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Are RV's Designed to Fly in IMC

sglynn

sglynn

Well Known Member
I was at Van's today and told a guy I was installing enough avionics in my RV-7A to fly legal IFR in IMC. He said, "why? RV's aren't designed to fly in IMC." I said, "if my Cherokee can fly IMC my RV-7A should be able to." He said, "no!, and went on about IMC having ice, and that RV's are not as stable as a Cherokee, etc, etc.

So, of you guys who fly an RV in actual IMC, tell us about it? I'm talking about easy IMC like climbing through 3000 - 6000 foot thick stratus layer to get on top, or come back down. Or in summer through cumulus clouds. Is the RV stable enough to hand fly by attitude indicator and DG in IMC? Is the RV easy to hold altitude by reference to instruments only? Is an RV easy to recover from unusual attitude by instrument only in actual IMC? Do you think autopilot is manditory for IMC in an RV? Is electric trim a help or hinder? Are the systems you installed redundant enough for safe IMC?

Thanks for sharing your actual IMC experience in an RV with us.
 
It is more difficult than a Cherokee

I fly my RV-6A in IMC. I flew my Archer II to work every day for 15 years and never used the autopilot so I did not put one in my RV-6A. I retired and flew it that way in IMC for a year - no autopilot. It was a bear for me. Any amendment to clearance or non flying task like changing charts was done with great caution and excursions from heading and altitude were not uncommon during any distraction and cautions from ATC were also not uncommon. I have very basic /U equipment and the workload is high. I installed a Tru Trak Pictorial Pilot for directional control and an ALTRAC for altitude hold and it is a wonderfully different experience to fly in easy IMC as you describe. I personally believe that if you are instrument rated, building an RV for travel that can only fly in VMC is a mistake. Even if you do not want to fly in IMC or stay current having the capability can save you in an unanticipated situation. I also feel that an autopilot with altitude hold is essential for routine IMC operations. Years ago Van's had a pilot evaluate an RV for compatibility with IFR/IMC flight operations and he reported that he found it was compatible. This was reported in an issue of the company magazine "RVator." It is not easy to fly in IMC and it should not be surprising that the company discourages it.

Bob Axsom
 
If you accept the risk of flying SE IMC and the limited options you have in the event of engine failure, ability to climb quickly (compared to a jet), then the issue becomes one of pilot proficiency, equipment, autopilot, etc. Ice / snow is an induction problem in RVs and the ability to deal with it will vary from on installation to the next. Of course it would be an airframe issue as well if it were allowed to build. We have lost RVs with induction contamination issues. How much is ok? ZERO is ok. Some might not be ok. Very difficult to quantify this so the best answer is ZERO. (Remember in school the test instructions said select the best answer).

Of course you could build an IFR panel and file/fly IFR in VMC and take advantage of the ATC handling while it's still free.

Hard core IMC that goes all the way to the ground is not cool in a SE airplane. RV or otherwise. You get so used to practicing engine out drills in multi-engine airplanes, then one day recognize in a SE the drill (in IMC that goes to the ground) glide, crash, die.

There are ways of course to stack the deck in your favor but in the end it's a calculated risk I'm not willing to take.
 
The question was: Are RV's designed to fly in IMC?

All aircraft designs are by nature a compromise. Van has made what the market has determined to be an excellent compromise of flying qualities that appeal to many of us. By design, the RV series is not the absolute best at any one thing, and that may well be the genius of the design philosophy.

Pick any one "mission", and you can undoubtedly find another aircraft that does that mission better. But it is very difficult to find an aircraft that performs the variety of missions as well as the RV series, hence the success of the design.

So, was the RV "designed" for IMC flight? Not really. But is it capable of IMC flight? My answer would be "Certainly". And even more so if properly equipped. Flying an RV IMC solo without an autopilot reminds me of flying cross-country in an A-4 Skyhawk with no autopilot. (Been there, ... Done that!) There is no doubt that the RV's can fly IMC, they are flown IMC successfully all the time.

It is up to each operator to decide whether or not they want to fly IMC in their RV.

Speaking for myself only, I plan to properly equip my purchased RV-6A for IFR flight, and operate it in IMC conditions on occasion, but only after a thorough instrument refresher, as my IFR skills have deteriorated due to lack of practice.

Pete Hunt
ATP, CFII, A&P
 
asav8tor said:
If you ask the Van-the-man the answer is more definitive. It's no.
Click to expand...

Are you trying to say that RV's should not be flown in IMC? And also, "the other side of the coin," if RV's, as you assert, are not designed for IMC, the obvious question is: What ARE they designed for?

Seems to me that each builder or operator has the freedom to utilize the magnificent RV airframe in a manner that they choose. Maybe they would want to do aerobatics in the morning, formation in the afternoon, and IMC cross country at night!

