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New fuel tank SB (13-12-19 released and effective December 19, 2013)

I would rather have the tanks in the wings both for the perceived safety factor and for the additional baggage space.

However, I remember, in my almost 50 years of flying, numerous post crash fires in planes with wing fuel tanks. Just this past fall a Cessna 150 with two aboard crashed and burned at the departure end of runway 25 at Anchorage Merrill Field. Fatal. Not too many years prior a C-206 crashed and burned departing the same runway. Overloaded and one (maybe more) fatality.

Point is, there are many instances of post crash fires in planes with fuel in the wings. Will it be worse in the -12. Don't know. I would be more worried about being able to get out of a plane like this or similar that flipped on impact.
 
Chatter

In the cabin or in the wings, fuel tanks are not the cause of "crashes". In the NTSB report, landing on a narrow short private grass strip (with high berms) in a crosswind were factors. In a high wing Cessna the fuel tanks are a foot or less from the pilot/Passengers head. Is that "stupid" ?
 
For the record, I never called the fuselage tank "stupid." And, not on this thread - I commented on the pluses and minuses of the body tank on a thread going on on the General Forum.

Actually, I defended the body tank on that post - but questioned its virtues going forward.

The body tank is driven by the removable wings. It was an attractive feature - actually, it was the feature I was most interested in when I began my LSA search. My very first post on VAF concerned finding a suitable trailer, since I was unable to find hangar space. Trailering home looked like my only solution. Comments at the time, and since, have indicated trailering is not as viable as initially envisioned. Certainly, Vans has done little to promote this scheme. Occasionally, people post about home-brewed trailers, either contemplated or under construction.

The negative comments on trailering turned out to be correct - at least in my case - as I would no longer consider that in my current circumstances. Actually, I do not envision removing the wings ever again - altho, of course - I might. Likewise, I do not plan to remove the fuel tank ever again - altho that too seems to be an elusive goal.

When Boeig designs an airplane, they create a DR&O -Document - Design Requirements and Objectives. I was raised with that thinking, and apply it to everything I do. For the RV-12, the DR&O called out the ability to trailer - others used folding wings, Vans decided to remove them. From what I've read, Van, who is a sailplane fan, envisioned something along the lines of those sailplae trailers you can see at fields where soaring is common. Unfortunately, that vision never came to fruition, so the DR&O took a big shift - but the airplane design was already in concrete. It drove the single big main wing spar design, established the layout, and determined the CG. Definitely, moving the fuel out to the wings would back-drive a lot of changes into the airframe - probably more changes than would be considered practical, without a new clean-sheet-of-paper design.

The body tank was one fallout of the design goals, as it was probably decided early that wing fuel presented many more challenges, including connecting and disconnecting fuel lines repeatedly, and the serious problems of removing , transporting, and re-installing wings that had fuel in them.

So, the body tank was born. Problem is, with folks not removing the wings, that accomodation has become a problem. IMHO the body tank has definitely become a liability for the airplane - especially for the store bought crowd with A&Ps needing to pull the tank annually (unless Vans finally releases a split bulkhead change.) It would definitely work against the airplane becoming a standard FBO trainer.

The body tank has become a prime area of Plans changes and Service Bulletins. A veritable hotbed - in itself indicating the difficulties with the feature. So far, the tank has generated:

An early filler neck relocation
Sight glass material and installation change
A structural beef-up and support bolt change
An anti-rotation plate mod
A fuel gage installation
Sight glass elimination
A rear cabin window sealing addition
Added Installation of nutplates on the filler neck flange
A revised venting scheme
A second structural beef-up and second support bolt change.

As Scott has pointed out, many of these redsigns have involved a lot of test articles, analysis, and destructive testing. Expensive for the mothership.

Most of these changes open the door to creating problems where there were none - like accidentally shearing the frangible bolts, creating new tank fuel leaks, creating unremoved tank debris, feed and return line connection leaks. And draining the tank is downright dangerous. The new vent tubing presents opportunities for damage by baggage moving around. And more disconnections when removing the tank.

