembed, and throubleshot dozens of machines and their associated wire harnessess and material specifications, from concept all the way through long-term field support. I'm an engineer, but I'm also a seasoned technician with many years of turning a wrench. I also have a minor in Aerospace Engineering. In other words, I could probably handle most of these fixes myself. Just looking for more seasoned owners' insights about any signs of deeper issues that may not be apparent upon visual inspection.

The price reflects the condition.

I asked Vic to do the inspection, but he said the location is outside the distance he is willing to travel.

The aircraft recently passed its annual Condition Inspection. No offense to the A&Ps out there, but I don't have much confidence in your run of the mill A&P based on the results of this inspection.

End edit.

I'm shopping for my first airplane purchase, so I bought Vic Syracuse's Pre-Buy book. Fortunately, the seller was tolerant of me taking 10 hours over two days to inspect his aircraft. During the course of my inspection, there were some findings for which I'd like to get your advice. I'll enumerate my concerns and then attach pictures at the end for clarity. Please provide any advice you have with respect to my findings and whether I should proceed with the purchase or wait for another to come on the market.

Keep in mind that I'm only sharing my findings. There were over a hundred items I inspected, and these were the only issues I found. The form, fit, and function of the overall construction of the aircraft was excellent in my unprofessional experience.

  1. One side of the oil cooler mounting bracket has sheared completely off. Vic was keen to point out that many Vans aircraft builders improperly mount the cooler to the engine baffling. The stress induced on the brackets due to the engine vibration upon the free-sprung weight of the cooler typically causes this failure. What is the solution here?
  2. The canopy slide cutout is off-center, and the rail appears to have had an extra hole drilled in it right next to another for some reason, and there is not a screw in either hole.
  3. There are two cracks in the canopy - one on either side. They are both just over a foot in length, and the "stop drill" attempted was outside the centerline of the crack path. Because the stop drills were outside the centerline of the cracks, they failed to prevent the growth of the cracks, and the cracks grew beyond the drill holes. Vans has replacement canopies in stock, but my concern is: to get this thing back to Tucson, I'll need to fly through Banning Pass, which means I'll need to take it up to ~9k feet MSL. Should I replace the canopy before flying it home?
  4. The left tire appears to be worn at a fairly steep angle. The right tire does not appear to be unevenly worn. What could cause this?
  5. Both of the wing spar bolts appear to have been coated with some material that has completely dissolved the fuselage panel paint below the screw heads. What could have caused this, and is this a concern?
  6. Vic's Pre-Buy book indicates that there should be two bolts between the upper and lower sets of wing spar bolts. This aircraft did not have these bolts installed, although both spars have four upper and four lower sets of bolts installed. Does the RV-8A not have a pair of bolts between the upper set of four and lower set of four?
  7. An 1/8" thick layer of black grime was observed underneath the upper main landing gear fairings. What could have caused this, and is it a concern?
  8. There was a 5-gallon jug of water sitting in the rear storage compartment. The reason given was for solo weight and balance. Is this expected, and if not, what concern(s), if any, should I have about this finding? I know it says "gasoline," but I confirmed it's just water.
IMG_8346.jpegIMG_8334.jpegIMG_8342.jpegIMG_8323.jpegIMG_8341.jpegIMG_8301.jpegIMG_8287.jpegIMG_8214.jpegIMG_8289.jpegIMG_8288.jpeg
 
Last edited:
9. The left exhaust tube appears to have burned through the rounded sheet metal firewall panel. What could have caused this, and is this a concern?
10. Vic warned to inspect for signs of hard landings. The nosewheel shaft at the firewall appears to have impacted the firewall, causing an indentation. I inspected the mains and didn't notice any signs of damage. Is this a concern?
IMG_8182.jpegIMG_8236.jpeg
 
I don’t think that this is the one for your first airplane and I would pass on it.

Should you decide to move forward, I would talk to a knowledgeable RV A&P to discuss what you are getting into.
 