Not very many aircraft can do that!!

Love my RV! :):D:cool:
 
PCHunt said:
Are you trying to say that RV's should not be flown in IMC? And also, "the other side of the coin," if RV's, as you assert, are not designed for IMC, the obvious question is: What ARE they designed for?

Seems to me that each builder or operator has the freedom to utilize the magnificent RV airframe in a manner that they choose. Maybe they would want to do aerobatics in the morning, formation in the afternoon, and IMC cross country at night!

Not very many aircraft can do that!!

Love my RV! :):D:cool:
Click to expand...

No argument with any of that.

I was responding to the original question that you had restated and pointing out the designed intent of the designer..... Van. His answer is very short....no.

The rest of us can do whatever we want. Think whatever we want. Operate the aircraft however we want. But none of that will change the answer to the question. ;)
 
RVator says no

One of the RVator magazines states that RV's are not built for IMC, that being there are a lot of RV's capable of flying in IMC and do it regularly.
 
Designed - done by the designer; Was it designed for IMC - no.

Built - done by the builder; Could it be built for IMC - yes.

Flown - done by the pilot; Could it be flow in IMC - yes.


Three different things. Three different questions. Three different answers.

I think this thread has now covered all adequately.:rolleyes:

Would I do it?

no.
 
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And as a follow-up...

Lears, Citations and Boeing 707's weren't designed for aerobatics but they've all been rolled....more than once..:)

Regards,
 
When I first started building, I joined EAA and started attending meeting thru Chapter 13, a very active group in SE Michigan. At the time, over 100 members had approx. 60 projects underway, including a number of RVs. What really struck me from that onset was that over 50% of these individuals were either no time or low time pilots - and most of the aircraft were what could be classified as high performance. Bob Axsom's post kind of sums things up. Can RVs be flown in IMC. Yes, but the short wing designs are, in most cases, more demanding. Just like in VMC, an RV can get you into trouble in a hurry and get you out just as quickly, if you know what you're doing. Did Van's design them as instrument platforms? Perhaps not, but he also didn't design them as serious XC machines either, and they can do both pretty well in the right hands. If you look at the RV9, he originally designed that as a challenge to C150 and other trainers. From my perspective, he ended up with a great XC machine and a very solid instrument platform - in large part due to the wing design. Now if I can only find a decent known ice system (just kidding).
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Flying IMC in any type aircraft

Need to be asking am I current, qualified, AND proficient in model/type, is the aircraft properly equipped, and are the forecast/actual environmental conditions along intended route of flight acceptable?
 
Another perspective - IFR vs. scud running

terrykohler said:
Did Van's design them as instrument platforms? Perhaps not, but he also didn't design them as serious XC machines either, and they can do both pretty well in the right hands.
Click to expand...

I do a fair amount of VFR XC flying in my RV-8, as do many others including Van's factory planes. If you do this regularly you will definitely encounter conditions that aren't exactly optimal VMC, at which point the choice's are 1. scud-running, or 2. motel. If you've got the time and commitment to exercise option 2, VFR XC is a great option.

However, there is always a certain amount of motivation to get to the destination even if the weather isn't ideal. Van actually wrote an RVator article entitled "Confessions of a Scud Runner" (12/92), which suggested ways to minimize the risks involved. The company later lost a plane and two great people due to scud-running through mountains in Arkansas.

I'd argue that VFR scud-running can be more dangerous than filing IFR, depending on circumstances. There are a lot of times when you could be comfortably cruising in smooth clear air above a layer, rather than bumping along in the haze and dodging TV towers beneath.

The SE vs. ME argument strikes me as a variant of the same old debate that played out in Flying Magazine for 30+ years between Collins and McClellan. My impression is the number of fatalities caused by engine failure in IMC is pretty small in relation to other causes.
 
I fly mine IFR

And fly better than I did in other aircraft.

Ice happens when you are flying IMC. In fact, my reading of the regs is that it is perfectly legal to fly Mooneys, C182s and RVs into light icing conditions.

The thing is, sometimes light icing, whcih is not even forcast anymore, can become unexpected moderate icing.

I am more cautious about ice with my RV. Mooneys and C182s have a proven history of being able to haul a load of ice. RVs? I don't know and I don't want to be the one who finds out that they can't handle it.

So, my IFR flying is much more limited in my RV than in my last airplane (M20J). It has nothing to do with handling qualities, only avoiding ice.
 
IMC in my RV7A

terrykohler said:
--snip
Now if I can only find a decent known ice system (just kidding).
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
Click to expand...
Terry,
What you (we all) need is an anti-ice system, known as staying well SOUTH of Michigan :rolleyes:

Flying IMC in RV's does require a higher level of proficiency - and in an RV - because of the control sensitivity. I'm an active CFII and fly IMC regularly in Cessna's, and still feel the need to practice in my RV. It is essential to be very organized in the cockpit. I personally consider an autopilot required equipment, but you still need to be able to do it without.
 