I'm an engineer, and don't expect every design to be perfect right off the board. Development is the word for honing and improving your initial design. The above list shows that there has been quite a lot of honing going on. And, as many posters have noted, Vans has stepped up to the plate and made the changes and improvements. The question is, how close are we to the end of the improvement process? And, at what point do you start to question your original goals and assumptions?

Scott discussed the two force vectors - horizontal and vertical (in a down direction), or a combination of those, that affected the loads imposed on the body tank during a crash sequence. . To my knowledge, no RV-12s have flipped, but lots of other RVs have. I wonder what the force vectors would be on a body tank full of fuel that has a vertical force in a vertical UP direction - which would be down when the airplane is upside down -even a slow flip - like the one that broke the necks of those two people discussed on the Main forum. This will create yet another fault path load vector, and the result of a failure in this scenario, could be ugly. Maybe the design team has already worked this situation. Maybe not. Info from the mothership is sometimes sparse. If not, will another accident - one involving a flip, result in yet another SB and another round of beef-ups. Time will tell - I hope I'm not the one to find out!

The body tank definitely needs to go. I've only come to that opinion in the recent past. This latest SB was sort of the straw for this old camel. I discussed this recently on the general Forum, if you missed it. It has too many defects from a maintenance and operational standpoint, and potentially unaddressed remaining safety issues.

My airplane has about 80-100 lbs of wasted Useful Load - that's as bad as a Skycatcher, which has too little Useful Load. Put a 15 gal tank in each wing, make the wings removable for maintenance only, get rid of the maintenance problems, the venting problems, the windshield crazing problems, the baggage space problems, the tail access problems, the crash-safety problems, add range and regain the lost Useful Load.

Will this ever happen? Probably not. And, if it does, likely not retrofittable, so it's all academic for the current crowd. But, if I were a big flight school, and wanted to buy 100 Trainers from Vans, I'd certainly have my list of Requirements. Getting rid of the body tank might be right up there. It was a good idea at the outset, but its Time has come. I don't think it's "stupid." I do think its original goal has disappeared and it has become a burden on both the manufacturer and the operators.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well-stated, Bob. I SO wish I would have built wing tanks, like Oren H. did, and like Joe Dallas is currently doing.

Oren has many hours on his plane now (and won Kit Outstanding Workmanship at OSH!), and from all of my conversations with him, he hasn't had any issues with his wing tank design.

yssd.jpg
 
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The body tank has become a prime area of Plans changes and Service Bulletins. A veritable hotbed - in itself indicating the difficulties with the feature. So far, the tank has generated:

An early filler neck relocation A change made from the prototype before any fuse. kit was ever sold
Sight glass material and installation change
A structural beef-up and support bolt change
An anti-rotation plate mod
A fuel gage installationDone out of response to what customers wanted
Sight glass elimination Done because of installation of mech. gage that customers wanted(redundant)
A rear cabin window sealing addition
Added Installation of nutplates on the filler neck flange Done for convenience
A revised venting scheme (original system worked just fine... simply an improvement)
A second structural beef-up and second support bolt change.

My point? You said "Primary... there has been changes throughout the entire airplane. Listing just the ones for the fuel tank, to make it look like it is the only thing that has required any attention is called skewing data to make a point.



The new vent tubing presents opportunities for damage by baggage moving around. And more disconnections when removing the tank.

I would guess you haven't installed it... it is entirely protected behind the fuel filler tube.

Scott discussed the two force vectors - horizontal and vertical (in a down direction), or a combination of those, that affected the loads imposed on the body tank during a crash sequence. . To my knowledge, no RV-12s have flipped, but lots of other RVs have. I wonder what the force vectors would be on a body tank full of fuel that has a vertical force in a vertical UP direction - which would be down when the airplane is upside down -even a slow flip - like the one that broke the necks of those two people discussed on the Main forum. This will create yet another fault path load vector, and the result of a failure in this scenario, could be ugly. Maybe the design team has already worked this situation. Maybe not. Info from the mothership is sometimes sparse. If not, will another accident - one involving a flip, result in yet another SB and another round of beef-ups. Time will tell - I hope I'm not the one to find out!

