Chapter 11 Plan Filed

[bobrv7taildragger]

Because that is how the bankruptcy process works; it’s not right and it’s not fair…

I have heard those same sentiments before and do you know how many people were made whole after the bankruptcy, by the now profitable company?

Zero

I’m curious, IF you finish the project, when you come back from boring holes in the sky, are you going to be thinking how lucky you are and how much fun and satisfaction you had, or are you going to be thinking about how much money you lost and how unfairly you were treated?

So if it’s not right and it’s not fair why can’t vans make it right when they are profitable? Because the courts say it’s ok….its legalised theft. I’ll finish the project and…..yes……Compared to those that have not been caught up in this crap I’ll always feel screwed by this company….simply finishing and owning the plane will not remove the feeling of being screwed over while everyone else says…hey…smile about it…..it’s fine….we haven’t lost anything but you should be happy you provided money to help them survive. There is no reason this arbitrary figure of 55% should exist…..they survive?…..they should pay back in full.

 

[airguy]

So there is only 18% of people that did not re sign yet they have to steal 45% of our hard earned money. This whole wonderment and joy of building my own aircraft has been soured and sullied to the point it will always have a dark cloud over it. Never will I be able to be as excited as I once was and when ever I see vans in the future “recovered” and prospering I’ll always think of what they owe me. It’s just legalised theft. I’ll be sure to protest in any way possible until they make it right. If they survive and prosper they should pay back creditors just like I’d have to do if I owed a business money. I don’t care it’s bankruptcy….if they survive …..taking our money is not right

It's certainly your choice to feel that way. But make no mistake about it - this is YOUR CHOICE. You are the only person on this planet that has the power to make you miserable about this experience for the rest of your life.

 

[rocketman1988]

It's certainly your choice to feel that way. But make no mistake about it - this is YOUR CHOICE. You are the only person on this planet that has the power to make you miserable about this experience for the rest of your life.

…and it looks like he’s well on his way. It will not only affect him but anyone he comes in contact with. Doesn’t make much sense to continue with a project that makes you miserable.

 

[BruceW]

All great comments but why if they survive can’t they pay out 100%? Why do we have to take a hit. If you guys are not worried about the coin feel free to give me some of your own money. No. Didn’t think so. As I said…this will always be a stain on what was supposed to be a once in a life time project. Let’s not marginalise the argument by constantly mentioning those with worse problems like I have never seen or been involved in…. This is about why we should have to take a loss when the company survives and ultimately prospers. How much is too much of a loss (again financially not medically) and please don’t comment when you don’t have a deposit taken.

So, . . . . first time thru bankruptcy?

 

[MIKE JG]

Bankruptcy is the lesser of two evils unfortunately, whether it's a personal bankruptcy or business that declares. Both are given a sort of "get out of jail free" card. There are literally thousands and thousands of Americans that have had to declare personal or medical bankruptcy because they or a loved one ended up getting cancer and our crappy health care system took every last dime. Should those people just be told "too bad, so sad"? Or should we help get them back on their feet again?

My point is the bankruptcy laws in the USA are written to help people and businesses get back on their feet again at the expense of the creditors. If you don't agree with that, start with your local state representative and go up the chain from there. I doubt you'll get very far. In the end, it is in the interest of everyone that individuals and companies do not go completely broke.

Should an individual or company pay its creditors back 100%? Of course they should but the law allows them not to and most individuals or companies will take full advantage of that.

Does it suck to lose a large chunk of change in this bankruptcy, absolutely and anyone affected has my sympathy. Ultimately in a free market economy (are we still even in that these days?) it's a risk we all assume when we chose to do business with a company or individual. Normally it turns out fine, but not always. This is one of those times unfortunately.

 

[JonJay]

Every person with any relationship with Vans, monetary or not, will make their own decision on how they feel. I have no right to argue it.
I will mention that business to business, it’s different. Bankruptcy “forgives” liabilities. Businesses may not.
When I had companies go bankrupt owing my business monies, often the new owners or reorganized company would call gladly to say “we’re back in business”. I would tell them, that’s great, are you going to pay me what you owe me? No! We don’t have those liabilities anymore. I would simply tell them, yes you do, and they would be put at the back of the line. We would still do business with them, but only as a last resort, and we did everything in our power to make up our losses with margin. Individuals are not in a position to do this. So, how they feel about a loss is strictly theirs to own.
It will be different for Vans vendors. Vans will be on different terms. Individuals don’t have a path to recuperate losses. Businesses do. We’ve seen that in the court docs already.
This should concern folks a lot more than how any individual feels.

