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AN Fittings

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rongawer

Well Known Member
I want to pass on that I received excellent products at a low price with quick shipping from AN Fittings Direct http://www.anfittingsdirect.com

I had a couple questions and they were very responsive. The PTFE hose is very good quality and the fittings, while not the exact same finish as Aeroquip, are well made and fit well. I did my brake lines at the pedals and to the reservoir in -4 (I did all of my lines aft of the forward tunnel in hard line -4), FWF fuel lines in -6 and my oil lines to the cooler in -8. I also bought several different fittings from them and found them very satisfactory for the job.

I am very happy with these folks and recommend them.
 
The PTFE hose is very good quality and the fittings, while not the exact same finish as Aeroquip, are well made and fit well.

I hate to be a downer but:

a) This is automotive quality stuff and probably consists of cheap Chinese imports.
b) There's probably no recorded quality control or source chain documentation on the components.
c) The PTFE inner liner is probably not "conductive" as all aviation grade PTFE hoses are.
d) It is most unlikely that the assembled hoses have ever been tested to proof pressure as all aviation hoses are.

You can't tell anything about the quality of auto hoses just by looking at them. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the tip Ron. Agree you should check for the conductive liner of using for oil or fuel.

Did you pressure check these hoses to 3-400 psi and leave the pressure on there for 30 min? That is the best way to see if they are holding. Since there is no serration against the PTFE, (like all other products) heating to cowl temps with a hair dryer while pressurized would be in order.

I used some aeroquip hoses, but automotive racing type. I held them highly suspect and did research for the fittings. Each assembled hose was pressure tested with oil to 3-400 psi - one accidentally to 600 psi. I left the pressure on there for an hour to be sure. Keep in mind that the engine oil filter has a burst higher than 400 psi.

Don't want to be critical of your find, but just to be sure it is vetted, tested, and safe.

Brakes would be fine.
 
I hate to be a downer but:

a) This is automotive quality stuff and probably consists of cheap Chinese imports.
b) There's probably no recorded quality control or source chain documentation on the components.
c) The PTFE inner liner is probably not "conductive" as all aviation grade PTFE hoses are.
d) It is most unlikely that the assembled hoses have ever been tested to proof pressure as all aviation hoses are.

You can't tell anything about the quality of auto hoses just by looking at them. :rolleyes:

A: true, but so is a majority of hardware.
B: True, but I'm building experimental. If you're actually generating FAA-8130 docs for your airplane, more power to you - but I doubt most (if any) people do that.
C: Their PTFE is impregnated with carbon, which conducts and eliminates static buildup.
D: I pressure tested mine to 150psi for 1 hour with no leaks noted. Again, if you really need a 10,000 psi hose for your 45 psi fuel line (fuel injected), then have at it.

Considering that I've built my lines and tested them, I feel confident in them. If you choose to just say I'm wrong, well then we simply disagree.
 
Thanks for the tip Ron. Agree you should check for the conductive liner of using for oil or fuel.

Did you pressure check these hoses to 3-400 psi and leave the pressure on there for 30 min? That is the best way to see if they are holding. Since there is no serration against the PTFE, (like all other products) heating to cowl temps with a hair dryer while pressurized would be in order.

I used some aeroquip hoses, but automotive racing type. I held them highly suspect and did research for the fittings. Each assembled hose was pressure tested with oil to 3-400 psi - one accidentally to 600 psi. I left the pressure on there for an hour to be sure. Keep in mind that the engine oil filter has a burst higher than 400 psi.

Don't want to be critical of your find, but just to be sure it is vetted, tested, and safe.

Brakes would be fine.

I appreciate the advice. I answered your comments about conduction and testing earlier, but I'll add that you only need conductive lines for fuel, not oil; engine oil won't won't flash on static charge.

As a engineer who builds and operates power plants for a livings, I will tell you the ASME standard is 150% of system rated pressure for hydrostatic pressure testing. Going to 10 times the rated system pressure is a little pointless to me. Build your system to meet the need. For pressure testing small lines like these, I simply submerge the pressurized line into water and do a bubble check. If it will hold 3x system pressure for an hour, it will hold system pressure just fine. Going above that is unnecessary, but I won't discourage folks that feel they need that type of security.

What's really hilarious to me is that I'm pointing out an inexpensive supplier of braided steel hoses and I'm told to avoid automotive hoses. This coming on a forum where the majority supplier (Van's) provides plastic hoses for brake lines with brass compression fittings that you can get at Ace hardware = and they do the job just fine.

Keep in mind, that if you build your airplane with everything redundant, you'll have two airplanes... in the end, it's your money, have it, however I'm hoping someone reads this and finds it useful.
 
I did my entire EFII fuel system with this stuff, 800 PSI, 304 SS, 500 deg rating triple grip fittings, outer coating, carbon impregnated PTFE hose. There was a learning curve and took a long time to build the 12 lines, but they all pressure checked out and no leaks. I like the swoop no sharp corner 90 deg fittings. I will keep a sharp eye on all these lines, but I like how it turned out. http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/stainless-steel-lines/stainless-steel-brake-lines-p-1240.html
 
I did my entire EFII fuel system with this stuff, 800 PSI, 304 SS, 500 deg rating triple grip fittings, outer coating, carbon impregnated PTFE hose. There was a learning curve and took a long time to build the 12 lines, but they all pressure checked out and no leaks. I like the swoop no sharp corner 90 deg fittings. I will keep a sharp eye on all these lines, but I like how it turned out. http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/stainless-steel-lines/stainless-steel-brake-lines-p-1240.html

I'm with you; there was a little learning curve to get the first one done, but after that it went pretty smooth. I just finished my fuel, oil and brake lines and they are solid construction, tested well and they look good too.

Just because it wasn't expensive and didn't come with an FAA certification tag doesn't mean it doesn't work well. Anyone who thinks their experimental airplane is being built to the same standard as a part 23 aircraft is really missing the point of "Amateur Build". As the saying goes, "caveat emptor".

I used uncoated braided lines to save a little weight, http://https://www.anfittingsdirect.com/stainless-steel-lines/stainless-steel-brake-lines-p-1200.html, but the TPU coated ones look good too.
 
$20 bucks says those are cheap knockoffs that do not meet the AN standard.

Same folks also sell "ninja swords": http://www.wildweapons.com/

So what's your point? I'm not aware of anyone trying to sell you name brand parts with fake labels.

You obviously don't approve - so don't buy them. But just because you don't like them doesn't mean it won't help someone out with a good source for inexpensive parts.
 
So what's your point?

They are "inexpensive parts" that look a lot like real AN hardware, but are not...a detail overlooked when recommending them. If spotted in a pre-buy, I'd point them out, just as I would hardware store bolts.
 
