Is Using Zip Ties Safe?

[PhatRV]

I used them throughout the plane. I didn't know how to lace the wires. Apparently, the folks at the Intuitive company that successfully landed on the Moon used zipties throughout their Moon lander. I know that we in aviation overthink a lot of things but here is the proof that zip ties are on the Moon.

Intuitive Machines lands on the moon

A robotic lander developed by Intuitive Machines landed safely on the moon Feb. 22, becoming the first privately developed spacecraft to land there.

spacenews.com

Picture of the lander overlooking the Moon. Look at all the zip ties wrapping the cable bundles closest to the camera.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

I used them throughout the plane. I didn't know how to lace the wires. Apparently, the folks at the Intuitive company that successfully landed on the Moon used zipties throughout their Moon lander. I know that we in aviation overthink a lot of things but here is the proof that zip ties are on the Moon.

Intuitive Machines lands on the moon

A robotic lander developed by Intuitive Machines landed safely on the moon Feb. 22, becoming the first privately developed spacecraft to land there.

spacenews.com

Picture of the lander overlooking the Moon. Look at all the zip ties wrapping the cable bundles closest to the camera.

I wonder if those zip ties are blue to denote a temperature range. I think the temperature on the moon goes from -298 degrees Fahrenheit to +224°F.

Blue zip ties might be the most bad @ss of the bunch

I gotta find me some blues zip ties for my airplane

 

[bertschb]

Blue zip ties might be the most bad @ss of the bunch

Yeah, I'm guessing they are made out of something different than what we use. As a new builder, I was actually surprised to see Vans using Zip ties inside the airplane. Every zip tie I've seen gets brittle after a few years and will snap if moved very much.

 

[bkc3921]

Yeah, I'm guessing they are made out of something different than what we use. As a new builder, I was actually surprised to see Vans using Zip ties inside the airplane. Every zip tie I've seen gets brittle after a few years and will snap if moved very muc

Yeah, I'm guessing they are made out of something different than what we use. As a new builder, I was actually surprised to see Vans using Zip ties inside the airplane. Every zip tie I've seen gets brittle after a few years and will snap if moved very much.

The "Blue" zip ties are called Tefzel...they have a higher temperature range than regular nylon. I cannot vouch for their "stability" from cracking, but I used them on my -7A, and after 12 years have not noticed any failures or degradation. I only used the Tefzel firewall forward, as they are considerably more expensive than regular ties. They are available from Steinair on their website, and other places I'm sure. I'm far from an expert, but I have read NOT to attach zip ties directly to structures like the engine mount, as the vibration could cause the ziptie to literally eat through the engine mount (given enough time, and absent any other protection such as fish paper)..... YMMV...again, that's what I did, but make no claims about the accuracy of this info. Take care.

 

[mburch]

Perhaps Tefzel / ETFE? https://www.cabletiesandmore.com/tefzel-cable-ties

 

[rv8ch]

I used a million little blue zip ties in my wiring behind the panel and throughout the cockpit. In the engine compartment, I used adel clamps and lace. Zip ties can get brittle, usually if they are exposed to UV. If you have a zip tie that will cause a serious problem if it falls off, perhaps use something else.

One thing I didn't do was cut off the excess material, to avoid the sharp edge. Yes, it looks a bit strange to have the small blue whiskers everywhere, but it does not cut my hand when I dig in there.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Those look like Harbor Freight zip ties!!

 

[dmn056]

I gotta find me some blues zip ties for my airplane

Here are your options. The more exotic ones will set you back some serious money.

 

[Jonnyb]

Airbus use zip ties in their wiring looms. Have done for years.

 

[vic syracuse]

Use flush-cut diagonal cutters to cut the tail off of the zip ties and they won’t leave little nibs that cut you.