I'd like to hear the RV-10 pilots weigh in on this. While I equipped my -6A to be IFR legal, most of it was for convenience in VMC flight. But I'm hoping to expand my skills and flight envelope with the -10.
 
Isn't RDD working on integrating their Therm-X deicing system into the -10? They have done it for Lancair ES, Legacy, IV and PropJet Aircraft. Looks like there is demand for it. Even getting rid of small ice built ups in light icing conditions would be nice.

http://www.rddent.com/rd/
 
My RV9A is set up for IFR

but at this stage in my life, and required flight missions, it will just be for light IFR, light IFR approaches, or to get to known VFR conditions.
I have well over a 1000 hours of actual IFR logged, but now my IFR will be limited to the confidence and security that will allow me to plan and complete a cross county flight in known marginal VFR conditions.
My concerns about flying my overpowered RV9A in light potential temporary conditions (as being in clouds for a while while climbing, or landing) are the tank vents icing up. I will eliminate this by either heating the vents, or having an alternate cabin vent source.
I'm not sure how much ice the -9 will carry, and I have no interest in finding out.
I do recall many years ago I was in almost ideal conditions to find out how much my Mooney would carry.
For those of you in the North East, you might be familiar with V139 that by-passes New York by going out over the ocean from the tip of Long Island and goes to Sea Isle near Atlantic City.
One night I was returning home to Cape Cod, and I was on top of a 4000 foot thick layer at 13000 feet. I knew that I would pick up ice on the way down, but I also knew the temps were above freezing below 7000.
I asked New York Approach and was granted a pilot discretion descent down to 5000 feet while still over the ocean.
What I found out was at about a 400 foot per minute descent, I had full power on and was just able to maintain about 100 knots before I broke out and ice started to depart as forecast.
No, I will not do the same test with the -9!!!, but I learned a lot that night.
Jack
RV9A
87 hours
 
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All I can say is WOW.
"You get so used to practicing engine out drills in multi-engine airplanes, then one day recognize in a SE the drill (in IMC that goes to the ground) glide, crash, die."​
Being a little dramatic, aren't we? Thank you for making the case never to fly SE IMC in any aircraft. How about beyond gliding distance from shore, over mountains, or even outside the traffic pattern? Actually, being in the traffic pattern is too dangerous as the extended downwind will KILL you.:eek:

Van's has stated he designed the aircraft as a VFR sport aircraft. If that's the only answer the OP want's, then I believe we can all agree on it.

As a builder, and RV pilot who regularly flies IFR, I'll state that a properly equipped RV makes a fine IFR aircraft. Do you want to get down to 200 and a half? No. Can it do it? Yes. You really don't want to be there in any SE, single pilot aircraft. Equip an RV with a dual axis autopilot and proper redundancy in the avionics / flight instruments and you will have a capable, fast cross country machine.

There has been talk about ice. I agree, the RV has no business getting anywhere near ice. My long trips are for vacation. I take my vacations in the summer. Ice has never been an issue. The plane is "VFR" only in the winter.

Scott
RV-6A 1000+ hrs
 
IMC in a RV

I FLY MY RV-6 IMC WHEN NEEDING TO CLIMB OR DECEND. IMC IN A RV IS LIKE FLYING WITH YOUR HEAD IN A FROSTED FISH BOWL. IT CAN BE DISORIENTATING FOR A NOVICE. MINE IS EQUIPT WITH DUAL GRT'S, G530 AND A/P. IT WILL HANDLE TRACE ICE FOR A SHORT TIME.
 
I learned in mine

Make no mistake hand flying a 7 in IMC is a big handful!...A wing leveller really is mandatory and an altitude hold highly desirable.

Having said that I fly all of my practice approaches by hand and most of my real approaches using one or both of the autopilots..Certainly when writing down instructions from ATC the A/P's get to fly.

The RV7 equipped appropriately is a capable IFR machine, it even handles some ice but I alsways aim to keep out of it.

Frank
 
RV IMC

The real issue is pilot proficiency. Many different airplanes are flown for many different missions, and an IMC approach at the end of the day can be accommodated almost as an afterthought in some (see the post about the A-4). I fly an A-320 for my day job, and any 12 year old video gamer could fly it because the automation requires no pilot skills. Just don't program it wrong. On the other hand, I've flown commuter turboprops back in the day that make most RV panels look like something out of Star Trek. Hardcore IMC all day every day in marginal equipment with extremely basic gear and no autopilot. The difference: pilot proficiency. I wouldn't go shoot an approach in a Metroliner (or RV) now for anything. Train for it and do it regularly: no sweat. YMMV. Burt
 
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