You mean definitely, right?
Van's Air Force
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Engine, Prop and Avionics Update posted
- Thread starter Brantel
- Start date
Brantel
Well Known Member
Yes, I am sick in the bed and on a cell phone without my glasses. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
To my mind the person responsible for this debacle is the CFO, and they have gone.
Ok, Rian should have kept his eye on the ball better, but if the info you’re getting from the CFO is that everything is fine, then what can you do?
Ultimately Rian has been replaced as President of the company, he’s still there because his engineering expertise would be impossible to replace I suspect.
I got my finish kit last week, I also got most of my replacements for the LCPs AND A Got an order from the on-line store, all within 3 days. AsI was doing inventory of the three different shipments it struck me how complex a job those folks do to keep all of this stuff straight. I also saw the of orders that they shipped in December from the December operating report to the court. (which would have been a significantly down month) We now know that their inventory control system was not up to par.
I think it is shocking how well the company operated prior to this. This is a classic (I Think) case of a small start-up growing up and in doing so not even realizing they were in over their heads. Engineering and airplanes they knew, but business practices they just got along how they always did until it got away. The “tribal knowledge” at Van‘s is irreplaceable. Glad they are getting the help they needed, too bad it cost a bunch of us (including Van’s) a bunch of money.
I had my order from the store in less than a week from order, and the USPS lost it for a couple of days. I believe the company will come out of this way stronger and in a better place than they were before.
My .02.
I think it is shocking how well the company operated prior to this. This is a classic (I Think) case of a small start-up growing up and in doing so not even realizing they were in over their heads. Engineering and airplanes they knew, but business practices they just got along how they always did until it got away. The “tribal knowledge” at Van‘s is irreplaceable. Glad they are getting the help they needed, too bad it cost a bunch of us (including Van’s) a bunch of money.
I had my order from the store in less than a week from order, and the USPS lost it for a couple of days. I believe the company will come out of this way stronger and in a better place than they were before.
My .02.
apicreator
Member
I got an online order (shipped overseas) and I see movements on my LCP orders. Hopefully that will ship soon. For once, I feel my energy and motivation coming back. I still have to figure out how to address the LCP in my QBs but that's a problem for future me.
Ordered TB first of March 2022. Called Chris April 2023 and was told they would have it out in May 2023. Silent until I called first of July 2023 and was told they would have it out in August. Called in August and I was told the TB line was down the month of August because of backordered rusty parts. ( I figure it was from the almost $600,000 they were owed by Vans). Next thing was Chapter 11 filing. I called Chris 2 times between December 2023 and January 2024 and asked him about changing my order to a standard 540 if that would speed up my engine order. He told me I was at the top of the list and that would only set my order back. I was in the first emails for the new engine contracts and I signed my within 15 minutes and returned it so I might assure that I stay at the top of the list. I called Chris 2 days later and he informed me that they were still in nogiations with Vans and didn't know when they would start back producing for Vans customers. He also informed me that I was now in the middle of the list and they would try to get my engine out by the end of 2024. Complete BS. I resigned a contract that says they can change my engine specifications and price at anytime between now and the 60 day notice of full payment. I would also like to know if anyone is being contacted for an engine delivery. My RV 10 is sitting waiting on an engine.
I’m receiving polite replies of nothing more than “we are waiting for Lycoming to get back to us with the schedule “ which is code for “things are stuck” (or worse). Not trying to stir the pot but we are talking about Lycoming which I am hoping has more manufacturing discipline than Vans and can estimate within a three month window accurately. Everything else is excuses
I am in the exact same boat as you Bearman. We ordered March 12, 2022. I signed the 'reorder' within minutes. I have sent emails to Greg, and Chris but no reply. When we call Vans directly we are told that they are taking final deposits for engines that will be delivered in the next few weeks. But they won't say when those people placed their order for some reason. Vans maintains that Lycoming is 'a separate company' and therefore unable to speak to order wait times. Lycoming doesn't seem to want to speak to us at all. Just a little transparency on Vans and Lycomings part would be appreciated. Those that bought through other engine suppliers like Barrett, etc seem to have made the better choice.
I talked to Barrett a year ago and if Lycoming would have been truthful about the delivery I would have ditched my $15,000 deposit, filed a claim and went with Barrett. I would have my engine by now. Now the wait with Barrett is more than 12 months. I have a friend that is in charge of 32 aircraft for a University Aviation School and they are working on a deal with Barrett for their engines. They have been doing business with Lycoming for a very long time but they are on 2 year + wait time for engines now and they can't keep things running with that lengthy schedule.
skylor
Well Known Member
Well I’ve had a set of piston/cylinder kits on order from Lycoming’s largest parts distributor for over a year. The original delivery date was supposed to be September, 2023 so I wouldn’t bet too much on Lycoming’s manufacturing discipline/schedule being much better than Van’s. I really don’t know how companies can think these lead times are acceptable!