The tests required by the S-LSA ASTM's cover that. The loads I was talking about are what is translated into the landing gear in different scenarios.



My airplane has about 80-100 lbs of wasted Useful Load - that's as bad as a Skycatcher, which has too little Useful Load. Put a 15 gal tank in each wing, make the wings removable for maintenance only, get rid of the maintenance problems, the venting problems, the windshield crazing problems, the baggage space problems, the tail access problems, the crash-safety problems, add range and regain the lost Useful Load.

I will just write that comment off to being caused by only having experience with heavy aircraft weighing tens of thousands.
The RV-12 is already very competitive with other popular LSA's and has a very good useful load when compared to the completion. If it could have its empty weight reduced by even 75 lbs, I think it would be approaching being the lightest in its class, in the world. I doubt that designing out the removable wings and using wing tanks would reduce it by even half that.


If the poster were being fair, he would probably have to admit that from the time that Boeing flew the first example of any airplane he was involved in the development of, to a few years into customer delivery's, they probably had made enough changes that their was an entire department employed just to keep track of them all.
 
Where is the wasted useful load? Fuel in the wings still carries weight.

Scott

Thanks for the clear explanation of things. Some builders will never be happy. As a first time rv builder I would like to thank Vans Engineering and customer "listening" department for making these upgrades also known as service bulletins. Can they be a pain. Yea. But for good reason.
 
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Scott - I think you misinterpreted pretty near my entire post.

The RV-12 empty weight is terrific and the Useful Load is sensational - I brag about it. Useful Load is in many ways the mark of an airplane. But, after contemplating it - I leave a lot of weight on the table. It could be used for more fuel. Maybe it could have been used for a higher empty weight, inserting some structural weight into some areas to increase the robustness of the airplane.

Not too many airplanes leave weight on the table - most are the exact opposite - forcing you to go with half gas if you want to carry all the pax and bags you desire.

Despite what you say, I don't recall a lot of builder changes involving the wings, or empennage - a few to the fuselage and firewall, and of course the big MLG beef-up. But, there have been a lot to the body tank. Maybe some were responses to operator requests, and maybe some weren't. But there have been quite a few.

I gave you all the kudos and allowances for improving designs and working the bugs out, so your Boeing comments are without merit. I spent over 30 years fixing problems in Boeing airplanes. I KNOW what that's all about. But, I also spent 30 years getting yelled and screamed at by the airlines, by the factory, by the FAA - and, like the military - any answer except "No Excuse, Sir!" was unacceptable.

I don't know why you seem to take any and all comments as criticism and in a personal way. I thought my comments were balanced and constructive. But, in the end, they're just my two cents worth - if you don't like them, well, two cents ain't much.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Where is the wasted useful load? Fuel in the wings still carries weight.

Scott

Thanks for the clear explanation of things. Some builders will never be happy. As a first time rv builder I would like to thank Vans Engineering and customer "listening" department for making these upgrades also known as service bulletins. Can they be a pain. Yea. But for good reason.

This was discussed in posts on the Main Forum:

Empty Weight = 742 lbs
Fat pilot
 
Where is the wasted useful load? Fuel in the wings still carries weight.

Scott

Thanks for the clear explanation of things. Some builders will never be happy. As a first time rv builder I would like to thank Vans Engineering and customer "listening" department for making these upgrades also known as service bulletins. Can they be a pain. Yea. But for good reason.

This was discussed in posts on the Main Forum:

N737G

Empty Weight = 742 lbs
Fat pilot = 210
Skinny wife = 110 (actually more like 104)
Full fuel = 120
Max bags = 50

Take-off Wt = 1232 lbs

Max T/O Wt = 1320 lbs

Unused available weight = 88 lbs

Guess I could trade for a heavier spouse, or carry a heavier pax, but, even if I did, I can't see carrying 50 lbs of baggage, so even with another 210 pounder, I'd probably still be about 30 lbs under MTOW.