 

[Bill Boyd]

For those of us with less rigorous aerospace requirements but not wanting our motor mounts gradually sawn into pieces by grit under vibrating zip-ties: https://griplockties.com/

 

[Scott Hersha]

For those of us with less rigorous aerospace requirements but not wanting our motor mounts gradually sawn into pieces by grit under vibrating zip-ties: https://griplockties.com/

I camped next to the guy that invented these at Oshkosh a few years ago, and he gave me a few to try out. Tragically, he is no longer with us, but his family and colleagues are ramping up to continue production of these. I have 3 sizes, and have used them in several places, including FWF where an adel clamp didn’t work as well. The ability to release the clamp because you found something else that needed to be in that bundle is a great feature, and the cushioned rubber side protects what it is wrapped around. I hope they can stay in business.

 

[MED]

Use flush-cut diagonal cutters to cut the tail off of the zip ties and they won’t leave little nibs that cut you.

This is much better. I found a used one on the auction site.

https://www.amazon.com/Panduit-GTS-E-Cable-Tie-Tools/dp/B01N3A0WM2

 

[georgemohr]

Here are my personal rules for zip tie use, hope it is of some use.

1) Use for wires should be restricted to larger bundles of wires that are otherwise well secured (not much movement required). Leads to connectors on avionics for example, should be laced for flexibility as they are expected to move.
2) Zip ties around painted surfaces (i.e. motor mount tubes) should be done with silicon fusion tape between the zip tie and the substrate. This prevents a slow grinding of the paint. Adel clamps are a better choice here, but admittedly overkill in some instances.
3) Zip ties should not be used for structural support of items with any significant mass. This one is a little vague, but for example, heat duct scat tube can be supported with zip ties, but an oil cooler hose should not be. Adel clamps are the proper alternative IMO.
4) Zip ties near hot surfaces should be the high-temp ones (blue in my experience).

 

[clarenceoveur]

Use flush-cut diagonal cutters to cut the tail off of the zip ties and they won’t leave little nibs that cut you.

Vic is right about the cutters. These are a must have when installing zip ties.

https://a.co/d/hpr2Lp7

 

[cvairwerks]

PhatRV: It takes about 5 minutes to learn the basics of string tying a harness. It takes about a hour to learn how to tie a harness buried in a bunch of other harnesses and hydraulic tubing. The absolute hardest part is learning how to tie a clove hitch in the middle of a wiring run. That's 90% of the process.
If you can tie a shoelace, you can do a harness.

What a roll of string tie will cost you, it would take about 100 bags of zip ties to do the same.....

 

[Thermos]

Perhaps Tefzel / ETFE? https://www.cabletiesandmore.com/tefzel-cable-ties

I gotta get me some of those. They're radiation-resistant to 100 megarads, which is 99,999,400 rads above the lethal radiation exposure level for humans.

ds

 

[bkc3921]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, +1 for a cable tie gun. Panduit is a "name" brand..but there are others. Get a good one with adjustable tension settings. When properly adjusted, the gun will use the pawl function to pull the running end of the tie out slightly and snip the excess. When the gun "relaxes" the tension, the sharp edge will disappear below the head of the tie, making it as smooth as a prom queen's thighs.

 

[pa38112]

I am a fan of wire lacing. I did not know how to do it, so I watched a video and practiced. I Tie individual knots, and do not attempt to run it the length of the bundle. Now I find it to be far superior to zip ties in versatility and appearance. It does not really take much longer once you learn how to use it. Pluss, a spool of lacing cord will last for years and years. To me, it is like driving rivets VS pulling them - Once you learn how, why would you do anything else?

 

[Toobuilder]

I am a fan of wire lacing. I did not know how to do it,

Yep. After years in the aerospace business I finally met a “grey beard” Instrumentation tech and he showed me how to tie a knot in seconds. I can tie off waxed string in about the same time or less than I can bundle, cinch and dress a zip tie.

 

[Canadian_JOY]

My last big commercial installation job involved installing a new flight data recorder system on a large military transport aircraft. To do this we opened up pretty much every bundle in the airplane. I budgeted 10,000 zip ties per aircraft. These days that number doesn't phaze us very much, but when you see a stack of 10,000 zip ties in cardboard boxes, it's a lot of boxes!

