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Paint Blisters/Fuel Tank Rivets

The planes may fly well with blisters, but it still sucks. It doesnt make it better or right. Of the RV's I have looked at, a lot more than 1% have blisters.
My QB proseal had gone sticky on one wing root. That same wing blistered like crazy.
I personally think [and would put money on it] that either the proseal was badly mixed or the batch was bad. A airline engineer who saw it said the proseal was bad. I wiped what I could off with MEK [it came of easily] and redid the outside fay seal. It has sprung a leak once again so I redid a small area at the spar side.
I have photos to prove the mess. You would be blown away at how bad it looked. Maybe one day Ill fiqure how to post pics. Are there instructions on this site how to ?
 
My QB proseal had gone sticky on one wing root. That same wing blistered like crazy. I personally think [and would put money on it] that either the proseal was badly mixed or the batch was bad. A airline engineer who saw it said the proseal was bad. I wiped what I could off with MEK [it came of easily] and redid the outside fay seal. It has sprung a leak once again so I redid a small area at the spar side.

EJ, we now have a direct line into Flamemaster. Obviously your sealant did not cure; it should not wipe off with MEK. The question is why. If you would like them to look at this sealant problem, well, no problem. They may want a sample.

Interesting case; I don't recall another blister report with clear indications of uncured sealant.

Ok, you have obvious fuel leaks as well as blisters. Can you relate more detail? Leak locations, blister locations, blisters opened for examination...anything at all. Photos are good too.

EDIT: These just in from EJ, by email. Wow....





 
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Speaking of research....

The mystery "oily substance" applied to QB components is ordinary WD-40. I've reviewed the subject with Ken at Flamemaster. The MSDS says it contains the following hydrocarbons:

64742-47-8 - Deodorized kerosene
64742-88-7 - Straight run white spirit (Stoddard Solvent)
64742-88-9 - Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy
64742-65-0 - Lube Oil

...and a proprietary surfactant (wetting agent).

Kens says the hydrocarbons would not cause a deterioration or reversion of the sealant material. The surfactant and any possible activity is unknown.

Common sense says wicking action would place WD-40 under fastener heads and inside open voids. The application of surfactant and hydrocarbons means we must clean throughly prior to paint, and even then we probably don't remove it all from the hidden spaces.

However, the above would be true for the entire airframe, not just tanks. One could argue tank rivets are the least likely to hide WD-40; they're the ones with seal material under the heads.

Probably not an issue, and no point in debating the matter right now anyway. The real purpose of identifying the oily stuff is to catalog any possible chemical traces which may show up in later analysis.


WD-40 was not allowed at the airlines or even allowed in the Flamable locker.. I asked once and they said there was someting about the chemical properties of it and that was good enough for me. We used Aerokroil?
 
WD-40 was not allowed at the airlines or even allowed in the Flamable locker.. I asked once and they said there was someting about the chemical properties of it and that was good enough for me. We used Aerokroil?


Are you in a position to make a phone call or a visit, and nail down the specific reason why it was banned?
 
I've got no skin in this, but you guys have really drawn me in to this mystery. I'm excitedly waiting for the chemists to do their thing.
Also, I think it's worth noting that fuel does very little to modern paint, but will cut right through most primers. The akzo stuff holds up to it, but I found it would cut through cured dp50.
 
It has been so long and and half way across the country.

! jave found other posts on the internet though.

Feb 9th, 2009, 08:16 PM #2
steve299
Warming The Wheels
Ride: 2008 Sportster XL883c




Join Date: Dec 16th, 2008
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 132
Re: The Magic of WD-40

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be real careful with WD40. We used to use it on chrome aircraft struts to clean them until the chrome started delaminating. The engineers researched and told us not to use wd40 anymore that it was the cause of the drome breaking down.
 
I found this also
http://whitts.alioth.net/Page91PTS Engine and Airframe Paperwork.htm

I scrolled down and found this!

WD-40 and Cleaning

The use of WD-40 is not recommended on aircraft. It is not recommended because only a light lubricant is left after the solvents evaporate. Use Kroil or ACF-50 available through aircraft parts houses. The use of steam cleaning and pressure washers on aircraft is not good practice since lubrication points are not sealed. Open bushes, pivot points must be dismantled to grease. Pressure washes flush out the oil and will wet the interior making it subject to corrosion.
 
EJ, we now have a direct line into Flamemaster. Obviously your sealant did not cure; it should not wipe off with MEK. The question is why. If you would like them to look at this sealant problem, well, no problem. They may want a sample.

Interesting case; I don't recall another blister report with clear indications of uncured sealant.

Ok, you have obvious fuel leaks as well as blisters. Can you relate more detail? Leak locations, blister locations, blisters opened for examination...anything at all. Photos are good too.



One point to consider in this case that may or may not be relevant...Tank sealant will soften and then become mushy with extended exposure to wet fuel with an oxygen source (being on the exterior of the tank) such as from a constant seep from a leaking tank access cover.
You can confirm this with flame master.