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Anyone who thinks their experimental airplane is being built to the same standard as a part 23 aircraft is really missing the point of "Amateur Build".

If you think "amateur" in the above statement means "less quality", your wrong as far as I am concerned. I don't think you can/should make such a broad statement. I expect my "amateur" built airplane to be built as well (quality) if not better than certified. Check the meaning of term certified. I built mine the best I could with the best parts and practices I could. I'm an amateur at heart. Look up the definition if you need to.

I like to save money as much as the next guy but if I end up with two airplanes worth of airplane so be it. I'm only doing this once. :)

Be careful out there. Physics doesn't care and flying is not natural for us mere mortals, yet deadly.

Cheers.

Bevan

PS I didn't install the plastic brake lines and associated fittings as supplied in the kit. The Van's line of aircraft are well designed and proven. But just because the kit includes a certain standard of hardware chosen for unknown reasons/priorities (cost, weight, serviceability, ease of availability etc), doesn't mean I should blindly install it. The design goals may not align with my operational goals.
 
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There is a difference between "amateur" built and "experimental". It is my understanding there are several classes of "experimental" aviation in the US. Exhibition, ex-military, One-off designs (true experimental), plans-built/made from scratch, kits etc. I often feel the kit industry as we know it today really should be considered "amateur-built" as true experimenting is largely bypassed in this course.

Bevan
 
If the debate is over, I would like to drift on to a related topic. Could people share a description and hopefully photos of their set up for pressure testing their home made hoses? I made mine to save a dime and they have worked fine, but I confess that I never pressure tested them before installing.
Thanks

Erich
 
Pressure testing

of hoses in my shop has always been a worry. I note, with interest, that the site the OP provided shows hardware to test hoses built from their material. Basically it amounts to an AN cap, another AN fitting for the other end that includes provisions for a schrader valve. Easy to obtain from our normal sources, and so simple I wonder why I never thought of it.

I am in the process of getting these fittings together. I propose to use my strut pump to (carefully) pressurize the new hoses I build to reasonable test pressure. Water immersion is called for, as well as seeing if the hose holds constant pressure over a period of time.

I would recommend the use of high pressure schrader valves and robust fittings if the strut pump is used. I have good quality gauges that I can tee into this scheme to ensure that pressure levels are known and monitored.

I agree with the commenters concerning the use of aerospace quality materials in building hoses for our steeds. This is one place that quality will lend a great deal of comfort. along with the safety. I would not hesitate to use the material the OP suggested on a hot rod, but not my airplane. YMMV
 
Minor thread drift to answer the question-

on pressure testing of hoses. We have 2 different versions. Steve has a really nice one in his shop thats pretty automated. Mine, well when I built it I was doing some mobile stuff and needed a manual unit. Mine is pretty simple. A parts washer cabinet from Northern Tool, a 10,000 psi hand hydraulic pump to pressurize the hose, connecting tubes and hose to a branch manifold with 3 ports for the most common sizes, and various adapters and plugs to connect and seal off the hoses. NOT PRETTY, but very effective. Pressure gauge to 5000 psi. We normally test to 3000---because thats the rated working pressure of the hose we use (even though some applications like oil cooler hoses the running pressures might be 90 psi). So yep it way overkill. We've run some test hoses to 9,900 psi for 5 minutes, the reason for the cabinet. ( ever seen a hose end blow off at 9,000 psi----sometimes its fun:eek: just to hear the bang.

Anyway, you can take your air compressor, and make a couple of adapters and do a leak check by submerging the ends in a water bucket. Yeah, 100 psi isnt much, but it will check the fitting to hose integration especially for those of you that use reusable hose ends with neoprene lined hose.
BTW---you DONT have to have adapter fittings made from unobtainum to test stuff. Mine are industrial hydraulic fittings that are off the shelf items available anywhere. Remember, when I built my tester, it had to be mobile, and I was on a budget and didnt have $6000 to put into one. Its served us well (on the second pump now!) but we fully intend on upgrading to a new version that is automated, and may have a printer thingy to show the test data. But is upward of $25,000 right now.

Long story short, there are several inexpensive ways to test hoses. MOST of the time, if you use good components and they are not mismatched, and assemble them to what the manufacturer procedures are, then 999 out of 1000 you'll be good. With hose ends now being made on CNC equipment, and good quality hose having multiple inspections for conformity, most everything is very predicable and repeatable.

Tom
 
Ah yes, pressure testing fittings are here:
http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/an-...-kit/?osCsid=e24874cfa3ffd806a7afc887512f46a6

Inexpensive too. Of course, no guarantee they are legitimate AN pressure testing fittings :)
Erich

Ha, you made my morning Erich - thanks.

I'll have to be sure I use a certified Mk1 eyeball to verify my pressure gauge is actually reading legitimate pressure as well, on my inexpensive test kit...

On a serious note, I found that the "cap and Schrader valve" test kit is good. I connected my garage air hose to it, pressed up my lines to 150#, put them in a bucket for a bubble check, let them sit for an hour and checked again.

I considered using my 1800# nitrogen bottle and my Baron's 10:1 strut pump to really pump the sucker up, but then I realized I didn't have certified nitrogen.
 
Not the area to be penny pinching.

The appropriate hydrostatic test proof pressure for aviation grade -4, -6, and -8 PTFE aircraft hose reinforced with corrosion resistant steel wire braid (MIL-DTL-27267) is 3000 psi. The fact that you may only have fuel pressure of 30 psi is irrelevant. When you test to 3000 psi you are ensuring that (amongst other things) the end fittings are of high quality and are properly installed so that they will not back out after say 200 hours of high frequency flexing.

Testing with air pressure to 150 psi is virtually meaningless. Even a really botched hose assembly with junk components will most probably pass an initial 150 psi pressure test....but the same hose may fail suddenly and catastrophically when an end fitting backs out down the track due to flex loads.

Incidentally, no-one doing professional hose pressure testing uses air pressure. Hoses are always hydrostatically tested. Pressure testing with air is seriously dangerous and a good way to end up with missiles flying around the workshop.

Amateur built aircraft have a very bad accident rate compared to certified aircraft conducting similar operations. In particular, amateur-built aircraft are almost 3 times as likely to have mechanical events leading to an accident...and a significant percentage of those mechanical events result from fuel system problems. The trouble is that in many cases amateur builders think that the word "Experimental" is synonymous with using el-cheapo products from dubious sources in very critical applications.

Personally I would not entertain the idea of using non TSOd hoses FWF. It's just not the area where you want to be penny pinching. ;)
 
Tom asked me to post an image of the pressure tester that we are using in our shop.