I use the Panduit zip tie gun where there's open access. In tighter places it's duckbill pliers and flush cutting sidecutters.

As an airworthiness inspector, if I reach into an airplane and come out with scratched skin from zip ties not cut flush the builder gets a severe talking to. I recently found some decent flush cutters on sale and picked up a half dozen pairs. I keep them in the briefcase I take with me on every inspection. If the builder doesn't have flush cutters when I arrive he certainly has them before I leave!

There is absolutely NO excuse for zip ties that aren't cut flush.

 

[Canadian_JOY]

Yep. After years in the aerospace business I finally met a “grey beard” Instrumentation tech and he showed me how to tie a knot in seconds. I can tie off waxed string in about the same time or less than I can bundle, cinch and dress a zip tie.

Just a hint... Post a video of you installing lacing this way. I agree, it can be done very quickly. Video evidence will quell the doubters!

 

[cvairwerks]

Here's a short one that shows how quick and easy it is.

PA: NASA is about the only one that still allows continuous running lacing. It was outlawed at where I work, long before I ever joined the company I work for, in 1986.

 

[bob865]

I will say that for naval aviation, zip ties are generally not allowed. I was an electrician on F/A-18s in the Marine Corps and we had classes specifically on how to properly tie a spot tie. Once you know how, it's not hard at all. When zip ties were allowed they are only allowed if originally specified by the aircraft manufacturer, which in the case of the homebuilt would be the builder. Here is a brief excerpt from the NAVAIR 01-1A-505-1: INSTALLATION AND REPAIR PRACTICES AIRCRAFT ELECTRIC AND ELECTRONIC WIRING .

 

[Bill Boyd]

The use of "affect" when "effect" is the proper word should also be "strictly prohibited in all instances."

 

[PhatRV]

I will say that for naval aviation, zip ties are generally not allowed. I was an electrician on F/A-18s in the Marine Corps

Maybe this was applicable for the military standards which don't change, but it doesn't mean it's better because the world had moved on.
At work, we recently had a discussion on using radiation hardened chips for our spacecraft electronic boxes. This used to be the case decades ago when the military were the biggest customer and they insisted on using nothing but expensive hardened equipment. The end result was everything cost 100x more than an equivalent commercial part and everything was heavy, etc... Aerospace standards followed the military standards and nothing changed while the world ran away in the opposite direction.
Here is an excellent article about the Mars helicopter. It uses commercial parts and it weights a lot less than if it had used milspec parts. This mighty helicopter survived the harsh Martian environment just as well. SpaceX used a lot of commercial parts too and they seem to be doing okay.

It turns out NASA’s Mars helicopter was much more revolutionary than we knew

Ingenuity packed more computing power than all other NASA deep space missions combined.

arstechnica.com

A lot of aerospace companies saw the light and they are fast moving toward commercial standards. Much like MOSAIC for airplanes

Anecdotal: At the flight school where I used to rent flight hours, it uses nothing but zipties in the engine compartments and elsewhere in the airplanes. The planes sit on the ramp cooking under the hot Socal sun for decades and everything was fine. The only thing that routinely failed in these airplanes were the ancient 6-pack analog instruments, ancient radios, vacuum pumps, and other big equipments.

 

[rockyfatcat]

Use flush-cut diagonal cutters to cut the tail off of the zip ties and they won’t leave little nibs that cut you.

$20 Harbor Freight

 

[UNCRV]

$20 Harbor Freight
View attachment 56821

Unless they changed the design of the HF one it’s about the same as using a pair of cutters and will leave ends that will slice your hand off. The flush cut cutters Vic mentioned or the Panduit cutter are the way to go.

 

[rockyfatcat]

Unless they changed the design of the HF one it’s about the same as using a pair of cutters and will leave ends that will slice your hand off. The flush cut cutters Vic mentioned or the Panduit cutter are the way to go.