I'm impressed by your clear descriptions and illustrative photographs, not to mention your effective use of Vic Syracuse's pre-buy book. My only thought is that what you do from here depends on your gestalt about this airplane...how well is otherwise suits your needs, the negotiated price, and what other options the market might offer you. If your inclination is to pursue this particular airplane, I would investigate arranging an actual on-site pre-buy inspection. Ideally from Vic Syracuse himself, but otherwise some other knowledgeable RV person. I think there are too any red flags that you need to clear up to rely on internet advice and without availing yourself of an expert on-site evaluation.
 
Last edited:
RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! 😳 😳 😳 (with appologies to Monty Python....)
This airplane does not appear to have been well-taken care of. There are WAY too many 'RED FLAGS' and those are just the ones you listed. Imagine those we cannot see! 5 gallons of water for solo flight???? Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I would comment on all the other things you listed but have to go race this afternoon and it would take me until I left to discuss them! Yeah......um.........yikes! Keep looking! A better airplane will come along........unless he's asking $5k...........then think about it........ 🤪
 
Last edited:
Have you sent all of this to Vic? Ask him and give him the other particulars not mentioned here like price, and if he thinks an on site inspection from him is worth it. That should give you the answer you're looking for. The only way I would personally buy it would depend highly on the price because anything can be fixed, for a price AND time.
 
"vans has replacement canopy in stock"
Yes... but have you looked at the plans to see whats involved in installing one?
If anything like the 6, 7, 9 --- the canopy as shipped is way oversized, requires lots of trim and fit.

Just helped a guy with a 12 swap canopy, and found out he couldn't find anyone besides me to touch the job in S. California.
 
Baffle mounted oil cooler cracks are common, but they don’t fall clean off overnight.
Tire has been rubbing for a while, or bad gear alignment. Either way, that kind of wear also doesn’t happen overnight.
General dirty appearance of everything, tells us this aircraft wasn’t maintained very well. What else wasn’t?
The canopy is arguably one of the most difficult construction items. Takes a lot of time.
I know you have time invested in this airplane, but it may not be the best “first RV”.
I wouldn’t spend anymore time on it and move on, regardless of price, if flying is your priority over time spent on a fixer upper.
By the way, AC43 xxxxx is typically called out in your OP’s limits. There is wording in there requiring that things are cleaned as part of a CI. It’s a bad sign to see grime that has built up over time. Normal dirt, wear and tear, sure, but this airplane hasn’t been cleaned. Always inspect before cleaning as dirt, oil, grease, can tell a story, but after the initial inspection, clean it, and look again.
Good luck in your search.
 
I have to agree with the consensus. Just too many negatives in my opinion to proceed Regardless of the price.
if it were me I’d be moving on. Too many good planes out there, patience I think is the key to purchasing a used RV.
You will know when the right one comes along and won’t have to sweat out the negatives.
 
I'm impressed by your clear descriptions and illustrative photographs, not to mention your effective use of Vic Syracuse's pre-buy book. My only thought is that what you do from here depends on your gestalt about this airplane...how well is otherwise suits your needs, the negotiated price, and what other options the market might offer you. If your inclination is to pursue this particular airplane, I would investigate arranging an actual on-site pre-buy inspection. Ideally from Vic Syracuse himself, but otherwise some other knowledgeable RV person. I think there are too any red flags that you need to clear up to rely on internet advice and without availing yourself of an expert on-site evaluation.
I asked Vic to come take a look, but he's not doing inspection on the west coast any more. Any recommendations?
 
Have you sent all of this to Vic? Ask him and give him the other particulars not mentioned here like price, and if he thinks an on site inspection from him is worth it. That should give you the answer you're looking for. The only way I would personally buy it would depend highly on the price because anything can be fixed, for a price AND time.
I'll call Vic tomorrow and ask - that's a good idea. The seller's asking price is pretty fair in my opinion, given the condition of this airplane
 
"vans has replacement canopy in stock"
Yes... but have you looked at the plans to see whats involved in installing one?
If anything like the 6, 7, 9 --- the canopy as shipped is way oversized, requires lots of trim and fit.

