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New Whelen LED Lighting for Experimental Aircraft

J

Jeff Argersinger

Member
After reviewing many of the existing strobe, and LED offerings for the experimental and LSA markets, the existing products were either inexpensive and not bright enough, or, too expensive for experimental lighting performance. In order to meet the demands of an affordable, and visible lighting system, Whelen proudly introduces the MICROBURST? line of LED lighting for experimental and light sport aircraft. Small, lightweight, low current draw and no EMI/RFI emissions. Available in the legendary Whelen Comet Flash?.
A unique opportunity for affordable LED lighting. All inclusive three light system to fit your RV?s only $499.

http://www.whelen.com/pb/Aviation/Product%20Sheets/MicroBurst_Flyer.pdf

The MICROBURST? line will be sold factory direct.
Ordering form to be posted soon for deliveries starting in February 2010.
 
more information

You mention that other LED lights were either not putting out enough light or were too expensive. Your price is more reasonable than others but you do not mention what light output specs your lights have. Do you have any light output specifications on these new LED nav/strobes? Your specs have weight, dimensions, amp draws, but not any information on light output to use to compare with those that are "not bright enough". Can you provide that information?

Your link states they can only be ordered from your website but I do not see anything on your website except a link to the document you linked to in your post. I am at a position in my build to where I am ready to order nav/strobes for my project. Can you tell me when we might be able to see the order form on your website?
 
I'm with Steve here. Over a 50% price difference when compared to competition is a red flag. I'm not implying that there are any issues with the new product, but it does bring the skeptic out in us builders.

I'm not only interested in the technical specs of the light emmisions (intensity and pattern) but electrical noise issues as well. We need to determine if we can make an apples to apples comparison.

If Whelen was up to the challenge, they would provide a set to Dan Langhout so that he could directly compare them to both AeroLEDs and Aveo that he previosuly tested.
 
This sounds great Jeff. Do I understand that a Microburst 1 and a Microburst II would replace my Whelen system that I bought from Van's and would be legal night flying lights? I see that the Microburst I will fit in my Whelen mount on the rudder. Will the wingtip lights fit right on my current Whelen wingtip mounts?
 
Its $1 more expensive to buy the whole kit (MicroBurst II with Taillight Kit) than buying them separately (Microburst II and Microburst I).
 
Whelen introduces a new LED-based system at a low price (a miracle), factory direct (which means accepting some grief from middlemen), specifically for ex-av (that's us).....and ya'll start whining?

Somebody will buy and report soon enough. In the meantime, perhaps we should be encouraging this sort of activity from old line aviation manufacturers.
 
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Jeff,

brilliant (pun intended).
I look forward to seeing the ordering form posted. I'm pleased to see Whelen responding to the needs of the experimental community.
Bill Brooks
691 Island Park Drive
Ottawa, ON
Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
 
Benefit of the Doubt

I think it's great that Whelen has recognized the experimental market. The price point certainly got my attention! Whelen, of all folks, certainly understands the technical requirements of the FARs and Jeff in particular has participated in some of the discussions on this topic here on this forum. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they are bringing out a technically compliant product for us.

That said - I do wish they would post some angle vs. intensity curves (as they have done here for other products) or specifically mention some optical performance numbers.
 
Give it a chance

DanH said:
Whelen introduces a new LED-based system at a low price (a miracle), factory direct (which means accepting some grief from middlemen), specifically for ex-av (that's us).....and ya'll start whining?

Somebody will buy and report soon enough. In the meantime, perhaps we should be encouraging this sort of activity from old line aviation manufacturers.
Click to expand...

Amen, Dan

With additional characters as requried.
 
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It's good to see Whelen dive into this market. I feel like them coming in late to the party is a bit like Garmin with the G3X - behind the likes of Dynon, GRT, AFS, but with a good history making certified products.

They have obviously priced the system to be competitive. It will be interesting to see how they work - for example, there seem to only be 2 emitters for the nav lights. That's probably enough, but it'd be good to see data.

TODR
 
I know Whelen will have a three page spec sheet and a quality product but can anyone tell me why the price difference between "Aviation" light systems and these? R & D was my first thought...just curious. I can easily build a position light system around these bulbs assemblies. I have seen them fired up and I can tell you they are WAY brighter that my certified Whelen position lights I currently have on my RV-10

http://www.ledlight.com/1156-1157-automotive-led-lights.aspx
 
DanH said:
Whelen introduces a new LED-based system at a low price (a miracle), factory direct (which means accepting some grief from middlemen), specifically for ex-av (that's us).....and ya'll start whining?