Before the cheerleaders jump on this and start the “let’s be positive chants”, this is the reality. It will take a long time for individuals and vendors to regain confidence. It will impact how things move forward.

Keep swimming!

 

[rocketman1988]

"...I cannot trust an unscrupulous business practice at all..."

Unscrupulous - "having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair."

I'm guessing you would need to prove that they have no moral principles. You cannot use your feelings as evidence.

The honesty part, how far back do you go? Do you think that they intentionally harmed you, or was the harm due to the bankruptcy rules?

"Fair". That is an interesting topic. You see, "fair" ALWAYS comes at someone else's expense. That discussion could take a lifetime.

Point is, every time you bring this topic up in the future, it is going to make you even more bitter and angry; it is a self perpetuating problem, and you will never be able to let it go or enjoy the fruits of your labor...IF you finish it.

Sad, really but it's your life.

 

[9GT]

Moderators: Hasn't this thread and subject matter been discussed ad nauseam? Some of these comments about Van's Aircraft and its employees are slanderous at the very least. Give the company a break people. They are doing what is necessary, and legally bound to follow through the legal system to stay afloat and continue to provide wonderful products at affordable prices. Yeah,,,EVERYTHING cost more than it did pre-covid. Something we HAVE to accept, like it or not.

[ed. If a reply violates the posting rules, please let me know and I will delete it. People need a place to discuss the chapter 11. Having said that, some folks have kind of pushed it and need to loosen the bone a bit. When people join the site and spend nearly100% of their time and posts in the Ch 11 subforum - so where were you the last five years? Just joined to complain, didya? Gotcha.
dr]

 

[Bearman]

Moderators: Hasn't this thread and subject matter been discussed ad nauseam? Some of these comments about Van's Aircraft and its employees are slanderous at the very least. Give the company a break people. They are doing what is necessary, and legally bound to follow through the legal system to stay afloat and continue to provide wonderful products at affordable prices. Yeah,,,EVERYTHING cost more than it did pre-covid. Something we HAVE to accept, like it or not.

I'm still building on and have several other builds to complete but I am a forgive but don't forget kind of guy. It's hard to forget that Vans was still taking finial payments and deposits knowing they were not going to send a product and behind closed doors already knew they were going to file chapter 11. That's all I have to say........no hard feelings.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

Co

"...I cannot trust an unscrupulous business practice at all..."

Unscrupulous - "having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair."

I'm guessing you would need to prove that they have no moral principles. You cannot use your feelings as evidence.

The honesty part, how far back do you go? Do you think that they intentionally harmed you, or was the harm due to the bankruptcy rules?

"Fair". That is an interesting topic. You see, "fair" ALWAYS comes at someone else's expense. That discussion could take a lifetime.

Point is, every time you bring this topic up in the future, it is going to make you even more bitter and angry; it is a self perpetuating problem, and you will never be able to let it go or enjoy the fruits of your labor...IF you finish it.

Sad, really but it's your life.

correct on all points….my choice.

I'm still building on and have several other builds to complete but I am a forgive but don't forget kind of guy. It's hard to forget that Vans was still taking finial payments and deposits knowing they were not going to send a product and behind closed doors already knew they were going to file chapter 11. That's all I have to say........no hard feelings.

gosh that sounds unscrupulous

 

[Capt]

It’s a shame the company wasn't sold to a more business savvy person/persons. The product has been great till of late due poor decision making IE LCP & primer issue. The price would have gone up anyway but the product might have had a more trustworthy outfit running with a more profitable long term plan.
Still it is what it is. Hopefully buyers or potential buyers accept the risk of trust or lack of it and can find peace in this mess.
good luck to all

 

[JonJay]

It’s a shame the company wasn't sold to a more business savvy person/persons.

Everybody is good at something. Sometimes, it isn’t what they are doing.
They have a team of quality business people guiding them now.