Just mentioning it since if there was an active leak at the root end of the tank related to a breach in the cover seal or fuel level sender, it can produce the exact result shown in the photos with enough exposure.
 
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My QB proseal had gone sticky on one wing root. That same wing blistered like crazy....I personally think and would put money on it that either the proseal was badly mixed or the batch was bad....
As far as I've been made aware, yours is the first tank to exhibit what appears to be uncured proseal. Is that an isolated local problem or does the softness extend to other areas of the tank? For instance, can you easily dissolve the cured sealant on the opposite side of the tank with MEK? If so, it is likely your problems are more extensive than a series of mere blisters.

Speculation on my part, but the possibility does exist that in your particular (and seemingly unique) case, the sealant was not thoroughly mixed and/or the operator mixed an improper ratio of A to B. That possibility seems (to me) more likely than sealant being of defective manufacture. Admittedly, I am opining like everybody else is at this point but as more information comes out it becomes increasingly difficult to dismiss fuel or fuel vapors as THE supporting actor in this little play. Even old proseal if properly stored and correctly mixed several YEARS past its expiration date will cure adequately. I have done just that many, many times in non-fuel applications.

My concern is that if that proseal is soft in other areas throughout the inside of the tank, leaks and blisters can only get worse over time. When you say "that wing blistered like crazy".....define crazy. How many blisters? Top and bottom? One end of the tank to the other? If the blistering is indeed extensive and aided and abetted by defective proseal, your tanks may suffer from more than a mere "cosmetic" problem. I have to think that deteriorating proseal collecting inside the tanks *may* or *can* effect flight safety at some point.

I am very interested in how extensive your blistering problem is and if sealant softness exists elsewhere on your fuel tanks. Nothing tells the story better than photographs. If you cannot figure out how to post pictures, I can in addition to Dan H. post any pics if you forward them to me.
 
My QB proseal had gone sticky on one wing root. That same wing blistered like crazy.
I personally think [and would put money on it] that either the proseal was badly mixed or the batch was bad. A airline engineer who saw it said the proseal was bad. I wiped what I could off with MEK [it came of easily] and redid the outside fay seal. It has sprung a leak once again so I redid a small area at the spar side.
I have photos to prove the mess. You would be blown away at how bad it looked. Maybe one day Ill fiqure how to post pics. Are there instructions on this site how to ?

Have you checked out the fuel filter lately???

I would suggest watching for any evidence of the softened material going into the fuel system down stream from the tank.
 
One point to consider in this case that may or may not be relevant...Tank sealant will soften and then become mushy with extended exposer to wet fuel with an oxygen source (being on the exterior of the tank) such as from a constant seep from a leaking tank access cover.
You can confirm this with flame master.

Just mentioning it since if there was an active leak at the root end of teh tank related to a breach in the cover seal of fuel level sender, it can produce the exact result shown in the photos with enough exposure.


I wouldn't think that exposure to wet fuel would cause tank sealant to do what we are seeing in the picture but maybe so...

The reason I say hesitate to agree is that is one of the tests that I see mentioned in product technical data sheets is to evaluate the sealant to specification compliance, by soaking a "test piece" (test piece = wire mesh that has been bonded with sealant to an aluminum substrate) in a mixture of simulated fuel (JRF II, type I) and 3% aqueous sodium chloride solution.

The test piece stays in this challenge fluid for a period of 7 days at 140F. At the end of 7 days, the sample is taken out and the wire mesh is hooked up to a device to measure the force required to peel it away from the aluminum substrate at a 180 degree angle, measured in pounds of force per linear inch. PPG's Proseal 890 B specification indicates it takes 39 pounds to peel the wire mesh away from the aluminum substrate after a 7 day soak in the above challenge fluid.

Unfortunately, there is no peel strength given for CS3204B, although it states that CS3204 meets AMS-S 8802, which is supposed to be derived from the old MIL-S 8802F. I would imagine that CS3204 should meet the minimum MIL-S 8802F specification which is listed as 20 pounds minimum under the same exposure.

Perhaps Flamemaster can give us the peel strength data for both anodized and alclad aluminum pieces in the challenge fluid as well as comment on the characteristics of the picture. That picture looks really bad, and I'd sure as heck not fly anywhere with that going on.
 
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Tank sealant will soften and then become mushy with extended exposure to wet fuel with an oxygen source (being on the exterior of the tank) such as from a constant seep from a leaking tank access cover.
You can confirm this with flame master.

The photos went to Ken this AM before posting here. We'll see what he says. I say the tank headspace has the same % O2 as outside.

POSTSCRIPT Just talked to Ken at Flamemaster. His opinion, based on EJ's photos, is that we're looking a a pure case of uncured sealant, not reversion or other chemical failure.