Somebody will buy and report soon enough. In the meantime, perhaps we should be encouraging this sort of activity from old line aviation manufacturers.
Click to expand...

Who's whining? We're just anxious for all the facts. I think it's great that Whelen is entering this market. It's just ironic for the vendor that historically had the most expensively priced product to come out with a product that is half the price of the competition.

The marketing brochure doesn't make any comments about TSO or FAR compliance. Since it's an experimental product, I'm not expecting TSO compliance. I would expect compliance to the FARs.

I just expect Jeff to meet the same standards that expects of others. I would be happy to see Jeff put his own product through the same tests as below.

I trust that Whelen will deliver a quality product, but most of us want to verify that it will meet expectations before purchase. If it meets expectations, then just think of all the innovation it will force their competitions to deliver just to stay competitive.


Jeff Argersinger said:
We spoke to many people this year at Oshkosh and one of the hot topics was regarding light output of the LED lighting choices that are now available. Several threads on VAF indicate the same interest as well.

Although there are many well built, attractive alternatives in the marketplace, Whelen's design objective is to provide products designed, and approved to FAA/TSO qualification standards. By doing this, it relieves the homebuilder or OEM from the time consuming task of proving FAR compliance of their lighting system to the FAA on their own, (if the aircraft is to fly at night).

The purpose of the first test was to show the differences in the anti-collision light output between the Whelen Model 90400 series FAA/TSO certified LED anti-collision light, and the Aeroleds Pulsar EXP non-certified LED anti-collision light. This is purely a light output comparison only, NOT a design critique.

http://www.whelen.com/_AVIATION/images/temp/graph-1.htm

The second test was conducted to provide light output data to answer the many LED landing light questions we also received at Oshkosh. This test compares the light output of the Whelen Model 71141 series LED landing/taxi light, 71125 series and the Aeroleds SunSpot, LED landing light. This is purely a light output comparison only, NOT a design critique.

http://www.whelen.com/_AVIATION/images/temp/graph-2.htm


The photometric tests were conducted in house at Whelen using a Hoffman Engineering goniophotometer system in a fully certified chamber, in an accredited lab. This is the same system used to certify our LED products currently in use by multiple OEM's.

Additional product testing is currently in progress.
Click to expand...
 
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DanH said:
Whelen introduces a new LED-based system at a low price (a miracle), factory direct (which means accepting some grief from middlemen), specifically for ex-av (that's us).....and ya'll start whining?

Somebody will buy and report soon enough. In the meantime, perhaps we should be encouraging this sort of activity from old line aviation manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Dan, I would like to respond to your post since I was the first to comment on this thread.

To be completely clear here, I was not 'whining' when I inquired about the light output. I simply was looking for information that would allow me to make an informed decision concerning my needs for lighting. The price is about half that of the other two competitors out there so I would like to have more information to use for comparison against these other two choices that goes beyond just the price.

As Jeff pointed out in his original post, they entered the market because the competition was either "inexpensive and not bright enough, or too expensive for experimental lighting performance". Since he had made this statement and he had provided the price information concerning the too expensive part I was asking that he provide the output part of the not bright enough part.

If my request sounded too harsh for a company such as Whelen to answer then I guess I should quit posting and find other mechanisms for finding out information I deem important to know.
 
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Sign me up for a set. Nothing like some good 'ol capitalist competition. I was wondering when the established leader was going to offer a product similar to the AeroLED.
The half price thought is a bit uncomfortable. Either AeroLED is laughing all the way to the bank or Whelan is losing money on every set sold. Or maybe Whelen is just making fewer trips to the bank.
I'm thinking of those LED strip lights available at the Av suppliers for $40 or at Autozone for $10.
 
I think AeroLed is forced to a higher price to cover the overhead. Whelen is a much larger long term established company right?

Not sure how those guys charging $40 to $90 for the same thing you get at Autozone for $10 sleep at night....

Steve said:
Sign me up for a set. Nothing like some good 'ol capitalist competition. I was wondering when the established leader was going to offer a product similar to the AeroLED.
The half price thought is a bit uncomfortable. Either AeroLED is laughing all the way to the bank or Whelan is losing money on every set sold. Or maybe Whelen is just making fewer trips to the bank.
I'm thinking of those LED strip lights available at the Av suppliers for $40 or at Autozone for $10.
Click to expand...
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
TSO/PMA certification? That can't be cheap....