Pressure tester.jpg

It is an industrial quality unit that is being utilized in a lot of military applications. The tester allows us to test from a range of 0-approx 6,500 psi. In addition, the seals allow us to test utilizing water from a built in reservoir. This is a very safe fluid for testing and requires no hose flush out afterwards.

Here is also a link to some videos of product pressure testing. If you go to http://aircraftspecialty.com/howwemake.html and click on "Conductive Teflon Hoses". Go to video #3 and the 2:20 mark is approximately where the pressure testing is displayed. There are also some other videos of hose and rigid tube fabrication that shows some of the other items that TS Flightlines and Aircraft Specialty are working on.

Happy building,
Steve
 
If the debate is over, I would like to drift on to a related topic. Could people share a description and hopefully photos of their set up for pressure testing their home made hoses? I made mine to save a dime and they have worked fine, but I confess that I never pressure tested them before installing.
Thanks

Erich

My test equipment is a lot like Toms, using a hydraulic hand pump from by hydraulic press. Surplus hydraulic gages. A porta-power pump from HF will do too. I fill the hose without first to avoid all the pumping. I hook it all up turn the hime up and fill then add the plug. I use hydraulic JIC fittings from Oreillys, they are really cheap, local and strong. I bought one, looked up the company catalogue made a list, then got all that I needed, caps and plugs for the ends too. As an alternate, I have not done this, but read of issuing a grease gun to pressurize a hose after it was already filled with oil. If that works, then it would officially be the lowest cost. Just be careful releasing the pressure.

I use mineral spirits and foam earplugs blown through the hose to clean them. About 3-4 passes gets them clean.

Putting a hose on the oil system of an airplane with only 150 psi capability is asking for trouble. Material creep aggravated by thermal softening, cold starts, and dynamic pressures mean the static specs must be much higher.

Personally I would not entertain the idea of using non TSOd hoses FWF. It's just not the area where you want to be penny pinching. ;)
Especially if it is just lunch money.

Full disclosure - I have made two hoses for half Raven and accumulator. One is pressure one is not. I did use aeroquip or earl's fittings, and aeroquip hose, racing spec, all. Initial pressure testing is ok at 300/500 psi, but will be retested annually for flexibility and pressure again just to be sure. The hose is low cost enough to just replace more often. If I like the system, higher spec hoses can be added using these as prototype samples. One has a 45 deg/straight end, another a 30 deg/90 deg and clocking critical. Length tolerance is tight to ensure it fits. Jury is out on the useful life of these for a continuous application like aircraft, but will be tested in the experimental spirit.

Experimental does not mean put it on the plane without worry and just fly and hope it doesn't fail. It means test it, monitor it, and still be safe. Hope is not a plan.
 
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What's really hilarious to me is that I'm pointing out an inexpensive supplier of braided steel hoses and I'm told to avoid automotive hoses. This coming on a forum where the majority supplier (Van's) provides plastic hoses for brake lines with brass compression fittings that you can get at Ace hardware = and they do the job just fine.
.

Well I would dispute that the fittings that Vans supplies with their plastic brake hoses "do the job just fine". Mine leaked consistently and I had to replace them all with better quality components. Everyone knows that Vans are notorious for being excessively frugal (and that's being overly generous to them) with much of their componentry. And yet even stingy Vans supplies only TSOd hoses FWF. I suspect that speaks volumes about the importance they place on the integrity of FWF fuel and oil hoses.
 
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Two sides to every coin.

Well I would dispute that the fittings that Vans supplies with their plastic brake hoses "do the job just fine". Mine leaked consistently and I had to replace them all with better quality components. Everyone knows that Vans are notorious for being excessively frugal (and that's being overly generous to them) with much of their componentry. And yet even stingy Vans supplies only TSOd hoses FWF. I suspect that speaks volumes about the importance they place on the integrity of FWF fuel and oil hoses.

My original plastic brake lines are still working great after almost 24 years, and I know of many others.
 
You guys crack me up

Ok, so my lineage is that I'm a nuclear engineer and was an inspector with NRC for a while and I'm pretty savvy on not only pressure vessel, piping and hose testing, but also their design and installation, however that was over 3 decades ago, so maybe I'm somehow missing something.

In reality, ASTM 380 Hose testing, which is recognized by ANSI and ISO as a valid test method, is a lot more involved than just "it held X pressure for X time", but this really has no bearing on my airplane. There is a pious element here that dictates their view and presumes that if you're not doing it their way, then it's wrong. I disagree. My car has rubber hoses with clamps that hold my radiator coolant very well and I guarantee that they do not hold 3000 psi. But they do a fine job for system that sees maybe 50 psi. Incidentally, LSA aircraft are constructed against the ASTM standard, and additionally FAR 23 is moving to a consensus standard as well. While MILSPEC's are great standards, their application is where common sense comes in. Not every application requires the same standard - which is why there are many, many standards.

For someone to say that a hose tested to hold 150 psi won't work for an system running at 60 psi is simply lacking in validation. The proof is that they are working just fine and have been. My old Zenair was built over 10 years ago with plastic brake lines - untested - and they are working very well with no leaks. In spite of the high quality of manufactured and tested 3000 psi hoses - they truly are not required for this application.

You can state that you're worried about failure and that's why your overbuilding your airplane - and that's fine. But the spreading of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) does nothing to improve the safety of the aircraft.

Parker plastic hose with a 500# pressure rating works well for the designed application of brakes on light airframes, such as are all Van's aircraft, and so do the teflon lines from AN fittings direct. I can say with many years of root cause analysis examples, that the vast majority cause of failures is human error. And improper assembly and installation is the normal cause of hose failure, not material.

This whole silliness is much like the pulled rivet vs AN standard solid rivet debate. In the face of actual tested values and parts that work, stating that these "non certified" parts won't meet "safety concerns" is counterproductive and detracts from your credibility.
 
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For someone to say that a hose tested to hold 150 psi won't work for an system running at 60 psi is simply lacking in validation.

Pretty narrow response to the point. The reference was for lube system specification. Having some experience ( decades) in engine design, test/development, it not commonly known that lube systems are not typically covered by a general standard. Each engine manufacturer has their own validation test. SAE/ISO standards covers some components.

One lube system test is a cold start with elevated rpm. With cold oil the pressures can exceed 400 psi, so the components have to be equally capable. People don't normally incur such conditions, but they exist and the components are designed accordingly. 60 psi in a warm/hot lube system is at the pressure transducer, and will be higher upstream. When cold start conditions are encountered 150 psi burst strength hose is NOT adequate. Period.

For reference one can look up (purchase) the SAE/ISO test procedure for automotive oil filter dynamic and static pressure testing. That will give some idea to the working environment and testing that is necessary for a highly reliable part.
 
