What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

First Time Buyer Advice

SydneyACE

SydneyACE

Member
Hey guys I found an RV-6 that I'd like to put in an offer on.

I'm looking for advice concerning logistics. The plane is in Mississippi, and I live in Montana. I'm pretty sure I'd like to just find a broker to help me because I've never bought a plane before. Is a broker a good idea? If so, do you guys have recommendations? Should the broker be local to me, local to the plane, or does it even matter? How much does a broker cost?

Do you put in an offer first, then have someone go look at the plane for you... or pay someone to check out the plane, then make an offer? (Seems like the second option could open you up to getting out-negotiated, and maybe be wasted money.)

If a deal is made and the purchase goes through; Do you just hire a ferry service to get the plane home? Hire an instructor to do transition training at the purchase location, then fly the plane home yourself? A smarter option I haven't thought of?

I'm a 270-ish hour PPL with lots of instrument training, but no tail wheel time.
 
I don’t know about a broker, but I’d definitely try to arrange for a pre-buy inspection. That can arranged locally in Mississippi, locally to you if there’s someone who’s very knowledgeable, or one of the more well-known guys around here like Vic Syracuse or Tom Berge. There are others, I’m sure so one option is to post “need a pre-buy in Mississippi” on this board. They may very well be able to help you out with the logistics too, which indeed can be complicated. Certainly do-able, but complicated, so a “guru” to steer you would likely be very helpful.
 
Travis, hire someone familiar with RV's for a detailed pre-purchase inspection. It is particularly important in the case of an early model like the RV-6. Some are lovely, and others are disasters. Can't stress this point enough.

Not much value in hiring a broker unless the sales process make you uncomfortable. Offers, deposits, and every other aspect is a matter of agreement...whatever makes you and your seller comfortable. There are no firm rules.

With no tailwheel time, best to let someone get it home, then learn to fly it on your own turf and schedule. If you buy it, come back here to find a ferry pilot.
 
Here are a few thoughts:

1. Get an insurance quote and make sure you find an insurance solution that works for you. IE make sure you are insurable and that you are willing to pay what they are asking.

2. Find a hangar to keep the airplane in before you buy it. RVs don’t tolerate living on the ramp as well as some of their spam-can counterparts. Wait list for hangars seems to be extremely deep across the country.

3. Find someone to do the transition training you need and get the tailwheel endorsement at the same time. See if they will ferry the airplane with you as well. Do not get the transition training while in transit. Use the ferry flight to do additional learning. There is a list somewhere on VAF that has info I believe.

4. Get a copy of Vic Syracuse book “Are Your Nuts Tight” and read it.

5. Find someone who knows RVs (particularly the RV-6) to do a pre-buy for you. Take a look at the airplane in person with them as they inspect it. You will learn a lot from them while they inspect it. If you are buying from the original builder you can glean a lot of information about the airplane as well as begin a relationship with them that you will lean on into the future. If they are not the original builder you can still do the same. The RV-6 was not a match drilled kit and has a larger envelope of finish quality than the later kits. Having someone who is knowledgeable about the RV-6 do a pre-buy is preferred. Someone who is versed in the experimental realm will be looking for things that a typical A&P may not be aware to look at.

6. Find the local RV guys at a field near you and spend time around them. You will learn a lot by spending time around RV guys who build and work on their aircraft. You may be able to help them and if the need arises your new found friends might bail you out. Beyond that, one can never have too many airplane friends.

7. Once you own the airplane start looking for a shop or A&P who will be willing to do the conditional inspection for you.

Once you make a deal on the airplane having the insurance and the hangar lined up and ready to “activate” will ease the process of getting the airplane to its new home. Knowing the person you will be getting transition training from will make this happen faster too. Make sure the seller is capable of housing the airplane for the 2-6 weeks it will take you to get all this setup.


Owning an RV in my experience has been a lot different than owning a certified airplane (Piper, Cessna, etc). When I owned a share in a Piper I would drop it off to get work done at a shop, pay the outrageous bill and repeat the next time it needed something. When I bought a flying RV a few of the shops that worked on the Piper would not touch the RV as it was experimental. Two options with this: 1. Find a reputable shop that will work on the airplane and do its conditional inspection for you. 2. Slowly build skills by spending time around the local RV guys and/or anyone you pay to work on the airplane. You will still need an A&P to do the conditional inspection but having the ability to work on the airplane is a significant advantage as an owner. It is not necessarily about saving money. I find that my timeline to repair something is much faster and the quality of the work is not in question when I do the work. The money saved is an added bonus.
 