Just helped a guy with a 12 swap canopy, and found out he couldn't find anyone besides me to touch the job in S. California.
The aircraft is located in S. California. If you're interested in making an offer on this canopy job, please message me
 
This looks like a project not like an airplane. Now if you are looking for an airplane keep looking. If you are looking for a project I see nothing that couldn’t be fixed at a reasonable price if you can do the work yourself. If you have to hire someone I doubt it would be economical.

Not sure I can comment on all of your questions with the info given but here a couple:

- not uncommon for RV-8s to be nose heavy. Now it’s somewhere unusual to be out of the envelope but many 8 pilot prefer the CG a little bit more back as it makes the 8 easier to land. So is the weight really needed to be in the envelope or just nice to have? In either case you can adjust the cg in a safer way… .
- I would have no problems stop drilling the canopy again, adding some speed tape and flying the airplane home if the canopy was the only concern. Not sure why you think altitude would be an issue. Just be aware that properly fitting an 8 canopy is a lot of work. The way the canopy is usually installed it’s actually more work than the initial installation if a good fit is desired.
- Tire alignment and wheel pants clearance both need to be checked/fixed. All doable. For the flight home I would just leave the wheel pants off.

What is worrisome is that you have to ask on this forum. That makes me think that you probably underestimate the amount of work involved in this project.

Oliver
 
The possible missing center wing section bolts are covered by SB 12-08-14 and would be below the footwell floor panel and not visible in your photo. It also looks like the left tire must be wearing on the wheel pant.
I checked the logbooks, and it looks like this SB was complied with, fortunately. I guess on the RV-8, these bolts sit further out toward the wings and are not visible from inside the cabin
 
This looks like a project not like an airplane. Now if you are looking for an airplane keep looking. If you are looking for a project I see nothing that couldn’t be fixed at a reasonable price if you can do the work yourself. If you have to hire someone I doubt it would be economical.

Not sure I can comment on all of your questions with the info given but here a couple:

- not uncommon for RV-8s to be nose heavy. Now it’s somewhere unusual to be out of the envelope but many 8 pilot prefer the CG a little bit more back as it makes the 8 easier to land. So is the weight really needed to be in the envelope or just nice to have? In either case you can adjust the cg in a safer way… .
- I would have no problems stop drilling the canopy again, adding some speed tape and flying the airplane home if the canopy was the only concern. Not sure why you think altitude would be an issue. Just be aware that properly fitting an 8 canopy is a lot of work. The way the canopy is usually installed it’s actually more work than the initial installation if a good fit is desired.
- Tire alignment and wheel pants clearance both need to be checked/fixed. All doable. For the flight home I would just leave the wheel pants off.

What is worrisome is that you have to ask on this forum. That makes me think that you probably underestimate the amount of work involved in this project.

Oliver
Thanks for the wise words. I have no estimate about the amount of work involved. That's why I'm asking folks like you who are much smarter than I. I have been told that this website is an excellent (perhaps the best) place to learn about RVs.
 
Is that a crack in the sheet metal above the bolts? If it is I would contact Vans about structural concerns and see what they say.

Oliver
Good catch. You know, I've looked at that quite a few times, but for whatever reason, it never occurred to me that could be structural. It looks like a cover panel to me, but it wouldn't hurt to ask Van's.
 
Good catch. You know, I've looked at that quite a few times, but for whatever reason, it never occurred to me that could be structural. It looks like a cover panel to me, but it wouldn't hurt to ask Van's.
I am not certain either but it’s riveted to the carry through spar and all the way up the side of the fuselage which does make me wonder if it doesn’t help distribute the load between the spar and the fuselage. If in doubt ask the designer…. .

Oliver
 
I am not certain either but it’s riveted to the carry through spar and all the way up the side of the fuselage which does make me wonder if it doesn’t help distribute the load between the spar and the fuselage. If in doubt ask the designer…. .

Oliver
You're absolutely right - it is riveted, and it's probably a truss. I think that's the nail in the coffin on this airplane for me. Fixing/replacing stuff that's been riveted is where I draw the line. And because this is the left spar, I wonder if the aircraft has, in fact, suffered a hard langing, bent this truss, which in turn threw the left main gear out of alignment, which caused the uneven tire wear. :unsure:
 
Canopy replacement is a big deal.
These aren't Cessna 'drop in' parts.