While the Panduit cutter is a certified tool and capable of being calibrated. The Harbor Freight model is not a certified tool. I have never attempted to get one calibrated. It will do essentially the same job at a fraction of the price. If yours doesn’t cut cleanly. Return it and try another.

25 years A&P mechanic

 

[PHOTO01]

I will say that for naval aviation, zip ties are generally not allowed. I was an electrician on F/A-18s in the Marine Corps and we had classes specifically on how to properly tie a spot tie. Once you know how, it's not hard at all. When zip ties were allowed they are only allowed if originally specified by the aircraft manufacturer, which in the case of the homebuilt would be the builder. Here is a brief excerpt from the NAVAIR 01-1A-505-1: INSTALLATION AND REPAIR PRACTICES AIRCRAFT ELECTRIC AND ELECTRONIC WIRING .

View attachment 56797

To second this, we had a pretty notable Class A mishap in my community directly linked to a zip tie chafing on a fuel purge line and the nearby wiring:

Unfortunately years of creeping standards led mechs to start putting zip ties in places they did not belong. A good friend explained the mishap well at the end of this episode:

‎Safe on Deck: Episode 40: Jeff Spencer (MH-53) on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Safe on Deck, Ep Episode 40: Jeff Spencer (MH-53) - Jan 18, 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[N804RV]

While the Panduit cutter is a certified tool and capable of being calibrated. The Harbor Freight model is not a certified tool. I have never attempted to get one calibrated. It will do essentially the same job at a fraction of the price. If yours doesn’t cut cleanly. Return it and try another.

25 years A&P mechanic

A decent pair of diagonal cutters and a little practice does the job as well as any Panduit cutter (calibrated or not). I have a Panduit tool in my taco wagon. It was even calibrated once at the repair depot where I worked.

 

[N804RV]

Here's a short one that shows how quick and easy it is.

PA: NASA is about the only one that still allows continuous running lacing. It was outlawed at where I work, long before I ever joined the company I work for, in 1986.

They taught both ways in AfunP back in '77. But I've never used the continuous lacing method, and don't see any advantage to doing so. In the '90s we were horrified to see brand new repairable control panels for center and overhead consoles with the little nylon zip ties. Those damned things would yellow and become brittle within just a few months.

When I left my last repair depot job, I had 3 rolls of Nomex lacing in my taco wagon. I've been using that to build up the wire bundles for my -8.

 

[UNCRV]

While the Panduit cutter is a certified tool and capable of being calibrated. The Harbor Freight model is not a certified tool. I have never attempted to get one calibrated. It will do essentially the same job at a fraction of the price. If yours doesn’t cut cleanly. Return it and try another.

25 years A&P mechanic

The HF one I have is about 5-10 years old that I got prior to starting my builds that I used on some car repairs. I have no idea if there is any way to adjust it to get it to cut flush. I own a lot of HF tools and most are good value for the money but this item is not. The panduit cutter comes out when I don’t want to try to get a pair of cutters in a hole that I can’t easily reach. I also obtained it on an auction site for a fraction of the listed new price. It’s well worn but for what I need it has done the job so far.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Here is an excellent article about the Mars helicopter. It uses commercial parts and it weights a lot less than if it had used milspec parts. This mighty helicopter survived the harsh Martian environment just as well. SpaceX used a lot of commercial parts too and they seem to be doing okay.

I'm not sure the article was entirely fair in the comparison. A RAD750 is an SBC, not just the cpu chip, as the commercial part is, so the weight comparison is apples to oranges. And the radiation environment at Mars, while harsher than earth, is considerably less than some other places in the solar system. Not to mention the helicopter was a non-mission-critical tech demo, so loss of it would have no impact on mission success, thus the much, much higher risk posture. It doesn't mean that we can start flying commercial, non-rad-hardened parts just anywhere.

 

[[email protected]]

Here's a short one that shows how quick and easy it is.

