DCat22
Well Known Member
Yeah...I took that part out while you were writing this. Really more of a "how and why" discussion to have with someone just out of curiosity -- not because I want to use those. (No disagreement here.
)
Van's Air Force
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Engine out in IMC?
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Yeah...I took that part out while you were writing this. Really more of a "how and why" discussion to have with someone just out of curiosity -- not because I want to use those. (No disagreement here.
)
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Pictures would be good. It would be nice for all of us to be able to figure out the actual cause of the failure rather than just jumping to (largely unfounded) "solutions".
I have no access (at work) to the pictures you posted so far... Is your transducer hard mounted or is it "hanging" by the fuel line?
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Though I'm not an EAA tech counselor, as the A&P who performed the "pre buy" inspection on my buddy's -8, I can relate. In my case, the example is the sub-par flares "hidden" by the sleeves and nuts on the hard lines. Some faults are relatively easy to spot, such as the battery cable "zip tied" to the aluminum fuel line
, or the perfectly straight section of hard line connecting two hard mounted components . I missed many of these in the pre buy, but I'm finding all kinds of things wrong now that I'm neck deep into the airplane. Sometimes there really is no way to know what poor workmanship exists unless you completely disassemble the airplane.
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Although it is important to eliminate stress concentrations (nicks, burrs, tool marks, etc), doing so does not change a root cause of failure for aluminum parts exposed to cyclical stress.
Aluminum has no knee in its S-N curve. Given enough stress cycles aluminum parts eventually break, no matter how well prepared. This is not a problem if you can be sure the number of stress cycles in a lifetime will be low.
Here's the rub; anything attached to an engine can be exposed to a great number of cycles in a very few operating hours.
For example, assume a vibration at combustion event frequency. In this case (IO540) it would be a 3rd order vibration, or three cycles per crankshaft revolution. Assume 2400 RPM for cruise; 2400 x 3 x 60 minutes is 432,000 cycles in single flight hour.
The arbitrary number of cycles used to define the endurance limit of aluminum is usually 100 million. At 432,000 cycles per flight hour (in this grossly simplified explanation) the aluminum part is guaranteed to break in only 231 hours, even stressed at a very small percentage of its nominal strength. Higher stress, fully reversing stress, or stress concentration simply drives the number of hours to failure even lower.
So, please don't get the idea that "perfect" flaring and prep will somehow make aluminum lines immune to failure. It won't.
Here's a nice comparison S-N curve for steel vs aluminum:
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Materials/Mechanical/S-NFatigue.htm
Note how the curve for steel becomes a flat line by about 10^6 cycles. If stress amplitude is kept below the line the part will never fail due to fatigue. Now look at the aluminum curve and note it is still diving at 10^8 cycles....and it will continue that dive forever. This is why smart people use steel AN fittings on their engines.
My teacher called aluminum "frozen mush".
Aluminum has no knee in its S-N curve. Given enough stress cycles aluminum parts eventually break, no matter how well prepared. This is not a problem if you can be sure the number of stress cycles in a lifetime will be low.
Here's the rub; anything attached to an engine can be exposed to a great number of cycles in a very few operating hours.
For example, assume a vibration at combustion event frequency. In this case (IO540) it would be a 3rd order vibration, or three cycles per crankshaft revolution. Assume 2400 RPM for cruise; 2400 x 3 x 60 minutes is 432,000 cycles in single flight hour.
The arbitrary number of cycles used to define the endurance limit of aluminum is usually 100 million. At 432,000 cycles per flight hour (in this grossly simplified explanation) the aluminum part is guaranteed to break in only 231 hours, even stressed at a very small percentage of its nominal strength. Higher stress, fully reversing stress, or stress concentration simply drives the number of hours to failure even lower.
So, please don't get the idea that "perfect" flaring and prep will somehow make aluminum lines immune to failure. It won't.
