What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

kit prototype?

Not quite correct...

bigbill25 said:
What about market size? Anyone (Rec Pilots and Private Pilots) can fly an E-LSA RV-12, but only Private Pilots can fly the ExAB version. Thus, the market for the E-LSA is conceivably larger.

--Bill
Click to expand...

Actually this is not correct.

A sport pilot can fly any aircraft that since its original certification (this is an important point) has complied with the performance and max. weight requirements for an LSA aircraft.
This is what makes a sport pilot able to fly a Cub, Champ, etc. None of those aircraft have ever been certificated as an LSA aircraft but they meet the requirements and can be flow by a sport pilot.
An RV-12 (or any other kit with the proper performance specs) certificated as an E-Amateur built will be able to be flown by a sport pilot as long as it meets the performance requirements of a LSA aircraft (on your honor) and it is originally certificated at a max gross weight of 1320 lbs.

So...as I posted previously, the only benefit to certifying E-LSA is that a second owner can become certified to do the condition inspections.
 
BobMoe said:
Last year at SnF I sat in on the seminar presented by the people who give the 16 hour training courses. They made a huge point about getting the ELSA registration by 01/31/08. I couldn't understand what the big deal was either, but the one thing they stated was the value of a plane registered ELSA was worth $30,000 more than one that is Experimental.
Click to expand...

There is no big deal with getting an E-LSA registered by 01/31/08 UNLESS it has been flown under Part 103 rules already. Sometimes called a "heavy ultralight" or a "ultralight trainer" (2 seater - Part 103 exemption). Other than these aircraft, there is no requirement to get it registered by that date.

The comment about it being worth 30 grand more, nonsense. It may be worth a small bit more to someone that will take the 16 hour course. For those that hire an A&P to do their annuals, it really doesn't mean a thing. However, the guys presenting the seminar are in the business of selling training so they wouldn't have pointed that fact out to you.
 
Hal-san said:
Received this response from Ken Scott to my inquiry to Vans about status of kit prototype. Harold: just as soon as we have something concrete to report. Right now most of our effort is going into structural tests, ...
Click to expand...
It has been over a month since any word from Van's on the progress, kind of disappointing given the high level of anticipation and numbers interested... snippets will do, we're not looking for a novel. :confused:
 
RatMan said:
Other than these aircraft, there is no requirement to get it registered by that date.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here, The "existing aircraft E-LSA" rule (21.191(i)(1)) will go away on 1/31/2008. After that, to be certificated as E-LSA the aircraft must be built from an E-LSA kit, of which there are none (except for a PPC), or downgraded from an S-LSA.
 
InsideOut said:
It has been over a month since any word from Van's on the progress, kind of disappointing given the high level of anticipation and numbers interested... snippets will do, we're not looking for a novel. :confused:
Click to expand...

Amen...

Even an occasional photo showing a few build details of the new prototype. In addition to maintaining interest, it would allow us to get some idea of the process, allowing for further (separate) research and education in preparation for my build.

DJ
 
InsideOut said:
It has been over a month since any word from Van's on the progress, kind of disappointing given the high level of anticipation and numbers interested... snippets will do, we're not looking for a novel. :confused:
Click to expand...

And yet if they release some early information which is later found to be different or inaccurate. This group will tear their head off and spit on them, just check the Pmag, or Subie, or Cessna/China threads.

Patience will be rewarded.
 
hydroguy2 said:
And yet if they release some early information which is later found to be different or inaccurate. This group will tear their head off and spit on them, just check the Pmag, or Subie, or Cessna/China threads.
Click to expand...

I find your general opinion of this group to be generally wrong. I don't find this group highly critical of Vans. In fact Vans should be flattered that people are very interested in what they are doing. Its not the design police waiting to pounce. Its curious people that trust Vans engineering enough to be curious of their progress.

People that are interested in a specific homebuilt airplane are interested in more than the finished product. Knowledge about the product is as important as the product itself. Its an intergral part of the package. EAA was started as an education process so pilots could have a hobby that satisfies their curiosity about aircraft design and function. What better way to learn than by regular progress reports from the factory as they develop and test the plane?

