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Oh man I really messed up this time!!!!

S

Supereri

Active Member
Well I was in the garage and I was moving some wood. My wife had laid my finished rear spar on my workbench. I didn't notice it and I let a piece of wood fall and it caught the HS rear spar bending it slightly. It was bent outboard or the stiffeners and inboard of the elevator hinge. I was able to flute it and get it straight. All of the skin rivets line up fine.

I am definately going to consult Vans about this, but I was looking for some feedback from builders. I hate that I have to wait until Monday to talked to them so I have to stew about this all weekend.

Here are the pictures.

http://rv7abuilder.com/index.php?p=34
 
Hi Eric:

I think you can forge on here. Its not like you put a major crease in the spar web. Those flutes shouldn't degrade the strength of the assembly. Once you get the skins riveted on, that structure really gets strong.

Having said that, I still would wait until you hear from Van's. Step back, take a breath and work on something else this weekend. Start building an elevator or something. Whatever you do, keep an eye on what your wife is doing!! :)


Regards,
 
It's hard to see in the photos, but the picture that has the big flash reflection looks like there is a buckle on the vertical surface near the bottom edge.
Look at the cleco that's at the bottom left corner of the flash, and then directly to the left of the cleco by about 1/8" and you'll see what looks like the peak of a buckle.
While the flutes shouldn't be a problem, if that is a buckle in the main panel, I would consider it cheap insurance to replace it. On the other hand, if Van's says it's OK, then go with the advice of who designed the aircraft in the first place.
Still, if that is a buckle, and if it were me, I'd replace it anyway because I (personally) would always wonder if maybe my aircraft would have been derated by a couple of G's by the way I built it.
But that's just me, and I've been known to avoid any pucker factor beyond a "1".

In any kind of metal that's buckled, no amount of straightening can put back the strength lost, short of extra reinforcement, to that area.
If that is a buckle that I see, and if that part ever WERE to fail, it is the buckled area that would fail first.

But maybe I'm not seeing the photo correctly.

RV7-A
 
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I think you see it correctly Vern, and I am almost sure Vans is going to say the same thing you have. I think my only hope at this point is that I will be able to put in some sort of doubler over the area.

It's not the cost that I hate, it is having to drill out all of the stiffener rivets.

Man I am feeling sick about this one.
 
Before drilling out any rivets, I think I'd first price all the parts that make up the assembly.
It may not be terribly expensive compared to the time, headaches, heartaches and aggravation you'll spend trying to transfer the parts.

Plus, I'll bet a lot of guys have spent a whole bunch more money than you having to replace much worse "mis-calculations".

I wonder how many unfortunate souls have screwed up their canopies and had to replace them?... There, now you should feel better. ;)

Matt
RV7-a
 
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Looking at the pictures (and it is hard to tell), but I see a slight buckle in the spar web. I'd drill out the rivets and replace the spar half. Yeah, it's a bunch of rivets, but they actually drill out pretty easy (a rivet removal tool is a nice to have for this number of rivets). I just check and the spar is $18.05, nothing compared to the piece of mind you get from doing it. Hey, we all get these "set backs" from time to time ... I've had more than my share and I always feel better after going through the extra trouble to have done the "right thing". I'm ultra conservative in this area and have surely replaced parts that really didn't need it, but you know what, I don't care a bit. There is nothing to date in my plane that I look at and wonder if it's OK or not.

This is a one day set back (once parts arrive) ? no big deal. Just my opinion, though, your mileage may vary.
 
$18.05 isn't bad at all. I may price the stiffeners as well and just end up reusing only the hinges, that would only be 24 rivets to drill out.

Ah well. $100 or so is money well spent to ensure the safety of this bird amd more importantly me and my passengers.
 
My 1st screwup

You're not the only one here that screws up, Supereri! Here's my 1st problem. The embarassing thing is that I recently read about another guy messing up this area, too!

DSCN5978s.png


The angle drill walked while I was drilling the HS-405 to HS-702 to HS-710 hole. I'm sure Vans will argee that I need all 3 pieces as replacements. Which brings up a good question. Is there a place to find out what all the piece parts cost (other than from Van's support phone/email)? The hardware list that came with the kit has (what I think are) prices, but there was nothing similar for all the sheet metal, angles, etc...
 