Here's a nice comparison S-N curve for steel vs aluminum:
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Materials/Mechanical/S-NFatigue.htm
Note how the curve for steel becomes a flat line by about 10^6 cycles. If stress amplitude is kept below the line the part will never fail due to fatigue. Now look at the aluminum curve and note it is still diving at 10^8 cycles....and it will continue that dive forever. This is why smart people use steel AN fittings on their engines.
My teacher called aluminum "frozen mush".
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Nick
Well Known Member
No no, definitely not hanging. It is mounted to the Airflow Performance Throttle mount, which is in a nutshell... a massive 1/4 x 2.5 inch aluminum angle. Let me round up the camera and pull the cowl, visuals are always better.
Nick
Well Known Member
Now that sounds great! Can we postpone it 2 weeks? It looks like I actually get Saturdays off next month!
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
I don't see any problem in the tunnel either. And I'm basing this.... on close to 40 years of experience in the HVAC industry where we have copper and aluminum tubing, along with occasional flare fittings ----------that are next to the constant vibrations of an air conditioning compressor.
Of course, once we're transitioning from a firewall to a "bucking" engine on rubber mounts, then it's different. I do use fuel rated flex hoses for those purposes, including a steel fitting to the carb.
In the meantime, I still have those 1/8" copper primer lines to the engine with coils for relief. And I also have a 3/8" aluminum tube with a slight "S" bend for relief that runs from a 90 degree fitting on th firewall to the gascolator. It's about 6" long. Perhaps I'll change it to SS someday. IMO, I'd argue that it isn't any less safe, than fittings on the aft side of the firewall in regards to actual failure from stress. The other matter would be firesleeve, as well as turning the fuel supply to off.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Point well taken and to clarify: If you are going to manufacture a hardline (or any part, for that matter), do it in accordance with aerospace standards. As you point out, the wrong material selection (for the application) can not be "fixed" with even flawless execution. Conversely though, a poorly executed part will fail far below its rated service.
Bottom line: Find the right material for the application and execute it correctly.
And finally, I'm not a fan of aluminum line in general, especially FWF.
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
I'll confess I hadn't heard the firewall part of this before, and I'm pretty sure I've seen production aircraft that use either aluminum or copper line for plumbing on the firewall (for example for a gascolator, which are often also made of aluminum). I've seen the same on quite a few homebuilt aircraft, including mine. Maybe I should be re-thinking this though?
No argument about lines attached to the engine in any way. Interesting though that Lycoming uses aluminum for the oil return lines from the cylinder heads.
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
Hey Nick, I think we have very similar ideas about risk management in the IFR environment. No intent to call your judgment into question; I was just wondering if this was one of those events that might carry enough significance within the context of your flying career/life that might cause a change in your thinking.
BTW, if you fly for Expressjets I might see you some day on my weekly OKC-ORD commute. Once again, a superb job there buddy!
BTW, if you fly for Expressjets I might see you some day on my weekly OKC-ORD commute. Once again, a superb job there buddy!
Nick
Well Known Member
I did not pull the prop. Oddly enough, the last few days in the pattern I have been playing with full pitch and its effect on glide. With the engine at Idle it makes a very noticeable difference. I?ve always wondered how the engine would react with the prop pulled and no fuel. A perfect opportunity missed? I can tell you I had oil pressure all the way to the ground. According to the Data Log, Oil Pressure didn?t drop below 65 psi until rollout. What happens when you pull the prop and RPM starts to drop? Obviously Oil Press is going to come down, but is it enough to hold the prop Course? That I don?t know.
Absolutely no offence taken Bill, I never thought you where second guessing. I answered the question the way I did because those are the questions I?m asking myself right now. Will the way I fly single engine airplanes change? I don?t know yet?
Yup, I?m an Express guy. Great company all in all, I called my boss just to let them know what happened, he already knew. Kinda scary actually!