Vans called for, and most people did, fiberglass over the windscreen to fuselage joint. Also, lots of people fiberglassed over the aft canopy skirt and/or side canopy joints.
So to start with ... a lot of cutting / grinding out fiberglass. So much for the paint.
Then Vans called for (and many people did) pop rivet the canopy to the canopy frame. Drill out all that. [Alternatively, it may be glued]

Then, now down to bare parts, the canopy (I assume the 8 is similar) comes as a single bubble, way oversize. Eventually you cut into two parts to make the windscreen and 'canopy'.
But first, cut, cut, cut the excess - until it sits onto the airframe. don't do the work in cool temps.
Then the 'big cut'. Burn incense...
Drill and fit. Now, we have to match drill to existing holes, more work than originally.
Shim the canopy and/or windscreen so that the joint matches reasonably well.
Then fix all of the stuff that we ripped up getting it out... fiberglass work, paint work...

No, I'm not idle enough to take it on. And the risk of breaking the new one...
Rough idea? Dunno, 150 hours?

Don't forget the price of shipping the canopy. It'll be truck freight.

Also, I agree with @spatsch - I don't think the canopy is a grounding issue. Do as he suggested to ferry etc.
 
I am not certain either but it’s riveted to the carry through spar and all the way up the side of the fuselage which does make me wonder if it doesn’t help distribute the load between the spar and the fuselage. If in doubt ask the designer…. .

Oliver

Really good catch Oliver. Also look up from there, above the 3 phillips screws. That sure looks like evidence of buckling in the metal, note how the paint broke away.
Between this and the indications that the nose wheel attachment impacted the firewall indicates a VERY hard landing.

If there's nothing in the logbooks, I'd assume there's a lot that might be hidden.

Prop strike w/o engine teardown?
Even some evidence that one wing was pulled (the strange paint loss under the spar bolts).

I'd be close to pulling the engine mount off for sandblasting, magneflux crack check... Pull the wings, main gear mounts...

Fixable, by the right guy, as a project.
 
I checked the logbooks, and it looks like this SB was complied with, fortunately. I guess on the RV-8, these bolts sit further out toward the wings and are not visible from inside the cabin
Here is an old photo showing the bolts addressed by the SB.
 

Attachments

  • Bolts.png
    Bolts.png
    1.8 MB · Views: 30
SquawkVFR- looks like you just joined the forum last month but perhaps you’ve been looking for an RV for a while. I think you are rushing into this plane after already realizing this is not the right one. What you’ve described is not what I would consider airworthy and not only is there a LOT of known work to do but what else are you going to find? You need to be patient here and walk away from this one. No offense to the current owner but this plane has been a bit neglected.

I have owned 7 airplanes including an RV-3, RV-4 and the RV-8 I fly now. You can’t rush into a sale just cause you want an RV right now, you will regret it it later. Yes it’s hard to find a good RV at a reasonable price but that’s exactly what you have to do. There might a low price on this one but it looks like a money pit to me. Listen to all the other guys that have posted a response, there’s a common thread here. I wouldn’t bother Vic or Vans anymore cause I think you’ve answered your own questions so keep looking. And lastly, you’re gonna have to pony up for a nice RV in today’s market.

So check in on this forum daily and keep an eye on Barnstormers, Trade-A-Plane etc and good luck with your search. You will eventually find the right one for you but you’re gonna have to be more patient.
 
Even at a good price, I’m afraid you will suffer buyers remorse if you buy it. I suspect the thrill of getting your first plane and what appears to be a good deal is as said in the Bible, your heart is leading you astray.

Beside what others have said…..

Everything I see indicates the logbooks has been pencil whipped for condition inspections. To me, that is the same as lost logbooks. Lost equates to a third of the value Is gone right off the top.

The prop has no wear on the leading edge. A plane of this age would not have what looks like a new prop. Why was it changed? Maybe an engine strike?