30 gals of fuel would add a nominal 60 lbs (plus the added weight, of course, of a two tank system), which would use some of that available weight.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
new tank mod

I just completed my annual condition inspection 4 weeks ago. A couple months before the insp. I installed the the first iteration of the frangible bolt/tank mod. Since the insp. did the gear leg mod, the oil tank support brkt mod, the moller fuel gauge mod (my choice), added the lighting kit with it's associated mods (my choice as since I experienced a mid air last year on VFR clear I wanted others to be better able to see my airplane by always flying with lights turned on). I am not complaining, but I loathe working on the tank. Not only is it a hazard to pull it out every annual insp. we risk damaging the tank every time which may produce a leak at some inappropriate time (not like there IS an apprpriate time). In addition I had to do a new sending unit, and added the Moller as stated earlier. Also again not complaining, but the idea of the new mod to tank being a 5.5 hr operation is a laugh. I'm not the fastest draw in the west, and for example the gear leg mod allegedly a weekend job took me about 80 hrs. Installing the lights took two weeks. I have not flown my 12 since Sept. 29th and while the first 4 weeks were beyond my control the rest has been work time. Now granted my time running back and forth to the airport is my problem as is running about buying new tools etc etc etc., but it nonetheless takes time. I will not install the new mod until next annual as I have the option. Maybe there will be another tank mod between now and then which would save me some time by doing both at the same time. After all folks I believed the first frangible bolt mod solved the problem.
I feel better now that I have had my say because as I stated earlier I am not complaining just airing out the facts. I do appreciate Vans addressing these important issues.
I think I will seriously consider buying a new fully modified tank from Vans at next annual, and section the baggage compartment plate to avoid ever pulling tank again. At least not until the next tank mod.
Dick Seiders 120093
Oops! Forgot I am doing the water resistant mod (Boelube/rtv) tomorrow.
 
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I don't know why you seem to take any and all comments as criticism and in a personal way. I thought my comments were balanced and constructive. But, in the end, they're just my two cents worth - if you don't like them, well, two cents ain't much.

Bob Bogash
N737G

I guess you get that reaction because (some) of your postings have such a negative undertone. The sum-up of the fuel tank is exaggerated.
Is it still allowed to say that I'm very happy with the removable wings and the tank the way it is?

The plane is still relative new, wait another 5 years and all mods/improvements are included in the build.

But, I also spent 30 years getting yelled and screamed at by the airlines, by the factory, by the FAA - and, like the military

Don't forget the pilots, hopefully Boeing makes a plane in the future where a European sized person can sit in the flight deck without bumping his head and legs all the time.

Don't take this all as criticism ......
 
Hey, I LOVE my -12 Dutchman, and I've posted on it repeatedly. I love the looks and flying qualities and performance. I brag about it to everyone who sees it.

But I also love my wife, but, she isn't perfect, and neither am I. And neither is the -12. Or those Boeings.....

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Also again not complaining, but the idea of the new mod to tank being a 5.5 hr operation is a laugh.

Keep in mind that the quoted time is what is being credited for professionals, working in a professional shop, doing the mod. on the tank when it has already been removed during a condition inspection.
 
Scott - I think you misinterpreted pretty near my entire post.

I don't think so, but apparently I did regarding your comments on useful load.

If you feel that the RV-12 has far more useful load than is needed, I think are are one (maybe the only) of a very small minority.
 
Scott,

In the Navy we said if a sailor wasn't complaining he wasn't alive! Don't take our gripes personally. They aren't meant to be. The nature of the forum is to discuss problems, not how great everything is. I know Vans has made these improvements to the tank in an effort to give us a better product, but from the comments it appears the current configuration is not popular with the customers. I know a wing tank retrofit is probably not going to happen, but the suggestion of a low profile heavy poly tank seems like a good way to maintain the wing removal feature and address many of the perceived drawbacks.

Does Vans use this website informally for design change suggestions?

Rich
 
It's not really the tank itself that's the problem. It's the rigid connection of the tank to the channel. I'm sure Vans will have considered lots of ways of restraining the tank, but I still can't help wondering if bolting the tank to the channel with a simple plate strap that could deform if required wouldn't avoid the problems that have occured.
 