Thanks everyone for all the kind words, it means more to me that I can ever express.
msturgis
Well Known Member
Haha.. Sorry I may have had something to do with that... Great job Nick.. You made us Jetlinkers look good....
jetjok
Well Known Member
My guess is that due to the fact that these lines are secured on both ends by rubber tubing, and are connected only to each respective cylinder, makes this a non-issue.
Add me to the fire sleeved flex line supporters!
Nick
Well Known Member
I've decided to go the Flex line route... Hindsight is always 20/15.
Actually, the return lines (on our 540) is flared and fitted to an AN Fitting on the Cylinder. Only the Case side has the rubber hose. Makes you wonder.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
I'm getting back to the basics of this post. Based on my experience, and many others, the fuel flow fluctuations when using the fuel pump, are of little consequence. Unless of course, you're using an aux. fuel pump full time. Even when using the aux. pump for start up, takeoffs, and landings.........the measurements can be of such accuracy, that the difference is almost unnoticeable.
I'd much rather have a cockpit secured.... fuel flow transducer, than have the mass of the unit, along with extra flare connections bouncing out there with the engine revolutions. By bringing it back to the cockpit, you can also eliminate various twist and turns of the tubing for firewall installations. If a line does somehow become disconnected or break within the cockpit, the aroma of fuel will also be detected earlier, in which you can cut off the fuel supply.
Well, that's my thoughts on the subject. I've never been keen to the idea of hanging a fuel flow transducer off the side of a carburetor, and secured in fire sleeve. I just think it's two more possible points for problems. You have to make sure it's secure, but you can't actually mount it to anything. I don't care for one on the top of the engine either.
I thought about this a long time, before mounting mine on the sidewall of my RV6A, as so many have done in the past...... with good sucess.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
I'd much rather have a cockpit secured.... fuel flow transducer, than have the mass of the unit, along with extra flare connections bouncing out there with the engine revolutions. By bringing it back to the cockpit, you can also eliminate various twist and turns of the tubing for firewall installations. If a line does somehow become disconnected or break within the cockpit, the aroma of fuel will also be detected earlier, in which you can cut off the fuel supply.
Well, that's my thoughts on the subject. I've never been keen to the idea of hanging a fuel flow transducer off the side of a carburetor, and secured in fire sleeve. I just think it's two more possible points for problems. You have to make sure it's secure, but you can't actually mount it to anything. I don't care for one on the top of the engine either.
I thought about this a long time, before mounting mine on the sidewall of my RV6A, as so many have done in the past...... with good sucess.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
ALUMINUM LINES
Great job of getting down safely. I have not seen one mention of the TYPE of aluminum that should be used on fuel lines(AFT OF THE FIREWALL ONLY)
5052 is the ONLY type of aluminum that I would use for any flared line. The hardware stuff Vans apparently still supplys is way too soft, 2024 and other harder aluminum is too hard too flare properly. Fire sleeved aircraft hose ONLY forward of the firewall except for those parts proven by the engine manufacturer to be satisfactory, such as Lyc injector lines and oil drain hoses. For the 5052 lines, after cutting with a QUALITY-SHARP tubing cutter, if you spend some time cleaning up the end with a fine mill file, VERY lightly debur the id, preferably with a single flute countersink, very lightly chamfer the od with the file, and then polish with 400 wet or dry with some lubricant. Then flare with the proper tool and you will not have any cracks. If you get cracks in the flare you are probably making the flare too big.
Great job of getting down safely. I have not seen one mention of the TYPE of aluminum that should be used on fuel lines(AFT OF THE FIREWALL ONLY)
5052 is the ONLY type of aluminum that I would use for any flared line. The hardware stuff Vans apparently still supplys is way too soft, 2024 and other harder aluminum is too hard too flare properly. Fire sleeved aircraft hose ONLY forward of the firewall except for those parts proven by the engine manufacturer to be satisfactory, such as Lyc injector lines and oil drain hoses. For the 5052 lines, after cutting with a QUALITY-SHARP tubing cutter, if you spend some time cleaning up the end with a fine mill file, VERY lightly debur the id, preferably with a single flute countersink, very lightly chamfer the od with the file, and then polish with 400 wet or dry with some lubricant. Then flare with the proper tool and you will not have any cracks. If you get cracks in the flare you are probably making the flare too big.
panhandler1956
Well Known Member
Wow!
