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De-registering a plane. Then registering later.

Kahuna

Kahuna

Moderatoring
Got a buddy with an RV-4. Was flying and airworthy until he parked it to travel. It has sat pickled for ~4 years in a hangar. He travels the world and has no time for this thing now, but he wants to keep it for later in life, when and if he gets to it.

Where its kept, they are now requiring all registered planes to have liability insurance. That is tipping him over. He does not want to deal with that. So he asked about de-registering it, and re-registering it later. I could not find a thread on this. So, what is involved with this?

Thanks for your advice.
 
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Registration

Registration interval is about to be extended from 3 years to I believe 7 years. Under the 3 year rule a significant number of registrations were expiring and after a certain period the N number is lost.
One possible solution is to register it in another state. South Dakota seems to be a good choice.
 
He can afford to pay for a hangar for years upon years, but can't afford liability insurance as well?
 
Snowflake said:
He can afford to pay for a hangar for years upon years, but can't afford liability insurance as well?
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Not to mention the cost of keeping the airplane in an airworthy status. If it's really going to be long term, why not just pull the wings and tail feathers off and put it in storage and avoid the whole registration issue entirely?

What happens if he suddenly gets the urge to get the airplane in the air again? It would take several months, if not many, to get the registration back service.

However, I've found the FAA is fairly responsive to a letter. I would write them requisition to deregister, and then reserve, the N number. If you don't reserve it, someone else will likely do it and then what do you do about the N number on the airplane?

Seems like a lot of hassle to avoid a few hundred bucks a year.
 
Liability insurance is only 2-300 per year. I would think that getting another special AW cert would be a major hassle, especially if he didn't build it. Don't really know if de-registration voids the AW cert.
 
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Liability insurance, about 1/2 of his cell phone bill each month. Not worth trying to dodge it.... Unless this is his only bill that is left behind. Free hangar? no home to maintain, no cars etc.

He can be expected to prove (each year) that the plane is not registered, and may get kicked off the field if he fails to notice the letter that was sent to his house.
 
Here at LVK they took faa grant money, and the city’s interpretation is that hangars are for storing flyable airplanes, with exceptions for aircraft that are undergoing maintenance or are being built. For the latter, they require that reasonable progress is being made on a regular basis. e.g., no storage-only.
Perhaps your friend should make sure no such rules apply to him, before going down this route.
 
The only instances that I am aware of that involved D registering an aircraft also included surrendering the airworthiness certificate. That would not be a good path to take just to avoid buying liability insurance, because there would be huge challenges involved in getting it recertified. Unless he had been the original builder it would probably be impossible to recertify as an experimental amateur belt.
I agree with the sentiment that liability only insurance is quite an expensive compared to full hull coverage insurance, and would probably be the least painful path to solving the issue.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
The only instances that I am aware of that involved D registering an aircraft also included surrendering the airworthiness certificate.
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This is an excellent piece of information. I assumed that registration and AW cert were 2 different things, like a title and registration on a vehicle. That they are tied together and that deregistering also requires surrender of AW is critical and would create a problem that could be unrecoverable.

As for the other responses. He may or may not own the hangar. He may or may not already be paying for coverage of items in the hangar. He may or may not even be in country to deal with taking it apart. He may or may not have a friend who is giving him free space. There are a myriad of reasons why he is considering de-registering.
Simply, another cost requirement for something he is not flying, is for him, causing him pause to consider other options.
 
Thread drift

Kahuna said:
This is an excellent piece of information. I assumed that registration and AW cert were 2 different things, like a title and registration on a vehicle. .
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Here in CA a car title and registration are interlinked. You cannot surrender one without surrendering the other, although you can register a vehicle ‘not to be used on public roads’ for a smaller fee.
 
Id like to know where one can get that cheap liability insurance. I have not found lower than $2800/yr for a 2007 Arion ightning. Most carriers will not even quote at all.
 
KeithO said:
Id like to know where one can get that cheap liability insurance. I have not found lower than $2800/yr for a 2007 Arion ightning. Most carriers will not even quote at all.
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We're talking about liability insurance for an RV which has thousands in the fleet with decades of field history. Insuring a recent, small-fleet aircraft such as the Lightning is a totally different risk for an insurance carrier. But I'm surprised your liability premium is that high......must be some concerning losses in the Lightning fleet history.

Kahuna, I'm wondering if a good option for your friend is to sell the RV then purchase another one when or if he decides to resume aviation. But, he may need an aircraft to be able to keep a hangar.............
 
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Sam Buchanan said:
Kahuna, I'm wondering if a good option for your friend is to sell the RV then purchase another one when or if he decides to resume aviation. But, he may need an aircraft to be able to keep a hangar.............
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This RV has special value to him. He has had a pretty good deal keeping where it is. Pickle it, leave it. deal with it later. His fixed carry costs for leaving it have been quite low. Now, getting insurance requires another can of worms. Named pilot, currency, bi-annuals, etc. Just another set of issues for someone mostly not even in country, and not flying for years.
He considered selling it, and he may end up doing just that. But if he can find a way to just have it sit where it is at the carry costs he has had, that would be preferred.
 
I am not sure about the legalities, so take this for what it’s worth – virtually nothing. I bought a Cessna 140 a while back. Looking at its history, the registration had lapsed for almost a decade before the fellow I got it from got it flying again. The AW was not impacted at all. He simply re-registered and away he went.

