G900X anyone considering?

[doctornigel]

Is anyone installed or considered the G900X for their RV.

Advantages are integration, resale, you can have others learn your plane's systems from a King DVD?

Disadvantages are cost and ?

 

[ccrawford]

I'd love to, but having it cost more than my kit and engine put together isn't really worth it. Plus you can only have a 'dealer' install it, it can't be installed by yourself.

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

At $75k, I can't see how many RV people will install this beast. Yeah, it's a nice system, but think of what you can have for half the price or less! A 3 screen GRT with dual AHRS/ADC, dual comms, WAAS/IFR nav and the other goodies (audio panel, xpdr, etc) OR even a 2-screen Chelton w/"internal" IFR WAAS GPS, SL30 and xpdr. I guess that the closest competitor is the Chelton, which has a good system already.

The big thing that the G900 does have going for it (IMHO) is the MFD screen size. In human interface considerations, larger is normally better when it comes to interpreting complex data, like maps. The PDF doesn't need to be that large, since your primary scan can't spread out that far anyway and there's a limited amount of data you're presenting. Chelton / GRT / Dynon / ACS all have large enough PFD, but the MFD is key.

However, if I REALLY want a large MFD, I'll get the 11" Avidyne and call it good. Otherwise, a GMX-200 is a decent-sized alternative that has VERY good map-like displays and the approach chart overlays. However, until Warren Buffet drops by with a few shares of Berkshire Hathaway for me, I don't have that kind of budget just yet.

 

[doctornigel]

For 60K (can be had for that online, Starks and Stein)
you get dual screens, engine monitors, dual IFR certified waas GPS, dual Nav/Com, transponder, terrain, weather, charts, TIS traffic all fully integrated.

While you could cobble that together from other sources, you would almost certainly be throwning some Garmin electronics in to get the IFR approach GPS.

You might be able to come up with something that would do most of what the G900X does and come in maybe 15K less. You might get the extra 15K back at resale due to some of the reasons in my first post.

By the time my RV-10 is done, I'll have 150K into it, the extra 10% may be worth it, just wanted to know if anyone has done it yet, thanks.

 

[RVbySDI]

"Not gonna do it!" said with my best George H. Bush impersonation

I am afraid for those of us without the title Doctor in front of our names the price is a rather sticky point. Now perhaps if I can figure out how I can get others to pay for it maybe I can justify the expense.

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

For 60K (can be had for that online, Starks and Stein)
you get dual screens, engine monitors, dual IFR certified waas GPS, dual Nav/Com, transponder, terrain, weather, charts, TIS traffic all fully integrated.

While you could cobble that together from other sources, you would almost certainly be throwning some Garmin electronics in to get the IFR approach GPS.

Ok, lessee ... Stein offers the G900X with an AP and backup steam gauges for $72k .... $9500 for the Sorcerer AP, $1000 for the steam gauges and ADI ... $62k sounds right. Need to add $3k to get Garmin's TSOed XM WX box. Call it $64.

A three-screen GRT with dual AHARS AND XM is $17,000. Add in $14k for dual G430s, $2000 for a fancy XPDR and $1500 for an audio panel. That's what, $34.5. Change one of the G430s to a SL30 and the price drops to about $31k. $30k less, but you only have 1 IFR GPS; the internal in the GRT is a backup only (right?). I'll take that.

A 2-screen Chelton with the IFR WAAS GPS module should run you $33k (estimate from Stein's price). Add a second AHARS for $3k more. Dual SL30s (or Kings) for $7k, audio panel and XPDR for $3500 brings us to $43,500. I'm not sure what an XM box costs; call it $2k for $45,500. $18.5k less.

You're 100% right that the Garmin is better integrated and also has larger screens. However, you're paying dearly for that. Some will chose that route; I won't, since that would increase my budget by .... well, somewhere between 50% and 80%.

Don't get me wrong - it's a cool system, and if it's for you, great. It's just not for me.

 

[w1curtis]

For 60K (can be had for that online, Starks and Stein)
you get dual screens, engine monitors, dual IFR certified waas GPS, dual Nav/Com, transponder, terrain, weather, charts, TIS traffic all fully integrated.

While you could cobble that together from other sources, you would almost certainly be throwning some Garmin electronics in to get the IFR approach GPS.