Great post Nick! Good job keeping your cool and getting it on the ground!
Thanks for sharing!
Great post Nick! Good job keeping your cool and getting it on the ground!
Thanks for sharing!
This doesn't bother me. It's very low flow and essentially atmospheric pressure. It ruptures, it drips. Pressurized oil, bad. Pressurized fuel, much more bad.
I have nothing but steel fittings and firesleeved hose FWF, with the exception of the gascolator. No aluminum fuel (or oil) line anywhere except rigid routing behind the firewall.
Engine failure
Great job Nick,
Speaking of single engine IMC or night, I'm reminded of what one old grizzled flight instructor told me once. "If you loose an engine at night turn on your landing light. When you get down low enough, If you don't like what you see, turn it off"
Thank's for sharing your experience.
Great job Nick,
Speaking of single engine IMC or night, I'm reminded of what one old grizzled flight instructor told me once. "If you loose an engine at night turn on your landing light. When you get down low enough, If you don't like what you see, turn it off"
Thank's for sharing your experience.
Bill Dicus
Well Known Member
Pwr out
Nick: A wonderful job and thank you for the post. I'll rethink everything in the fuel course..... Bill
Nick: A wonderful job and thank you for the post. I'll rethink everything in the fuel course..... Bill
rvmills
Well Known Member
Nick,
Just an incredibly cool head and superb job of flying the airplane and making some great critical decisions under pressure!
There are so many gems to take from this story because you have been willing to share so candidly...from the great things you did (flying the airplane, finding the field, use of all the tools available, great comms with ATC, etc) to the few you wish you had done (fuel off, perhaps prop back, etc)(and IMHO, the former far outnumbers the latter) to the underlying causes and the follow-on discussion here. I (and I'm sure all of us reading) will take much from this, and are better prepared because you shared. Great job!
And thanks to the follow-on posters for the great discussion on proper FWF fuel line materials and techniques...really valuable. Thanks Dan for the frank pointer that perfect technique on improper materials still makes for bad juju. As a buyer/tinkerer (vs. builder), I've had good mentors, and have been systematically changing out aging FWF flex lines (with add-on firesleve) with high aircraft quality firesleeved flex lines (in my case from Sac Sky Ranch). This story make me feel very good about that choice, and will have me looking under the hood very closely (again) at all hoses, lines, fittings and security of all. Thanks to all for sharing!
Cheers,
Bob
Just an incredibly cool head and superb job of flying the airplane and making some great critical decisions under pressure!
There are so many gems to take from this story because you have been willing to share so candidly...from the great things you did (flying the airplane, finding the field, use of all the tools available, great comms with ATC, etc) to the few you wish you had done (fuel off, perhaps prop back, etc)(and IMHO, the former far outnumbers the latter) to the underlying causes and the follow-on discussion here. I (and I'm sure all of us reading) will take much from this, and are better prepared because you shared. Great job!
And thanks to the follow-on posters for the great discussion on proper FWF fuel line materials and techniques...really valuable. Thanks Dan for the frank pointer that perfect technique on improper materials still makes for bad juju. As a buyer/tinkerer (vs. builder), I've had good mentors, and have been systematically changing out aging FWF flex lines (with add-on firesleve) with high aircraft quality firesleeved flex lines (in my case from Sac Sky Ranch). This story make me feel very good about that choice, and will have me looking under the hood very closely (again) at all hoses, lines, fittings and security of all. Thanks to all for sharing!