Bob,

Many of us just don't like having the gas in the cockpit. When I built the tank the gaps at the corners plugged only by ProSeal seemed scary. I don't think I'll ever like having the tank there, but a thick walled poly tank would make me feel better.

Rich
 
It is not possible to mold a poly tank with flow control baffling inside to keep fuel at the outlet in all attitudes (kind of important).
Even if it could be done, it would be very expensive at the production volume that would be needed for the RV-12.

BTW, those prosealed corners you are concerned about having been flying on every model of RV since the RV-4 was introduced over 30 years ago.
 
I can understand not liking fuel in the cockpit Rich, but whether having it in the wings or in a different type of tank is any better (maybe psychologically) is debatable, I think. Anyway, it's only a problem if you crash, so my plan is to try not to. :D
 
It is not possible to mold a poly tank with flow control baffling inside to keep fuel at the outlet in all attitudes (kind of important).
Even if it could be done, it would be very expensive at the production volume that would be needed for the RV-12.

The Sonex has been flying since 1998 with a 16 gal rotationally molded poly tank.
No internal baffles, and no issues with the pickup unporting. The tank has been thru some really nasty crashes without breaching. Get a quote on tooling and I think you'll be surprised. Downside is it's not as light as an aluminum tank.

Tony
 
I have no knowledge of how poly tanks are made, but one must ask just how Sonex does it? They seem to have had no problems with their tanks or baffling (or lack of baffling), and the cost for one is only $325.

It is not possible to mold a poly tank with flow control baffling inside to keep fuel at the outlet in all attitudes (kind of important).
Even if it could be done, it would be very expensive at the production volume that would be needed for the RV-12.

BTW, those prosealed corners you are concerned about having been flying on every model of RV since the RV-4 was introduced over 30 years ago.
 
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Can't plastic like that be ultrasonically welded? Spin or blow a tank with no internals, cut it in half (probably with the cut parallel to the floor), put in baffles, and weld it back together? (Hmmm... That might add something expensive to the tool list...)

Or, this sounds like an ideal app for 3D printing. Besides the baffles, you could even print the inside fuel return line.

I am happy with the RV12 Useful load. I can load 2 big guys, full fuel, and baggage, no problem. But an extra 5 gallons would be nice. But it would be important to not cover the baggage compartment floor plates any more than they currently are covered. And the tank is pretty "tight" getting it in and out as it is...
 
What would you recommend?

1) Purchase a new tank with all of the mods installed.

2) Install the current SB plus the Moeller gage and the fuel tank vent mod and do this all through the fuel sender opening.

3) Do #2 above but remove the tank top to perform the mods.

My preference is #1 but I am not sure if this option is available. When I talked to Van's technical support last week, they said that over the years, not many builders opted to purchase the completed tank option and was not sure if that option was still available.
 
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I just bought a prebuilt tank this year (before the SB's)...

Bob

Thanks Bob. The person I spoke with in technical support was going to check if Van's was going to re-introduce the pre-built tank option. It sounds like they may have recently discontinued that option due to low demand. I was asked to check back with them in about a week for an update.
 
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The Sonex has been flying since 1998 with a 16 gal rotationally molded poly tank.
No internal baffles, and no issues with the pickup unporting. The tank has been thru some really nasty crashes without breaching. Get a quote on tooling and I think you'll be surprised. Downside is it's not as light as an aluminum tank.

Tony

This looks like a tank intended to mount up high?...... fwd of the instrument panel?
Regardless of the material it is made of, a more fwd mounting location would not be a better choice than the current location. But, if a high mounting location is used, it does allow for a bottom shape that will keep fuel present at the outlet regardless of aircraft attitude (does away with the need for internal baffling). In the RV-12, doing that would eat up even more of the baggage space and some of the vocal owners say that is already not large enough.

BTW, a rotary molded tank is not the holy grail some think it is. If you do a little research you will find that some kit manufacturers that have used them have suffered through problems.
 
Seems like Vans is married to the current design. I guess if they keep telling us how great it is we will eventually believe it. Obviously us telling them it has shortcomings is not having that effect on them.
 