As for sealant failure due to "fuel with an oxygen source"....there is some basis in history dating from the bad old days of lead-cured sealant. Lead-cured sealants got a coat of Buna-N for protection. Those days are long gone, but apparently stories still circulate.

Not applicable to AMS-S-8802 sealants. The only common chemical with any effect is methylene chloride stripper.

Dave - check your hotmail account for the latest CS3204 qual test report.
 
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I'd say that the blob between your fingers would stop an engine if it got into the fuel system. There is quite a lot of sealant inside the tanks and the potential for such a blob to get loose is great. No offense, but you wouldn't get me to fly in that plane until the tanks were checked out completely.
 
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As for sealant failure due to "fuel with an oxygen source"....there is some basis in history dating from the bad old days of lead-cured sealant. Lead-cured sealants got a coat of Buna-N for protection. Those days are long gone, but apparently stories still circulate.

Not applicable to AMS-S-8802 sealants. The only common chemical with any effect is methylene chloride stripper.

Dave - check your hotmail account for the latest CS3204 qual test report.

Ok...
I can't provide the name of a person at flame master that provided the info but that is where it came from. I was not base on urban legend. So it seems that either someone there is providing tech. info and they don't know what they are talking about, or the person you talked too doesn't know.

Dan, I only provided info that had been provided by someone at Flame master in the context of the sealant currently supplied and used by Van's. Just trying to provide valid info in the quest for answers. I assumed info provided by the manufacturer was better than a hunch such as "I don't think the difference in oxygen between inside to outside would be a factor" but it looks like it's not.
I still find it interesting that in the one photo it looks like the fuel level sender has been removed for some reason (a leak perhaps?). It has what appears to possibly be a fuel stain below the opening for the fuel sender? Not definitive because it is not a photo with a great level of detail to know for sure (on my monitor at least).
 
Here is a full review on affected tank,

The tank close out was leaking and the fuel had run over the proseal at the bottom of the outer rib. The proseal had gone totally soft in this area as the pictures show. At the front top and back it was also softish in that MEK could dissolve the outer layer with a wipe, but not as soft as the pics show. There may be some truth to the oxygen softening the proseal in the presence of avgas. But this bad ? Is it possible ?

The cover was removed and the proseal inside the tank [outer rib] was not of the same consistency ,feel or wipe-ability as the one outside .It seemed OK from a non scientific point of view. This tells me the outside seal was possibly of another batch.

The fuel filter has been checked several times since the pic and there is not contamination. So the severe problem appears to be only the outside.
But here is the snag. I have never built tanks , and don't know how many times proseal must be mixed in the process. Are there any other bad batches? And this does not pertain only to my tanks. What about all the others out there? Surely the fellow/s who mixed the proseal on my tanks
has worked on other tanks too?

There were 2 fuel leaks on this tank. One on the top rear rivet line and one on bottom rear rivet line. After some time say 6 months [if I recall] a blue streak developed from these 2 rivets. I drilled them out , reprosealed and fitted 2 cherrymax rivets. No more leaks.

As far as blisters were concerned, I never took photos or counted how many, but here is what I recall;
There were none on the bottom of the tank. The top had many a blister, say 20 or more. There were not huge as I would prick them the moment they would start. In many cases the paint would come off leaving some rivet exposed. The I touched up with a fine artist brush making sure not to close the rivet seal to the skin. This stopped further blistering.

Things have quietened down on that tank . Blistering has stopped .
The soft proseal was replaced.
But no one can tell me for sure why all these problems with this tank?

The other side had a few blisters, say 5. No leaks and no soft outside proseal. Different builders in the QB facility? Different batches of proseal?
 
Please forgive what may be a stupid question, but if fuel vapors under pressure are what are creating the blisters, couldn't I just pop the first one to avoid more?

......we have popped many, and it does not stop them from coming..Ive popped em early, squeegied em down in the hot sun when everything is flexible. Bubble gone..Month later, bubble back.
.....As far as blisters were concerned.....I would prick them the moment they would start...I touched up with a fine artist brush making sure not to close the rivet seal to the skin. This stopped further blistering.
Review the three recent quotes pulled from posts to this thread.

Interestingly, EJ commented he pricked the paint blisters, did a touch-up around the holes and the blisters stopped growing....not Kahuna's experience with the blisters but there is a fundamental difference in how each builder decided to approach the problem. EJ intentionally did not allow the paint to come back together, thus providing a relief hole for escaping vapor to vent. Kahuna on the other hand essentially laid the blisters back down which could allow fuel vapor to soften and essentially re weld the paint blister back together...in effect sealing the blister making it air tight again. Conceivably, this could over time allow fuel vapor constantly originating from within the fuel tank to regenerate the blisters and we know in Kahuna's case those blisters did in fact redevelop a month later.