Last edited:
AV8ER has really great advice. I just went through the process a little over a year ago and even though I’ve bought and sold many cars/trucks/houses personally it was much different with a plane. I would say it is a steep learning curve and even when you get the perfect team you will still find things down the road that a pre buy simply could not have found unless you just took the entire plane apart bolt by bolt to inspect everything, which is not practical (borescopes and oil samples more than likely wont find case fretting on an engine).

I would add that depending on how comfortable you are with the monetary transaction, you can use an aircraft title company. There are only 2 in the US. I used Aerospace Reports. It was a peace of mind thing for me. You are their customer and you hold the cost of the aircraft in escrow with them. If you’re not happy, they don’t disburse the funds. The seller knows they are legitimate and sees that the funds are in escrow so it helps show you are motivated to buy. Good luck, it’s an exciting time but do your homework.
 
I bought my RV-9A by placing a “WTB” ad here on VAF about 3 years ago. I got a lot of “I haven’t listed this plane yet, but…” responses and a couple of them ticked all my boxes. I had a friend (father of a friend) who was very experienced and I relied on him for advice. The one I like best was a great plane on paper, called and spoke to his A&P who’d done all of his CI’s and felt it was worthy of putting some money down. We flew to St. Louis, looked it over carefully (pre-buy), liked it, gave the owner a cashier’s check and flew it back the next day. I’d already checked with insurance and had it bound, and already arranged a hangar. Complicated because they airports required insurance before they’d lease me a hangar and I didn’t even know if I was going to buy the plane. I did, however.. Once I’d committed and handed over the check, I flew it back. I did the FAA Bill of Sale, the FAA registration transfer, and the Minnesota Aeronautics Division registration. I haven’t had even a moment’s regret about the process or the result.
 
Last edited:
I have bought and sold many planes. I would recommend going out and putting eyes on it yourself if possible and have a mechanic with you to dig into it and see if they’re any deal breaker squaks. As far as a broker getting involved I would highly not recommend it. My rv-7a that I sold was sold to an individual that used a broker and personally I would never go down that road again with another sale. And goes the same with escrow. Buying an airplane is a simple thing to do. Order a Lein search first with King Title and go from there. Good luck and you will love the rv
 
I have bought a few planes and this is what I would do and have always done. I would first put down a small non refundable deposit to keep the plane off the market. I usually like to keep it around 500-1000 dollars. I think of this as just paying the owner some money to keep the plane off the market. Then I would find someone with a lot of RV experience that is also an A&P. I would pay this A&P to do a full condition inspection on the airplane. Not just a pre purchase inspection. This way the A&P has some skin in the game and has signed the log book. Ideally this person could also be the ferry pilot and fly the plane home for you. AOPA has a nice purchase agreement on their website. I like the non refundable deposit much better than a refundable one because that can create problems. Also I never sign a contract that includes attorney fees of any kind.
 
Thank you guys for ALL of the quick, thorough, and helpful responses!! I can tell this is a great community.

Sounds like an insurance quote is in order. I estimated based on posts I saw here that I could probably expect about $2,000 per year as a WORST case scenario (which would be doable). Does that seem about right for the high end? Do you guys have any recommendations on who to call for a quote (feel free to PM me)?

The plane DOES have damage history (ground loop) which was disclosed in the classified ad. The seller emailed me all the logs of the repair. Does something like that affect insurance rates?

I will definitely be getting someone familiar with the RV-6 to check it out with me. I'm still a little unsure as to what makes more sense;

Make an offer (with the condition of a satisfactory inspection), or inspect the aircraft before making an offer?

My reasoning being; If the seller isn't willing to come down to my offering price, then I would like to know that BEFORE paying for an inspection. Also, it seems likely that the seller may be less willing to negotiate on price if I've already invested money in an inspection. What are your thoughts on that?

One of the reasons I decided to go with an experimental is to have the ability to work on it myself. I'm an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force (previously a Crew Chief on F-16s and currently an engine guy on A-10s). I'm not an A&P on the civilian side, but I'm excited to learn about it!
 
Like I mentioned in my post. I would see if the seller would agree to a small non refundable deposit. Then hire someone to look at the plane. If it doesn't work for you can walk away from the deal. After the inspection there will be a long list of things you might want to address and this is where you can negotiate and or even see if this is the plane for you.