~800 kits sold is powerful that they got it "pretty right." It is just some clever engineering and a few parts that make the wings easily removable - it is not adding much weight and it is a feature that you don't have to use if you don't want to. But is really convenient in certain conditions - like painting in pieces.

Regarding the tank connection via the frangible bolt. OK, the bolt is really loaded in shear for vertical forces. Has to support a full tank when pulling +/-Gs. And the design and rotation issue is that we really want the bolt to fail early in a tension load. Well - wouldn't it have been better to have that support "sit on top" of the member it is currently bolted through? Like your hand when you are doing a pull-up? (Properly constrained for negative Gs.) Engineered in such a way as to not tear the tank open if the member rotates? Or what if the currently-frangible bolt did not go into a nutplate on the tank but just into a bushing? With some spacers to prevent the tank from moving forward (it is also bolted at the rear) the bolt would not even need to be frangible. It becomes a Pin. Or it could be an aluminum rod rather than a bolt, one that could bend but would still have the needed shear strength.

Oh well, too late now.
 
Regarding the tank connection via the frangible bolt. OK, the bolt is really loaded in shear for vertical forces. Has to support a full tank when pulling +/-Gs. And the design and rotation issue is that we really want the bolt to fail early in a tension load. Well - wouldn't it have been better to have that support "sit on top" of the member it is currently bolted through? Like your hand when you are doing a pull-up? (Properly constrained for negative Gs.) Engineered in such a way as to not tear the tank open if the member rotates? Or what if the currently-frangible bolt did not go into a nutplate on the tank but just into a bushing? With some spacers to prevent the tank from moving forward (it is also bolted at the rear) the bolt would not even need to be frangible. It becomes a Pin. Or it could be an aluminum rod rather than a bolt, one that could bend but would still have the needed shear strength.

All valid ideas Bill, and every single one of them was considered and kicked around, with the current design being the end result after considering all of the different design requirements... many of which are spelled out in the portion of the ASTM's that specify the design requirements for the fuel tank(s)
 
Started on modifying my fuel tank today for the vent and reinforcement mods. Took about 1.5 hours to prep (removing the access panel, designated rivets, and scraping cured proseal). Working the inside corners is a PIA, lots of flashlight and mirror time to see what is going on.

For those who want more capacity and safety may I suggest you look at installing an Aero Tec Labs fuel cell. They have a nice 29 gallon aluminum tank with a foam bladder that should take care of your crash safety concerns. Its only $2,000 and 6 inches wider than the stock RV-12 fuel tank.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/abt-suba129/overview/

Summit Racing also has several 20 gal welded aluminum fuel cell tanks with foam that are about the same dimensions as the RV-12 tank for $300, but you get to do all the engineering to mount it and plumb the fuel system.

Lastly, for someone who really wants to lead the way, have ATL make a custom fit foam fuel cell bladder for the stock RV-12 tank (less the baffles). You will most likely lose a couple of gallons of capacity, but I doubt you would ever have to worry about the tank bursting/leaking in a crash event. Cost should not be more than several thousand dollars. Here is the link to the designers worksheet to get you started:

http://www.atlinc.com/pdfs/dews.pdf

For reference the RV-12 tank is approximately 24"L x 18"W x 12"H (and not rectangular by any means). Perhaps someone will donate a tank to the cause for ATL to evaluate. :)

John Salak
RV-12 #120116 (EAB)
 
Now THAT is an inviting prospect, I like it plus the additional 9 gallons is a nice thing too. Does anyone familiar with this technology know how well it would work in regards to baffling and return fuel lines?

For those who want more capacity and safety may I suggest you look at installing an Aero Tec Labs fuel cell. They have a nice 29 gallon aluminum tank with a foam bladder that should take care of your crash safety concerns. Its only $2,000 and 6 inches wider than the stock RV-12 fuel tank.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/abt-suba129/overview/

RV-12 #120116 (EAB)
 
You would HAVE to remove such a larger, wider tank every annual to look under it. A split rear bulkhead (and starboard aft floor plate) would not help, you have to look into the channel with the fuel pump. I've seen a flat, removable 5 gallon poly tank that sits behind the pilot seat, equipped with a pump to transfer that fuel to the main tank in flight.