TODR
Click to expand...

Granted but these are experimental right? Maybe the LSA requires a special cert? From first glance it appears Whelen saw a need in the LSA market, that combined with the experimental market, was enough to justify development of this system. I really like the design, I don't need it now, if I were building again (soon I hope) :D I would consider it.
 
Jury is still out . . . .

. . . . on the new Whelen stuff. Compliant LED nav/position lights are pretty easy to do - but compliant LED strobes are pretty hard even with current technology LEDs. I'm frankly a bit worried about the new Whelens based on their stated power consumption - it's really low (which is a good thing if they put out enough light). I'm just concerned that it almost looks too good to be true.

But like I said in a previous post, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Brantel said:
I think AeroLed is forced to a higher price to cover the overhead. Whelen is a much larger long term established company right?

Not sure how those guys charging $40 to $90 for the same thing you get at Autozone for $10 sleep at night....
Click to expand...
 
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That is the beauty of a healthy competitive market.
Companies will sell their product for what they can. It is surely no coincidence that the LED strobe offerings from the other makers mentioned that offer what is seen as a credible alternative to what was in the market (the Whelan "Systems" that Vans sells) are priced in the range of the Whelan systems. When there is not much competition, the actual cost of the alternative does not have to much factor into the price.
Whelan has now jumped in with an alternative of its own.
Good for Whelan.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
(and in the market for a strobe set).
 
Steve said:
Sign me up for a set. Nothing like some good 'ol capitalist competition. I was wondering when the established leader was going to offer a product similar to the AeroLED.
The half price thought is a bit uncomfortable. Either AeroLED is laughing all the way to the bank or Whelan is losing money on every set sold. Or maybe Whelen is just making fewer trips to the bank.
I'm thinking of those LED strip lights available at the Av suppliers for $40 or at Autozone for $10.
Click to expand...

Steve,

The reason Whelen is able to charge such a low price for this offering is the design. They have simply placed some PCAs with LEDs on a heatsink and put a bubble lens on it.

Our Suntail has 18 three Watt LEDs in it compared to the Whelen unit which has 9, and we use a lensed optic that directs the emitted light into the FAR/TSO required light pattern. I just finished testing the Suntail for TSO testing, and at it's weakest angle it is hitting over 500 effective candela (the minimum required is 400). I guarantee that the Whelen tail strobe that is part of this package won't come close to the requirement.

Likewise, our Pulsar NS90 meets the TSO light output requirements, and I am also finishing the TSO testing on the Pulsar NSP to get it TSO'd as well.

What I see in this package is an attempt by Whelen to offer a low price package that does not comply with the FAR or TSO light levels to compete with hobbyist or garage built lights. It probably will be somewhat successful for them since a lot of home builders care more about price than performance.

We are planning on continuing to provide high quality, high performance lights at AeroLEDs at a fair market price considering the cost of putting them together. You have to consider that the reflectors and lenses and additional LEDs that we are using in our designs come at a cost, but they are necessary to meet the performance requirements laid out by the FAA.

While Whelen is stepping down into the experimental arena, we are about to step up into the certified arena. We plan to continue to offer quality lights to the experimental market as well.

We appreciate the customers that we have in the experimental market, but need to charge enough money that we can be a sustainable business that can remain in the market to provide a choice to customers.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
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Vans Airforce Advertiser

Dean_aeroleds said:
Steve,

The reason Whelen is able to charge such a low price for this offering is the design. They have simply placed some PCAs with LEDs on a heatsink and put a bubble lens on it.

Our Suntail has 18 three Watt LEDs in it compared to the Whelen unit which has 9, and we use a lensed optic that directs the emitted light into the FAR/TSO required light pattern. I just finished testing the Suntail for TSO testing, and at it's weakest angle it is hitting over 500 effective candela (the minimum required is 400). I guarantee that the Whelen tail strobe that is part of this package won't come close to the requirement.

Likewise, our Pulsar NS90 meets the TSO light output requirements, and I am also finishing the TSO testing on the Pulsar NSP to get it TSO'd as well.

What I see in this package is an attempt by Whelen to offer a low price package that does not comply with the FAR or TSO light levels to compete with hobbyist or garage built lights. It probably will be somewhat successful for them since a lot of home builders care more about price than performance.