Here is another interesting comment from EJ:

There were 2 fuel leaks on this tank. One on the top rear rivet line and one on bottom rear rivet line. After some time say 6 months [if I recall] a blue streak developed from these 2 rivets. I drilled them out , reprosealed and fitted 2 cherrymax rivets. No more leaks.

If I read this right, EJ may have had leaking rivets along the rear baffle and remember, those rivets are OUTSIDE the pressure boundary. If a rivet can leave a visible blue streak via a defective fay seal on the rear baffle, what makes anyone think fuel vapor cannot find its way though tiny voids in that same defective fay seal...voids so small it would take a magnifying glass to visually detect? If the eerily similar experience described in the Pazmany newsletter is any indication, a routine pressure test could not possibly detect such gradual losses anyway:

http://www.pazmany.com/newsletters/PL-1_and_2/64.pdf

In one way or another, every scenario I come up with consistently links the obvious; the possibility (probability) of fuel or vapor working its magic in conjunction with the misapplication of proseal.

I am hoping someone out there has submitted samples for scientific testing by now. Anyone?
 
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Don't sweat it Scott. Can you share why you addressed the issue with Flamemaster?

A builder had a long term leak located at the access cover. Sealant did just as shown in the photos.
Flame master was asked what they thought...they said it was normal when sealant has extended exposure to fuel on the outside of a tank with oxygen and evaporation.

From EJ's description it sounds like it is the same scenario.
 
Scott, did you personally call Flamemaster, or did you get this story via another party who said they called?
 
Scott, did you personally call Flamemaster, or did you get this story via another party who said they called?

Another party who personally told me what he was told by the person he spoke with at flamemaster. I'm not sure why that would matter. Particularly since it seems to jive with the scenario that AJ has detailed.
 
Thank you Scott. I understand.

Without disrespect to anyone, we should expect certain realities. It is the way the world works. Remember "trust but verify"?

This particular technical point should be easy to check. I've already contacted Ken Chenard at Flamemaster, but you won't bother me at all if you confirm for yourself, with Ken or another company contact. I'm only interested in truth.

You could call one of the other sealant manufacturers, as all AMS-S-8802 sealants are likely very similar (and they probably check each other's formulations, another reality).

You could set up a simple experiment. I'd suggest three pickle jars, one with properly mixed sealant, one with 1/2 the specified quantity of Part B, and one with 1/4. Give the samples a week to observe the degree of cure. Then place each in an individual jar, add 1/8" of avgas (leaving lots of headspace oxygen), cap 'em and give them another week. Anyone with sealant in hand care to volunteer?

We can also consider the basic polymer chemistry. I'm not a chemist; perhaps some of our trained members can comment. I'm told the liquid pre-polymer molecules each contain 2 or 3 SH-groups (sulfur-hydrogen). The SH groups in each molecule react in the presence of a peroxide (contains oxygen), split out water and form an S-S bond (sulfur-sulfur), producing the chain extension or crosslinking. The black curing agent (catalyst-accelerator) is manganese dioxide (MnO/2). Note the role of oxygen.

Anyone care to comment on the likelyhood of this bond reverting back to goo? I'm also curious about the generation of water as a byproduct of cure....mystery liquids being of interest here.
 
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Dan,

Consider that softening of the proseal or other equivalent material could be caused by the continuous evaporation of fuel from the material surface possibly leaving behind a higher concentration of a substance found in the fuel. Sealing the jar wouldn't show the same result as you would have by continual wetting of the material as it is evaporated.

Brad
 
Ok, I counted the blisters on the "bad" tanks. About 60 in total
The other wing only had about 8 blisters.
Just a question about oxygen and prc, If it does soften the sealant howcome the sealant at the top of the rib which was not subject to a leak , was also soft and wipeable? Must admit the area under the cover was a bit more gooey.
Not saying that oxygen would not cause this, but why is it also prone in areas that didnt have a leak ? Could the problem be exagerated by bad prc/mix?
Also why is this the tank with leaking rivets and 60plus blisters?
The other tank does not display the same characteristics.

Somehow i wonder if various factors didnt combine to cause all the problems with this tank.
 
I will be at COPPERSTATE Fly-In (before, during, and after). If you're going to be there and have wet blisters but no way to collect a sample drop me a PM. I'll bring stuff to give you to collect a sample.

I've got no blisters myself (also no fuel in the tanks yet or paint) but would like to see an answer to this.
 
Anyone care to comment on the likelyhood of this bond reverting back to goo?

Dan, high enough peroxide concentration in the fuel will deteriorate polysulfide type sealant. I suspect that ozone would as well. They are both powerful oxidizers. Of course, regular old air is not in the same league, not even close.

See: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA087267&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

In the strongest (10 meq.) peroxide concentration, there was serious degradation. This concentration also degraded neoprene. The study also implicated fuel acid, a result of the breakdown of the peroxide. Note that the sudy was done with JP5, not avgas.

