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FAA Inspector Tells RV-12 Builder He Must Take LSA Course To Maintain The Plane He Built

gmcjetpilot

gmcjetpilot

Well Known Member
EDIT:
Disregard. I am a EAB guy working with a RV-12 builder / pilot, helping do Phase 1. He told me this and was shocked. I think the shock part was he thought to class was 180 hours. I see he needs to take the 16 hour course before first annual/condition inspection. Any hints or tips on getting this training I will pass on.

Refs:
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac 65-32a.pdf

LSA Repairman Certificate for ELSA RV-12

Good afternoon all, I just received some interesting news regarding the repairmen certificate for the RV-12 ELSA that I am in the process of certifying. Since Van's Aircraft Inc. is listed as the manufacturer on the registration I have been told that I am not eligible to apply for the repairman...
vansairforce.net vansairforce.net
 
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As an experimental aircraft, anyone can work on it and perform whatever maintenance is required. The only reason for the 16 hour course (for an ELSA registered aircraft) is so you can sign the the logbook after a successful annual condition expection. Anyone who owns an ELSA aircraft whether they built it or not, can take the 16 hour course and get the certificate that allows them to sign the logbook after a successful annual condition inspection.
 
I'm sure the inspector that made this statement was thinking that the E-LSA is in the "Light-Sport" category, 21.190. E-LSA is in the "Experimental" category, 21.191(i).

When they wrote the rules for Light-Sport, they really got the wording messed up. There is way too many different uses of the "LSA" term. It is very confusing to many, including some FAA inspectors.
 
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OK I see a 120 hour 3 wk $4k course? The FAA guy said 180 hrs according to my student (owner builder of the RV-12iS). Where is the 12 hr course. The registration shows manufacturer is Van's Aircraft, but he built it one pop rivet at a time.🤔
 
gmcjetpilot said:
OK I see a 120 hour 3 wk $4k course? The FAA guy said 180 hrs according to my student (owner builder of the RV-12iS). Where is the 12 hr course. The registration shows manufacturer is Van's Aircraft, but he built it one pop rivet at a time.🤔
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When building an E-LSA from a kit, the kit manufacturer is listed as the "manufacturer". The actual "builder" is listed as manufacturer for E-AB.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
OK I see a 120 hour 3 wk $4k course? The FAA guy said 180 hrs according to my student (owner builder of the RV-12iS). Where is the 12 hr course. The registration shows manufacturer is Van's Aircraft, but he built it one pop rivet at a time.🤔
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He takes the 16-hour course...gets a certificate...takes the certificate and relevant information to the FSDO and then he gets the repairman cert inspection for the specific N number so long as he owns it.

This is his new "bible":


"104. REPAIRMAN (LSA) RATINGS. The repairman (LSA) certificate has two ratings: “inspection” or “maintenance.” The rating is identified on the repairman certificate with the appropriate limitation.
a. Inspection Rating Overview. The owner of an ELSA may apply for a repairman certificate with an inspection rating after completion of the required 16 hour training course. The training must be for the same class of aircraft for which the owner seeks inspection privileges. This rating allows an aircraft owner to perform the required annual condition inspection on an aircraft that he or she owns, which has been issued an airworthiness certificate under § 21.191(i). The aircraft will be identified on the owner’s repairman certificate by registration and serial number. If an individual owns several similar makes and models of LSA or owns an LSA in another class, that individual will be issued a repairman certificate that lists each aircraft that the repairman is eligible to inspect if the required training is completed."
 
OK there is a 2 day "2 Day Light Sport Repairman Inspection Course" which allows a builder to apply for repairman Certificate for the LSA they built.

Yes E-LSA and S-LSA are different. If you build a RV-12 it is a E-LSA but Van's is still listed as manufacture. Regardless unlike EAB, where you apply for a repariman certificate, with E-LSA you have to take the course first apparently. It may be because when you build an RV-12 you build it exactly like the S-LSA....

What if you deviate for the standard RV-12iS? What if you deviate from plans, engine, prop, wiring, panel,

I assume you can put your name on the plane?​
I assume you build a RV-12 and put a Viking engine in with your own prop and panel it is a E-LSA and you are listed as manufacture?​
I assume with a true E-LSA you just apply for a Repairman certificate no class needed?​

If you build a Van's RV-12 to S-LSA configuration, engine, prop, instruments, wiring... just as if Van's built it, then it is not an E-LSA? To get a Repairman certificate you have to take the course.