PA: NASA is about the only one that still allows continuous running lacing. It was outlawed at where I work, long before I ever joined the company I work for, in 1986.

Here's a short one that shows how quick and easy it is.

PA: NASA is about the only one that still allows continuous running lacing. It was outlawed at where I work, long before I ever joined the company I work for, in 1986.

This quick little video shows how easy lacing can be. But under the panel or in very restricted space it's a bit of a challenge. I like the use/showing of the zip tie to hold while getting the lacing in place. Done that a million times.
In my opinion there isn't any thing wrong with zip ties if the use of a flush cutter is employed and you use higher quality black zip ties. No Ebay &#&!!!!!!
But, my luck varies Fixit

 

[clarenceoveur]

Here's a short one that shows how quick and easy it is.

PA: NASA is about the only one that still allows continuous running lacing. It was outlawed at where I work, long before I ever joined the company I work for, in 1986.

I really like the look and function of lace but is it practical when on your back with head under panel? (And maybe a cramp in your back)

 

[Canadian_JOY]

I really like the look and function of lace but is it practical when on your back with head under panel? (And maybe a cramp in your back)

As an avionics professional, all I can say is... Get used to it!
If you think RV's are difficult to work on, under the panel, you've led a charmed life. RVs are pretty spacious compared to some other aircraft and especially some helicopters.

 

[cvairwerks]

Yeah, it can be a challenge at times, but if you want to really pretzel yourself, try tying with hemostats and looking at the work via a borescope.... Most of the time, I'm working on harnesses that are only accessible via access panels that are no bigger than a loaf of bread. I feel great when I get harness work in one of the locations that I can get more than my forearms into. The secret to doing stuff where you have limited access, is make yourself comfortable, do a few ties and then take a break for a few minutes.

Just for a reference, all the orange wire took 4 people over about 3 days to string tie and clamp.

https://scalespot.com/onthebench/f35a-meng/image056.jpg

 

[clarenceoveur]

Yeah, it can be a challenge at times, but if you want to really pretzel yourself, try tying with hemostats and looking at the work via a borescope.... Most of the time, I'm working on harnesses that are only accessible via access panels that are no bigger than a loaf of bread. I feel great when I get harness work in one of the locations that I can get more than my forearms into. The secret to doing stuff where you have limited access, is make yourself comfortable, do a few ties and then take a break for a few minutes.

Just for a reference, all the orange wire took 4 people over about 3 days to string tie and clamp.

https://scalespot.com/onthebench/f35a-meng/image056.jpg

That photo is a thing of beauty.

 

[rv6n6r]

$20 Harbor Freight
View attachment 56821

^^this. I'm surprised this isn't part of every RV builder's toolkit.

As for the Tefzel zip ties - I used a bunch of those early on but they're damnably expensive, so I was always reluctant to cut off and replace them when doing maintenance. Which I did end up having to do over time, so I just ended up replacing them with the regular ones. My approach now is to put enough on that if one breaks the next one will hold it, which has worked for over 20 years. I check all the wiring harnesses at annual of course, and I usually find one or two in the engine compartment that has gone bad, which I just replace. For anything critical or close to exhaust / heat I use another method (e.g. adel clamp) or move it further away.

 

[N804RV]

I really like the look and function of lace but is it practical when on your back with head under panel? (And maybe a cramp in your back)

Not any worse than zip-ties if you're doing them right and not leaving any sharp edges or blindly sticking a pair of diagonal cutters up into wire bundles.

 

[bobnoffs]

even if you dont lace, everyone ought to have a roll of lacing. it is so handy for so many things. strong too. i think a single lace is rated at 80 lbs. so imagine 3 or 4 wraps. and the second half hitch will tighten it all up and a 3rd keeps it from ever loosening.

 

[Jpm757]

These work great.

 

[Snowflake]

What the heck is "Enhanced UV & Protection"?