Bob---I was simply making the point of a DIY tester for guys that make up their own hoses. 100 psi is better than nothing.

Tom
 
Pretty narrow response to the point. The reference was for lube system specification. Having some experience ( decades) in engine design, test/development, it not commonly known that lube systems are not typically covered by a general standard. Each engine manufacturer has their own validation test. SAE/ISO standards covers some components.

One lube system test is a cold start with elevated rpm. With cold oil the pressures can exceed 400 psi, so the components have to be equally capable. People don't normally incur such conditions, but they exist and the components are designed accordingly. 60 psi in a warm/hot lube system is at the pressure transducer, and will be higher upstream. When cold start conditions are encountered 150 psi burst strength hose is NOT adequate. Period.

For reference one can look up (purchase) the SAE/ISO test procedure for automotive oil filter dynamic and static pressure testing. That will give some idea to the working environment and testing that is necessary for a highly reliable part.

I agree; thank you for supporting my point that the component should meet the application.

Testing to a pressure greater than 150% of the maximum rated system pressure, while really cool and gives you additional assurance, exceeds good engineering practices.

Which brings me back to my original post, the vendor sells hoses that they rate to 1500 psi, making them applicable to every system on my RV-12. However, I would not test them to their burst pressure, unless I was just looking to validate their design. Testing to the burst pressure of a hose (or really any system) causes deformation and is referred to as destructive testing, which is done to validate system designs in everything from pipes to electric motors (yup, run that 12VDC alternator up until you get insulation break-over). I would test to 150% of my maximum system pressure and install it.

On a separate subject and to your comment about 400# oil pressure, oil systems in most applications have a positive displacement pump, which should be equipped with a relief that is designed to accommodate full flow of the system, plus some percentage of margin. On my Continentals, the oil system is rated at 100psi. The oil relief starts to open above 90 psi and should be fully open by 100psi. As it is a hydraulic system in nature, the system pressure cannot exceed the relief. Having said that, I question a normal combustion engine having an oil pressure of 400# (by the way, 100 psi will cut babbit in your bearings, so I recommend inspecting them if you're really going that high), however, assuming your system is rated at 400#, I would test my hoses to 800 psi. For an oil system rated at 100 psi, I would test it to 200 psi for a design margin of 2.0. If your system leaks above that pressure, it is most likely an assembly and/or installation error that should be corrected.
 
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I agree; thank you for supporting my point that the component should meet the application.

Testing to a pressure greater than 150% of the maximum rated system pressure, while really cool and gives you additional assurance, exceeds good engineering practices.

Which brings me back to my original post, the vendor sells hoses that they rate to 1500 psi, making them applicable to every system on my RV-12. However, I would not test them to their burst pressure, unless I was just looking to validate their design. Testing to the burst pressure of a hose (or really any system) causes deformation and is referred to as destructive testing, which is done to validate system designs in everything from pipes to electric motors (yup, run that 12VDC alternator up until you get insulation break-over). I would test to 150% of my maximum system pressure and install it.

On a separate subject and to your comment about 400# oil pressure, oil systems in most applications have a positive displacement pump, which should be equipped with a relief that is designed to accommodate full flow of the system, plus some percentage of margin. On my Continentals, the oil system is rated at 100psi. The oil relief starts to open above 90 psi and should be fully open by 100psi. As it is a hydraulic system in nature, the system pressure cannot exceed the relief. Having said that, I question a normal combustion engine having an oil pressure of 400# (by the way, 100 psi will cut babbit in your bearings, so I recommend inspecting them if you're really going that high), however, assuming your system is rated at 400#, I would test my hoses to 800 psi. For an oil system rated at 100 psi, I would test it to 200 psi for a design margin of 2.0. If your system leaks above that pressure, it is most likely an assembly and/or installation error that should be corrected.

Yes we agree on the first part, on the lube system and hydraulics assumptions for a lube system you are just flat wrong.

200 PSI is not an unreasonable pressure to reach. The higher the pressure the less likely that conditions will conspire and occur. So, yes, 400 psi test is pretty good. Preheating using lower thinner oil for winters, and making sure the oil is 100F before hitting rated (TO) engine speed and all will be happy. Granted, 400 psi is rarely (maybe very rarely) hit but is a real world number from a design, validation, and OEM perspective and can not be ignored from a burst standpoint (i.e.800 psi).

We can get a beer, a white board and it will become clear. You seem like a smart guy, with the right knowledge you would agree with the reality.
 
I just wanted to weigh in on this thread briefly regarding hoses/pressure testing.

It is absolutely correct that you would not want to test a hose near it's burst pressure. We have taken our hose assemblies up to 9,000 psi for destructive testing..... Unfortunately we were still not able to get them to fail. However, the working rated pressure of the hoses that we supply varies (based on diameter) and they are tested at an appropriate proofing pressure, which is somewhat higher than that. Testing a hose to 3,000 psi is not at all damaging or destructive to the conductive Teflon assemblies we supply. As a matter of fact, they are designed to withstand nearly three times that without failure.

Secondly.... Van's does NOT supply TSO'd hoses for all firewall forward components. Some of the hoses are certified and some are not. That is the beauty of experimental aviation and one of the reasons that we build. A great example is that of Aeroquip 303 hose. It is an adequate hose and it is certified. However, it is heavy, very bulky and has a finite service life. It is certified, but is nowhere near the quality, weight, durability or useful life of the Non certified conductive Teflon hose assemblies that we build.

Finally.... a thought regarding pressure testing with air versus fluid. Think of what would happen if an end blew off of an air hose. You would have a violently whipping piece of rubber flapping around. The same would hold true while testing hoses. The reason that we test with fluid that is non compressible is for safety reasons. There is a lot less kinetic energy stored in fluid because it doesn't compress like air does. If you were to blow an end off of a fitting, you would get a squirt of water and a MUCH less violent result. It's just something to mention, because if you rig up something at home to test hoses...it is important to make sure that you protect yourself if the hose assembly fails. Even utilizing the non compressible fluid for testing, we still test in an enclosed cell that contains the hose assemblies. To date we have not had a failure...but I should try to crimp an end on halfway and see if I can get it to blow apart. It might make for a fun video one day.
Steve
 
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Yes we agree on the first part, on the lube system and hydraulics assumptions for a lube system you are just flat wrong.

200 PSI is not an unreasonable pressure to reach. The higher the pressure the less likely that conditions will conspire and occur. So, yes, 400 psi test is pretty good. Preheating using lower thinner oil for winters, and making sure the oil is 100F before hitting rated (TO) engine speed and all will be happy. Granted, 400 psi is rarely (maybe very rarely) hit but is a real world number from a design, validation, and OEM perspective and can not be ignored from a burst standpoint (i.e.800 psi).