Considering the very large amount of cash that was needed just to keep on their feet, I’m not sure there was anything that attractive for a buyer. The debt to asset ratio is, well, scary. (All public info in the “plan”.)
Hence, “the plan”, and making that math work must not be feasible if they try to make everyone whole. Perhaps they would have done it otherwise.
It wouldn’t make sense to have a plan that knowingly wouldn’t work. The plan as it is will be a challenge to meet.

We won’t know specifics, evidently, as the law doesn’t require a Disclosure in Vans case, at least not publicly. So, you trust Vans new business heads to know what they are doing.

These are just some facts and a few “thumb in the air” assumptions based on my business experience. If anything I said is perceived as an attack or cut against Vans or any of its people, that’s simply not true.

Keep swimming!

 

[philb]

Everybody is good at something. Sometimes, it isn’t what they are doing.
They have a team of quality business people guiding them now.

Considering the very large amount of cash that was needed just to keep on their feet, I’m not sure there was anything that attractive for a buyer. The debt to asset ratio is, well, scary. (All public info in the “plan”.)
Hence, “the plan”, and making that math work must not be feasible if they try to make everyone whole. Perhaps they would have done it otherwise.
It wouldn’t make sense to have a plan that knowingly wouldn’t work. The plan as it is will be a challenge to meet.

We won’t know specifics, evidently, as the law doesn’t require a Disclosure in Vans case, at least not publicly. So, you trust Vans new business heads to know what they are doing.

These are just some facts and a few “thumb in the air” assumptions based on my business experience. If anything I said is perceived as an attack or cut against Vans or any of its people, that’s simply not true.

Keep swimming!

So while none of the posts violate rules, sure seems like we’ve got a broken record playing on this sub forum. Point made. Making it again and again and again not particularly productive Probably good I’m not a mod cuz I would have shut it down due to lack of ongoing meaningful discussion.

Phil
KBTF- Sat Lake City
RV10 built/flying
Murphy Moose, building

 

[dstates]

Looks like the credit card companies have caught up to speed. There is a new claim for $238k for chargebacks.

 

[Jonnyb]

Looks like the credit card companies have caught up to speed. There is a new claim for $238k for chargebacks.

Isn’t it too late for claims? Thought the cutoff was February?

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

May I ask a sensible non inflammatory question without being shot down please.
I have two claims. one for a Finish kit and one for an engine. Do I get two amounts of $3350 priority claim or only one? (actually the finish kit deposit is only $2500 and the engine deposit was $9507.
Can anyone tell me is the priority $5600 for the two separate claims or just $3350. then 55 to 60% (last video) over the next three years of the balance. just trying to understand. Thankyou.

 

[APicard]

May I ask a sensible non inflammatory question without being shot down please.
I have two claims. one for a Finish kit and one for an engine. Do I get two amounts of $3350 priority claim or only one? (actually the finish kit deposit is only $2500 and the engine deposit was $9507.
Can anyone tell me is the priority $5600 for the two separate claims or just $3350. then 55 to 60% (last video) over the next three years of the balance. just trying to understand. Thankyou.

I'm assuming based on the fact that there 2 separate orders it would be 2 different priority claims. I could be wrong and would again recommend asking a lawyer that specializes in these cases. (maybe even an email to Van's team might be able to add clarity)

 

[Dan 57]

Question guys... many of us received the snail mail as pictured here.

In my case no claim ever filed, but instead signed the new contract for my engine order placed Feb 2022, and made the final payment for it. I've read the plan throughout, found it sound, and would sure approve of it.
Since I'm not a claimant as such, do I file and send the ballot in and is it then valid as such, or do I just pause and hold my breath for what I hope will be Van's recovery?

 

[stigaro]

Question guys... many of us received the snail mail as pictured here.

In my case no claim ever filed, but instead signed the new contract for my engine order placed Feb 2022, and made the final payment for it. I've read the plan throughout, found it sound, and would sure approve of it.
Since I'm not a claimant as such, do I file and send the ballot in and is it then valid as such, or do I just pause and hold my breath for what I hope will be Van's recovery?

In the first line, you have to attest that you have a claim. Would seem you do not have a claim, so you cannot vote.

 

[Dan 57]

Thanks, my initial thinking too stigaro
Which then makes me then wonder why they are wasting $7.93 on first class international mail, this for probably many folks out there...