I'm not suggesting that communicating this is easy but what I am suggesting is that todays homebuilt buyer expects more than just the final kit. The learning about the plane is also an expected part of the deal.

Rans sensed that and posted regular progress reports all along the way and had quite a following.

Forums like this exist because people want to learn.

It also appears that Vans supporters like yourself are much more sensitive about the potential criticism of Vans products than Van is himself. I think he has more confidence in himself and his products than that.

I join the other voices is suggesting that regular updates from Vans would be welcomed and appreciated.

Frank
 
still waiting...

With so little information forthcoming, it been very difficult to keep my wife "interested" in my future RV-12 project. I've been following the development of the RV-12 since the forth quarter of 2005 and hang on every picture, word, rumor, video, forum post, magazine article or update available.

Just took my wife flying today in a rented Tecnam P-92 Super Echo and when i landed back at Sebring Regional Airport the dealer showed me a beautiful new Tecnam Bravo that was ready to go and available today, awesome plane and equipped lavishly, but unfortunately it was more than I want to spend... also heard of a 1947 Ercoupe 415 D sport plane in my price range, no build time necessary. Do I buy a sport plane as old as I am, and skip the building process altogether??

I have the need, therefore the desire to build an airplane... wonder if my reason to build is valid though... I want a NEW sport plane, and an RV-12 is in my price range; Van's has a great track record and reputation so I'll build it because I "have" to... not because I "want" to. I do hope I enjoy the building process like so many others here have enjoyed it. I wish I could go out and buy that Bravo. But I WILL build the RV-12 and do a good job.

It's been such a long waiting period for the RV-12 (not complaining, just stating a fact... can't imagine how difficult it is to bring a new airplane to market; FAA regulations, structural tests, CAD drawings, instructions, designs, manufacturing, etc ... and a wing that stalled at too great a speed didn't help speed the process)... and with so little information of late I just ...... I'm only human.

If you care to see my wife and I in the Tecnam P-92 Super Echo...here's the site...3 short videos http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jerryg150&search=Search... she's my first and only passenger since I became a sport pilot last year. I just love to fly!

Hope no one minds my thinking out loud so to speak, not a great post. It's just been so so so long a wait, not even counting the build time...You fellows on this forum are the only ones who know what I'm (we're) going thru...
 
FrankS said:
I find your general opinion of this group to be generally wrong. I don't find this group highly critical of Vans.....(snip)......

Forums like this exist because people want to learn.

It also appears that Vans supporters like yourself are much more sensitive about the potential criticism of Vans products than Van is himself. ........
Frank
Click to expand...

You're right. I shouldn't have lumped the whole group in my assessment. But am standing by my claim that "some" people will be very critical of the final product if it didn't turn out exactly like "they were told" early in the development.

I wasn't around these forums or message boards during any of the other RV developments. How many press releases were posted during that work? I think the Vans engineers and crew are still perfecting the whole package, why release something that's not finalized.

I have the highest regard for Vans and am certain they will deliver an outstanding product.

I have been in the RV-12 and flown the Rans S-19. I'm building a RV-7 and helped build a Rans S-6. Both good companies, but are different. One chooses to wait until all is ready, the other chose to sell kits before the prototype even flew. Just different way of doing business.

Didn't mean to offend.:eek:
 
FrankS said:
I'm not suggesting that communicating this is easy but what I am suggesting is that todays homebuilt buyer expects more than just the final kit. The learning about the plane is also an expected part of the deal.
Click to expand...
Van's will sell as many RV-12s as they want whether they communicate or not. Their costs, and hence the kit costs, will be lower if they don't expend too much effort on communication. How much communication are you willing to pay for?
 
Oh, then there's the whole competitive angle . . .