Skylor
There is some irony here I think. We (the ”royal we”) are on here lamenting the long lead times we are seeing for items we want/need to continue our projects. Meanwhile the suppliers are (presumably) trying everything they can to shorten the lead times, which would make us all happy… so long as they don’t do something silly, like laser cut the parts.
I would guess two reasons. They have very little competition. They don't want to invest large sums of capital to meet the Covid induced ordering bubble that will soon burst. It could also be supply chain related but that excuse is getting pretty old.
I just wish there could be some reasonable transparency, like:
- We are still in negotiation with Lycoming. There is no plan to restart production of engines for Vans' orders until negotiations are complete.
- Negotiations are complete, we have an agreement with Lycoming, and it is in their hands to deliver a schedule for fulfilling the Vans orders.
georgemohr
Well Known Member
Data point for you all: our Hartzell prop shipment notification just came through.
Doug Rohrer
Well Known Member
Greg Hughes called me last week to advise that Lycoming was scheduled to build my IO-390-A3B6 next month, and he would be sending a request for final (revised) payment in the next few weeks. He said the engine would be shipped right after it was built. I have not received the official request for payment yet, but I was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Greg. My engine has been on order for 24 months. I am hopeful again.
Great news to hear! Please keep this thread updated!Greg Hughes called me last week to advise that Lycoming was scheduled to build my IO-390-A3B6 next month, and he would be sending a request for final (revised) payment in the next few weeks. He said the engine would be shipped right after it was built. I have not received the official request for payment yet, but I was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Greg. My engine has been on order for 24 months. I am hopeful again.
Thank you Doug! This gives me hope. My engine has also been on order for 24 months.
We definitely should all update this thread with actual data.
We definitely should all update this thread with actual data.
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Moresushi
Member
This is good news from Greg. Doug, Is this a TB?? I called Van's last Friday and spoke to Anne and she didn't have any word. My TB 540 has been on order 20 months.Greg Hughes called me last week to advise that Lycoming was scheduled to build my IO-390-A3B6 next month, and he would be sending a request for final (revised) payment in the next few weeks. He said the engine would be shipped right after it was built. I have not received the official request for payment yet, but I was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Greg. My engine has been on order for 24 months. I am hopeful again.
I spoke to Chris at Lycoming end of 2023 and he told me they would try to have it by the end of 2024. Mine is 540 TB and ordered over 2 years ago. I’m built out and waitin.
339A
Well Known Member
I’m now at a point with my RV 9A, that it’s going to need a new engine. I originally put a used engine on it, an H2AD. It has 2800 hours and starting to show some signs of lifter wear. I’m reluctant to plunk down a $10,000 deposit to Vans, not knowing if I can get an engine anytime soon. I’ve tried contacting Chris Gayman at Lycoming both via email and telephone calls but he doesn’t respond. If anyone has news or heard anything from Lycoming, I’d like to know what they’re saying. It seems like they’re being very tight lipped about the whole situation….
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Dan 57
Well Known Member
Frankly speaking I'd be too... there are clones around, equivalent prices or slightly more, same or better quality, and less wait.
Sure the way I'd go from afresh, unfortunately, having plonked my 9K deposit on a TB, not much of a choice.
PaulvS
Well Known Member
We are in the same sort of situation with our club 9A. Our engine does not need to be changed urgently, but we are concerned about long lead times. We are not comfortable with paying a deposit to Van's without knowing when or if we will get an engine. The Lycoming dealer quoted us $75K for a factory remanufactured O-320 D1A outright and a lead time of 15-18 months. We cannot afford that and fortunately we have found another lightly used engine with very low hours.
Regarding the H2AD engine, the layout is quite different to the models that Van's sells and if changing over there will need to be mods to baffling, fuel system, oil system and maybe the cowl.
339A
Well Known Member
For certain the Vans deal on the Lycoming engine is by far the best price out there. I’ve looked in to having the H2AD rebuilt, a minimum price is 32,000 with the upper end being around 39,000. Just not worth it on the H2AD engine. Especially when a brand new factory, Lycoming would be about 41,000. The Vans factory Lycoming is the best deal, but I’d like to get some commitment that I’m going to see it and not lose my money….
The fortunate thing is, my exhaust, engine mount and cowl will still all fit. I’ll have to make a few modifications and redo the baffles, but that’s about it.
The fortunate thing is, my exhaust, engine mount and cowl will still all fit. I’ll have to make a few modifications and redo the baffles, but that’s about it.
Dugaru
Well Known Member
Congratulations! I continue to think that the H2ADs out there (now that they’ve basically all been altered to fix the original issues) are a great value.
Doug Rohrer
Well Known Member
My engine is not a TB or even a 119EXP. It is the plain vanilla 210HP IO-390-A3B6. I understand from Greg that the TB engines are waaaay behind due to high demand and a very restricted construction schedule. I will advise when I get the request for final funds to keep this thread going.
Carl Froehlich
Well Known Member
I order my Thunderbolt IO-540 with Cold Air Sump June 2021. No word from Van’s or Lycoming on when I should expect it.