He does not need the $4500K 3 week course (RIGHT?) but a $475 two day course, then apply for repairman certificate. That is the bottom line. I will pass that info on. Thank you
 
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I don't think u can certify a RV12 with a viking engine as an ELSA - you would have to go the EAB route, because you deviated from the manufacturers design and kits. There are quite a few RV12s built as EABs.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
OK there is a 2 day "2 Day Light Sport Repairman Inspection Course" which allows a builder to apply for repairman Certificate for the LSA they built.

Yes E-LSA and S-LSA are different.

I assume you build a RV-12 and put a Viking engine in with your own prop and panel of your own design, it is a E-LSA... Then you apply for a Repairman certificate

If you build a Van's RV-12 to S-LSA configuration, engine, prop, instruments, wiring... just as if Van's built it, then it is not an E-LSA? To get a Repairman certificate you have to take the course. If you own any LSA you can take the longer course and can work on anyone's LSA as if you were an A&P to certified planes.

He does not need the the $4500K 3 week course but a $475 two day course, then apply for repairman certificate. Now you can work on the plane you built. If you take the long course you can work on any LSA.
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The course qualifies you to get the LSRM-I for an E-LSA you own, not necessarily one you built. I got it for my plane.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
OK there is a 2 day "2 Day Light Sport Repairman Inspection Course" which allows a builder to apply for repairman Certificate for the LSA they built.

Yes E-LSA and S-LSA are different.

I assume you build a RV-12 and put a Viking engine in with your own prop and panel of your own design, it is a E-LSA... Then you apply for a Repairman certificate
Click to expand...

No. If you build an RV-12 is the configuration you describe that could only be done as an EAB. It is not an E-LSA. You do need the repairman certificate or an A&P for the annual condition inspection of that aircraft.



gmcjetpilot said:
If you build a Van's RV-12 to S-LSA configuration, engine, prop, instruments, wiring... just as if Van's built it, then it is not an E-LSA?
Click to expand...

That configuration, technically any of the available configurations packaged by Van's, can be an E-LSA or EAB.


gmcjetpilot said:
To get a Repairman certificate you have to take the course. If you own any LSA you can take the longer course and can work on anyone's LSA as if you were an A&P to certified planes.
Click to expand...

To get the LSRM/I certificates you will need to take a course. 2 day for I, 15 day for M. With the I(inspection) you can do the annual inspection on an LSA that you own and have specifically listed on your LSR-I certificate. To repeat, you must own the aircraft and you must have FSDO list it on certificate.

If you do the 15 day you can work on and inspect any aircraft with one of the few light sport AW certs.

I left out details on other categories like powered parachute or glider, but the rules apply logically to each of those the same way.



gmcjetpilot said:
He does not need the the $4500K 3 week course but a $475 two day course, then apply for repairman certificate. Now you can work on the plane you built. If you take the long course you can work on any LSA.
Click to expand...

It sounds like the pilot in question would be best served by the 2 day course. They would then have the airplane they own (not built) listen on their LSRI certificate.

It's kind of a messy rule set for sure.
 
Mel said:
I'm sure the inspector that made this statement was thinking that the E-LSA is in the "Light-Sport" category, 21.190. E-LSA is in the "Experimental" category, 21.191(i).

When they wrote the rules for Light-Sport, they really got the wording messed up. There is way too many different uses of the "LSA" term. It is very confusing to many, including some FAA inspectors.
Click to expand...
Yup. And a picture is worth ... well, you know... (ignore the hand-drawn dark blue rectangle on the left)

i-QntRGLF-XL.jpg
 
N8DAV8R said:
No. If you build an RV-12 is the configuration you describe that could only be done as an EAB. It is not an E-LSA. You do need the repairman certificate or an A&P for the annual condition inspection of that aircraft.





That configuration, technically any of the available configurations packaged by Van's, can be an E-LSA or EAB.