Maybe we need to remember that it is a competitive marketplace? Too much info too soon - not only allows us to pick it apart if we were so inclined(but why?) but also those representing the other offerings. It's a hard line to walk. Even though I'm not in the market for it, I think Vans has done an admirable job at keeping us informed. Which would you have the engineers doing anyway? Banging out daily blogs to feed the rumor mill or doing FEA? DUH!

Really, it's a simple equation - you trade $ for your labor. Otherwise, there are quite a few LAS low wing bubble canopy rotax powered goofy looking blobs out there for you to chose from now. It's not like performance is a big question in this class, it's upper end is fixed by mandate.

Rick 90432 Wings
 
Curious Responses

Some people log onto this forum not expecting to buy an RV-12 and not expecting any information from Vans. So why do they even log on? To flame others that are requesting information about the 12? I think I get it. They didn't get this type of information before they bought their kit so they don't want anyone else to expect that kind of information either.

I think some RV'rs are offended that Vans has even entered the LSA arena when that has been his personal goal for years. He has just been waiting for the right market to develop. In fact I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the RV-12 might respresent some of the most advanced engineering effort that has come out of Vans to date (with perhaps the exception of the high end RV-10). The tact that Vans has taken is not a "me too" style of LSA and I am very intrigued to watch how they work out the subtle details to make this design work. In spite of the negative comments from other RVr's about it's appearance I think the 12 is an engineering marvel to behold.

Fortunately for us the flamers do not respresent Vans company well as Vans has been consistently heading in the direction of providing more information about their designs throughout the companies history.

As for the expense of communication, the RVator which was a paid subscription is now offered free on line. Go figure. I think Vans get's it.

So, that is why I encourage others to voice their interest in more information about the 12 in spite of the protests of other RV builders.

My suggestion is that Vans adds a section to the RVator for the RV-12 update. That way information is distributed on a regular basis (6 times per year). They already have the information. Writing it up for the RVator would not take significantly more effort. And it would allow the regular RV-12 forum attendees that are interesting in buying an LSA kit to put their flame retardent suits away.

Frank
 
more info

I think you cant really update anything if there is nothing new to update JMO. I know that when building you are whacking away on the parts and pieces, and each day you get someting done. But what really is there to report? "Oh today I drilled, deburred and clecoed into place the little whing ding that holds the what not together". WOW

I doubt if Vans Aircraft will have anything to say until the kit prototype actually flies. There really isnt anything else to know until then. Im happy with that because I know that the folks at Vans are the best in the business. I also know that the holidays are coming on, the weather is bad, and there is more than just fitting a bunch of skins onto stringers going on. Tooling, outside vendor parts, documentation, production set ups, etc. Im happy to wait for the news cause I bet it will be good, and maybe I will get to build one in 2008. :)

Hey Happy Holidays to everyone.
 
Mel said:
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here, The "existing aircraft E-LSA" rule (21.191(i)(1)) will go away on 1/31/2008. After that, to be certificated as E-LSA the aircraft must be built from an E-LSA kit, of which there are none (except for a PPC), or downgraded from an S-LSA.
Click to expand...

Yep, right again Mel. That's the point I made as well. You will have to read the comment I was replying to in order to understand my point but basically, the guys he was listening to was selling training. They were using the Jan 31 08 date as a point for their "hurry up and get trained" sales pitch. That date doesn't have anything to do with what they are trying to sell.

The date only concerns people that own aircraft affected by the 31 Jan date.
 
Last edited:
Mel said:
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here, The "existing aircraft E-LSA" rule (21.191(i)(1)) will go away on 1/31/2008. After that, to be certificated as E-LSA the aircraft must be built from an E-LSA kit, of which there are none (except for a PPC), or downgraded from an S-LSA.
Click to expand...

Mel,
Looks like you are right on. This is from EAA. No ELSA after 02-08 except from kit.

Q & A:
Question of the Week
I am currently building a Zenith STOL CH701 from plans. There has been much discussion as of late regarding the E-LSA deadline. Will the CH701 be registered as an E-LSA if I complete it later this year or next or will I have to register it as an experimental amateur-built? Also, is there a list of kits that will qualify for E-LSA?