You might be able to come up with something that would do most of what the G900X does and come in maybe 15K less. You might get the extra 15K back at resale due to some of the reasons in my first post.

By the time my RV-10 is done, I'll have 150K into it, the extra 10% may be worth it, just wanted to know if anyone has done it yet, thanks.

OK, in the words of George H. W. Bush, that's just "Voodoo economics." You have $150K in the plane of which $75K is the G900x, $40K is the engine, the slow build kit is $37K, add another 10K for the quick build, not to mention interior (3-5K), paint ($4-8K) and ancillary and I think we are a bit over $150K.

The G900x alone will represents about 45% to 50% of your RV-10. I'm not saying the G900x won't be a great unit, but I'm thinking quite a few folks can "cobble" together an equivalent system for FAR less than the 65-75K that the G900x will set you back. I only wish I could afford one.

 

[SteinAir]

I think you all might be surprised at the popularity of these things. We have FIVE (count 'em - FIVE) of those systems in the shop right now - ALL being installed into RV's. Not bad considering Garmin only started delivering them about 8-12 weeks ago. Put it this way, we're seeing a lot more interest in the G900X's than Cheltons right now. I've seen lots of number thrown around here, and to be frank the G900X is always going to be more expensive. But (and this is a big but), it's not that much more (we're talking around single thousands) if you were going to equip a Chelton panel similarly with TWO WAAS certified boxes, 2 NAVs, 2 COMM's, Mode S, and a high end Audio Panel.

This system definately isn't for everyone, but for those who are serious about IFR and are used to the system in other planes it makes sense. Like someone else mentioned, on a plane that'll sell for over $200K, an extra $10-$12K isn't a huge leap...

The GRT stuff is great, we sell more of them than anyone and I like it enough to still recommend it for a lot of folks. But, it's not a G900X and shouldn't be compared as such. The 900X is a completely different animal - Period. The G900X is fully certified, not just "kind of", but completely certified - certified AHRS, certified software, certified GPS's, etc.. The screen size is just amazing when looking at terrain, weather or charts. The IFR procedures are easy as pie, and the engine monitor page is also quite exceptional. It integrates nicely with just about everything (including the door warnings for the RV-10 folks).

I think you don't hear many people talking about buying it because they feel like they get slammed for doing so by those who say "I have just as good of a panel for a lot less", but that isn't always the case. To each of us it might be, but to others not so. I just had a guy stop by today who is going to order one this fall for his RV-10 (will be something like the 10th RV10 guy to do so) and he wasn't telling everyone about it because many think it's too expensive. Sure, I'm one of the guys who built and is flying my plane for in it's entirety less than the system costs, but then again I'm in a different league (both flying and income).

I could say the same thing about those spending $120K+ on an LSA...when I can still build a nicely equipped RV for half of that....but I don't because each persons circumstances are different. Many of these people are building something like an RV10 because even if they buy a G900X panel, it's still costing them WAYY LESS THAN HALF of what an equivalent Cirrus would be. These are people who might consider buying a Cirrus, but want the RV10 because it's a better plane (let's not start arguing about that)! Compare the cost of a 900X equipped RV10 with a Cirrus, New Bonanza, Mooney, 182, etc.. and this doesn't seem as ludicrous as you might think....in fact the finished airplane is a steal when compared to those prices.

So, to end my rambling I just want to say that when compared to many of our budgets it may seem crazy. But when taken in the right perspective it's just as good of a deal to some folks as buying a Dynon is to others. It all depends on your personal circumstance and perspective. I can't afford it, but I'm happy to see those who can.

Lastly, I know a few people who have scraped together just enough dough to fly an old Ercoupe, Pacer, Chief, Powered Parachute or something like that. My RV6 looks to them like an unattainable dream, and the Dynon is WAYYY too expensive for them. That is the same perspective those people have about my plane as most of us have towards the guys buying a G900X equipped RV10. That's all I'm trying to say. It's just a matter of perspective.

Sorry for the long rant...it's just my usual 2 cents!

Cheers,
Stein.

 

[jtrusso]

When I build the dream panel for my dream RV-10 in my head, it always has the G900X. But then the cold hard reality of dollars and cents hits me and I look towards the 2 screen GRT with a G530 or a 2 screen Advanced system if they ever get that moving map on-line.

