New to the RV World!

[flyavater324]

Hi all,
If everything goes well, I’ll be a RV-6 owner in a few days. The sign off on my tail wheel says Orville W-something. The ink has faded… How many hrs am I going to need to be a adequate pilot of these machines? I know it’s a very broad ? I have 5500+ hrs. 1/3 in an Arrow II the rest in B Baron. The 50 or so hrs in a tail wheel were in a Citabria. I want a fun plane! Any idea how many hrs you guys and gals spent b4 u were comfortable? Thx for help.
Al

 

[Mike S]

Welcome to VAF

Al, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

 

[SPX]

Hi all,
If everything goes well, I’ll be a RV-6 owner in a few days. The sign off on my tail wheel says Orville W-something. The ink has faded… How many hrs am I going to need to be a adequate pilot of these machines? I know it’s a very broad ? I have 5500+ hrs. 1/3 in an Arrow II the rest in B Baron. The 50 or so hrs in a tail wheel were in a Citabria. I want a fun plane! Any idea how many hrs you guys and gals spent b4 u were comfortable? Thx for help.
Al

Too many variables to give you a meaningful answer. Based on what you’re describing, I’d guess maybe 5-10 hours.

 

[Freemasm]

Whatever number you end up with, make sure your insurance underwriter is in agreement.

 

[D-Dubya]

Your insurance carrier may want you to have some RV transition training since that Orville dude isn't available to vouch for you. Verify this before you fly any time as PIC. While these planes are very docile and fun to fly, there are some stories out there of "new to me" flights going awry. The previous owner may be able to give you some pointers on how he or she flies their plane as well.

 

[Mel]

Another thing: Pay close attention to CG. My -6 was toward the aft CG. I liked it that way because of maneuverability, but many experienced RV pilots had problems landing my airplane. Try to keep your CG forward, at least in the beginning.

 

[flyavater324]

Whatever number you end up with, make sure your insurance underwriter is in agreement.

Insurance only requires 3 hrs! I think of myself as a VERY GOOD Pilot. I’m so good, that I know what I don’t know and am not ashamed to admit it! Lol

 

[flyavater324]

Another thing: Pay close attention to CG. My -6 was toward the aft CG. I liked it that way because of maneuverability, but many experienced RV pilots had problems landing my airplane. Try to keep your CG forward, at least in the beginning.

Thanks! I’m already very aware of the CG issues of most every tail dragged. Hence, ground loops. But thx for the reply.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Thanks! I’m already very aware of the CG issues of most every tail dragged. Hence, ground loops. But thx for the reply.

The RV-6 has little to no tendency to ground loop even with aft CG. But pitch can get very sensitive when the CG goes aft due to lack of feel and feedback in the stick. This can make landings challenging for a pilot who isn't familiar with this tendency. The springy landing gear can quickly initiate a PIO which can end badly if the pilot isn't prepare to deal with it.

Get good transition training and enjoy your new ride!

 

[Mel]

The RV-6 has little to no tendency to ground loop even with aft CG. But pitch can get very sensitive when the CG goes aft due to lack of feel and feedback in the stick. This can make landings challenging for a pilot who isn't familiar with this tendency. The springy landing gear can quickly initiate a PIO which can end badly if the pilot isn't prepare to deal with it.
Get good transition training and enjoy your new ride!

Agree 100%!

 

[flyavater324]

The RV-6 has little to no tendency to ground loop even with aft CG. But pitch can get very sensitive when the CG goes aft due to lack of feel and feedback in the stick. This can make landings challenging for a pilot who isn't familiar with this tendency. The springy landing gear can quickly initiate a PIO which can end badly if the pilot isn't prepare to deal with it.

Get good transition training and enjoy your new ride!

Thanks for the input!

 

[DanH]

You will be assimilated...

 

[Martyrv6a]

+1 what Sam said. I have the -6A model which is the “auto-land” version. Be aware the CG moves aft with fuel burn so when two up with full baggage the stick gets very light in pitch when landing after a long x-country, and I have an O360 with CS prop!