We can get a beer, a white board and it will become clear. You seem like a smart guy, with the right knowledge you would agree with the reality.

Bill, I'd be happy to join you for a beer. And rather than debate who's right or not, I'm including an standard aircraft oil drawing, Continental IO-520, for everyone's reference.
CrG9vNI.png


Please note the relief just down stream of the pump. Assuming the relief is working properly, please explain to me how pressure further downstream of the relief goes higher than the pressure at the relief?

I absolutely agree that colder oil with it's higher viscosity will (assuming straight weight), will have a much higher pressure, and at the pump outlet - it would literally be a test of the pump gear shaft as to how high it would go without a relief, but system pressure cannot go above relief set point.

If somehow your relief was downstream in the system (I'm not aware of any such designs), then you would be correct.
 
Rolled vs. cut threads

Burst / leak / pressure testing is certainly important. Another concern (at least to me) that has not been discussed in this thread is that the spec for true AN fittings calls for rolled threads. Some of the imported fittings have been found to have cut threads which are much less resistant to vibration cracking. There are some great reads on this subject in the archives:

https://www.google.com/#q=site:vansairforce.com+AN+fitting+thread+rolled

I'm not trying to throw water on anyone's party. I fabricated some of my own hoses. I learned a lot in the process. I prefer not to have cut threads on my fuel and oil hose fittings. I would not feel safe knowingly flying an airplane that was equipped in that manner.

At one time ACS was found to have been selling cut thread fittings. I believe that has since been rectified.

Do your research, make up your own mind. In flight fires are not something to take lightly.

My humble 2 cents

Joe
 
What makes you think those are real AN fittings?

How do we know if any of our fittings are real?

I have never requested a certificate of conformity when ordering AN fittings from Aircraft Spruce, and I have no idea if any of my fittings are "real" or not.
 
How do we know if any of our fittings are real?

I have never requested a certificate of conformity when ordering AN fittings from Aircraft Spruce, and I have no idea if any of my fittings are "real" or not.

I'm assuming your question is not theoretical, so the answer is simply one of material content and dimensions. Aside from doing a material test, including hardness and purity - making the assumption that the material the vendor said is being sold is, then it comes down to a visual inspection and fit test. If you're really concerned, you could do a blue check on the seat faces for conformity, but let's be honest, if the fittings thread on well and hold your pressure, then they're fine.

If you really need actual Air Force - Navy standard (AN) hardware, then ACS will provide a cert, as will Skygeek and pretty much every other aircraft vendor. However, as the builder of your aircraft, you can choose whatever method you want. I recommend a good visual and fit check with a reasonable pressure test once completed.
 
Bill, I'd be happy to join you for a beer. And rather than debate who's right or not, I'm including an standard aircraft oil drawing, Continental IO-520, for everyone's reference.

Oh there is not question to who is right, I am.:D It just explaining this so people understand why.

Here is a Lycoming schematic for reference also. Thanks Bubblehead
723839926_Fu4cW-M.jpg


OK, so we know oil is much more viscous when cold, The oil pump is positive displacement. The pressure vs back pressure curve of the post relief part of the system gets very steep with low temperature. So much that many relief valves lack sufficient bypass volume to handle the flow and it will become a restriction to flow in addition to the restriction from the oil cooler to the relief. Most pressure relief valves are located on the main oil gallery to maintain pressure to the bearings more evenly during all phases of operation. Good for bearings and reduces field complaints of why the pressure is higher now after a filter change. Just standard heavy duty design practice. It might appear that Conti has a relief built into the pump. Not a good practice, but also hard to tell on that schematic. The restrictions are passages, oil cooler/vernatherm, oil filter then passages to the relief valve, plus the limitations of that valve itself.

Aircraft engines (or anything else) are not known for over sizing - one of your earlier points. Everything is stretched to the limits, including flow velocities of the oil passages. Remember, these basic engines were (likely) designed before we were born. Late 1930's. Passages are small, torturous, and restrictive.

Ok that is enough without beer.
 
I just wanted to weigh in on this thread briefly regarding hoses/pressure testing.

Finally.... a thought regarding pressure testing with air versus fluid. Think of what would happen if an end blew off of an air hose. You would have a violently whipping piece of rubber flapping around. The same would hold true while testing hoses. The reason that we test with fluid that is non compressible is for safety reasons. There is a lot less kinetic energy stored in fluid because it doesn't compress like air does. If you were to blow an end off of a fitting, you would get a squirt of water and a MUCH less violent result. It's just something to mention, because if you rig up something at home to test hoses...it is important to make sure that you protect yourself if the hose assembly fails. Even utilizing the non compressible fluid for testing, we still test in an enclosed cell that contains the hose assemblies. To date we have not had a failure...but I should try to crimp an end on halfway and see if I can get it to blow apart. It might make for a fun video one day.
Steve


Great points Steve. I personally immerse my hoses in a 5 gallon bucket, pressurize the end and then submerge that as well. Considering the very small volume in the hoses a home builder might make (as in ~3' feet long), there really isn't much internal energy to whip. A good example is a line burst in the old harbor freight hose i use for my home air compressor - it burst, but about 2 seconds later it was done and it's 25 feet long; however, you make a good point about personal safety. The line to be tested should be secured before testing to ensure whipping doesn't occur, and by all means, where proper PPE, which should include, eye, ear and hand protection as a minimum.
 
OK, so we know oil is much more viscous when cold, The oil pump is positive displacement. The pressure vs back pressure curve of the post relief part of the system gets very steep with low temperature. So much that many relief valves lack sufficient bypass volume to handle the flow and it will become a restriction to flow in addition to the restriction from the oil cooler to the relief. Most pressure relief valves are located on the main oil gallery to maintain pressure to the bearings more evenly during all phases of operation. Good for bearings and reduces field complaints of why the pressure is higher now after a filter change. Just standard heavy duty design practice. It might appear that Conti has a relief built into the pump. Not a good practice, but also hard to tell on that schematic. The restrictions are passages, oil cooler/vernatherm, oil filter then passages to the relief valve, plus the limitations of that valve itself.

Aircraft engines (or anything else) are not known for over sizing - one of your earlier points. Everything is stretched to the limits, including flow velocities of the oil passages. Remember, these basic engines were (likely) designed before we were born. Late 1930's. Passages are small, torturous, and restrictive.

Ok that is enough without beer.