Scott, it was nice to hear that ideas like that were considered, even if not chosen. Thanks.
 
Checked back with Van's today about a replacement fuel tank. They are available for $755 and are on a six week back order.
 
Tank work

In response to Scott's etimated 5.5 hrs being done in Van's work environment, and with the professionals involved I have no problem with the estimate. I suspect tho that consideration should be given to the fact that 90% of us bldr/flyers out here in the other world likely require about 5 times the mod estimate usually forecast. This fact is what probably produces all the "oh s. " comments on most mods even tho we know they are best for us to make the airplane safe(r).
I will do the mod, or buy a new tank from Vans when the time comes. However, I have to wonder if there isn't a better way to secure the tank without attaching it to the very part of the structure which wants to rip the front (or possibly the rear) panel off when energized.
Dick Seiders 120093
 
One of the first solutions, after we heard of the first accident in the upper midwest was to install pins to secure the tank as opposed to bolts. The pins (headless slotted bolts) would pull thru the center section if the center section rotated due to a VERY hard landing. I am also, very interested what the downside is of this potential solution as opposed to pulling the tank AGAIN! Would appreciate ALL comments.
 
That seems to me to be the ideal solution. So the nutplate is kept and the pin screwed into it. How "tight" in the existing bolthole is this non- threaded part of the new pin? Since the member rotates rather than simply translates fore-aft, there may be some "catching" of the pin in the hold. (What is the radius of the rotation, which would determine how much potential there is for catching.) The longer the pin the more potential for this. Grease? A pin made of material that might bend a little bit but still carry the weight load? I'd sure rather pay -say - $50 for some engineered pins than install more doublers...
 
In response to Scott's etimated 5.5 hrs being done in Van's work environment, and with the professionals involved I have no problem with the estimate. I suspect tho that consideration should be given to the fact that 90% of us bldr/flyers out here in the other world likely require about 5 times the mod estimate usually forecast. This fact is what probably produces all the "oh s. " comments on most mods even tho we know they are best for us to make the airplane safe(r).
I will do the mod, or buy a new tank from Vans when the time comes. However, I have to wonder if there isn't a better way to secure the tank without attaching it to the very part of the structure which wants to rip the front (or possibly the rear) panel off when energized.
Dick Seiders 120093

One of the first solutions, after we heard of the first accident in the upper midwest was to install pins to secure the tank as opposed to bolts. The pins (headless slotted bolts) would pull thru the center section if the center section rotated due to a VERY hard landing. I am also, very interested what the downside is of this potential solution as opposed to pulling the tank AGAIN! Would appreciate ALL comments.

Sorry Dick, I might not have been completely clear. All S.B.'s are issued in the context of the continued airworthiness system for the S-LSA RV-12's (E-LSA's are piggy backed on that). So, the 5.5 hour estimate is what Van's will pay under warranty to an LSA service center to complete the work (that is what I meant by professionals doing the work). The ASTM that regulates the continued airworthiness process (yes, there is even one for that) requires the inclusion of the time required to complete.

Seriously, it shouldn't take anyone that had (or developed) the skills to succeed in building an RV-12 (I know that even as refined as the RV-12 kit is, it is still a big project) any more than about 8 hours to do (on a tank that has already been removed).

Using pins to hold the tank...
It might work just fine in some circumstances but probably not all.
There are failure conditions (remember I posted earlier that there is an infinite # of load scenarios) where the channel can begin to rotate and be bending the bolt (or pin if that was used), causing it to jamb in the 1/4" deep hole of the channel. This can cause a lot of friction and begin to breach the seal of the tank.
The new version bolts, along with adding the small doublers, are made so that they can take all of the required loads for the tank, but still pop the head and pull out of the channel even if they begin to deform.
So I guess the answer is that the recently released mod. has been physically tested and confirmed to work. If you choose to do anything else that seems like it should work... still might not. There are so many different variables.