 

[airguy]

Thanks, my initial thinking too stigaro
Which then makes me then wonder why they are wasting $7.93 on first class international mail, this for probably many folks out there...

Efficiency and common sense do not belong in the same room with the lawyers. The lawyers are in charge (for now) so this is what we get.

 

[mstrauss]

Efficiency and common sense do not belong in the same room with the lawyers. The lawyers are in charge (for now) so this is what we get.

I think it's more likely a garbage-in garbage-out situation.

 

[stigaro]

Thanks, my initial thinking too stigaro
Which then makes me then wonder why they are wasting $7.93 on first class international mail, this for probably many folks out there...

I received one too and wondered the same thing. Then I received a post-card size reminder a few days later. Unfortunately we are all paying for these letters using the new pricing model.

 

[mbell]

Question guys... many of us received the snail mail as pictured here.

In my case no claim ever filed, but instead signed the new contract for my engine order placed Feb 2022, and made the final payment for it. I've read the plan throughout, found it sound, and would sure approve of it.
Since I'm not a claimant as such, do I file and send the ballot in and is it then valid as such, or do I just pause and hold my breath for what I hope will be Van's recovery?

View attachment 61066

 

[mbell]

Question guys... many of us received the snail mail as pictured here.

In my case no claim ever filed, but instead signed the new contract for my engine order placed Feb 2022, and made the final payment for it. I've read the plan throughout, found it sound, and would sure approve of it.
Since I'm not a claimant as such, do I file and send the ballot in and is it then valid as such, or do I just pause and hold my breath for what I hope will be Van's recovery?

View attachment 61066

There's a list in that packet with hundreds of names. Assuming you are on the list I believe for the purposes of voting you have a claim. I wasn't sure they would take my "accept" vote without filling in all the boxes, so I just entered the amount of my deposit, signed it and sent it in. Definitely could have been more clearly worded. Some of the paperwork says the judge makes the final decision anyway, but I assume pays some attention to the vote.

 

[Dugaru]

Efficiency and common sense do not belong in the same room with the lawyers. The lawyers are in charge (for now) so this is what we get.

You might be surprised. Sometimes statutory notice procedures are sufficiently picky that they make the “most expensive” option turn out to be the cheapest. For example, I don’t think I’ve calculated witness mileage for a subpoena in ages; much cheaper to just pay the max amount.

 

[skyhakpilot]

All great comments but why if they survive can’t they pay out 100%? Why do we have to take a hit. If you guys are not worried about the coin feel free to give me some of your own money. No. Didn’t think so. As I said…this will always be a stain on what was supposed to be a once in a life time project. Let’s not marginalise the argument by constantly mentioning those with worse problems like I have never seen or been involved in…. This is about why we should have to take a loss when the company survives and ultimately prospers. How much is too much of a loss (again financially not medically) and please don’t comment when you don’t have a deposit taken.

I was an A&P in Aircraft Maintenance with UAL just over 40 yrs. I left in 2006 with a reduced pension now given to me by the government. And what did I see in the years that followed? Billions in New Aircraft orders. So when you speak of “taking a hit”,
Trust me, what you and everyone else is complaining about it nothing to what thousands of us experienced with Chap 11.
If this doesn’t work for you sell your kit and move on.

 

[bk1bennett]

Is anybody else stunned by how much the debt is for Van's Aircraft? It around 70% of annual revenue. That's a very large hole.

 

[BobTurner]

I’ve seen several posts suggesting that “Vans” will make out like a bandit, Vans is a corporation, owned by stockholders. It’s almost certain that these owners (many of whom are Vans employees) will lose everything. Not $.75 on the dollar, everything. And the ‘new Vans’ that emerges will find no people willing to buy their new stock if the corporation has a large amount of debt on its books. That’s just the way it is. There are only two choices here: Vans locks its doors, the debtors get something (chp 7); or chp 11, the owners get nothing, the debtors get something, a new company emerges.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

these owners (many of whom are Vans employees) will lose everything

If that happens, it's another example (in a long line) of why it's a bad idea to put all of your investments into the place that writes your paychecks.

 

[rocketman1988]

Is anybody else stunned by how much the debt is for Van's Aircraft? It around 70% of annual revenue. That's a very large hole.