We are planning on continuing to provide high quality, high performance lights at AeroLEDs at a fair market price considering the cost of putting them together. You have to consider that the reflectors and lenses and additional LEDs that we are using in our designs come at a cost, but they are necessary to meet the performance requirements laid out by the FAA.

While Whelen is stepping down into the experimental arena, we are about to step up into the certified arena. We plan to continue to offer quality lights to the experimental market as well.

We appreciate the customers that we have in the experimental market, but need to charge enough money that we can be a sustainable business that can remain in the market to provide a choice to customers.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
Click to expand...

I noticed AeroLEDs supports the site. I cant find the other manufacturer. That means something to me.
 
More Information

Thank you all for your interest, excellent questions and feedback. I felt I would give the post at least 24 hours time and then try to answer some of the questions.

So as to not mislead anyone on VAF, the Microburst? products were designed to fill a gap in our product line for Experimental/Light Sport/Ultra-light aircraft lighting. Many pilots simply want an affordable lighting system to provide added safety even though they will never fly at night with their aircraft, or, as indicated in some discussions on VAF, do not expect the ?lighting police? to come looking for them, therefore either build their own lights which would have no approvals, or purchase un-approved lights.

The Mircroburst? lights are designed and built to the same practices as the many Whelen TSO approved products; however they are for experimental use and will not comply with all aspects of FAR/TSO requirements. We are not marketing, or selling them with claims of FAR/TSO compliance. They are their own entity within our product line. The mounting hole pattern is slightly different than our legacy products, however will fall within the same footprint.

The benchmark of performance for ?legal? night flying is a position/anti-collision light system that is TSO approved. If a product is not marked as TSO approved (where an approval exists), it should be assumed that it does not comply with all of the TSO/FAR requirements, or, data should be supplied with each unit sold to the end user substantiating the claims of full TSO compliance.

Whelen?s existing line of TSO approved LED lights, (forward position/anti-collision/tail position), typically are tested to over 1,200 individual points to show FAR compliance per TSO-C96a and TSO-C30b light output requirements. This also includes the overlap areas of the position lights that are typically the most difficult area to comply with.

We will be posting an on-line order form within the next week or so for those who feel that these lights will suit their needs.

Regards,
Jeff Argersinger
Whelen Engineering
 
Jeff Argersinger said:
So as to not mislead anyone on VAF, the Microburst? products were designed to fill a gap in our product line for Experimental/Light Sport/Ultra-light aircraft lighting.

The Mircroburst? lights are designed and built to the same practices as the many Whelen TSO approved products; however they are for experimental use and will not comply with all aspects of FAR/TSO requirements.
Click to expand...


So what aspects of the FAR/TSO requirements do they meet?

I think the expectation of most folks on VAF is that they want to install products that meet the TSO, but are perfectly comfortable implementing products that haven't formally gone through the TSO process.

If I interpret your statement correctly, these don't meet the requirements defined in FAR 23 and shouldn't be considered for night flying. Is my assumption correct?
 
rleffler said:
So what aspects of the FAR/TSO requirements do they meet?

I think the expectation of most folks on VAF is that they want to install products that meet the TSO, but are perfectly comfortable implementing products that haven't formally gone through the TSO process.

If I interpret your statement correctly, these don't meet the requirements defined in FAR 23 and shouldn't be considered for night flying. Is my assumption correct?
Click to expand...
I am interested in the answers you supply Bob on this question. If they meet or do not meet TSO/FAR, Part 23, or any other bureaucrat's ideas of "proper" lighting requirements is not what will drive my decision on purchasing equipment. What will drive it is what performance the product will give me in addition to the price it will cost me. I do not want a cheap inferior product nor do I want an overpriced product. However, how am I going to be able to determine that fact without all of the appropriate information?

I am asking for lighting specifications so I can make an informed decision. So what about it? Will we be able to see these specifications for light output? Is this a big secret? If your product undercuts the cost by half of the competition should we realistically expect it to match that competition in performance. I would like to think I am intelligent enough to analyze the situation and determine the truth of the matter for myself. That is, as long as I have access to all of the pertinent information.

Perhaps Dean is correct in that many people will only look at price as the determining factor. I just don't happen to be one of them. Give me all of the information on the product and let me make up my own mind on whether it is appropriate for my build or not. That is all I am asking.
 
Personally I'm glad I bought the AeroLED's Suntail and a set of NS90's! ...now I can complete my RV-7 which I plan to certify for IFR and know that my lights are 91.205 compliant on inspection day!