The continental engine certification lists the oil relief as capable of relieving 107% of the engines oil pump flow (search for FAA docs online); an important point is that this is based on volume, not pressure. In order to achieve that certification, it had to be tested in all conditions. I'm certain Lycoming had to meet the same test standard. Note the oil relief between the pump and the oil galley on your drawing. There is no way for oil pressure to "jump the gap" and make pressure downstream; it's a fluid system. What your describing is not possible with a properly sized and working oil relief.

Additionally, oil pumps, being positive displacement, discharge based on volume, and aside from minor expansion of the pump casing and teeth due to increased operating temperature, that volume is fairly consistent over the entire engine operating temperature band. The only reason you notice changes in oil pressure is because the oil viscosity drops as it warms and flows out of the bearings and galley ports more freely AND the oil pressure instrument is at the far end of the oil galley. This only indicates end pressure; pressure at the oil relief - at the start of the oil galley - will not exceed pressure relief set point and is actually quite consistent over the operating temperature of the engine based solely on the relief spring seat pressure.

Now, if you're argument is that Lycoming's oil reliefs are improper for the application, I won't debate that, but you might take it up with Lycoming and see what they think.

P.S. The reason folks see oil pressure "return" after a filter change is because there is less headloss across the filter now. Each component in the system has a value of headloss, all of those added up equal total headloss of the system. The residual pressure, that which is indicated at the gauge, is equal to head of the pump (constant pressure downstream of the oil relief) minus total headloss. The reason oil pressure is higher when oil is cold is due to the higher density of the oil, which doesn't flow out of bearings and other loss points as quickly as it does when it's warm, which acts to keep internal pressure up in the oil galleys. Once the oil temp is up, it bleeds off quicker and therefore indicated pressure, at the end of the galley, or most remote bearing if designed to ASME standards, is lower.
 
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Great points Steve. I personally immerse my hoses in a 5 gallon bucket, pressurize the end and then submerge that as well. Considering the very small volume in the hoses a home builder might make (as in ~3' feet long), there really isn't much internal energy to whip. A good example is a line burst in the old harbor freight hose i use for my home air compressor - it burst, but about 2 seconds later it was done and it's 25 feet long; however, you make a good point about personal safety. The line to be tested should be secured before testing to ensure whipping doesn't occur, and by all means, where proper PPE, which should include, eye, ear and hand protection as a minimum.

Ron,

You are correct if there is no longer a supply source hooked up and the hose fails. The issue that I would worry about is the application of air to a hose to test, and then a fitting letting go. The compressor is still pumping 90psi air into this and so it has an entire tank worth of air to go through while whipping around. Either that, or until you are able to shut down the air supply to the tester.

The way that it is done with a hydrostatic unit is a small electric pump fills the hose entirely with water. Then, a very low volume but high pressure pump pressurizes the water inside. If a fitting were to blow, there would be a squirt of water and then a very low flow rate of water coming out the other end of the hose. It would probably be the equivalent of a tablespoon every second or so.

It sounds like you are doing it in a safe manner. It's important that people don't just decide to go and hook up 90psi (or more) air to a hose assembly and pressure test it. With that said....it was mentioned previously that testing to 150psi on an assembly doesn't necessarily mean anything. There is much truth to that. If a hose assembly is designed for a working pressure of 2,000 psi and you test it to 150psi, the fitting installation is not being proofed. It may hold even if you just press the fittings together and don't crimp them because there is enough of a friction fit to hold for a brief period of time. The important thing to remember is that to get a good and accurate test, the assemblies must be pressure tested to a correct "proof" pressure. That number varies from assembly to assembly based on the hose and fitting specs.

It is a very interesting discussion though. And it is always neat to see creative solutions that people innovate.

Steve
 
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For someone to say that a hose tested to hold 150 psi won't work for an system running at 60 psi is simply lacking in validation. The proof is that they are working just fine and have been. My old Zenair was built over 10 years ago with plastic brake lines - untested - and they are working very well with no leaks. In spite of the high quality of manufactured and tested 3000 psi hoses - they truly are not required for this application.

Ron....

This statement could be a bit misleading. If you are utilizing a 3,000 psi working rated hose in a 60psi application, doing a proof test at 150psi does nothing. I could probably forget to crimp the collars on our hoses and they would hold 150 psi due to the friction fit of the collars on the stems. However, in the real world, they would work loose very quickly and fall apart. If you are using a hose with a design proof pressure of 150psi, then testing to 150psi will tell you if the hose is good or not.

Also, one other thing regarding Teflon hoses. There is still a lot of misinformation out there. There are some very high quality "build it yourself" Conductive Teflon assemblies out there. There is a large and very important difference between Teflon and Conductive Teflon hoses. They should not be interchanged as the utilization of standard Teflon hoses where conductive Teflon hoses should be used (fuel systems and anywhere with flow) will result in pinhole leakage over the long run.

There is also a huge variance in materials that fittings are built with from different manufacturers.

Steve
 
Ron....

This statement could be a bit misleading. If you are utilizing a 3,000 psi working rated hose in a 60psi application, doing a proof test at 150psi does nothing. I could probably forget to crimp the collars on our hoses and they would hold 150 psi due to the friction fit of the collars on the stems. However, in the real world, they would work loose very quickly and fall apart. If you are using a hose with a design proof pressure of 150psi, then testing to 150psi will tell you if the hose is good or not.

Also, one other thing regarding Teflon hoses. There is still a lot of misinformation out there. There are some very high quality "build it yourself" Conductive Teflon assemblies out there. There is a large and very important difference between Teflon and Conductive Teflon hoses. They should not be interchanged as the utilization of standard Teflon hoses where conductive Teflon hoses should be used (fuel systems and anywhere with flow) will result in pinhole leakage over the long run.

There is also a huge variance in materials that fittings are built with from different manufacturers.

Steve

Good discussion and valuable points Steve. You'll be happy to know my hoses are conductive teflon.

I understand you're in the business of selling hoses and I would, in no way, impugn your products or discourage folks using your business. I simply hope to encourage folks to try things for themselves and learn - which really is the cornerstone of why the amateur build process exists.

I've looked at your website - (and I've bought stuff from you - totally love the RV-12 canopy latch), but I simply disagree that I need 10,000 psi rated hoses, or even 3,000 psi, for the application of my 130 horsepower engine aircraft, which has a maximum brake pressure of 500 psi, maximum oil pressure of 100 psi and maximum fuel pressure of 45 psi. I appreciate the well thought out mil-standard you use and respect folks that use them.

However, I've made quite a few modifications to my aircraft; some simple, some more elaborate (such as fuel tanks in the wings on a -12, along with a UL350iS engine) and I enjoy, like many others, "doing it myself". My brake, oil and fuel hoses are included in that.

As with any product, quality varies and I think you've made that point well.
 
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Good discussion and valuable points Steve. You'll be happy to know my hoses are conductive teflon.

