EFIS/Nav Techniques

[GrinchF16]

My RV7A is configured with 2x Skyview Classic displays, a GPS-175, and a panel mounted iPad mini. This question is for those with a similar configuration. I fully understand the benefit of a pure Garmin panel, so not interested in that debate.

Whats your technique? Do you fly using the GPS175 the entire time for navigating and forego the benefits of the Dynon FPL and associated menu? Do you fly Dynon GPS until you arrive in the terminal area then switch to GPS175 for arrival and approach? It seems that the easiest communication amongst the systems occurs when I fully use the GPS175 but I hate giving up the simplicity and features of the Skyview. Adding a Trig 56A this week so I think it’s only going to get a bit more complicated. Is there something I’m completely missing? One thing I know for certain is that you have to pay very close attention to the “source” on PFD and Map… ask me how I know that one.

TIA
Brian

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Reasonably similar setup...Dynon SV and a G430W. Since the Dynon isn't legal for IFR approaches, I've always just done all the flight planning on the 430 and let it drive the map and the autopilot. The few times I monkeyed around with the SV FP, and switched from one to the other, you guessed it...I had one source driving the map, the other driving the FP/AP, and all sorts of confusion for a minute or two. Fortunately, in VFR, but IMO, just pick *one*, set up everything to use that as the source, and be done with it. Minimize mode changes, IOW.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Same process as above using the GTN-650. All flight plans are in the GTN-650. The 650 drives SkyView HSI and it is selected for the GTN-650 or GTN nav for VOR, LOC and GS. The SkyView translating the 650 GS data for VNAV to the SkyView autopilot during GPS approaches is right on the mark.

I use Foreflight for flight planning. I fat finger the flight plan into the GTN-650, but use the SkyVIew WiFi to load the flight plan from the iPad into the SkyVIew. That way if the 650 goes south it is easy to shift over to the SkyView as primary nav.

As a side note - I enter the flight plan into the 650 after engine start. This takes only a few minutes and I’m done before the engine gets warm.

I disagree with the concept of “the benefit of a pure Garmin panel”. I fly with the 650 only because it Is the least bad of all the bad certified GPS navigators.

Carl

 

[Dugaru]

Since the Dynon isn't legal for IFR approaches, I've always just done all the flight planning on the 430 and let it drive the map and the autopilot.

Same here, using a GRT EFIS and a 430. I rarely look at the moving map pages of the GRT. I spend a lot of time looking at charts/traffic/etc. on my iPad with ForeFlight.

 

[MacCool]

I have an Advanced Flight 5400 as PFD, an Advanced Flight 3500 as moving map and ADS-B display, an IFD440 as navigator.I have a LOT of options. I also use a couple of iPads.

For navigation I can select between the AFS or the IFD440 as GPS source and run either through the AFS5400 and 4500 for navigation. When I was using a 430W navigator, I flew mostly with the 5400 as GPS because I found the 430W to be a PITA for navigation entry. The IFD440 is SO much easier to use that now I enter all navigation data through it, using it as my GPS. Data entry can be done via touch keyboard, or a remote keyboard, or an iPad Mini running IFD100, or I can just upload the flight plan from Foreflight. The PFD is HSI and engine instruments, and the 3500 is moving map and ADS-B In. Likewise, I can slave the autopilot to either the PFD, or the IDD440. I almost always fly that way as it's by far the simplest for me.

 

[Dugaru]

I found the 430W to be a PITA for navigation entry.

It absolutely is. When I'm IFR (and thus have to use the 430W), ForeFlight is a lifesaver because it will allow you to key in clearances using airways, and then highlight the waypoints that represent "bends" in those airways. Makes it much easier to turn airways into 430-speak. Entering airways into the 430 without Foreflight would be ghastly.

The inability to quickly key airways into the 430 is probably its greatest flaw, especially considering that at least one of its contemporary (and eventually Garmin owned!) gadgets, the 480, handled that no problem. My 430's overriding advantage is that it does the job, and it's installed and paid for. OMG have you seen what they want for IFR navigators these days.

 

[MacCool]

It absolutely is. When I'm IFR (and thus have to use the 430W), ForeFlight is a lifesaver because it will allow you to key in clearances using airways, and then highlight the waypoints that represent "bends" in those airways. Makes it much easier to turn airways into 430-speak. Entering airways into the 430 without Foreflight would be ghastly.

The inability to quickly key airways into the 430 is probably its greatest flaw, especially considering that at least one of its contemporary (and eventually Garmin owned!) gadgets, the 480, handled that no problem. My 430's overriding advantage is that it does the job, and it's installed and paid for. OMG have you seen what they want for IFR navigators these days.