From a practical standpoint, I have to think that if gasoline + air equals destruction of pro-seal, we'd see a lot more goo at the top of old gas tanks. As the study said, concerning MIL-S-8802 sealants: "These tank sealants are intended to provide very long service and are difficult to repair."
 
Brad, I noticed the evaporation-concentration angle in Scott's proposal. Hopefully we'll learn more about that theory in the near future. The jar experiment was intended to explore the effect of fuel on sealant mixed in improper proportion. My fault, poor presentation.

Ted, good find. Note the date, 1980. Made me curious, so I did some reading. Looks like the report had some effect; this is a note regarding current jet fuel:

Antioxidants - Hydroprocessing of aviation fuels removes naturally occurring antioxidants that provide protection from peroxidation. Peroxides
are known to attack elastomers causing embrittlement while also contributing to gum and particulate formation. The use of antioxidants effectively prevents peroxidation from occurring and under JFSCL and Def Stan 91-91, 17 to 24 mg/L of an approved antioxidant must be added to the proportion of the fuel blend that has been hydroprocessed.


http://www.exxonmobil.com/AviationGlobal/Files/WorldJetFuelSpecifications2005.pdf

Avgas also contains a lot of antioxidant, mostly for storage stability.

Everybody realize Ted's point is "strong oxidants can damage sealant", which is surely correct. I offer the above information before somebody goes off on a bad fuel goose chase. So far I'm only aware of one possible fuel culprit, methanol. Two of our blistered brothers have used auto fuel (David and Bill), so fuel alcohol was of interest. Ken says ethanol hasn't been a big problem, but methanol will fail sealant. I think it also eats aluminum, so I'm guessing David or Bill may have tanked some ethanol blend but probably not methanol. Anybody know for sure if methanol blends are sold in Missouri or Georgia? And EJ, what have you been burning?
 
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Dan, high enough peroxide concentration in the fuel will deteriorate polysulfide type sealant.

See: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA087267&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

In the strongest (10 meq.) peroxide concentration, there was serious degradation.

From a practical standpoint, I have to think that if gasoline + air equals destruction of pro-seal, we'd see a lot more goo at the top of old gas tanks. As the study said, concerning MIL-S-8802 sealants: "These tank sealants are intended to provide very long service and are difficult to repair."

Ted,
Great find. What the paper is confirming is a mechanism for the breaking of previously crosslinked polymer linkages, and to Dan's point, proof that such a mechanism exists. Ted I know the paper specifically discusses JP5, but I'll make the case that the same potential exists in avgas. I've copied two relevant passages out of the paper to form the hypothesis.

This degradation is attributed to a reversion effect caused by polymer chain and/or crosslink scission. Polysulfide polymers are susceptible to attack by acid catalyzed hydrolysis at the backbone formal linkage. Another polysulfide degradation route is by direct oxidation at the formal linkage but this usually occurs at temperatures around 300 T. The polysulfides are generally considered to have good oxidation resistance at temperatures below 200'F. They are also cured by inorganic and organic oxidizing agents. From the available data it is uncertain whether catalyzed oxidation or acid catalyzed hydrolysis at the formal linkage is the primary degradation process. The latter mechanism is favored.


MIL-S-8802 elastomeric polysulfide sealants, particularly manganese dioxide cured type, are prone to severe degradation in 10 meq. peroxide fuel (1000-1350 hrs.) where the fuel acid number exceeds normal limits. It is uncertain whether a catalyzed direct oxidation or an acidic hydrolysis mechanism is responsible. The latter mode is believed more likely to occur. Elevated fuel acid numbers are believed due to peroxide decomposition by-products possibly present in the original prepared JP-5/peroxide concentrate and additionally accumulated in the stagnant immersion media during the test phase. Data on the effects of lower peroxide concentrations and acid numbers is needed to further assess damage potential with MIL-S-8802 sealants.

With evidence of the effects of high PV given above, the charge is made that avgas could exhibit the same tendency should it have elevated PV and acid value (AV) numbers or given the right mechanism for PV / AV formation. If such conditions exist, polysulfide sealants, particularly those that are cured with manganese dioxide (which is probably the most commonly used sealant in RV construction), are prone to the effects as seen in the pictures given several posts ago. So the question is, does avgas have a tendency to have high PV and subsequently high AV?

One potential route for avgas to have high PV would be the inadvertent blending of small quantities of jet fuel with avgas. Perhaps in the transferring process at the refinery, or perhaps in the transportation of both fuels, common pipes and or hoses would contain enough residual jet fuel to contaminate avgas, giving it the materials it needs to start forming PV and AV. My thinking is that PV contamination by this route isn't likely, but its a possibility.

The second route would be the formation of PV's in the avgas storage tank itself. This possibility is discussed below.

