Glass panel question

[GalinHdz]

All the real stuff happened over at the Mechanical and Aerospace building.

But everybody knows the real engineers are made at the Electrical building.

Anybody that claimed they understood Maxwells equations was lying. (Navier-Stokes is a piece of cake however )

The only Maxwell I want to remember is Maxwell Smart, Agent 86. All those dead physicist (including Faraday, Kirckhoff, Thevenin and others) were erased from my memory a long time ago.

 

[BobTurner]

One data point: a few years ago I ferried a 182 from CA to Wisconsin. It had both a vacuum AI and an electric AI (mechanical). By the time the trip was over neither worked!

 

[SteinAir]

This has been an entertaining read at some points! I don't have a lot to add to the discussion, because to be quite blunt the entire subject of "steam vs. mechanical" when it comes to attitude indicators specifically is sort of dubious use of time. The reason being, no matter what we think, how much we may like or dislike spinning gyros, anecdotal discussions about glass, etc.. the fact is that a spinning gyro is a dinosaur and quickly going the way of the dodo. We've already crossed the point where it is cheaper to make a digital AI than it is to make a mechanical one and despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, fact is the solid state units are many times more reliable than their spinning mass metal counterparts. They are also cheaper to build, lighter and more accurate.

Not only are spinning metal wheels on their way out, but so aneroid altimeters, bellows driven encoders, ASI's, etc.. All of it is just going away no matter what we say or how we discuss it. So while a number of us may like or dislike the round "steam instruments", the fact is that the world is just blowing past them. I'd surmise that any mfgr who sticks with making purely mechanical instruments will find themselves like Polaroid/Kodak while the rest of the world flies by them...and yes...I know there are still fans of actual film!

Lastly, if the FAR23 re-write goes through looking anything like it currently does it'll likely be the death knoll for the few surviving steam instruments on the market. I know some may find this post offensive, but I look at it as just being brutally blunt....and since somebody brought up Maxwell Smart, I'll quote Joe Friday: "just the facts, ma'am"!

Cheers,
Stein

 

[Snowflake]

Finally a voice of reason.

On the other hand, if I took all of the steam gauges out of my panel, i'd have to install a constant-speed prop to correct the Aft CG condition i'd create... Hmmm... Stein doesn't sell props, do they?

 

[rzbill]

This has been an entertaining read at some points! I don't have a lot to add to the discussion, because to be quite blunt the entire subject of "steam vs. mechanical" when it comes to attitude indicators specifically is sort of dubious use of time. The reason being, no matter what we think, how much we may like or dislike spinning gyros, anecdotal discussions about glass, etc.. the fact is that a spinning gyro is a dinosaur and quickly going the way of the dodo. We've already crossed the point where it is cheaper to make a digital AI than it is to make a mechanical one and despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, fact is the solid state units are many times more reliable than their spinning mass metal counterparts. They are also cheaper to build, lighter and more accurate.

Not only are spinning metal wheels on their way out, but so aneroid altimeters, bellows driven encoders, ASI's, etc.. All of it is just going away no matter what we say or how we discuss it. So while a number of us may like or dislike the round "steam instruments", the fact is that the world is just blowing past them. I'd surmise that any mfgr who sticks with making purely mechanical instruments will find themselves like Polaroid/Kodak while the rest of the world flies by them...and yes...I know there are still fans of actual film!

Lastly, if the FAR23 re-write goes through looking anything like it currently does it'll likely be the death knoll for the few surviving steam instruments on the market. I know some may find this post offensive, but I look at it as just being brutally blunt....and since somebody brought up Maxwell Smart, I'll quote Joe Friday: "just the facts, ma'am"!

Cheers,
Stein

Hold on while I record this on my BetaMax...

 

[pierre smith]

Thumbs up for Stein.

I'm too old to take chances and Stein's remarks could have been mine. I have two old, legacy Dynons, a 100 and a 120. They're going on six years old and 600 hours and have never missed a beat. They've kept me right side up in blinding rain (that removed some paint) and under leading-edge ice.

Over my 46 years of flying, I've had my share of DG and AI failures and have read of many fatals as a result of this.

Best,

 

[rzbill]

Y'know, after seeing the comments about failed mechanical gyro's I wanted to say sure I agree with that. I have a TT backup attitude instrument so I don't have a leg to stand on argument wise. The backups I have trouble giving up are the barometric ones that are bone simple. ASI, VSI , ALT

We'll see, maybe a future panel upgrade gets a Gemini and a rack of AA batteries or something

 

[Finley Atherton]

I have been flying VFR behind an EFIS and a traditional ASI for years and was happy with the EFIS altitude display although I always looked at the traditional ASI for airspeed rather than the EFIS.

Recently I upgraded the panel to IFR and added another EFIS. CASA, our regulator in Australia required me to also install a TSO'd altimeter so I installed a traditional altimeter. Naturally I was annoyed about this requirement as I already had two independent altimeters. However I will admit that that the traditional altimeter is now the one I automatically look at. I find the EFIS altimeters are just not as intuitive as the traditional round instrument.

Fin
9A

 

[dutchroll]

CASA, our regulator in Australia required me to also install a TSO'd altimeter so I installed a traditional altimeter.

I can't find anywhere in the legislation where an uncertified aircraft is required to have a TSO'd altimeter. However the new amendment to CAO 100.5 which dictates testing requirements for pitot static instruments is pretty arduous, so it would probably pay to have a TSO'd one anyway, from a reputable manufacturer.

None of this is surprising, as what CASA inspectors say and what the legislation actually says can be difficult to reconcile. In fact even the opinion between inspectors can be quite different, as I've found out! I suspect our brethren in the USA probably find much the same with the FAA!

 

[Finley Atherton]

My answer below concerns Australian regulations but USA RVers should take note that CASA our regulator is currently reviewing the use of non TSO'd instruments in experimental aircraft (see Project CS13/01). Any changes would most likely only effect IFR experimental aircraft but who knows what draconian and expensive rules they will come up with. We supposedly have similar experimental regulations to the USA - so be warned!

I can't find anywhere in the legislation where an uncertified aircraft is required to have a TSO'd altimeter.

Mike,
I don't pretend to have a deep understanding of this but I think in theory you are correct about not requiring a TSO'd altimeter, however I was told there is some catch all regulation that somehow allows CASA to basically specify whatever they think is necessary to ensure safety.

The bottom line is that my AP (Authorised Person) could not get the particular person he was dealing with in CASA to approve my IFR Airworthiness Certification unless I had a TSO'd altimeter installed.

What was particularly galling is that a friend with an RV10 and virtually the same equipment as me used a different AP and got IFR Certification at pretty much the same time as me without needing a TSO'd altimeter. So it seems different rules depending on who you are dealing with in CASA!

Fin
9A

 

[dutchroll]

Yeah our regs are mostly copied from the FAA regs, then modified at the whim of CASA.

Ultimately I guess it just comes down to "do whatever you have to do to get it signed off"! It'd be nice if one day they could get their stories consistent.

 

[RV10inOz]

You are lucky we have not had to have TSO everything.

The battle has been going for a while . I started it in January. We had a massive work up and a great report submitted. I think they are too stunned at the response.

Time will tell.

 

[Valentine]

Steam backup

Backing up Dynons etc with conventional coal fired steam gauges seems to me like backing up your car with a trailer containing a horse.