1st messup

Do any of these holes line up for where a hinge angle attaches? If not, one alternative to replacing the whole lot is to just relocate where you drill to attach these parts and just abandon the messed up hole after deburring it. So long as you maintain proper edge distance, there should be no problem doing this.

Believe me, there are going to be other instances where holes do not end up exactly where you want them. Experience will teach you what is structurally acceptable. Replacing all the parts is certainly an option and if it makes you feel better then by all means do it. IMHO however, relocating this hole is perfectly acceptable.

Regards,
 
zsadecki said:
You're not the only one here that screws up, Supereri! Here's my 1st problem. The embarassing thing is that I recently read about another guy messing up this area, too!

DSCN5978s.png


The angle drill walked while I was drilling the HS-405 to HS-702 to HS-710 hole. I'm sure Vans will argee that I need all 3 pieces as replacements. Which brings up a good question. Is there a place to find out what all the piece parts cost (other than from Van's support phone/email)? The hardware list that came with the kit has (what I think are) prices, but there was nothing similar for all the sheet metal, angles, etc...
Click to expand...

The HS-405 to Hs-702 TO hs-710 is a virtual minefield for beginners like me. However after re-ordering the parts and doing it right the next time it was a lesson well learned.
 
Thanks, Roberta! $50 was a good guess on my part, total for those 3 parts is $51.67.

I really think I need replacements. because of the huge hole in the rib, I really can't maintain edge clearance (on one part or another) with a new hole. This will be my $50 punishment for trying to go too fast and not being careful ;)
 
As long as you're ordering parts, order an extra trim tab skin. Most everyone messes that up the first try, including me. That front HS spar is the worst part of the emp. I opened up the bends to get at it better for drilling and riveting. It's a floppy mess during assembly, but once together, it's really strong.
 
roberthegy,

Thanks for the link to the parts list. When you break the emp parts cost down these little messups don't seem so bad, cost wise I mean.
 
Well I spoke with Vans this morning. I showed the person on the phone the pictures on my webpage and he said that as long as there wasn't any cracking that he didn't feel it would be a problem. He said the flutes are fine, but he did question why there were three. I didn't think much about it then but I hink the answer is because the bend was a smooth bend instead of a tight bend.

At this point I am unsure about the need to replace the part. I feel like had the Vans tech support person had any concern at all about the integrity of the part the recomendation would have come back to replace it. He said he wouldn't worry about it if there is no cracking. There is absolutely no cracking that I can see.
 
Eric,
If this is your first mistake, there will be more to come. It's like the first scratch on the new car or truck. It seems really bad at the time, but you know the next one isn't such a big deal. I had to replace my first HS spar assembly and the next mistake just didn't seem that bad.

Remember, it's not what you break, it's how you fix it that counts.

When in doubt, throw it out!
 
Ok, after further consideration it's time to replace. I just don't want to get myself caught up in the "Ah, I think it is ok" habit. I have one rivet on the front spar that I need to replace . It's the same area mentioned about by CFI1513840, but mine does not seem as severe. The hole has gotten enlarged so I am going to have to put in a pop rivet I think. Is that the correct method?



I am at work and I need to confirm a few things. First the rear spar "channel" is HS-603pp, correct? Also what size rivets are those that attach the spar stiffener to the spar channel?

Would I need to use the next size up rivet? I am replacing the spar channel, but not the spar stiffener, do the stiffener holes enlarge during riveting like the thin sheet AL?
 
<<I am at work and I need to confirm a few things. First the rear spar "channel" is HS-603pp, correct? Also what size rivets are those that attach the spar stiffener to the spar channel?>>

Yeah, HS-603PP. You'll only need one of these to replace your damaged part. Also, the rivet size here is 1/8". You should have plenty of extra to cover what you need, but ordering a few extra never hurts.

<<Would I need to use the next size up rivet? I am replacing the spar channel, but not the spar stiffener, do the stiffener holes enlarge during riveting like the thin sheet AL?>>

I wouldn't go up a rivet size unless the hole is really enlarged. A little wiggle room in the hole is OK ... the rivet will fill this in (to a point). Next size up is 5/32, a pretty big rivet. You shouldn't see the holes in the stiffeners enlarge much if any. Once you get the head knocked off the rivet you can use a smaller bit (#38 or #40) to drill throught the center of the rivet and then it'll pull out pretty easy. I use a rivet removal tool to drill out the head ... gets it centered every time without having to think about it. It's not a must have, but I find it rather handy
 
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