I can’t imagine that all of the airplanes sitting on ramps have current registrations but that doesn’t seem to be a huge issue. Just let it lapse and renew it sometime down the road? I would check with the FAA, but even if you have to change the n-number, who cares?
 
Re-registering an aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate can get complicated....in some cases nigh impossible.
 
titanhank said:
I pay $550/yr for liability from avemco on a harmon rocket. I bet an rv4 would be similar.
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The liability portion of my insurance for my flying RV-6 is less than $200.
I do have hull insurance on top of the liability.

If the builders insurance angle doesn't work, then the OP probably knows someone who could be the named pilot, but never actually fly the airplane.
That named pilot would already be maintaining currency, bi-annuals, etc. for his other flying activities.
 
Mike,

Slightly different situation, with perhaps similar results...just another data point. I recently asked my buds at my former FSDO in Reno about de-registering and re-registering, since I had rebuilt well over 51% of my plane over the period I've owned it (and would love to earn a Repairman Cert for it). The MX IIC for the races that I work with a lot said it'd require turning in the data plate, AWC and Ops Lims, and starting over...full build documentation required, etc, etc. So it sounds similar to what earlier posters said about surrendering docs. Even though your friend just wants to do the admin stuff to get it off book for awhile, sounds risky. Not sure if a broker will write a NIM liability only policy, but it doesn't sound too far-fetched...worth the ask. The airport probably needs something that names them as additional insured, to cover loss in the hangar. Posting a bond might work too, but might be more expensive. It's a PITA to have to ensure a defueled and pickled aircraft. Grrrr

Cheers,
Bob
 
AW & Registration

AW & registration are separate and distinct. Letting the registration lapse does not invalidate the AW certificate. I am not a fan of the idea of letting the registration lapse, as even if deregistered, most airports will require a liability policy if hangered at the airport. A simple not-in-motion liability policy with no hull coverage should very inexpensive.
 
rvmills said:
The airport probably needs something that names them as additional insured, to cover loss in the hangar. Posting a bond might work too, but might be more expensive. It's a PITA to have to ensure a defueled and pickled aircraft. Grrrr

Cheers,
Bob
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Exactly. Great point, Bob. Some airports have tried to be listed on the aircraft policy as a "Named Insured" which practically no underwriter will do. That shows a lack of understanding on the airport's part. Wise airport managers understand if they want to be on the policy they will ask for what you refer to. They should be "Additionally Insured" rather than named insured.

David Paule also brought up an excellent point of "not in motion" liability. How could anybody insist on full liability for an aircraft out of annual and pickled in place?
 
Kahuna said:
This RV has special value to him. He has had a pretty good deal keeping where it is. Pickle it, leave it. deal with it later. His fixed carry costs for leaving it have been quite low. Now, getting insurance requires another can of worms. Named pilot, currency, bi-annuals, etc. Just another set of issues for someone mostly not even in country, and not flying for years.
He considered selling it, and he may end up doing just that. But if he can find a way to just have it sit where it is at the carry costs he has had, that would be preferred.
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You can get liability insurance (or full coverage) with only named pilot info....
Nothing (pilot or plane) has to be current.

But, all better be current before the aircraft moves under it's own power.
 
About 15 years ago or so, I purchased an RV kit, partially completed, that had already been registered. I wanted to register it differently later in the build so I called the FAA to deregister it.
They required a couple forms and a notarized letter with special wording. They actually dictated the letter to me over the phone.so, I filled out the forms got the letter done and sent it all in and the plane was deregistered.
I will say it did not have the AW yet.
Later, I registered the plane with no problems.
At any rate, I would recommend you just call the FAA registration branch and ask. I found them to be very helpful.
 
Kahuna said:
TNow, getting insurance requires another can of worms. Named pilot, currency, bi-annuals, etc. Just another set of issues for someone mostly not even in country, and not flying for years.
.
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I disagree. All of those things you mention are requirements for him to be covered while flying the plane. The ins co cannot come back and deny a claim for damage to the plane when it was sitting in the hanger with no pilot in the seat due to the pilot not meeting FAA requirements for pilotting. CI's are the same. You are not flying it, so no need for it to be airworthy. Lot's of planes have been out of annual for periods and this doesn't nullify the coverage.

A quick call with a broker will likely produce an affordable option to get liability for the airport owner, even if the policy owner is not current. I believe that liability claims paid to airport property owners are a small fraction of the liability claims. My quote for liability only on my 10 was 10% of the full hull insurance, so this is relatively low risk stuff for the ins companies. While pilot skills and aircraft complexity play a big part in the actuarial business, Ground not in motion is much more stable across the board, excluding wx issues like tornados and hurricanes.

I bet there is an insurer out there that will do liability only inexpensively with the stipulation that the coverage is ground not in motion only.
 
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David Paule said:
He could ask for liability insurance on a not-in-motion basis, perhaps.

Dave
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^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Much easier than the deregistration/registration process and covers the airplane in case something happens while in "storage".
 
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Kahuna said:
This RV has special value to him.
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Sounds like this may be another reason for having some kind of insurance coverage on it. Years of storage in a hangar can lead to an amazing amount of hangar rash, especially if the rest of the hangar remains actively in use.
 
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