You are underestimating the difficulty in getting insurance with no tailwheel time. Most likely you will have to get 25 hours in the plane with an instructor (who has RV-6 time), which won't be so bad if you already own the plane.

Don't worry about the ground loop if it has been repaired properly.
 
SydneyACE said:
Thank you guys for ALL of the quick, thorough, and helpful responses!! I can tell this is a great community.

Sounds like an insurance quote is in order. I estimated based on posts I saw here that I could probably expect about $2,000 per year as a WORST case scenario (which would be doable). Does that seem about right for the high end? Do you guys have any recommendations on who to call for a quote (feel free to PM me)?

…………..

One of the reasons I decided to go with an experimental is to have the ability to work on it myself. I'm an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force (previously a Crew Chief on F-16s and currently an engine guy on A-10s). I'm not an A&P on the civilian side, but I'm excited to learn about it!
Click to expand...

The tailwheel thing might have a significant effect on the insurance quotes for a 270 hour pilot. I’d suggest that you call a broker (such as Haley Peek at BWi or Leah Ringeisen at Gallagher) and have that conversation. That TW endorsement should not be a difficult thing to arrange for you locally. Leah is my broker….she is one of those insurance agents that responds promptly to email and who diligently returns phone calls. Haley too.

Leah Ringeisen
877-520-6247
[email protected]
www.ajg.com/lightaircraft

Haley Peek | Alaska Office Branch Manager BWI Insurance
AK Office 907.202.5559 | HQ Office 800.666.4359 ext 105
Text 951.987.0064

————-

A little off-topic…if you got an A&P certificate (such as through JSAMTCC), you would be able to sign off on your own annual condition inspections. IA cert isn’t required. Depending on your specific MOS, that might be a straightforward process. Worth looking into maybe.

https://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become/experience

https://www.transportation.gov/careers/veterans/aviation-maintenance-technician
 
Last edited:
A good rule of thumb is 1% of the hull value plus whatever premium they add for your risk and experience levels. Falcon Aviation Insurance and Gallagher are good places to start. These are insurance brokers and not underwriters meaning they will both go to the “market” with your information and solicit a quote from various underwriters. The quotes from each underwriter in theory will be the same, the difference is the level of service that the broker provides you. How responsive are they are to your questions etc. That’s been my expense anyway.

I’ve bought and sold a few things and I would recommend this: real people like dealing with real people. Call the seller and let them know that you would like to see the airplane and have it inspected. Explain you will be buying an airline ticket and paying someone to come and take a look at their airplane. Ask them what faults if any the airplane has that they know about. Negotiate a price on the phone with consideration to these defects contingent upon verification of the airplanes condition by your hired professional. Ask them to hold the airplane until whatever that day you have your airline ticket (the sooner the better for you and the seller). They will understand the expense and hassle associated with your commitment as they have probably bought or sold an airplane before.

Generally, one of two things will happen at this point
1. Yes they will hold the airplane until the date on your airline ticket.
Or
2. They will tell you some else is on their way to take a look on XX day.

Either way if spending the money on an airline ticket and a pre-buy inspection for an airplane you MIGHT buy scare you, maybe airplane ownership is not something you are ready for just yet. You should consider ownership something like a marriage between you and this airplane. You invest a sum of money buying it and are now committed to fixing whatever goes wrong until the day you sell it. If you don’t repair and maintain it, the original sum of investment is at risk. Either way you lose whatever monetarily that the airplane needs in maintenance/repair during your tenure as owner. The builder and previous owners are something like the airplanes blood family. The original builder will have vast knowledge of what would appear to be minutia up until the point you are looking to solve a problem. These experimental aircraft are one off and have history unique to each. The earlier builds (think 3, 4, and 6) are even more so as the builder profile was generally a bit different than the later builds. The earlier builders had to locate and lay out all the rivet lines and often times scrounged for used instruments and rebuilt engines. Not all, but generally that’s the profile of what you see out on the ramp at Oshkosh. The more recent builds (think 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 14) have a world of suppliers eager to provide finished goods to the builder or “assembler” as a purist may call them. A lot less decisions are left up or forced (depending on how you see it) to/on the builder on the later models. This is why it is so critical to get the right person to inspect your potential RV-6 purchase.
 
You didn't refer to this so don't know if this suggestion is relevant. It would be immensely useful if you can spend some time with at least a couple of RVers and their plane. This could be just hangar time or flights. The most valuable resource would be an actual builder. This individual could provide the maximum information for time spent and would help you determine if this is a path you wish to pursue. Your knowledge gained of RV construction, aircraft ownership and maintenance would pay huge dividends as you shop for aircraft.