- Peter

PS - Plus Dean and his crew are GREAT to work with!
 
N200PF said:
PS - Plus Dean and his crew are GREAT to work with!
Click to expand...

Amen. The team at AEROLEDS is among the best that I have ever dealt with. They stand behind their quality products, and have always been very professional and polite. This post is not intended to diss other lighting suppliers, it only reflects my experience AEROLEDS.
 
So.

They're not compliant/legal for night flight, so we can use them on aircraft that don't require lights for conditions that don't need lighting?

Are they a legal anti-collision strobe? Thats still required even for LSA right?
 
I am in the same boat. Very confused on the information going back and forth, are we saying that these are not approved lights for night flight and IFR. If that is the case then what is the point of them. Is this something that will just take some time to get approved and then they will or am I just completely off??
-david
 
The way I read this is the new Whelen LED strobes are cool and less expensive but not 91.205 compliant. This means they don't satisfy the requirement for night or IFR flight which is really what strobes are for. :confused:

I agree with David; what is the reason to even put the Whelen strobes on if the only time you can legally fly the airplane is day VFR?

I guess being more visible to other aircraft is nice but to me, a couple hundred bucks more (less than two tanks of gas) for the ability to fly at night when I need to is worth it.

- Peter
 
dedgemon said:
Are they a legal anti-collision strobe? That's still required even for LSA right?
Click to expand...

The lighting requirements for Light-Sport aircraft are the same as for Amateur-Built aircraft. No lights at all required for daytime VFR and for night and/or IFR, the aircraft lighting must meet 91.205.
 
The Whelan ad (link in post #1) doesn't say the product is 91.205 compliant. Nor is any mention made of night flying capability. It just has words about "meeting your aviation requirements."
Your requirements may be different than the FAA's.
 
Steve said:
The Whelan ad (link in post #1) doesn't say the product is 91.205 compliant. Nor is any mention made of night flying capability. It just has words about "meeting your aviation requirements."
Your requirements may be different than the FAA's.
Click to expand...
I understand the semantics are marketing tools (and perhaps legal tools as well) for selling products. The very well manipulated wording may be useful tools for a company to use to sell those products. To me this just shows there is a difference in motivations for them as there are for me (the consumer, or in this case the manufacturer).

In my opinion, just selling a product to make a profit should not be a company's primary motivation. Especially in an area where safety of use of that product is an important factor. If safety is important in the use of these products then I should be able to view ALL information that will detail the successful use of that product. Then I will be able to adequately make a determination on whether the product will meet my needs.
 
I've flown with a few RVs and Rockets with LED strobes. What I can say unequivocally is they're not nearly as bright or as visible as traditional strobes. Things may have progressed in the last six months but until a manufacturer can come up with a LED strobe system as bright as traditional strobes, costs equal to or less than traditional strobes, I personally won't be interested in buying any.
 
Not apples to apples....

The definition of a "Strobe Light" is and electronically regulated release of energy through a quartz vessel, or something to that effect. Energy is stored in a capacitor and then released very quickly for a very short duration through a normally non-conductive gas. That massive build up of high voltage, or potential, causes the gas to conduct and radiate. This is a very, very, quick event.

Rating Strobes in wattage is a bit tricky. Rating strobes in Joules is more relevant. I do not know what the Joule rating of a normal aviation Strobe is, but Whelen should be able to tell us. If it is something within reason, like 50 joules, that would be equivalent to something like 9,000 peak watts!
You simply can not get that kind of instantaneous energy out of an LED, at least those being used in these products.

Even the most powerfull LED's are not going to measure up.
LED's are rated in watts, and lumens per watt. A 5 watt LED is considered to be pretty powerful. Those ratings our for continuous operation.
It should be feasible for an LED die to be designed for the very short duration required of a Strobe at very high power. Since it is short duration, perhaps the heat could be dealt with. However, today, manufacturers are using LED's designed for lighting and signal applications and simply will not work if compared to a traditional strobe.
 
Typical Whelen Strobe

JonJay said:
The definition of a "Strobe Light" is and electronically regulated release of energy through a quartz vessel, or something to that effect. Energy is stored in a capacitor and then released very quickly for a very short duration through a normally non-conductive gas. That massive build up of high voltage, or potential, causes the gas to conduct and radiate. This is a very, very, quick event.