 

[flyavater324]

I umderstand what PIO is. I’ve never experienced it or if I did it was so slow and recoverable I’ve never that twice about it. I guess I’m just going to have to fly it to understand what you nice peeps are telling me about the lack of stick?? How do you keep that from happening or inducing it? Thx as always!
Al

 

[flyavater324]

+1 what Sam said. I have the -6A model which is the “auto-land” version. Be aware the CG moves aft with fuel burn so when two up with full baggage the stick gets very light in pitch when landing after a long x-country, and I have an O360 with CS prop!

Mine has the O320 with fixed blade. Would I be correct with less hp and a fixed blade, this would be MORE of an issue?

 

[billytime1]

Don’t call vans for tech support on a 6

Welcome to vans forum. I’m building a six, I think they are awesome. Enjoy the community and the plane

 

[ronrapp]

I guess I’m just going to have to fly it to understand what you nice peeps are telling me about the lack of stick?? How do you keep that from happening or inducing it? Thx as always!
Al

I have an RV-6 with IO-360 and a ground-adjustable composite Sensenich propeller, so my CG is on the aft end of the envelope even with very little in the cargo area.

In my experience, when the airplane is in the roundout/flare, the aft CG manifests itself as a greater sensitivity in pitch. It's a little annoying to the OCD part of me that always wants a perfect landing, but I wouldn't call it unsafe. Just be aware of it, and if you see any PIO developing or you bounce the landing (mains first), just go around. A wheel landing may be preferable to a 3 point in this configuration. I'm split on them -- I do the 3 point and wheels in about equal number.

Even with me, my 8 year old son, and 100 lbs of baggage on board, I still come up within CG for takeoff and landing. It's close, but it works.

--Ron

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Mine has the O320 with fixed blade. Would I be correct with less hp and a fixed blade, this would be MORE of an issue?

My RV-6 is also O-320 with fixed metal Sensenich prop. What we are all stressing is the need for good, thorough transition training. The RV most likely has control forces during landing that are much lighter than anything you have flown, and it being a light aircraft means slight control inputs result in large pitch excursions. This is compounded by the design "feature" of gear legs that are too short to allow the wing to fully stall while landing three-point in a manner that is customarily seen with taildraggers. So landings can be abrupt unless precise airspeed control is maintained which requires familiarity with the airplane. Too fast by three knots and the infamous "RV Skip" occurs or three knots slow and it is an arrival instead of a landing. I transition trained with Mike Seager who has thousands of RV hours. I recall him telling me "The RV is easy to fly but challenging to fly precisely". Very true.

RV taildraggers have had prop strikes due to pilots not being prepared to address these factors (two at my airport, no, I wasn't one of them) which are compounded by the springy gear. But once you gain familiarity with the RV-6 you will love flying it. I've been flying mine for 24 years and it's still teaching me how to land.....but maybe I'm just a slow learner.

 

[DanH]

Sam is dead on, as usual. Back in 2010, the underwriter for my then brand new RV-8 asked for two hours of transition training, despite a fair bit of previous -8 time. So I hooked up with a CFI and his RV-6, a model I had never flown. It was an eye-opener.

I had been flying a Legend Cub for the previous year, so I was using control inputs way in excess of what was necessary. It was more pitch sensitive than the -8 I had been flying, unless the 8 was loaded way aft. And be aware of convex (bulged) aileron trailing edges, which will make roll really sensitive.

You didn't mention it, but if you're tall, do all you can to get the pedals as far forward as possible. Bad leg and foot angles can make a decent taildragger driver look like an idiot. Ask me how I know...