I understand you're in the business of selling hoses and I would, in no way, impugn your products or discourage folks using your business. I simply hope to encourage folks to try things for themselves and learn - which really is the cornerstone of why the amateur build process exists.

I've looked at your website - (and I've bought stuff from you - totally love the RV-12 canopy latch), but I simply disagree that I need 10,000 psi rated hoses, or even 3,000 psi, for the application of my 130 horsepower engine aircraft, which has a maximum brake pressure of 500 psi, maximum oil pressure of 100 psi and maximum fuel pressure of 45 psi. I appreciate the well thought out mil-standard you use and respect folks that use them.

However, I've made quite a few modifications to my aircraft; some simple, some more elaborate (such as fuel tanks in the wings on a -12, along with a UL350iS engine) and I enjoy, like many others, "doing it myself". My brake, oil and fuel hoses are included in that.

As with any product, quality varies and I think you've made that point well.

Ron,

All very good points. I am glad to hear that you are using conductive Teflon hose. I've had this very conversation with many builders who (like you) simply want to build their own hoses for the experience. Earls makes some really high quality Conductive Teflon PTFE hoses that I have recommended to those who really enjoy the process. The key is quality. When it comes to firewall forward and engine hoses, you definitely want quality. For those builders who choose to outsource that aspect of their build, Tom and I are always happy to help. But, this is about more than just business. It is about builders (we both are) helping other builders.

I've worked with several builders who really wanted to fabricate rigid tubes on their own and were concerned about their flares. I had them send some sample flares to us and pressure tested them as a courtesy just to put them at ease and let them continue on their way with confidence. That is what I love about homebuilding. We are all doing something we love and it is fun and rewarding to be part of that process. I love helping people find the right solution for them. The right solution might vary from builder to builder based on what they want/need.

I'll also be the first to admit that I personally don't utilize ALL of our products on my own aircraft. For instance, we built our RV-10 gear leg rigid lines well before we started fabricating flex hoses. They are installed and have been trouble free so far. There is no need to rip apart a system that is functioning well and replace it for the sake of replacement. With that said, if it ever develops any cracking I will most certainly replace with the flex lines. I will do this not because I need a 3,000 psi rated hose. I will do it because I know that the quality of that hose is second to none and will last a lifetime.

I would love to see your -12 with the UL Power engine and wing tanks. I bet that is quite a performer. We do a lot of work with UL power and are the OEM provider for Zenith aircraft for all their UL power installations. It's a very popular engine. I haven't gotten to fly behind one yet, but do so vicariously through all the people that are using our FWF package.

Glad you like the RV-12 door lock. It was really fun to design and produce and we couldn't have done it without the help of some really great people who do beta testing for us.

Take care,
Steve
 
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Good discussion and valuable points Steve. You'll be happy to know my hoses are conductive teflon.

I've looked at your website - (and I've bought stuff from you - totally love the RV-12 canopy latch), but I simply disagree that I need 10,000 psi rated hoses, or even 3,000 psi, for the application of my 130 horsepower engine aircraft, which has a maximum brake pressure of 500 psi, maximum oil pressure of 100 psi and maximum fuel pressure of 45 psi. I appreciate the well thought out mil-standard you use and respect folks that use them.

However, I've made quite a few modifications to my aircraft; some simple, some more elaborate (such as fuel tanks in the wings on a -12, along with a UL350iS engine) and I enjoy, like many others, "doing it myself". My brake, oil and fuel hoses are included in that.

Ron,

One other question. I know that the 3,000 psi hose is overkill for the firewall forward pressures you are running. I am just curious what brand Conductive Teflon hose you are using and what the continuous working rated pressure of it is?

Thanks,
Steve
 
Generally speaking, most medium pressure rated hoses are 1500 psi working pressure, depending on the size. The proof test pressures for those are generally 1.5-2 times the working pressures, so that yields 2250-3000, also dependent on size and temperature. We chose to use the higher limit for -3, -4, -6, and -8, even though the true working pressure of the hose may be lower. Obviously, the larger the hose, the lower the working pressure.

YES--our experimentals run fuel pressures under 50 psi, oil pressures under 80 hopefully, even cold. Brake pressures in the 500-750 range. Landing gear for retracts are 1000-1200.
The old mainstay of aviation hose, Aeroquip 303, even has a working pressure of 1500, and its used in all sorts of applications. Carbed engines with 5 psi fuel pressure. So why do the OE manufacturers use a 1500 psi rated hose for a 5 psi application? I seriously doubt that you would run a piece of garden hose from the aviation aisle at Lowes because the working pressure was a closer match to what you needed. I personally saw some clear 'Lowes' hose on an oil cooler on an experimental several years back. It didnt end well for that builder, but it was experimental and 'could' do it.

Not to get in a flame war here, we choose to use teflon hose, and test the way we do for alot of reasons. Some make sense, some dont because they are way overkill. But in the long run, we think its the way to go. Some may disagree, and we respect that. But we also have the privilege to use whatever we choose on our planes because we can.

Tom
 
$20 bucks says those are cheap knockoffs that do not meet the AN standard.

Same folks also sell "ninja swords": http://www.wildweapons.com/

In particular, the ASME and/or ANSI standards for 37-degree flare fittings commonly used for terrestrial hydraulic systems have class-2 threads. "Real" AN fittings have class 3 threads.

That isn't to say that for many applications in our airplanes, class 2 threads would be inadequate. I'd bet they are fine. BUT, along with the tighter specs, what you are getting is a manufacturing process with a paper trail and a lot of QA. Those non-AN fittings can be made from improper alloys, improper heat treatment, or other quality deficiencies that can cause a failure, and you have no way to know. I've seen plenty of good SAE grade 8 bolts bought at hardware stores perform exactly as they are supposed to. I've also seen some that the heads twisted off in brittle failure at the spec torque value. You just don't really know what you are getting.

Use "real" AN fittings whenever you can.
 
This is my story.

I strongly advise the readers of this thread against buying automotive grade or commercial hydraulic grade hose assemblies for their FWF installations. Leave that option to builders who are happy to live on the edge of the cliff in order to save a piddling few dollars.

And this is my story and why I feel this way.

When I was building my RV7A back in 2010 I had all of my TSOd PTFE FWF hoses fabricated by Aviall (owned by Boeing). I was actually at their plant when the hoses were assembled and pressure tested. Their premises was just meticulously organised and scrupulously clean with guys floating around in white lab coats. It was more like a hospital than a factory. My hoses were assembled from the Parker Hannifin TSOd Stratoflex range of 124 PTFE medium pressure hose products for the aerospace industry. Those hoses have been bullet-proof in my aircraft and I have total confidence in them.