Rating Strobes in wattage is a bit tricky. Rating strobes in Joules is more relevant. I do not know what the Joule rating of a normal aviation Strobe is, but Whelen should be able to tell us. If it is something within reason, like 50 joules, that would be equivalent to something like 9,000 peak watts!
You simply can not get that kind of instantaneous energy out of an LED, at least those being used in these products.

Even the most powerfull LED's are not going to measure up.
LED's are rated in watts, and lumens per watt. A 5 watt LED is considered to be pretty powerful. Those ratings our for continuous operation.
It should be feasible for an LED die to be designed for the very short duration required of a Strobe at very high power. Since it is short duration, perhaps the heat could be dealt with. However, today, manufacturers are using LED's designed for lighting and signal applications and simply will not work if compared to a traditional strobe.
Click to expand...

I was able to find a typical power supply on a single or alternate strobe is rated at 42 Joules.
 
JonJay said:
You simply can not get that kind of instantaneous energy out of an LED, at least those being used in these products.
Click to expand...

Would that be why AeroLED's is using 18 LED's on the Suntail to meet the output requirement for the FARs? All I care about is that they're legal, bright and last a long time. The fact that 18 LED's use less power that a traditional strobe and don't need a heavy external power supply is a bonus.

- Peter
 
Makes Sense

N200PF said:
Would that be why AeroLED's is using 18 LED's on the Suntail to meet the output requirement for the FARs? All I care about is that they're legal, bright and last a long time. The fact that 18 LED's use less power that a traditional strobe and don't need a heavy external power supply is a bonus.

- Peter
Click to expand...

Your points are well taken. My prior post was addressing Rocket Bobs observation that they are not as bright as normal strobes. They simply can not be, even 18 of them. They are two very different animals. The FARs dont distinguish. If you are happy with just meeting the FARs, and they make a product that does, you should be happier still.
LED's have their advantages and as technology continues to advance, they will have even more. Wait two more years, who knows what we will have developed. Just trying to keep a reality check here as there is so much mis-information out there it is scary.
 
Quite right but . . . .

JonJay said:
The definition of a "Strobe Light" is and electronically regulated release of energy through a quartz vessel, or something to that effect. Energy is stored in a capacitor and then released very quickly for a very short duration through a normally non-conductive gas. That massive build up of high voltage, or potential, causes the gas to conduct and radiate. This is a very, very, quick event.

Rating Strobes in wattage is a bit tricky. Rating strobes in Joules is more relevant. I do not know what the Joule rating of a normal aviation Strobe is, but Whelen should be able to tell us. If it is something within reason, like 50 joules, that would be equivalent to something like 9,000 peak watts!
You simply can not get that kind of instantaneous energy out of an LED, at least those being used in these products.

Even the most powerfull LED's are not going to measure up.
LED's are rated in watts, and lumens per watt. A 5 watt LED is considered to be pretty powerful. Those ratings our for continuous operation.
It should be feasible for an LED die to be designed for the very short duration required of a Strobe at very high power. Since it is short duration, perhaps the heat could be dealt with. However, today, manufacturers are using LED's designed for lighting and signal applications and simply will not work if compared to a traditional strobe.
Click to expand...


If you look at the Blondel-Rey equation used as the basis for the FAR definition of effective intensity, it is in essence measuring the area under the intensity vs. time curve and then dividing it by the duration of the flash + a time constant. The xenon strobe gets it's "area" with high intensity over a short duration (1-2 msecs or usually less). LED based strobes, on the other hand, get their "area" with a much lower intensity but also a much longer duration (as much as 200 msecs or so). Either way to achieve the effective intensity is legitimate. Blondel-Rey has to do with human perception of a flashing light. There is a lot of discussion in the literature about whether it is really the best measure of effective intensity or not. There are other theories/equations out there as well but currently, the Blondel-Rey equation is the one that defines a FAR compliant strobe.
 
Yes...

Dan Langhout said:
If you look at the Blondel-Rey equation used as the basis for the FAR definition of effective intensity, it is in essence measuring the area under the intensity vs. time curve and then dividing it by the duration of the flash + a time constant. The xenon strobe gets it's "area" with high intensity over a short duration (1-2 msecs or usually less). LED based strobes, on the other hand, get their "area" with a much lower intensity but also a much longer duration (as much as 200 msecs or so). Either way to achieve the effective intensity is legitimate. Blondel-Rey has to do with human perception of a flashing light. There is a lot of discussion in the literature about whether it is really the best measure of effective intensity or not. There are other theories/equations out there as well but currently, the Blondel-Rey equation is the one that defines a FAR compliant strobe.
Click to expand...

and you know I agree with you Dan. And as you suggest, we probably dont want to start that discussion on the FAR's procedures again! ha!
Thanks as always for filling in the gap of misperception with the facts.
 