 

[Mel]

Sam is dead on, as usual. Back in 2010, the underwriter for my then brand new RV-8 asked for two hours of transition training, despite a fair bit of previous -8 time. So I hooked up with a CFI and his RV-6, a model I had never flown. It was an eye-opener.
I had been flying a Legend Cub for the previous year, so I was using control inputs way in excess of what was necessary. It was more pitch sensitive than the -8 I had been flying, unless the 8 was loaded way aft. And be aware of convex (bulged) aileron trailing edges, which will make roll really sensitive.
You didn't mention it, but if you're tall, do all you can to get the pedals as far forward as possible. Bad leg and foot angles can make a decent taildragger driver look like an idiot. Ask me how I know...

I always said that the RV-6 is easy to lane, but very difficult to land consistently.

Just about the time you think you've got it, it will surprise you.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I always said that the RV-6 is easy to lane, but very difficult to land consistently.

Just about the time you think you've got it, it will surprise you.

But it's not the RV's fault. When flown within the prime airspeed and sink rate window it nearly lands itself. But that window is small and is almost always a moving target due to gusts, turbulence and decaying airspeed. Those stubby wings are kinda demanding about wanting the pilot to keep them in their happy place.

The experienced RV-6 pilot realizes not every landing is going to be textbook and has learned how to work around it. This is the same as with any airplane but things happen quickly in the RV-6 close to the runway and the tail starts dropping. RV-6A drivers are probably wondering what we are discussing.

Have we mentioned the importance of good transition training?

 

[plehrke]

RV-6A drivers are probably wondering what we are discussing.

I was waiting for the invite.
Hundreds of landings in my C140 but built a 6A. Landing my 6A is just a gentle, steady pull to arrest the sink and then let it settle as speed bleeds off. (A bit of aileron for the cross wind). I dont push the stick forward as you are asking for trouble.
I know, not relative to original post.

 

[sailvi767]

Another thing: Pay close attention to CG. My -6 was toward the aft CG. I liked it that way because of maneuverability, but many experienced RV pilots had problems landing my airplane. Try to keep your CG forward, at least in the beginning.

I can confirm what Mel is posting. My 6 had the CG near the aft portion of the range. Removal of a tail strobe power pack and installation of a light weight tail wheel transformed the aircraft!

 

[RV8JD]

Congrats on the new RV-6! I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Here are four articles by Van himself that may be of interest to new RV pilots. I included the nose gear-related article for completeness.

Articles: "How to Fly an RV", "How to Land an RV", "How to Land an RV, Part 2", and "How to Fly a Nose Gear RV".​

BTW, Some folks will argue that transition training is not a "must". That may be true for a small segment of the pilot population. But consider this information from Mike Seager (who has given the most transition training in RV's, bar none) when questioned by Van himself:

 

[RWoodard]

I’ve helped a few different folks transition into flying RV’s from normal, type certificated factory built aircraft and find 2 consistently recurring themes.

1. A tendency to over control because no matter how much you tell them it’s a fingertip plane, they still death grip it and over control. Their first comment is that they don’t think the plane EVER needs any trim… because they can’t feel the need for trim due to the aforementioned death grip. The next phase is that they start reaching for trim in stabilized flight. The need-for-trim trim realization phenomenon progresses to the point where they eventually trim appropriately almost all the way to the ground. The tendency to over control follows the same progression. It starts in stabilized flight where altitude excursions become dampened and the tendency to give their instructor (me) and themselves motion sickness eventually subsides. I find that folks instinctively realize that things get a little more critical as the plane approaches terra firma so the last 50’ above the ground and continuing to touch down is always the last phase of over controlling to disappear. Most folks are 95% or more ready to solo by the time they get to this point.

2. This applies mostly to O-360 equipped with constant speed props… Be mindful of a pretty significant sink rate with the power at idle. I’ve flown things that come down quicker, but not many. This can surprise the typical Bonanza or Mooney pilot. I encourage folks to advance gently into power off 180 approaches. We do a few demonstrations and a few supervised approaches and I encourage them to keep learning on their own, but realize this can bite them if not respected.

Ok… there’s a 3rd thing I see in almost every transition: A big ‘ol RV Grin. They almost never want to go back to a Spam Can!