The above mentioned crack and distortion of the left aft center bulkhead indicate structural damage to me since it is riveted to the spar web. Is there any other distortion in the area? I would pull the wing root fairing off if you haven’t and look at the fuselage AND wing root for signs of damage or repair. Have you pulled the most inboard wing inspection panel and looked inboard? What force would it take to damage the bulkhead.

Since this is your first plane, it probably won’t be your last. Should you determine this plane has damage history, have you considered resale of a plane with damage history?

The fuel line servo hose is perilously close to the number 1 exhaust and is probably cooked. Think fire risk. There is a zip tie holding what I think the sniffle valve drain just below the exhaust. Wonder what other treasures are under the cowl.

Are you an A&P? You didn’t build it so you won’t have a repairman’s certificate to do more than owner maintenance unless you can have an A&P sign off on your work. If there is structural damage, good luck on that one if they didn’t do the work.

As Pop would say, is the risk worth the gain. With the help of a book and a non-builder, you were able to find these issues. Imagine what a good condition inspection might find from a reputable A&P and the wallet impact.

I know you are probably losing sleep over this because of the negative comments from others, me included. Hopefully everyone has contributed something useful to you.

I wish you the best on whatever you decide.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1591.png
    IMG_1591.png
    856.9 KB · Views: 10
I want to add my comment with regard to the amount of effort to replace the canopy. I damaged mine during the build so I had to reorder a new one from Vans. The cost including shipping was over $3000. The amount of work to fit the canopy to the frame took almost two months. This was doing it the second time. If you are doing it the first time, it will take a lot longer. Minor cracks are okay in my book but these cracks look strange and the stop drill was in the wrong place.
 
I am not certain either but it’s riveted to the carry through spar and all the way up the side of the fuselage which does make me wonder if it doesn’t help distribute the load between the spar and the fuselage. If in doubt ask the designer…. .

Oliver
RUN AWAY WITH GREAT HASTE! Have I mentioned that before?? (Back from my race. It kicked my butt which is what it is supposed to do!)

Here are more musings............

That crack is in a load-carrying bulkhead that the spar is attached to. It does have a cover plate that is nonstructural but is usually pull-riveted on. Why is this one screwed on? I see one stop-drilled hole peeking out from under that cover. What is under that cover?? Why is the new crack not stop-drilled? That is not something that would be cracked for no reason. It suggests to me (radical assumption on my part) that the wing moved, putting stress on that part, causing the crack. Someone said a wing was removed. Was it the port wing?

In the frontal view, it almost looks like the wings are different colors of white. It could be shadows but.......

On the (totally grossed-out) starboard gear fairing there are two rivets that are shop heads when they should be countersunk rivets. Why? And maybe a new rivet (unpainted) aft from that mess.

The (weather-cracked) retread is coming off the case in the tire view. What does the inside of the fairing look like? Has it been rubbing?

The fiberglass on the canopy is cracked in the track view and the canopy is not tracking correctly. Why is the screw missing from the track?

When the oil cooler finally parts company with the baffling, bad things can happen. It is COMPLETELY BROKEN OFF!!!!! 😳 😳 😳 It likely took quite a while for this to happen and was either not noticed before the failure or nothing was done to correct it. Poor maintenance and inspections, if they actually happened.

Why was the crack in the canopy not drilled at the END rather than the side of the crack? Why was the propagation of the crack not stop-drilled?

There is a HOLE burned in the aluminum above the exhaust stack. This did not happen overnight. WTH?

The nose gear attach bolt has smacked the skin behind it at LEAST once. That denotes a HARD landing. Is that why the port main gear tire is wearing in a different pattern than the starboard tire?

There have been multiple comments on the very small list of things you are concerned with. My fear would be there is a LAUNDRY LIST of other things you have not seen or told us about. As stated, this is a project and should not be flown anywhere but maybe disassembled and taken to a hangar and taken apart. Do you want to dive into that? This poor sole has been thoroughly neglected. It is a LOT to take on to make her right, if that is possible. Again: what is there that you/we are not seeing?