Cheers,
Bob
Ron Lee
Well Known Member
My recollection is that my fuel line hoses are basically rubber (probably with metal inside the rubber). They are fire sleeved.
My question is what is a safe useful life for that type hose? Unless the second owner changed them, they are around 13 years old. I prefer to replace something "too soon" than wait for it to fail due to aging, especially critical items like fuel hoses.
Reply to Sam's post below: Thanks Sam. They will be replaced. I will look into the teflon hoses mentioned. Cheap is relative. I can go cheap on lunch, breakfast, pens, socks, towels, etc. Fuel lines are not a place to forego proper replacement intervals or lesser materials.
I need to check my logbook. Actually I may have replaced them when the engine was rebuilt. I may upgrade to a better hose even if I did.
My question is what is a safe useful life for that type hose? Unless the second owner changed them, they are around 13 years old. I prefer to replace something "too soon" than wait for it to fail due to aging, especially critical items like fuel hoses.
Reply to Sam's post below: Thanks Sam. They will be replaced. I will look into the teflon hoses mentioned. Cheap is relative. I can go cheap on lunch, breakfast, pens, socks, towels, etc. Fuel lines are not a place to forego proper replacement intervals or lesser materials.
I need to check my logbook. Actually I may have replaced them when the engine was rebuilt. I may upgrade to a better hose even if I did.
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Ron,
The stainless-braided rubber Aeroquip hose that many of us use has a recommended service life of five years, and shelf life of seven years, if I recall correctly (trying to remember the source of that info, think it was the Aeroquip website).
I change my hoses on a five year cycle even though I've never seen any evidence of degradation. Next time I'll probably get some nice teflon hoses with integral firesleeve.
I did this the last time I changed hoses. They are not cheap, but they are REALLY nice, and the integrated firesleeve is beautiful.
Nice job Nick.
Nice work especially in the soup. Your kudos to AFS are well deserved as I also use their equipment and constantly see small airports shown on EFIS that don't show on the 430. Also I have to agree on the flexible fuel line opinion. In addition to the 7 I also have a Meyers 200D and every fuel line connecting to the engine is flexible in one by design and we've never had a failure. The only line break I've experienced in the Meyers was a stainless hydraulic line that separated after 40 years due to vibration. Go figure!
Don Riggs
RV-7
1/2 Meyers 200D
Nice work especially in the soup. Your kudos to AFS are well deserved as I also use their equipment and constantly see small airports shown on EFIS that don't show on the 430. Also I have to agree on the flexible fuel line opinion. In addition to the 7 I also have a Meyers 200D and every fuel line connecting to the engine is flexible in one by design and we've never had a failure. The only line break I've experienced in the Meyers was a stainless hydraulic line that separated after 40 years due to vibration. Go figure!
Don Riggs
RV-7
1/2 Meyers 200D
Jerry Cochran
Well Known Member
Congrats, Nick...
I wonder how many of us less-than-professional pilots would have handled a similar situation with your professional aplomb? It makes me want to go out and practice more engine outs with various scenarios... I'm VFR only for instance and wonder how I would have handled an engine out "on top"..
Good time to grab a friend safety pilot and go find out, pretty easy to simulate.
Many lessons here, like upgrade my GPS to a unit that shows private airfields, what a no-brainer. Garmin are you listening? The whole hard line alum/SS/Flex line discussion may save someone's life who reads this thread.
Vibration: When I was young I raced motorcycles and would spend about an hour racing on Sunday, then a couple nights during the week tracking down all the vibration-caused defects. I think about that every time I feel the "buzz" on the floorboards. Yes, the engine/prop have been balanced.
.
I wonder how many of us less-than-professional pilots would have handled a similar situation with your professional aplomb? It makes me want to go out and practice more engine outs with various scenarios... I'm VFR only for instance and wonder how I would have handled an engine out "on top"..
Good time to grab a friend safety pilot and go find out, pretty easy to simulate.