I hear rumor the Thunderbolt production line is not getting the mechanics it needs to meet the back orders, as well as other production problems. Anyone have insight on this being real or just speculation?
Carl
Got my TB YIO360M1B Feb 26. Ordered 23months ago.
Dan 57
Well Known Member
Cool and congrats! And thanks for the report.
I ordered my TB 360 some 24 months ago... who knows, there's still hope
Yea, getting in before that price increase didn't exactly work out for us, huh?
NavyS3BNFO
Well Known Member
Exactly. Something on a monthly basis. How about # of engines on order by model # (TB/non-TB). # or engines shipped in the last week/month. Oldest order placed. Come on Vans....
People have been asking for more frequent updates from Vans for 9 months now. Pretty sure at this point it 'aint gonna happen.
I received my final payment request yesterday for my IO-540 (non-TB), from Anne by email. There was no indication of when it might be delivered, just 'Lycoming are ready to start work on your engine'. I got no call from anybody on this, although I did receive a call a couple of weeks ago about my LCP replacements (which arrived yesterday, BTW).
I'm frankly surprised it happened this soon, and I'm wondering if I'm literally one of the first. But I'll definitely be happy when the engine is sitting here in my shop.
But I'm nervous, of course. Does anyone have a sense of how the company is doing? Should we have any concerns about sending them such a chunk of money at this time?
Carl Froehlich
Well Known Member
I got a note yesterday from Anne for final payment on my Thunderbolt Cold Air Sump IO-540. I ordered the engine June 2021.
Carl
Carl
Ted, when did you order?
I ordered in March of 2022, like a lot of builders that ordered right before the announced price increase at the time.
Looks like quite a few have received notices in the last couple of days. I hope that's a good sign.
Is that March 2022 or March 22, 2023?
I ordered the same engine April 18, 2023 at which time the lead time was 6-8 months.
I received an email June 13, 2023 from Nicole Gayman at Lycoming stating:
"Thank you for your order of a YIO-360-M1B Lycoming Engine with Vans Aircraft at Sun N Fun 2023!
We have received your engine order from Vans builders and we are very appreciative of your business. I am reaching out to all customers who ordered engines to determine when you will need your engine for your build. Lycoming is currently back logged on engine orders and is working hard to increase the output of our supply chain. In effort to schedule orders to ensure everyone gets their engine when they need it; please respond back to this email and let me know approximately when you will need your engine. I do not need an exact date; the month in which you think you will need the engine will help me coordinate the build schedule. I simply need to know when you need the engine to ensure we are not pacing your project. We will do our best to meet your needed timeframe but please understand that if we are able to increase output, to keep the pricing advantage, you will have to accept the engine when it is built."
I received an email from Matthew Boone at Vans on July 27, 2023 stating
"This is not a bill. Lycoming have offered your engine an estimated completion date of 16 November 2023 based on their current production forecast. This estimate is subject to change and is not a guaranteed delivery date."
I received an email from Christopher Gayman at Lycoming on December 16, 2023 stating:
Good Morning Van’s Aircraft Builders,
I have spoken to many of you over the last few weeks regarding questions that you have regarding your engine order for a Lycoming engine with Van’s Aircraft. As you may expect, many of you had the same questions and we wanted to take an opportunity to release an official communication that completely answers those questions.
As always, I will do my best to answer your specific questions that are not addressed here. Please understand that I am the single point of contact for Van’s engine orders and there are hundreds of you; please take that into account when trying to call or email me, I’ll do my best to get you an answer as quickly as possible.
Thank you again for choosing a genuine Lycoming engine for your build, whether that be a standard non-cert engine or a premium Thunderbolt engine. We look forward to getting you your dream engine for your project. We will supply you with more information regarding your order as soon as we can.
Have a great weekend, a happy holiday season, and a prosperous New Year!
Best regards,
attached was the 23LYC-VansStatement file below.
On January 30, 2024 I signed the "Van’s Aircraft, Inc. Third-Party Component Purchase and Deposit Modification Agreement"
I inquired from all the above parties about the order status on December 5, 2023 and January 30, 2024 and February 29, 2024. No replies.
I ordered my Hartzell propeller at the same time and received it July 26, 2023.
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iansrv6
Member
March 2022, my story almost exactly as the above. I agreed to an extended delivery keeping the price, that really worked out for us!
Well then maybe we will have report of a few deliveries before I have to pony up. My first trip over the pond was last November and we just happened on Liverpool the day The Beatles released their final song. We jammed all night at The Cavern Club to their cover band. Very cool!!!
bobrv7taildragger
Member
I got all the same baloney as you. didnt help at all to borrow money to lock the price in.
Doug Rohrer
Well Known Member
Like TedC I recently got an email from Anne at Van's asking for final full payment for my standard IO-390 engine. I was told my engine is in the next "batch" from Lycoming, which I was lead to believe is next month. I will be looking for delivery in the next 60 days. I hope I am not disappointed again.
Doug, when did you order that engine?
Doug, have you actually made the final payment to Van's?