KEEP LOOKING! You will find a well-cared for airplane that will be calling your name. I'm not feeling it with this one.......:(
 
Here is an old photo showing the bolts addressed by the SB.
Reading the SB, I realized there's no way to inspect these without removing some of the paneling I had left in-place because the bolts don't go all the way through to the main gear mounting plate. This is a great pic, by the way. Thanks for sharing
 
SquawkVFR- looks like you just joined the forum last month but perhaps you’ve been looking for an RV for a while. I think you are rushing into this plane after already realizing this is not the right one. What you’ve described is not what I would consider airworthy and not only is there a LOT of known work to do but what else are you going to find? You need to be patient here and walk away from this one. No offense to the current owner but this plane has been a bit neglected.

I have owned 7 airplanes including an RV-3, RV-4 and the RV-8 I fly now. You can’t rush into a sale just cause you want an RV right now, you will regret it it later. Yes it’s hard to find a good RV at a reasonable price but that’s exactly what you have to do. There might a low price on this one but it looks like a money pit to me. Listen to all the other guys that have posted a response, there’s a common thread here. I wouldn’t bother Vic or Vans anymore cause I think you’ve answered your own questions so keep looking. And lastly, you’re gonna have to pony up for a nice RV in today’s market.

So check in on this forum daily and keep an eye on Barnstormers, Trade-A-Plane etc and good luck with your search. You will eventually find the right one for you but you’re gonna have to be more patient.
RUN AWAY WITH GREAT HASTE! Have I mentioned that before?? (Back from my race. It kicked my butt which is what it is supposed to do!)

Here are more musings............

That crack is in a load-carrying bulkhead that the spar is attached to. It does have a cover plate that is nonstructural but is usually pull-riveted on. Why is this one screwed on? I see one stop-drilled hole peeking out from under that cover. What is under that cover?? Why is the new crack not stop-drilled? That is not something that would be cracked for no reason. It suggests to me (radical assumption on my part) that the wing moved, putting stress on that part, causing the crack. Someone said a wing was removed. Was it the port wing?

In the frontal view, it almost looks like the wings are different colors of white. It could be shadows but.......

On the (totally grossed-out) starboard gear fairing there are two rivets that are shop heads when they should be countersunk rivets. Why? And maybe a new rivet (unpainted) aft from that mess.

The (weather-cracked) retread is coming off the case in the tire view. What does the inside of the fairing look like? Has it been rubbing?

The fiberglass on the canopy is cracked in the track view and the canopy is not tracking correctly. Why is the screw missing from the track?

When the oil cooler finally parts company with the baffling, bad things can happen. It is COMPLETELY BROKEN OFF!!!!! 😳 😳 😳 It likely took quite a while for this to happen and was either not noticed before the failure or nothing was done to correct it. Poor maintenance and inspections, if they actually happened.

Why was the crack in the canopy not drilled at the END rather than the side of the crack? Why was the propagation of the crack not stop-drilled?

There is a HOLE burned in the aluminum above the exhaust stack. This did not happen overnight. WTH?

The nose gear attach bolt has smacked the skin behind it at LEAST once. That denotes a HARD landing. Is that why the port main gear tire is wearing in a different pattern than the starboard tire?

There have been multiple comments on the very small list of things you are concerned with. My fear would be there is a LAUNDRY LIST of other things you have not seen or told us about. As stated, this is a project and should not be flown anywhere but maybe disassembled and taken to a hangar and taken apart. Do you want to dive into that? This poor sole has been thoroughly neglected. It is a LOT to take on to make her right, if that is possible. Again: what is there that you/we are not seeing?

KEEP LOOKING! You will find a well-cared for airplane that will be calling your name. I'm not feeling it with this one.......:(
Yes, sir. And I do appreciate the wise words. I'm old enough now to know to learn from others' mistakes and to give heavy consideration to the advice of those who are more experienced than me. That's why I'm so grateful for the members of this forum. Y'all are an invaluable resource, and I appreciate you taking the time to entertain my novice inquiry.
 
Back
Top