Storage Stability
Avgas instability involves multi-step reactions, some of which are oxidation reactions. Hydroperoxides and peroxides are the initial reaction products. These products remain dissolved in the fuel but may attack and shorten the life of some fuel system elastomers. Additional reactions result in the formation of soluble gums and insoluble particulates. These products may clog fuel filters and deposit on the walls of aircraft fuel systems, restricting flow in small-diameter passageways. Instability of avgas during storage is generally not a problem because of the way the fuel is manufactured (see page 66), and most fuel is used within a few months of its manufacture. Storage stability can be an issue at locations where fuel is stored for occasional or emergency use. Avgas that has been properly manufactured, stored, and handled should remain stable for at least one
year. Avgas subjected to longer storage or to improper storage or handling should be tested to be sure it meets all applicable specification requirements before use. (pg 50, Cheveron Aviation Fuels Technical Review FTR-3, 2006)


I take away from Chevrons explanation that, it shouldn't be a problem because fuel is used relatively quickly, but , the potential is there should the fuel be abused or mishandled. What Cheveron does verify is that avgas is susceptible to oxidation reactions that can cause PV formation. This leads into the third mechanism of PV and AV formation and its already been touched on several posts back...that is that a long term, slow fuel leak will cause the damage we've seen in the picture.

If Chevrons explanation is true, then fuel leaking from a tank, over a period of time would have high PV...not in the tank, but on the outer surface where the fuel is actively exposed to fresh oxygen. Obviously, oxidation reactions need...oxygen. That exposure occurs on the surface of the fuel wetted tanks. The fuel dribbling down on the outside of a leaking tank is thin, thin enough and spread out to have a very high surface area perfect for oxygen exposure. Over time, this oxidation reaction forms peroxides and given enough time, acids, which we now know have the ability to degrade polysulfide based sealants. Peroxides tend to be heavier than the base component from which the are formed, which means that as avgas is constantly dripping and wetting the surface, and as that avgas is evaporated away, it leaves behind peroxides that will stay in intimate contact with, you guessed it, polysulfide tank sealants. The reason you don't see (or shouldn't see) softening of the sealant inside the tank is that the residual oxygen levels inside a fuel tank are much lower than in free air. This coupled with fact that as you're out flying about, avgas is actively washing away any peroxides that might have formed and the engine consumes them, hence they never have a chance to build up inside the tank like they would on the outer surface of a fuel leaking tank.

Of course this is one possible explainable of the ONE case that we just happen to have photographic proof of, and its only a theory on how this kind of damage could be occurring.

Dan, you've mentioned mogas, and I was going to do a bit more research on that part of the PV equation before I commented, but I do believe that mogas is heavily "doped" with various goodies that could easily oxidize and form PV's and AV's. Its clear that the mechanism (PV / AV degradation) is a concern. Mogas, and the potential for it to have ethanol in it, (ethanol tends to be weakly acidic) significantly increases the chance to have PV and AV in enough concentration to cause problems. In an actively flying RV, this might not be a problem, but what about those planes that don't fly often that have mogas in the tanks? Interesting thought, and your point about bad fuel is correct. Its not bad fuel causing the problem, its the potential for any particular fuel to form peroxides and acids that is concerning.
 
Dan,
I have only used Avgas 100LL . But remember this only happened on the RHS tank. So if it was bad Avgas both should be badly affected?
 
Reality Check

.....I have never built tanks , and don't know how many times proseal must be mixed in the process......The other side had a few blisters, say 5. No leaks and no soft outside proseal. Different builders in the QB facility? Different batches of proseal?

.....Also why is this the tank with leaking rivets and 60plus blisters? The other tank does not display the same characteristics......

.... have only used Avgas 100LL . But remember this only happened on the RHS tank. So if it was bad Avgas both should be badly affected?
EJ

You pretty much answered your own questions. I don't know how the foreign QB production facility is set up but I do know something about how domestic aircraft production works. You ask why do things happen in one tank but not the other? Well in the real world, it is extremely unlikely any given worker, without help is going to start and finish a pair of fuel tanks by himself and do all that work in one shift! Unfinished work might be passed off to someone on the next shift or if there is no next shift, the worker picks up where he left off the next time he passes through the factory gates. It is also highly likely that fuel tanks are assembled using MULTIPLE batches of proseal. As any standard kit builder knows, among the first fuel tank jobs to be completed are the fuel flange, drain fitting and stiffeners. Only after that work is completed....and that work is substantial....does work proceed to installing all the ribs. Finally, the rear baffle is installed. You'd have to install a rear baffle yourself to understand how tricky that is to assure a good fay seal remains intact when you slide the baffle into place. The reason those rear baffle countersinks are machined is because getting that tight fitting baffle past series of dimples would be "problematic" at best. So basically, there are three major phases of assembly in fuel tank construction and each phase will likely require a fresh batch of proseal. A worker can only work on one fuel tank at a time. Someone might be assigned to work on the left tank and someone else assigned the right tank. Those two workers may team up at times to shoot rivets. Who knows how many workers...and believe me...every worker comes to the table gifted with a certain level of skill and craftsmanship...have a hand in assembling any given set of fuel tanks. Ask anybody who has ever hired people. We used to have a saying where I worked.....for every ten workers the company employed, 7 weren't worth a darn, 2 made money for the company and 1 was outstanding.