Many lessons here, like upgrade my GPS to a unit that shows private airfields, what a no-brainer. Garmin are you listening? The whole hard line alum/SS/Flex line discussion may save someone's life who reads this thread.
Vibration: When I was young I raced motorcycles and would spend about an hour racing on Sunday, then a couple nights during the week tracking down all the vibration-caused defects. I think about that every time I feel the "buzz" on the floorboards. Yes, the engine/prop have been balanced.
.
I have a 3/8" aluminum "u" tube that runs from the gascolator to the fuel flow tranducer. Both the gascolator and fuel flow tranducer are attached to the firewall. There is a flexible hose that then runs from the fuel flow tranducer to the engine fuel pump.
Many builders have used this set-up with the "u" tube as that is where I got the idea. Since there is no direct connection between the aluminum tube and the engine (and therefore less motion) I am wondering if this a safe configuration or whether I should consider changing to teflon with a firesleeve.
Would be interested in comments especially since there are a bunch of us out there with this configuration.
Thanks.
Peter K
9A-150hrs
Many builders have used this set-up with the "u" tube as that is where I got the idea. Since there is no direct connection between the aluminum tube and the engine (and therefore less motion) I am wondering if this a safe configuration or whether I should consider changing to teflon with a firesleeve.
Would be interested in comments especially since there are a bunch of us out there with this configuration.
Thanks.
Peter K
9A-150hrs
Nick
Well Known Member
Larry,
I used an Excel macro from
http://www.mikesrv9a.com/AFS_data_macros.html
It does a great job of displaying EGT's, CHT's, etc and also outputs a Google Earth file. Great stuff.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
...and does your tube look like this?:
I personally replace aluminum with stainless steel tube anywhere there is the possibility of external damage (from feet kicking, for instance) or for the FWF because of fire. While a properly prepared aluminum tube (see above for how NOT to do it) might do just fine in your application, if you add fire or a well placed exhaust leak, all bets are off with the butter soft aluminum.
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L.Adamson
Well Known Member
...and does it look like this?:
I personally replace aluminum with stainless steel tube anywhere there is the possibility of external damage (from feet kicking, for instance) or for the FWF because of fire. While a properly prepared aluminum tube (see above for how NOT to do it) might do just fine in your application, if you add fire or a well placed exhaust leak, all bets are off with the butter soft aluminum.
I must say...............that's a mighty bad flare (or is it flair?) ...
In regards to "fire", if you have any presence of mind to turn that fuel selector to "off", it's still your best bet! A fuel fed fire won't last long, once you cut the supply. If somehow, it's oil fed, and the oil atomizes well enough to sustain the fire, then aluminum tubing won't matter much anyhow.
L.Adamson ---- RV6A
Ok...in which case I would call it risky. Not for-sure dangerous, just risky.
Here's the thing. The flex hose between the cube and the engine-driven pump isn't 100% flexible, in particular the teflon and SS braid variety. When the engine moves it transmits some force to the cube, which is, in theory, firmly fixed in space. If the cube really is fixated it will isolate the upstream hard line from that force. If the hard line sees no oscillating stress, it will not fatigue.
But....is that cube really firmly fixed in space? Given it is only fastened to the firewall sheet, probably not. A sheet is not structurally stiff in all axis. Most likely some vibratory load is moving the cube and thus reaching the hard line.
Which returns us to the risk. If the loads are very very small (a stress level way down the S-N chart), you'll get billions of cycles before the tube fails. If the loads are higher you'll get less cycles. Nobody has any way of knowing the amplitude of the oscillating stress.
To improve the odds, you could (1) improve fixation of the cube, or (2) improve the fatigue characteristics of the hard line (switch to steel), or (3) switch to a flex line. I'm of the opinion that you should do (1) regardless. Whatever component might be the last link in the chain before the flex line to the fuel pump should be mounted to stiff structure.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
I agree. Unfortunately, the airplane is riddled with tube assemblies just like this. I'm very disapointed that someone thought this was acceptable.