To get the LSRM/I certificates you will need to take a course. 2 day for I, 15 day for M. With the I(inspection) you can do the annual inspection on an LSA that you own and have specifically listed on your LSR-I certificate. To repeat, you must own the aircraft and you must have FSDO list it on certificate.

If you do the 15 day you can work on and inspect any aircraft with one of the few light sport AW certs.

I left out details on other categories like powered parachute or glider, but the rules apply logically to each of those the same way.





It sounds like the pilot in question would be best served by the 2 day course. They would then have the airplane they own (not built) listen on their LSRI certificate.

It's kind of a messy rule set for sure.
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After you sell it, I think you can continue to perform the twelve month condition inspection on it....
 
N8DAV8R said:
No. If you build an RV-12 is the configuration you describe that could only be done as an EAB. It is not an E-LSA. You do need the repairman certificate or an A&P for the annual condition inspection of that aircraft.





That configuration, technically any of the available configurations packaged by Van's, can be an E-LSA or EAB.




To get the LSRM/I certificates you will need to take a course. 2 day for I, 15 day for M. With the I(inspection) you can do the annual inspection on an LSA that you own and have specifically listed on your LSR-I certificate. To repeat, you must own the aircraft and you must have FSDO list it on certificate.

If you do the 15 day you can work on and inspect any aircraft with one of the few light sport AW certs.

I left out details on other categories like powered parachute or glider, but the rules apply logically to each of those the same way.





It sounds like the pilot in question would be best served by the 2 day course. They would then have the airplane they own (not built) listen on their LSRI certificate.

It's kind of a messy rule set for sure.
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Talk to Brian Rainbow... seems like a personable guy!
 
cactusman said:
I don't think u can certify a RV12 with a viking engine as an ELSA - you would have to go the EAB route, because you deviated from the manufacturers design and kits. There are quite a few RV12s built as EABs.
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Roger! (y) I understand, so it is EAB, E-LSA or S-LSA... It is a bit confusing. I am learning. I need to come up to speed on LSA's.
Mel said:
When building an E-LSA from a kit, the kit manufacturer is listed as the "manufacturer". The actual "builder" is listed as manufacturer for E-AB.
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Got it. (y) Only dealt with EAB's last 30 years. I did learn the flight regulations for LSA, but not certification Regs.
N8DAV8R said:
No. If you build an RV-12 is the configuration you describe that could only be done as an EAB. It is not an E-LSA. You do need the repairman certificate or an A&P for the annual condition inspection of that aircraft.
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Affirmative. Got it.

Thanks everyone. My head hurts now. Ha ha. I have been avoiding LSA's, but now jumping in the deep end. I am enjoying learning the nuance of LSA Regs.... Heck I may take the LSRM course, stand at freeway off ramp with sign, will inspect LSA's for for food. Ha ha.
 
glongpilot said:
As an experimental aircraft, anyone can work on it and perform whatever maintenance is required. The only reason for the 16 hour course (for an ELSA registered aircraft) is so you can sign the the logbook after a successful annual condition expection. Anyone who owns an ELSA aircraft whether they built it or not, can take the 16 hour course and get the certificate that allows them to sign the logbook after a successful annual condition inspection.
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This is Correct!

Wait a second you left some info out! Does this RV12 have a viking engine on It? If your friend build an RV12 exactly the way Vans says, with a Rotax 912uls or a Rotax 912IS then its a E-LSA. However if he built it with a Different engine then it's an EAB!
 
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Jetguy said:
This is Correct!

Wait a second you left some info out! Does this RV12 have a viking engine on It? If your friend build an RV12 exactly the way Vans says, with a Rotax 912uls or a Rotax 912IS then its a E-LSA. However if he built it with a Different engine then it's an EAB!
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BUT, Remember, After certification, the owner of an E-LSA can make any modification he/she wants, as long as the mod does not take the aircraft out of LSA parameters. So, the engine could have been changed after certification.
 
Mel said:
BUT, Remember, After certification, the owner of an E-LSA can make any modification he/she wants, as long as the mod does not take the aircraft out of LSA parameters. So, the engine could have been changed after certification.
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Yes, but I assume like an EAB, if it is a major Mod like engine, prop, control or fuel system.... you need to involve FSDO and go back to Phase 1. It also has to still be within LSA parameters.
 
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