The suggestions you've received about insurance are very valid, this is a complication that many prospective buyers don't appreciate.

Best wishes for a successful conclusion to your search!
 
Last edited:
When I sold my Grumman a couple years ago as I had completed my RV-10 and didn't need 2 planes, here are the steps that the buyer and I took for a successful sale:

1. After conversations by phone and review of log book scans and photos, seller made a purchase price offer. After a bit of negotiation, we agreed a price, subject to a couple of contingencies. {Unless buyer and seller have an agreed price, no reason to spend the time and money to look at the plane}

2. I agreed to hold the plane for him for 7 days, so he could fly out and personally inspect the plane. We also negotiated a sales/purchase agreement we both found acceptable prior to his flight to see the airplane in person. Buyer then flew here commercially, and I picked him up at the airport and took him to my GA airport. He looked over the plane, asked more questions, and decided he wanted to proceed with the purchase.

3. Buyer paid an agreed $3,000 deposit, to hold the plane for 30 days to allow for a pre-buy inspection to be arranged and conducted. If the pre-buy inspection uncovered anything major, the buyer could cancel the contract and receive half his deposit back. (Seller would keep half to cover the costs of hanger, insurance, re-listing, etc.) Alternatively, buyer and seller could negotiate a change in price to cover any significant pre-buy inspection issues. If buyer decided not to purchase the plane for any reason other that inspection issues, seller retains the entire deposit. If buyer completes the purchase, the full $3000 deposit is applied to the purchase price.

4. Independent qualified mechanic did the pre-buy inspection and issued a written report to the buyer. {Report was clean, so no renegotiation of price was needed} Buyer also purchased a title report from an independent aircraft title company.

5. Buyer returned to seller's location to take possession of the aircraft. Buyer arranged a wire transfer for the remaining purchase amount to seller's account to occur immediately after buyer arrived and made a final inspection. Buyer stayed overnight. The next morning, after verifying that the wire transfer had occurred, seller signed the registration card and provided it to the buyer, and buyer began the flight home with his new aircraft.

This process worked out well for both of us, and we have remained in contact over the past couple of years since the sale. I believe it also provided each of us some assurance that we were reasonably protected from dishonesty by either party. Would it absolutely protect against an intelligent thief bent on wrong doing, probably not, but we were both comfortable with the process.

One other recommendation: As others have already written above, you need to find someone expert in the RV-6 and in inspection/maintenance of experimental aircraft to do your pre-buy inspection. My recommendation would be Vic Syracuse of Base Leg Aviation. ( https://baselegaviation.com/ ) Vic has literally written the book on experimental pre-buy inspections (Pre-Buy Guide For Amateur-Built Aircraft), is a DAR, A&P/IA, built an RV-6 (plus 10 others), and is in the business of working on experimental aircraft. Take a look at the "about" page on his website.

Best of luck in your purchase, and welcome to the world of Vans Aircraft.
 
Service bulletins

Check logs and the airframe to confirm all bulletins were completed or be aware of the ones you'll need to do after purchase. For example, buying my -4 I knew id need to de slosh the fuel tanks which is a huge job to do it right.

As for insurance they will just tell you that you need tail wheel and minimum of X hours in make/model to be covered and Y amount before you can carry passengers. I was about 32 years old buying my -4 with 450 hours and instrument rating but no tailwheel or RV time. I had to pay about 1900 in the first year for 50k of hull and had a minimum for X of 10 hours and minimum of Y for 20 or 25hr total in the -4 I think. I got my tailwheel endorsement and RV sign-off in the 10 hours to cover X and first time I ever flew my plane was also first time solo in the -4 (training in a -7) and i greased the landing. This was 2021.
 
EAA Hamilton MT

I know for a fact there are some RV fliers in Hamilton MT. If you haven’t met them yet ask around. EAA chapter is a good place to start

Jim Frisbie
RV 9A sold
RV 10 almost done
 
Big thanks to everyone for the advice!! Especially Dave for detailing out all of the steps he went through on his sale. That's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for.

My next steps are to get a few insurance quotes to make sure my rate will be reasonable...

...then I gotta figure out what a fair offer is. That's a tough one, as valuing something like a Vans is pretty tough. I don't want to insult the seller by going way too low, but I also don't want to overpay.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top