I gave Stein $11,000 for the IFD440 a couple of years ago, minus the 430W which I sold here for $4000. I'm sure they're more now. The install of the IFD440 was truly a 15 minute slide-in process. Pull out the 430W, slide in the IFD440. It did take an additional 15 minutes to transfer over the configuration settings from the 430W. The IFD440 is absolutely night and day from an ease-of-use standpoint and accepts on-the-fly en route changes from Foreflight.

ETA: the IFD navigators are TSO'd for IFR too, as you're probably aware

 

[Dugaru]

I gave Stein $11,000 for the IFD440 a couple of years ago, minus the 430W which I sold here for $4000. I'm sure they're more now. The install of the IFD440 was truly a 15 minute slide-in process. Pull out the 430W, slide in the IFD440. It did take an additional 15 minutes to transfer over the configuration settings from the 430W. The IFD440 is absolutely night and day from an ease-of-use standpoint and accepts on-the-fly en route changes from Foreflight.

ETA: the IFD navigators are TSO'd for IFR too, as you're probably aware

Oh yes, I’ve got my eye on the 440 when the 430 finally gives up the ghost. I’ve come to appreciate true (as opposed to alleged…) plug-in replacements.

 

[MacCool]

Oh yes, I’ve got my eye on the 440 when the 430 finally gives up the ghost. I’ve come to appreciate true (as opposed to alleged…) plug-in replacements.

I was VERY skeptical of the alleged "plug-and-play" capability of the IFD 440, but it really is just as advertised.

 

[newt]

It absolutely is. When I'm IFR (and thus have to use the 430W), ForeFlight is a lifesaver because it will allow you to key in clearances using airways, and then highlight the waypoints that represent "bends" in those airways. Makes it much easier to turn airways into 430-speak. Entering airways into the 430 without Foreflight would be ghastly.

The inability to quickly key airways into the 430 is probably its greatest flaw, especially considering that at least one of its contemporary (and eventually Garmin owned!) gadgets, the 480, handled that no problem. My 430's overriding advantage is that it does the job, and it's installed and paid for. OMG have you seen what they want for IFR navigators these days.

My workflow for entering IFR flight plans into the 430W is to switch the G3X Touch to "Internal" navigation mode, enter the flight plan there, use Menu->Send To Navigator to crossfill the plan to the 430W, then switch back to "external" navigation.

Still need to use the 430W to enter procedures, but a plan with a dozen waypoints is way quicker to enter on the MFD's QWERTY touchscreen keyboard than it is to roll through the 430W's large/small knob dance.

I've already resigned myself to replacing the 430W with a GTN when it runs out of enough oxygen to need a repair. US$3500 + shipping for a "standard repair fee" makes keeping the 430W in service after the next fault uneconomic even if it's still technically repairable.

- mark

 

[Dugaru]

US$3500 + shipping for a "standard repair fee" makes keeping the 430W in service after the next fault uneconomic even if it's still technically repairable.

Indeed. Garmin’s official policy is to punish us mercilessly for… using one of their products for too long. I’m a fan of capitalism, but I still don’t think I could look a customer in the eye and tell them it will cost $3500 plus shipping to replace a battery.

 

[olyolson]

Indeed. Garmin’s official policy is to punish us mercilessly for… using one of their products for too long. I’m a fan of capitalism, but I still don’t think I could look a customer in the eye and tell them it will cost $3500 plus shipping to replace a battery.

Widget had a great post about replacing the GTN 650 battery- see here:

GTN650 Internal Battery Replacement

I was getting a "Low Internal Clock Battery" message every time I started my GTN 650. I affects how fast the unit will find and lock onto satellites. Eventually, if the battery dies, your 650 will continue to operate, but initial positioning may take a long time. I dug around and found an old...

vansairforce.net

 

[Dugaru]

Widget had a great post about replacing the GTN 650 battery- see here:

GTN650 Internal Battery Replacement

I was getting a "Low Internal Clock Battery" message every time I started my GTN 650. I affects how fast the unit will find and lock onto satellites. Eventually, if the battery dies, your 650 will continue to operate, but initial positioning may take a long time. I dug around and found an old...

vansairforce.net

Great stuff! I predict there will be quite a bit of do-it-yourself 430 and 530 repair in the future.

 

[RV8iator]

I might add that if you have a FlightStream 510 in your 650/750 series radios, just xfer flight plan straight into radio from ForeFlight. It works both ways once loaded, i.e., change route in 650 sends it to FF and vice versa. Also, wife’s FF stays updated, or she can change flight plan whilst I aviate.

 

[avrojockey]

My RV7A is configured with 2x Skyview Classic displays, a GPS-175, and a panel mounted iPad mini. This question is for those with a similar configuration. I fully understand the benefit of a pure Garmin panel, so not interested in that debate.