...My "simple" oil pump change keeps getting better and better all the time.
With reguard to the oil return lines on the Lycomings, I,ve changed many of them in my carrer that were broken right at the flair neck. Ive also seen many flairs that were smashed beyond use cause someone tightened it to tight or too many times.
Good Job Nick - Very professional!
Good Job Nick - Very professional!
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
Looks like just plain poor technique to me. Its easy to produce far better results on soft aluminum with the relatively inexpensive Rolo-flair tool if you're careful. This one looks like some wild animal was gnawing on it...
Check out A/C Spruce page 121 in current catalog (I'm assuming this is the type hose being refered to?):
AEROQUIP AE466 Integral silicone firesleeves on Teflon 666 hose assemblies.
This hose/sleeve combination meets the test requirements
of TSO-C53A Type D and TSO-C75 Type IIIA
and IIIB. The Silicone sleeve is applied directly onto
the metal braid an fittings to form a smooth, tight bond.
Hose flexibility is not impaired. Non-age sensitive for
extra-long service life. Eliminates the use of band
clamps. Temperature range -65?F to +450?F. Specify hose size and length
of assembly in inches and eighths of an inch from sealing surface to sealing
surface. Available in blue or brown.
AEROQUIP AE466 Integral silicone firesleeves on Teflon 666 hose assemblies.
This hose/sleeve combination meets the test requirements
of TSO-C53A Type D and TSO-C75 Type IIIA
and IIIB. The Silicone sleeve is applied directly onto
the metal braid an fittings to form a smooth, tight bond.
Hose flexibility is not impaired. Non-age sensitive for
extra-long service life. Eliminates the use of band
clamps. Temperature range -65?F to +450?F. Specify hose size and length
of assembly in inches and eighths of an inch from sealing surface to sealing
surface. Available in blue or brown.
I'm not Mel, but I got my hoses with integral firesleeve from PHT in Tulsa: http://www.aircrafthose.com/
Fast and friendly service and good prices.
mcb
Avengerboss
Well Known Member
Nicks Dead stick
Awesome job Nick, You were a great pilot chasing me in that Titan back in those Ultralight day's and you just kept on going. Good thing your dad pushed dead sticks all the time uh?? Donnie Eccker RV8A N63DE
Awesome job Nick, You were a great pilot chasing me in that Titan back in those Ultralight day's and you just kept on going. Good thing your dad pushed dead sticks all the time uh?? Donnie Eccker RV8A N63DE
Craig1022
I'm New Here
Emergency Runways
Hi All,
It's for just this type of scenario (engine out, IMC) that I created my website over a year ago: http://www.emergencyrunways.com
To understand what this is for, please read the "About Us" page (link at bottom). Basically it's user entered emergency places to land.
I have two prominent GPS companies that are interested in carrying the database, but we need way more "Emergency Runways" to really make it useful.
Craig
Hi All,
It's for just this type of scenario (engine out, IMC) that I created my website over a year ago: http://www.emergencyrunways.com
To understand what this is for, please read the "About Us" page (link at bottom). Basically it's user entered emergency places to land.
I have two prominent GPS companies that are interested in carrying the database, but we need way more "Emergency Runways" to really make it useful.
Craig
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Welcome to VAF, Craig....
I have reset my 430W 'nearest' feature to Hard/soft runways but haven't yet tried the 'nearest' button in flight to see if the private strips are included.
Do any of you guys know whether they are, or is it only public use airports that are shown?
Thanks,
I have reset my 430W 'nearest' feature to Hard/soft runways but haven't yet tried the 'nearest' button in flight to see if the private strips are included.
Do any of you guys know whether they are, or is it only public use airports that are shown?
Thanks,
I got mine from "Precision Hose Technology" (PHT) in Tulsa, OK. Great service at a fair price. 800-331-5946.
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