Once again, I am sorry for the trouble this causes everyone, but it really isn't that bad to do, and once completed, I am highly confident you wont be messing with anything related to this problem again.
 
That seems to me to be the ideal solution. So the nutplate is kept and the pin screwed into it. How "tight" in the existing bolthole is this non- threaded part of the new pin? Since the member rotates rather than simply translates fore-aft, there may be some "catching" of the pin in the hold. (What is the radius of the rotation, which would determine how much potential there is for catching.) The longer the pin the more potential for this. Grease? A pin made of material that might bend a little bit but still carry the weight load? I'd sure rather pay -say - $50 for some engineered pins than install more doublers...

Bill posted while I was typing my post. Good job Bill. You are pondering the right types of question and it is very relevant in this installation (see previous post).
 
Working on latest Tank SB & Vent

I am doing both tank mod and vent. I'd say 10 hours serious work NOT including removal and reinstall is about right. Not a fun job, messy as usual. Glad I did it. Waiting for stuff to dry now. By the way, one 3 1/2 Oz. of fuel tank sealant is plenty.
 
Moving target

This is a brief comment from someone who was has been seriously considering ordering an RV-12 kit:

It sure seems like there have a lot of changes. I would feel a lot better about placing an order if the design had been stable for at least a year.
 
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This is a brief comment was has been seriously considering ordering an RV-12 kit:

It sure seems like there have a lot of changes. I would feel a lot better about placing an order if the design had been stable for at least a year.

You would not say that if you were buying a computer would you?
Think of the RV-12 as a pack of aluminum sheets bundled with a computer :D
 
On the flip side of that comment, I for one am extremely happy that the design has continued to grow and improve thru these changes. Seriously, none of them have been dealbreakers, and all have been improvements to an already fine design. I would be disappointed with a company that did NOT do that.
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This is a brief comment was has been seriously considering ordering an RV-12 kit:

It sure seems like there have a lot of changes. I would feel a lot better about placing an order if the design had been stable for at least a year.
 
This is a brief comment was has been seriously considering ordering an RV-12 kit:

It sure seems like there have a lot of changes. I would feel a lot better about placing an order if the design had been stable for at least a year.

I'm thinking having a design stable for at least a year might rank right up there with having a house that's finished. :) I've never seen one (house that is).

My 1967 Cessna 150 had a change, requiring parts to be changed, in Dec. of 2009, when it was 42 years old.

On the other hand there's certainly nothing wrong with waiting. For me personally, there hasn't been any changes coming down the pipe, that would of kept me, nor did keep me from getting started.

Jim
 
If I thought that my airplane had anything close to the reliability of a computer, I'd be walking!
 
RV12 polyethylene tank with fuel cel safety foam

Does anyone know why Vans doesn't provide a poly tanks like Sonex does with fuel cell safety foam to minimize slosh? It seems safer, would cost less and much easier to build/install.
 
Does anyone know why Vans doesn't provide a poly tanks like Sonex does with fuel cell safety foam to minimize slosh? It seems safer, would cost less and much easier to build/install.

See Scotts post #77 in this thread.
 
Does anyone know why Vans doesn't provide a poly tanks like Sonex does with fuel cell safety foam to minimize slosh? It seems safer, would cost less and much easier to build/install.

See the latest in poly tank design on page 53 of the Jan Sport Aviation(yellow jet on cover). It's mounted low and behind the pilot. And has to supply fuel at rates just a bit higher than a 912S :)

Tony
 
Does anyone know why Vans doesn't provide a poly tanks like Sonex does with fuel cell safety foam to minimize slosh? It seems safer, would cost less and much easier to build/install.
Just thinking out loud, but it could be as simple as the fact that they have the machinery to bend metal, so bending metal is what they do. It's not unlikely that they looked at the return on investing in new technology for a single entry in their fleet just isn't there.

There's nothing stopping a 3rd party from stepping in with a replacement tank, except for similar economics - how many would they have to sell the recoup the investment in custom design and engineering? How many 12 owners would be willing to make the change, especially if this latest SB is finally the last?
 
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