Answer:
No, your CH701 will not be certificated as an E-LSA. It will be certificated as experimental amateur-built (E-AB). There is no method for certificating your kit under E-LSA after the January 31, 2008, deadline.

However, since the aircraft fits the LSA definition, it will be eligible to be operated by sport pilots even though it is certificated as E-AB.

There are currently no kits on the market that qualify for E-LSA certification under the "post-January 31" rules. Thus there is no list of E-LSA kits at the present time.
 
Kit Prototype

I called Vans on Thursday Jan 17, and they said that engineering is looking to release the kit around the end of Feburary. They must be getting close to having it ready for test flights.

I am anxious to place my order, but I must say that my primary focus is quality, not schedule. This is one of the reasons I decided to build an RV. I would rather have the schedule slip, and know that the final product is safe to take my friends and family (and me too:D) for a ride. I think that the nearer we get to a release date, the more impatient we will get, and as a result it will be easier to say nasty things about a really good company that has all of our best interests at heart.

So, as the time twiddles by, I will go back to my garage and see if there is anything else that I can do to streamline the building process when the kit is available.

BTW, the following is a list of things I am doing or have done to my garage.
1. Install lots of shelves
2. Install sliding doors to cover the shelves so the wife "likes" my project work area (I like it better too!)
3. Build a sturdy work bench at one end. The bigest I could install was 3foot by 7 foot. I leveled it with some home made "levelers" that I made from heavy duty bolts.
4. Install 7 dual tube flourescent tubes with electronic ballasts. This will be necessary if the temperature is cold. Otherwise the lamps will take a loooong time to start up
5.Speaking of cold, I installed 2 electric heaters with timers to turn them on at 6am, and off at 9am.
6.I am currently installing a ventalation fan to "suck out" fumes from paint, epoxy, etc. Since my garage is attached, I dont want the smell going into the kitchen (right over the garage!!!!). My thinking is that when I paint, I can do it at the end of the day just before bed time, and then turn the fan on so it can do its job while we are sleeping.
7. I am going to paint the floor. I just got some gray 2 part epoxy paint from Griot's Garage. Note: I decided to install the ventalation fan before this project!

Oh yea, I forgot...I also installed a 42 inch LCD flat panel TV to help pass the time while deburring. I also forgot to mention the futon for when I need a break or want to read blue prints. Also a fridge for sodas. Can't find room for a coffee pot though. Guess I will have to occasionally make a trip upstairs and visit with the family when I need some java:)
 
Last edited:
Alan Gilmore said:
Oh yea, I forgot...I also installed a 42 inch LCD flat panel TV to help pass the time while deburring.
Click to expand...

Hopefully you won't have much deburring to do...I thought this kit was really going to minimize the deburring and dimpling with pulled rivets. I still like the idea of a 42" LCD though! :)
 
Wow!

42 inch LCD? The panel bay be that wide (just), but I didn't think it was that high ;-)
 
It's a beautiful sunny day in the Willamette valley. If Van was going to be flight testing on a production rig, this would be his first good day in the past month...

--Bill
 
JBPILOT said:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/12_update_01_08.pdf

Just read this on the Van's site. Progress.

John Bender
Iowa
Click to expand...

You beat me to it - just saw that document and was going to mention it. If they were still assembling the airframe 5 days ago, it is pretty much a given that they aren't able to take advantage of the clear (but cold) weather that has been happening in their part of the country to perform flight tests!

Too bad it wont be pink! ;)
 
Update

Well, it looks like the info. reported earlier about it being 'maybe' ready end of Feb. is possible I guess. They do know how to write an article stressing doing it right, maybe not fast. Nice to see even little blurbs coming from them.

John Bender
Iowa
 
RV12 Serial #2 is registered with FAA

First time posting to this forum but have been following for several months. Was just looking at aircraft registrations on the FAA website and noted that RV-12 serial number 2, N412RV was registered with the FAA on 2/15/08. This is new since last Friday when I last looked. Anxiously awaiting news of the first flight!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top