Whats your technique? Do you fly using the GPS175 the entire time for navigating and forego the benefits of the Dynon FPL and associated menu? Do you fly Dynon GPS until you arrive in the terminal area then switch to GPS175 for arrival and approach? It seems that the easiest communication amongst the systems occurs when I fully use the GPS175 but I hate giving up the simplicity and features of the Skyview. Adding a Trig 56A this week so I think it’s only going to get a bit more complicated. Is there something I’m completely missing? One thing I know for certain is that you have to pay very close attention to the “source” on PFD and Map… ask me how I know that one.

TIA
Brian

This is what I do...I have full Garmin but it will work with your set up also. The GPS175 has Connext built in (just connect to your iPad with bluetooth) so I do all my flight planing and setup on the iPad or iPhone (Foreflight or Garmin Pilot work) , which is the easiest of all my planning tools. Then I send this flight plan via Connext to the GPS 175 during preflights. After this first sync, any changes made to the GPS 175, such as entering approach, will sync automatically with the iPad. In Foreflight it will prompt you with the first change to make sure it's ok to change the iPad plan but after that it syncs instantly.. If you enter in the iPad first, they don't sync automatically due to the planning verification protections built-in the GPS175.

Of course, once its in the GPS175, it automatically realized in the Dynon PFD

 

[Carl Froehlich]

I might add that if you have a FlightStream 510 in your 650/750 series radios, just xfer flight plan straight into radio from ForeFlight. It works both ways once loaded, i.e., change route in 650 sends it to FF and vice versa. Also, wife’s FF stays updated, or she can change flight plan whilst I aviate.

$1700 for a ~$20 product is just not going to happen for me. Shoot fire, for the ~ $12K GTN 650 this feature should be included. I assume some smart MBA guy figured out that not providing the feature translated to free money for Garmin. I’ll just continue to take the five minutes to fat finger in the flight plan and save the cash for fuel.

The first three builds all sport a GTN-650 - and it pains me that Garmin shamelessly squeezes it‘s customers. I’m now taking another look at Avidyne for the new RV-10 but they seem to be following the Garmin business model.

I’ve been hoping for a new GPS navigator for 20 years but nothing is on the horizon. When will Trig or Dynon jump into the TSO GPS navigator pool?

Carl

 

[Canadian_JOY]

I have a similar setup. Being an old-school FMS guy I'm quite happy to do all flight planning on the GNS480. Yeah, it's long-in-the-tooth but it's still a darned good box. While I could mess with tablets and the EFIS, I let the 480 drive the autopilot directly.

My next upgrade will be to swap the 480 for an IFD540. As others in this thread have mentioned, I do my best to avoid the extortionist business practices of Garmin.

 

[Dugaru]

I have a similar setup. Being an old-school FMS guy I'm quite happy to do all flight planning on the GNS480. Yeah, it's long-in-the-tooth but it's still a darned good box. While I could mess with tablets and the EFIS, I let the 480 drive the autopilot directly.

My next upgrade will be to swap the 480 for an IFD540. As others in this thread have mentioned, I do my best to avoid the extortionist business practices of Garmin.

Those 480s are indeed good boxes.

I'll probably go with Avidyne next time, in part because their IFD seems to be an easier swap-out install than any of Garmin's upgrade gear would be (!).

But from what I can tell, Avidyne also charges near-Garmin amounts for out-of-warranty repairs. Check out the bottom of this web page:

Product Registration & Warranty Information - Avidyne

STANDARD PRODUCT WARRANTY All products manufactured by Avidyne are warranted against defects in material and workmanship for a period of twenty-four (24) months from date of installation. If our Product […]

www.avidyne.com

It's not entirely clear that they'd charge the $2,576 just for a battery replacement, but it looks like they might!

 

[BobTurner]

I’ve been hoping for a new GPS navigator for 20 years but nothing is on the horizon. When will Trig or Dynon jump into the TSO GPS navigator pool?

Carl

The answer, if you also mean low cost, is never. The FAA TSO approval process costs millions of dollars in engineering cost. Garmin has long ago amortized these costs. If a low cost competitor should come forth, Garmin could easily undercut their price and still make a profit, while the newcomer could never pay down the TSO cost. Companies are in business to maximize their profit, not to be nice to pilots. So the only competition is at the high price end, where buyers shop for features and price doesn’t matter. IMHO the only hope is something like the relatively low cost gps ‘navigator’ offered by GRT, which uses the computing power of its EFIS and its $1500 self-certified, no TSO, adsb gps. GRT is way to small to undertake TSO certification costs, so this unit is vfr only. But if enough pilots used it (vfr) and acquired a mountain of data, pressure might be brought to bear on the faa to issue an alternate means of compliance (in my dreams) for ifr approach use.