 

[MGR1977]

I used them throughout the plane. I didn't know how to lace the wires. Apparently, the folks at the Intuitive company that successfully landed on the Moon used zipties throughout their Moon lander. I know that we in aviation overthink a lot of things but here is the proof that zip ties are on the Moon.

Intuitive Machines lands on the moon

A robotic lander developed by Intuitive Machines landed safely on the moon Feb. 22, becoming the first privately developed spacecraft to land there.

spacenews.com

Picture of the lander overlooking the Moon. Look at all the zip ties wrapping the cable bundles closest to the camera.

Well, the lander did tip over.... So I wouldn't describe it as a successful landing. Remember, nobody walked away from it either. So maybe they didn't calculate CG correctly for the zip ties...

 

[PhatRV]

Another case of zip ties used on the Boeing 787. Also look at the plastic ties that support the wiring to the structure brackets on the right side of the screen grab. I haven't seen them before. The point is using zip ties is an acceptable practice in the aerospace industry.

Video link:

Screen grab

 

[rocketman1988]

Another case of zip ties used on the Boeing 787. Also look at the plastic ties that support the wiring to the structure brackets on the right side of the screen grab. I haven't seen them before. The point is using zip ties is an acceptable practice in the aerospace industry.

Video link:

Screen grab

That may be the case but there is a huge difference in the quality and strength of zip ties.

 

[bob865]

Another case of zip ties used on the Boeing 787. Also look at the plastic ties that support the wiring to the structure brackets on the right side of the screen grab. I haven't seen them before. The point is using zip ties is an acceptable practice in the aerospace industry.

Video link:

Screen grab

Are you sure using Boeing as a point of reference for good aerospace practices is a good idea right now?

But seriously, there are ways to use zip ties safely. There are places where they are the better choice. There are others where their use can cause significant safety of flight issues. But the key message is, just because they are easier doesn't mean they are the right choice. You could replace all of the rivets on your RV with blind(pop) rivets and it would be a lot easier to assemble. But should you? Probably not. Would it fly? Probably. Would it be safe? Maybe. Would it be as safe? Probably not.

As with anything in the technical/engineering world, there is no right answer only a more right and less right answer. When used properly (right size, right type, right tension, right securing method, etc.) they are just as safe. In some cases they may even be more safe than spot ties. But only reading the, "they are just as safe and in some cases more safe than spot ties" and assuming spot ties can be replaced in their entirety with zip ties is an error in logic.

And for what it's worth, there are still lots of spot ties in that image too.

 

[Jonnyb]

Are you sure using Boeing as a point of reference for good aerospace practices is a good idea right now?

But seriously, there are ways to use zip ties safely. There are places where they are the better choice. There are others where their use can cause significant safety of flight issues. But the key message is, just because they are easier doesn't mean they are the right choice. You could replace all of the rivets on your RV with blind(pop) rivets and it would be a lot easier to assemble. But should you? Probably not. Would it fly? Probably. Would it be safe? Maybe. Would it be as safe? Probably not.

As with anything in the technical/engineering world, there is no right answer only a more right and less right answer. When used properly (right size, right type, right tension, right securing method, etc.) they are just as safe. In some cases they may even be more safe than spot ties. But only reading the, "they are just as safe and in some cases more safe than spot ties" and assuming spot ties can be replaced in their entirety with zip ties is an error in logic.

And for what it's worth, there are still lots of spot ties in that image too.

I would point out that a certain European manufacturer of commercial passenger aircraft uses zip ties extensively, doesn’t use spot ties, and doesn’t have aircraft falling from the sky.

 

[jjb]

I would point out that a certain European manufacturer of commercial passenger aircraft uses zip ties extensively, doesn’t use spot ties, and doesn’t have aircraft falling from the sky.

No one questions that, or the appropriateness of using zip ties in high end aerospace applications.

But zip ties used in commercial aerospace are qualitatively different than typical cheap HF/Amazon/Big Box Store zip ties that are commonly used by homebuilders.

That is the important point to take away from this thread IMO.