Now I am not saying that is the way things are where your tanks were assembled but labor is labor, production practices are production practices and people are people no matter if you build the fuel tanks yourself or you hire someone else to do the work for you.
 
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Sometimes when to many peope are involved in a project you get into Analysis Paralysis. Analysis Paralysis is where you can?t make any forward progress because you bog yourself down in details, tweaking, brainstorming, research and anything but just getting on with it. You need to pull them tanks apart or live with it.
 
Dan,
I have only used Avgas 100LL . But remember this only happened on the RHS tank. So if it was bad Avgas both should be badly affected?

The mechanism of degradation that Ted pointed us to earlier, explains one additional failure mode, given certain conditions. Why I personally found it interesting was the premise made earlier, that leaking fuel on the outside of tanks, (in constant exposure to air and with sealant), could cause the sealant to soften and degrade over time. Based on what I know of oxidation chemistry from my regular job and given the evidence presented by Ted from the paper, I find this very specific failure mode entirely believable. This specific scenario could explain the soft sealant on the outside of your tank, however much more evidence would be required to prove that this is the route of failure that would cause blistering on your tank. I think it difficult to expect that bad fuel would be the cause of all of the blister scenarios, and I think Dan even cautioned against this. Ricks comments on application and preparation mode failures, would be a much more likely scenario, given how the tanks are actually put together.
 
Sometimes when to many peope are involved in a project you get into Analysis Paralysis. Analysis Paralysis is where you can?t make any forward progress because you bog yourself down in details, tweaking, brainstorming, research and anything but just getting on with it. You need to pull them tanks apart or live with it.

Its not analysis paralysis...its a lack of analysis that is causing paralysis. Up to this point, its all been opinions, speculation and morning coffee talk...not that there is anything wrong with that.

IMHO, it would be foolish to accept that pulling the tanks apart (to redo them) or living with the problem is going to solve anything, other than getting something done. Redoing the tanks, with the potential to make the same unknown mistake (because we've not proven the nature of the problem adequately) would be a bad choice. Just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it. :)
 
I'm glad I read this thread..

one conclusion:

1. I'm going with polished aluminum in and around the tank area of my SB -8.
 
"Analysis Paralysis".....I like it.

Let's keep this investigation focused. I had a note the other day suggesting EJ's gooey end rib sealant would become a distracting sideshow....and it certainly has the potential. It is interesting and we'll surely learn something, but it is not a blister. It did appear in concert with blisters, so look for the link.

A word on theories. Do your best to think it through. Consider how you might prove or disprove your theory by experiment, or by reference to reliable sources. And please, do the work. I do not wish to damp enthusiasm or contribution, but lobbing in a theory blaming kryptonite and then hiding under the bed isn't going to move this along.

Don't forget the KIS principle. There's a huge difference between possible and likely.

Last, one good measurement is better than a mass of speculation. We still don't have a liquid or gas sample from a blister. I know a few guys are working on it, and more could be. It's important, so let's not let relax the effort.

.....we now return to your regular programming ;)
 
WD-40!

Two questions come to mind: 1) how many with leaking SB tanks did not solvent clean their rivets before installing them, and 2) how many use WD-40 or similar to lubricate their clecos?

Rivet forging machines are high-speed, lubricated mechanisms that impart trace amounts of slime on each rivet. Without a good solvent wash & dry that lubricant makes an excellent parting agent against the sealant, not to mention the possibility of a chemical (blistering) reaction with fuel, thus a vapor/fuel leak.

If the clecos are getting lubricated with WD-40 or similar they are imparting trace amounts of lubricant into the holes and surrounding fay surface as we build. If true, it makes even more sense that the close out bulkhead gets lots of blisters first because the clecos got cleaned and lubricated after fabricating the forward part of the tank?

These are two subtle process controls that could be easily overlooked, especially at the QB facility (BTW, I'm beginning to envision that place as a dirt floor, palm leaf-roofed enterprise!).

Perhaps WD-40 should be included in a contaminant test?
 
Smoking Gun?

I refer interested parties to review this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=369934#post369934

imnpzb.jpg
 
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My RV-9A fuel tank rivet seepage

I have been following this thread for a LONG time. I have slow-build tanks. You can see in this photo where I have scuffed the inside of the RIGHT fuel tank before dimpling the skins. I soaked all my rivets in a baby food jar of methyl ethyl ketone (MEK). I would pour the rivets into a strainer after the soaking, then let them dry on clean paper towels. I used a pair of hemostats to dip each rivet into the sealant when the riveting process began. The inside of the fuel tank skins were cleaned with MEK just before applying the sealant and riveting them together.