First, it is very refreshing to see the comments here regarding the awareness of having approved/compliant anti-collision and position lights.

The new microburst lights;
Do they meet the TSO/FAR?s for light output?..no, they were not designed to, or advertised as such. Do they comply with the chromaticity and environmental test conditions for TSO, yes. As noted, the lens has no optics so the anti-collision portion suffers in intensity on the horizontal plane, however the lack of optics allows for more global light distribution above and below the horizontal plane. The forward and aft navigation lights fall within range of the FAR?s with exception to the cutoff areas. When the chamber frees up, we will plot the distribution patterns.

As stated earlier, there are many pilots that simply want lighting on their aircraft to provide an added level of safety while flying, and are not concerned with approved or compliant products. I have seen this first hand by walking the flight line at Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun for the past 20+ years, and viewing the many different lighting configurations (home built and purchased).

In response to Bob Leffler?s excellent statement ?
?I think the expectation of most folks on VAF is that they want to install products that meet the TSO, but are perfectly comfortable implementing products that haven't formally gone through the TSO process?.

I think I answered above with regards to the Microburst? lights. I am curious though how the VAF community knows that other lighting product offerings meet TSO performance levels? The only real data I have seen is Dan Langhout taking his time and effort to test and provide light output comparisons. Is there any hard data?

Based on my experience, the major costs incurred for TSO approval is in the testing to show compliance to all of the necessary light output, and environmental testing requirements. If that has been done, then a data package is compiled (usually reviewed/approved by a DER) and then sent to the FAA. The FAA does not charge for giving TSO approval. If all is in order, the approval letter can be back within 30 days.

I will gladly provide Dan a set of Microburst lights so he can perform his test, as he is a respected member of the VAF forums, and will provide an un biased opinion. Dan just drop me an e-mail with the address you would like the lights shipped to. Lights should be available in Feb.

For Steve I. ? appreciate your comments. I would like to ship you a set free of charge for your evaluation. You can send me an e-mail with your mailing address. [email protected]
You mention safety as being a concern. I agree. That is why Whelen has a full line of TSO ?approved? products that will provide optimum visibility. If you look through our catalog, you will see that most all of our anti-collision lights have been granted TSO approval.

There will be a video clip of the Microburst in operation posted on our web site early next week.

Thank you
Jeff Argersinger
 
Hard Data

Jeff Argersinger said:
<snip>
In response to Bob Leffler?s excellent statement ?
?I think the expectation of most folks on VAF is that they want to install products that meet the TSO, but are perfectly comfortable implementing products that haven't formally gone through the TSO process?.

I think I answered above with regards to the Microburst? lights. I am curious though how the VAF community knows that other lighting product offerings meet TSO performance levels? The only real data I have seen is Dan Langhout taking his time and effort to test and provide light output comparisons. Is there any hard data?
</snip>
Click to expand...

There isn't public hard data to my knowledge but there are at least two vendors who make specific claims that their lights meet the technical requirements of the FAR (AeroLEDS and Aveo) but do not (yet) have a TSO letter. The question then becomes do you take them at their word or do you demand "proof"? This gets into the credibility of the company. Anybody who actually "designs" their lights rather than just "building" them should have a pretty good idea of whether or not they will at least get close to meeting the FAR. Getting the TSO apparently requires comprehensive testing at all the corners of the requirements envelope to verify compliance. Jeff could probably comment from experience here but I would assume that you either comply with all the numbers or you don't. Close is probably not good enough for the TSO letter. This is a legal thing.

I think most of us would probably be comfortable with lights that we felt were at least pretty close to the FAR requirements and comply with the intent of the FAR. Testing at maybe 24 points (or something like that) instead of 1200 would probably tell you 90% of what you needed to know about the performance of the lights from this perspective. This is the philosophy I followed with my crude light meter tests. It certainly isn't TSO testing but it will tell me if I'm looking at something that is at least in the ballpark or not. I'm not too worried if the strobe effective intensity is only 390 instead of 400 - but I am worried if it is 60 instead of 400!