However I also wanted PTFE braided hoses for the brake lines down to the brake calipers. For technical reasons they needed to be -3 hoses with -4 end fittings but Aviall could not source the required Stratoflex end fittings (because they didn't exist). And that is where the whole thing started going downhill for me.

In the end I approached a major commercial hydraulic hose supplier that was known nationwide. They had the necessary hose and the necessary end fittings....and best of all they were fully owned by none other than Parker Hannifin (the manufacturers of the Stratoflex range). I thought I was on a winner.

But when I arrived to pick up my new brake hoses I was dismayed to learn that they had not been pressure tested. In fact this really well known hydraulic hose company didn't even have any pressure testing equipment. They were just assembling hoses and sending them out the door. That caused me some concern and so I asked where the end fittings had been sourced from. The shop manager didn't know but said he would enquire. The following day he advised me that the products used on my hoses were sourced from a supplier in Taiwan who was in turn sourcing components from 3 different unspecified manufacturers in China. And no-one had any idea of who the unspecified Chinese manufacturers were, or whether they operated to any know quality control standards. Now I was getting a bit nervous.

So I took the brake hoses to a LAME friend of mine who was running an aircraft maintenance facility and had them hydrostatically tested. The first hose passed a 3000 psi test....but the second one failed at 400 psi and would almost certainly have failed in service. That could have been very ugly for me. We disassembled the failed fitting and found that it had an obvious manufacturing flaw. That was a sobering moment for me.

So there you have it. If you buy Parker Hannifin's aerospace grade hose products you get components with a trustworthy parts pedigree that you can trust your life on. But the equivalent commercial grade hose products from the very same company are simply bought on price from a rotating array of Chinese manufacturers with totally unknown quality control protocols.

It's your life and your decision.
 
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To provide a bit of contrast to Bob's story, I'll add mine... Some years ago I was tasked with salvaging Aeroquip fittings from hoses which had lived a full life on an aircraft. I was amazed how well they came apart, and how good the fittings looked, even after years in service. I was sold on Aeroquip.

Fast forward a decade or two to the time when I was making my first hose on my first homebuilt aircraft. I dutifully ordered brand new Aeroquip hose and fittings from Aircraft Spruce. When I opened one of the bags I found quite a surprise... An Aeroquip fitting which was completely missing the threads in the area where the fitting mates to the hose! This obviously was a brand new fitting with no tool marks on it, and just as obviously a total manufacturing QA failure.

All this to say, "Trust, but verify," even with parts from high-quality aircraft part manufacturers and vendors.
 
This whole silliness is much like the pulled rivet vs AN standard solid rivet debate. In the face of actual tested values and parts that work, stating that these "non certified" parts won't meet "safety concerns" is counterproductive and detracts from your credibility.

This isn't a debate about certified vs non-certified.

"AN" is a quality standard. This supplier is advertising product as AN, without meeting the standard. It is a fraudulent claim.

Now consider the audience. We have a lot of builders here who really don't know the difference. They rely on the representations of suppliers, thus labels matter.

Understand that I fully support your position regarding "parts that work". Like you, I find quite a few non-certified parts to be perfectly adequate for my airplane. However, if I recommend them here, to the EAB builder community as I know it to be, readers may be sure that I'll identify them as what they really are.
 
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"AN" is a quality standard. This supplier is advertising product as AN, without meeting the standard. It is a fraudulent claim.

Interesting; I take it you've verified their components don't meet the standard? Or are you just stating your opinion as fact? In reality, you may be right, but there is a big difference between supposition and fact, and what you're doing is impuning a vendor without any data provided. And who says you need to meet an AN standard anyway?

This all comes back to using the right standard for the application. Using 3,000 psi tested stainless braided hoses that were manufactured to a military standard will do the job on my RV-12 brakes, but so will parker plastic hoses with brass compression fittings (that are amazingly similar to the ice maker hose installation on my frig).

Referring to Captain Avgas's story; I'm glad he was able to find a problem and repair it. I have a different story with involves Earl's hoses and fittings on my '69 Mustang. I replaced all of the brakes with {gulp!} reinforced rubber hoses about 20+ years ago - Earl's (now owned by Holley) has been in the business a long time, which says something about their quality. That was the standard for automotive brakes at that time and they still work very well. I purchased, assembled and installed them myself. And before you say "that's a car, this is an airplane", note that the braking service duty of a 2 ton car is much greater than my 750 pound RV-12.

Additionally, noting that the vast majority of failures are human error, when I hear that some product leaks - or failed, my first question is to the assembly of it. The key is to use the right component (standard) for the right service use (application) and then assemble and install it correctly. A high quality hose installed incorrectly is worse than an "AN Fitting From the Internet" hose that was installed right.

I noted that this thread has been viewed almost 3,000 times, yet only a handful of folks have participated in it. My guess is that there are many positive stories about amateur assembled hoses, but those stories are unheard due to reasons that probably include fear of rejection by a few folks on this forum that have very strong opinions. I hope for a more inclusive builder forum that welcomes diverse perspectives. I believe in having an open mind, just not so far open my brains fall out.

There's nothing wrong with failing at an experiment, so I encourage folks to try things - using good engineering practices (if you lack GEP, then please do seek assistance from the fine folks advertising here...). Note that I'm not encouraging someone to make something, install it on your airplane, load up your family and launch off into the clag. There is a substantial difference between my experimental airplanes and my Beechcraft Baron; and anyone who believes their experimental airplane meets or exceeds the certification requirements of FAR 23 is misguided - that is unless you have the certification and testing documents, and you use a certified A&P for your maintenance along with an IA for your annual inspections and major modifications. This is a silly concept. However, do use the best you believe you need, just don't think everyone has to do it your way. That is the entire value and beauty of E-AB, a category I hope does not go away.

And whether certified or not, or whether it was manufactured to a specific standard or you formed it from raw materials into a product YOU designed, any maintenance performed on airplane needs a post maintenance evaluation. Ground run the engine, take a test flight around the field where you can land if the engine quits, fly it for a defined period of time with a good test plan - evaluate the result and make changes if needed. But DO participate in amateur building.
 
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The continental engine certification lists the oil relief as capable of relieving 107% of the engines oil pump flow (search for FAA docs online)

I have been on the end of actually doing designs, testing, and writing the test request reports, not retrieving them as public docs - Can you point me in the right direction for these docs?

I know we (when I was at Contintenal, TCM at the time) got sued for a broken connecting rod. The rod was a copy made by another manufacturer. The claim was the FAA filed documentation was followed and so TCM was liable. When I asked if all certs could be looked up by anyone I was told no. So - a little help would be appreciated. Every thing was microfiche then.
 
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