DSCF0102.jpg


These photos were taken April 15 & 16, 2003. This is the LEFT fuel tank that has some fuel seepage on only ONE rivet, and three others with blue tint around them under the paint. The airplane has epoxy primer on it before a pearl white coat of paint, followed with clear coat. My right wing tank built second has NO leaks at all. I am sure my problem is just not enough ProSeal being applied in the LEFT tank during assembly.
DSCF0123.jpg


I did not put enough sealant BETWEEN the rib and the tank skin on the first tank I built. It is visible in this photo at the rib FLUTE where there is not enough sealant to fill the gap between the rib and skin at the flute location. The rivet with the worst seepage is adjacent to that flute in the rib.
DSCF0124.jpg


You can see the outboard rib has a liberal covering of sealant on all the rivets and between the skin and the rib. If I had done that on the other ribs, there would not be a blue stain to be found on this fuel tank. From the first flight on June 9, 2005, it took about a year and a half before I noticed the fuel stains. The RIGHT fuel tank is perfect, but then I built it second and my skills had improved by then. I did not take a single photo showing the inside of the RIGHT fuel tank during sealing and riveting.
DSCF0125.JPG


All my leaks are on rib rivets, not stiffener rivets. There are no leaks on the top side of the tanks or the rear baffle plates, just on the bottom.

I did not lube my clecoes, but they did need an MEK soaking after the tanks were completed. IF my one rivet ever starts to drip fuel, I will pump the tank dry and try the green Loctite on it with the tank under a slight vacuum pressure. For now, I just check it from time to time when I am cleaning bugs off the wings.
 
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This is a most interesting thread. I have seen N2PRISE'S plane and it is well built and after seeing his post, I know he did it "right".

My plane is not yet painted and I wonder if I will have this problem after I get it painted in the spring.

Prior to the taxi incident, there were no leaks, at least none that I could tell.

Any suggestions on how I should seal the rivets prior to painting?
 
Quality?

This photo is a view inside a quickbuild fuel tank. This tank has yet
to be installed or filled with fuel. The owner plans on polishing his
aircraft. I think that is a good thing.


2hn2y6b.jpg
 
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One Side vs. Two

Rick,
Did you apply sealant to just one fay surface or both? I was conservative with my Flamemaster and did both. I was especially generous on the back plate.
 
Very well, and from the inside of the tank.

Bet you didnt want to hear that:rolleyes:
Mike,

You are a smart A$$ but I had a good laugh after reading that comment.

Mine are pretty much gooped up good! I went through a LOT of proseal when making the tanks, more than I should have but that looks like it might pay off.

I went back and looked at the pictures from when I built my tanks. I think I might have reduced my capacity by one gallon per side based on how much proseal is in there. Sill, I'll be curious if I have a problem.
 
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I've been digging deep into the engineering and process control of tank sealing. Ya'll take a close look at Rick's "Attention To Detail" illustration. The single most important physical detail is the filet, for a specific engineering reason. More later, but for now if you're building tanks be sure to tool smooth filets within the specified "application time" for the particular sealant in use.
 
Technique

Rick,
Did you apply sealant to just one fay surface or both?....
Bill,

Applying sealant to both faying surfaces cannot hurt a thing. In my case,
I applied a very thick coat of sealer to just one faying surface (such as
a rib) so there was no doubt in my mind when the parts were joined and
clecoed together that voids in the fay seal could not exist between parts.
I think some builders make a mistake when they slide the ribs into place.
Careless rib insertion can displace an otherwise well applied coat of sealer
thus possibly risk causing needless voids in the fay. For that reason, I
installed the ribs in such a way there was no chance of that happening.

15oaxyp.jpg
 
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Okay new guy here, I expect to be skewered for this. If I build my fuel tanks using Rick's method of sealing, but instead of using the wet rivet approach. Drive the rivets dry and use a low temperature 350 degree solder around the head for sealing the rivet, will it work? Well let the sparks fly, what do you think?
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Okay new guy here

Robert, welcome to the force:D

Solder and aluminum??? Far as I know, they dont play well together. For clarification, I am talking good old tin/lead solder.

As far as some special stuff formulated for use on aluminum, I would check into what is used for flux, and any side effects it may have.

350 degrees might be a bit higher than pro seal can tolerate, I have no idea. Probably someone out there will know.

I think if I was going to solder a tank, I would consider just forgetting all the pro seal and go with solder for all sealing. But then I would worry about vibration effects on the solder.

Gonna be interesting to see where this goes:confused:
 
If I build my fuel tanks using Rick's method of sealing, but instead of using the wet rivet approach. Drive the rivets dry and use a low temperature 350 degree solder around the head for sealing the rivet, will it work?

FWIW, the maximum test temperature applied to qualify for the MIL spec is 250F.

Robert, unless you're ready to build tanks right now I'd suggest kicking back and watching for future guidance.
 
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