Jeff Argersinger said:
<snip>

I will gladly provide Dan a set of Microburst lights so he can perform his test, as he is a respected member of the VAF forums, and will provide an un biased opinion. Dan just drop me an e-mail with the address you would like the lights shipped to. Lights should be available in Feb.

</snip>
Click to expand...

I really didn't intend to play the role of Consumer Reports here. But I guess I could take a little time and do some measurements if there are folks here interested in the results. Note that Jeff did indicate that they would put these in their testing facility at some point and they would make plots available. I'm sure their numbers would be much more accurate than mine!

I think the real issue here is that folks just want straight talk. If they meet the FARs - say so. If they don't - then be up front and say they don't. Give some "for instance" numbers if you can. I think that omitting information about intensity or compliance is misleading to many folks - particularly from somebody like Whelen. When you have the reputation as the leader in the field and have most of the certified market (they do don't they?) people will just assume that anything you bring out is going to meet the requirements if you don't indicate otherwise.
 
JonJay said:
Your points are well taken. My prior post was addressing Rocket Bobs observation that they are not as bright as normal strobes. They simply can not be, even 18 of them. They are two very different animals. The FARs dont distinguish. If you are happy with just meeting the FARs, and they make a product that does, you should be happier still.
LED's have their advantages and as technology continues to advance, they will have even more. Wait two more years, who knows what we will have developed. Just trying to keep a reality check here as there is so much mis-information out there it is scary.
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Jon,

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Our Suntail hits 500 effective candela in the +/-5 degree range above and below the plane of the aircraft, and exceeds the other required levels per the FAR as well. Yes, it doesn't throw as much light straight up or straight down as a Xenon tube, but that actually is a good thing since that light tends to come back at the pilot when you fly into a cloud more than light that goes more directly away from the airplane.

The fact that the LEDs are on for a longer time period than the Xenon strobe is actually a benefit as well, because with a Xenon flash you literally can blink and miss it, but you can't with the LED pulses.

Have you had the opportunity to see an AeroLEDs Suntail and a Xenon tailstrobe operating side by side at a distance of 1/2 a mile? If not, you really haven't compared the two, and I'm not sure what you are basing your opinion on. Perhaps you have seen other LED strobes that were less than impressive, and that may be where you got your impression from. Making a blanket statement about LED strobes based on a sample of a couple of products you may have seen isn't really fair. Not all products are equal.

I do plan on posting our optical test data on VAF soon. There are a lot of measurement points that have to be taken, so it is a time consuming process to do the measurements, but as soon as I have the data compiled I will post it.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
Dan Langhout said:
I think the real issue here is that folks just want straight talk. If they meet the FARs - say so. If they don't - then be up front and say they don't. Give some "for instance" numbers if you can. I think that omitting information about intensity or compliance is misleading to many folks - particularly from somebody like Whelen. When you have the reputation as the leader in the field and have most of the certified market (they do don't they?) people will just assume that anything you bring out is going to meet the requirements if you don't indicate otherwise.
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Amen!

I find it hard to believe that Whelen would bring something to market with out some preliminary testing.

I am going to take Jeff at his word. Since he states these aren't FAR compliant, then they aren't an option I will consider.

When/if Whelen determines they are FAR complaint, I will then perform my due diligence to the best of my capability to determine that the vendor/product meets their claimed specifications.

At the moment, Whelen's TSO/FAR compliant LED products are at a price point that exclude them from being considered for my aircraft.

I also believe that Dan, Pete, and several others have been attempting to test products to the best of their abilities. We may not have access to sophisticated test rigs, but we can place products beside each other and tell which is brighter. It may be subjective, but it's the real world.
 
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When you have the reputation as the leader in the field and have most of the certified market (they do don't they?) people will just assume that anything you bring out is going to meet the requirements if you don't indicate otherwise.
Click to expand...

I did, and thus I owe Bob and Steve an apology....they were wise to question. I assumed the Microburst system had appropriate light levels but would lack the approvals for installation on certified aircraft, SOP in much current aviation marketing.

Odd. The Whelen brand, simple FAR compliance, and a $495 price would own the ex-av market.
 
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And then the thread died.................

How did the tests go ?

Where do guys stand now, a year or so later ?

We are about to spec up the lights for our 8 and the cost saving is very attractive.

But hey, we aren't allowed to fly at night, or in IMC in ANY homebuilt in the UK.

They're looking at night, but it will be a while I think.
 
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