Ever been through a bankruptcy?

 

[JonJay]

Going off of memory, but, the way I read the plan, the ESOP is dissolved, cashed out from Van. The loans from Van are converted to equity. He, or his trust, will be the only shareholder.
His Capitol is what drives the plan. It is key. His risk, his potential gain.

I know some are tired of hearing about all this as “nothing is new”, but folks should read the plan as there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. Considering all the “legal ease” in there, it’s certainly understandable.

I am standing ready to be corrected!

 

[bertschb]

Going off of memory, but, the way I read the plan, the ESOP is dissolved, cashed out from Van. The loans from Van are converted to equity. He, or his trust, will be the only shareholder.
His Capitol is what drives the plan. It is key. His risk, his potential gain.

That is the way I understood it as well.

 

[newt]

Is anybody else stunned by how much the debt is for Van's Aircraft? It around 70% of annual revenue. That's a very large hole.

When I took out a mortgage to buy my house, my debt was about 600% of my household annual revenue.

70% seems like nothing. If the company is profitable as a going concern, that magnitude of debt is very easily fnancialized.

- mark

 

[Latech15]

Isn’t the majority of the debt to Van?

 

[JonJay]

Isn’t the majority of the debt to

No. Vendors, payables, and cash deposits for orders that were not filled.
All in the plan.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

When I took out a mortgage to buy my house, my debt was about 600% of my household annual revenue.

70% seems like nothing. If the company is profitable as a going concern, that magnitude of debt is very easily fnancialized.

- mark

70% is a high leverage situation. If the business generates 10% net profits on sales and all of the profit is used to repay the debt, it'll take 7 years to recoup the investment. And there's always the risk that the business doesn't make it and Van takes a multi-million dollar loss. I think Van's will make it, but (again) 70% is a big number.

 

[Cholley6]

Clearly y’all are not in agriculture. The amount of debt we deal with on an annual basis to produce a crop for low margin would make yall sick. Especially considering we rely so heavily on favorable weather. The percentage of debt they are dealing with doesn’t seem disastrous as long as they change their ability to readjust as their costs do, which they have with their new terms.

 

[JonJay]

Things are really veering off.
From a business standpoint, there is no comparison between financing real estate, growing a commodity, and manufacturing kit aircraft.
I won’t argue the details as the thread has already gone off the rails, but I have done or been directly involved in all three.
Vans debt is significant. Hence, reorganization. This isn’t going to be a cake walk, or a normal cycle of business, as some seem to be suggesting.
It is very early in this whole process folks. Reason for optimism? Sure, but it’s a long road….

Let’s try to keep the discussions about Chapter 11 and assisting folks in their understanding of the process and how it impacts Vans and its customers. Us!

Keep swimming!

 

[[email protected]]

Well I for one am happier than a pig in mud on a warm summer day that Van's Aircraft is still in business.
Happy happy happy big smile.
They could have CLOSED THEIR DOORS, disappeared and left the industry in a world of hurt for parts etc.
Sometimes life has it's pains,
Four ten of my siblings no longer have to worry about these things. So I don't either. One of them was always negative for the last 40 years or so. Gone now. Problem and worries solved.
I'm to old to worry about the what if's. I'm just moving on as other people say.
You can always make more money, You can't make more TIME.
BUT my luck varies FIXIT

 

[FlyGuy65]

Well I for one am happier than a pig in mud on a warm summer day that Van's Aircraft is still in business.
Happy happy happy big smile.
They could have CLOSED THEIR DOORS, disappeared and left the industry in a world of hurt for parts etc.
Sometimes life has it's pains,
Four ten of my siblings no longer have to worry about these things. So I don't either. One of them was always negative for the last 40 years or so. Gone now. Problem and worries solved.
I'm to old to worry about the what if's. I'm just moving on as other people say.
You can always make more money, You can't make more TIME.
BUT my luck varies FIXIT

Same. Finishing kit arrived on schedule (albeit a little more expensive), backorder and missing parts (minor) also arrived, and Bill of Sale. I can't imagine the time and hassle sourcing those parts if Van's had gone under. Hope they are able to get through Ch. 11 quickly and remain profitable - and get the RV-15 back on track!