I really like the complete integration you get with the G900X, it has the PFD, MFD, comm/nav, transponder and engine info all in one package. That really appeals to me. I have flown behind the G1000 once and I thought it was great. I know you can get similar integration with a Chelton, but it doesn't appear to be as complete as it is with the G900X package.

However it's all still in the "dream" phase for now I'm just sitting back reading the forums and dreaming.

-John
Dreaming of building an RV.....someday

 

[doctornigel]

Thanks for all the posts, these are just what I need, even the devil's advocate type replies. I am in the idea stage, haven't put the deposit yet on any system. The RV-10 with a G900X is in the range I can afford, I figure I'll have a 4 place, 175kt plane, with a new engine, leather interior, A/C, the equivalent of a G1000 panel, custom paint, all for under 180K. If I wanted that setup with a certified aircraft it would have to be probably a 70's era 172---no comparison, old plane and only 115kts, the RV-10 wins. I can't afford anything more but I feel very fortunate that this is in my range. I know people that are plunking down the money for new Moonies, Circus or Beech's, much more than twice as much. I'll have the satisfaction of building it myself and being able to keep it going without needing an IA or AP.

And yes I work for my money, I spent 8 years in school--at least 40 hours a week in classes and then gave up uncounted weekends and evenings studying all without pay. While alot of people were enjoying their teens and twenties, I was unable to go on vacations, buy a decent car, have kids,etc. I left school with almost 150K in student loans and it cost me almost 400K to set up my dental practice. I earn a good living now, but I worked darn hard to get there, everyone out there can have exactly what I have now, you just have to have given up what I did to get it. Kinda like building an RV, almost anyone out there COULD do it, but are they willing TO DO it? Don't resent what people have that have earned it, because they did what had to be done to get it. Now everyone out there debur!

 

[Captain Sacto]

Securing expensive avionics?

Only partially related to the discussion, but something I've wondered about for a long time...

How does one secure (or feel secure) really expensive avionics such as a G900X in plexy canopy RV airplanes?

Is there a way to install hidden locks or screws (or even safety wire) that would prevent a thief from stealing glass cockpit panel items?

Regards all - - Tom from Sacramento

 

[ajay]

price/functionality

... So, to end my rambling I just want to say that when compared to many of our budgets it may seem crazy. But when taken in the right perspective it's just as good of a deal to some folks as buying a Dynon is to others. It all depends on your personal circumstance and perspective. I can't afford it, but I'm happy to see those who can.

Stein, Thanks for the perspective and true the 900X/G1000 is the best integrated system out there, but money aside (well relatively speaking), is it really the best use of your money for the given functionality?

You mentioned the Chelton panel similarly with TWO WAAS certified boxes, 2 NAVs, 2 COMM's, Mode S, and a high end Audio Panel only being (single) thousands less. Is this with a 3 screen Chelton or 2 screen? Also how would a single Chelton integrate with a lower end screen for the MFD such as AFS or GRT? Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you can save $20k and be nearly as well equipped as the 900X?

ajay

 

[SteinAir]

Not really...the Chelton stuff (now starting at $31K for 2 screens) won't talk or integrate to other EFIS's or MFD's...nor will Garmin, GRT, etc.. (the only people I know of that will work with others is XXX - as they have found a way to read the data streams from other EFIS's to creat a nice "slave" screen display for back seaters. (Oooops, perhaps I'm not supposed to leak that just yet so I won't)

Anyway, the G900X basically is the equivalent of 2 GNS-530's (high comm output of 16 watts), an MVP-50 engine monitor, a GTX-330 remote, and a PMA-8000B. So, you then take 2 WAAS GPS certified to the highest level and you're talking at a minimum dual 430W's or 530W's with your Chelton to be equivalent. The new Chelton GPS will be certified, but not available yet. Add to that it's price tag which likely be higher than a 430 anyway...and it's hard to see what is the best way to go. The Chelton will only take 1 GPS input, so now you're stuck doing something else with the 2nd unit, like installing yet another CDI that's not integrated to your EFIS. Everything ancillary is basically a wash (weather, autopilot, backups, etc..) so those don't necessarily add into the equation, except that with the G900X's we can package some of it together at a better deal then bying them alone.

Don't get me wrong...I still think the Chelton stuff is REALLY nice - and we're still selling it. It's just that if you're going to stack it up with dual everything else and add on the same goodies, you're pricing won't be far off. Now if you were to take an apples and oranges look at it by equipping the Chelton with differing units that aren't functionally 100% equivalent, then of course it's going to be cheaper. But, you can't use that comparision as apples to apples ...it's more budgetarily constrained/compared, not based on equal functionality. Lastly, one is certified and the other is not - which is hard to put a $$ figure on. They both have their benefits, but it's really hard to do an equal comparision when they are such different animals.

Each persons circumstances, budget, desires and flying will determine the best fit. For some it's going to be the G900X's, for others it'll be the Cheltons and for yet others it'll be something else like OP, GRT, AFS, etc.. There isn't a single system we deal with that I can consider perfect for all builders. It's a good thing we have so many choices!

Cheers,
Stein.

 

[Pirkka]

We have FIVE (count 'em - FIVE) of those systems in the shop right now - ALL being installed into RV's.

But compared to the number of RVs that is very low number though. As the original writer was asking also reselling, I would say that when the number of these put in the RVs originally is very low, also possibilities to sell plane with G900X (with fair price) will be extremely difficult. As you can get whole plane with price of G900X, it's really small portion of people which seriously consider options like this.

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

Anyway, the G900X basically is the equivalent of 2 GNS-530's (high comm output of 16 watts), an MVP-50 engine monitor, a GTX-330 remote, and a PMA-8000B. So, you then take 2 WAAS GPS certified ...
Don't get me wrong...I still think the Chelton stuff is REALLY nice - and we're still selling it. It's just that if you're going to stack it up with dual everything else and add on the same goodies, you're pricing won't be far off. Now if you were to take an apples and oranges look at it by equipping the Chelton with differing units that aren't functionally 100% equivalent, then of course it's going to be cheaper. ....
Each persons circumstances, budget, desires and flying will determine the best fit. For some it's going to be the G900X's, for others it'll be the Cheltons and for yet others it'll be something else like OP, GRT, AFS, etc..

And there's the rub! I think that the 900X is overkill for most "RV missions". I don't think I need dual 16W comms or dual WAAS IFR approach GPS. I single 430W and single SL30 should work. In addition, I like the concept of dissimilar items for backup, i.e., different hardware and software that will have different failure modes. If you're running the same software on your primary and secondary systems and they experience the same bug, you're going to have a bad day.

However, if I envisioned flying a lot of IFR and had the $$, the 900X would be tempting. I think this is why we see the G900X pitched to the Lancair crowd.

There isn't a single system we deal with that I can consider perfect for all builders. It's a good thing we have so many choices!

Ab-so-lutely. It's good to have choices.

 

[RVbySDI]

Don't take offense Doc!

And yes I work for my money, I spent 8 years in school--at least 40 hours a week in classes and then gave up uncounted weekends and evenings studying all without pay. While alot of people were enjoying their teens and twenties, I was unable to go on vacations, buy a decent car, have kids,etc. I left school with almost 150K in student loans and it cost me almost 400K to set up my dental practice. I earn a good living now, but I worked darn hard to get there, everyone out there can have exactly what I have now, you just have to have given up what I did to get it. Kinda like building an RV, almost anyone out there COULD do it, but are they willing TO DO it? Don't resent what people have that have earned it, because they did what had to be done to get it. Now everyone out there debur!

Hey, please don't take my comments personally. If it sounded like a personal attack my sincere apology! My comments were meant to be "tongue in cheek" but I see how it could be construed to be a little sarcastic.

To be fair though, I also spent 8 years in school -- no, wait a minute, make that 10 years, with the same level of poverty and devotion to study you mention, not to mention the student loans, and all those other costs. However, because those years of study did not produce that license in hand I find myself making far less than a dentist.

To each his own when it comes to careers, airplanes and spending money. The truth is I could probably afford to put a 900X in my plane if that is what I decided I just had to have. However, I guess I grew up on the poor side of the tracks where hard work was the cost for every luxury you got. It took an awful lot of self analysis to allow yourself to splurge on some items. This is one of those areas for me.

Good luck with your RV-10 DoctorNigel! I harbor no resentment, animosity or bad will toward you, or anyone for that matter.

I will offer my farewell borrowed from those fictitious Vulcans: Live Long and Prosper!