What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Airport doesn't like us storing smoke Oil.

T

ty1295

Well Known Member
The airport recently sent me a letter saying I can't have more than 5 gallons of any oil in my hangar. I usually have 2 55-gallon drums of smoke oil to provide for our team.

I have provided them the MSDS sheet showing the flammability is the lowest level possible.

Has anybody else had a similar issue and how did you address it. I have a way to make it "disappear" if needed but it will make it inconvenient to have for the 12+ planes on our field that use it.
 
Is there anything in the hangar lease, airport rules or city ordinances that prohibit oil, or does it just ban the storage of gasoline? Would they have an issue if it was engine oil? Maybe educate the airport guy on smoke oil’s properties.
 
Boxes

Next time you order something from Amazon that is in a big box keep it… sits conveniently on top of drums and easy to remove.
 
Might be a fire department rule. They often have considerable authority as to what can be stored, and 5 gallons is typical. Here, they don't seem to have a rule about the quantity of 5 gallon containers, so it might be worth discretely checking.

Also, if you have hangar insurance, that policy might have something about this. Worth reading it and reporting back.

Dave
 
Typical lease language, typically ignored. This, or similar language has been in every hangar lease I have reviewed.
You can paint a thousand scenarios of what if’s should a catastrophe happen and they point to the excess oil being a contributing factor.

There are so many lease violations at our airport, if enforced, they would have to kick everybody out! They saber rattle from time to time, but do nothing….
 
I was recently made aware that our airport manager is taking heat from the fire marshal because our GA hangars appear to have ongoing maintenance and even.... aircraft assembly (oh my) going on. And, they're not equipped with sprinklers and explosion proof lighting!

These are hangars that are 40' T-hangars, going for $800 - $1,200 per month. They're nice newer insulated and heated hangars. But, dang! Explosion proof lighting; really?!!!

I'm still waiting each month for the axe to come down. But, it don't look good from where I'm sitting.
 
The lease states

"Lessee shall not store more than 5 gallons of flammable fluids of any one kind, or reasonable amounts of aircraft lubricants, with the Premises outside of the aircraft's fuel cell or motor vehicle's fuel cell. Any such fluids shall be stored, dispensed and disposed of in accordance with applicable fire codes, safety ordinances, and environmental regulations and laws."

As stated, I Provided a MSDS sheet showing it is the lowest flammability level possible.

I have heard of boxes used to hide things before.

For the past 5 years it has been a non-issue, new "management" with very zero GA experience is coming in now.

I did study up on the Part 16 formal compliant process. I hope it doesn't come to that.
 
Where does your MSDS data fall compared to this OSHA definition of flammable?
 

Attachments

  • flam.JPG
    flam.JPG
    90 KB · Views: 111
I submit flammable, as defined by the NFPA, (which the fire marshal would use for guidance) is the better standard:

"What is NFPA definition of flammable?
Flammable and Combustible Liquids | Environment, Health & Safety

A flammable liquid is defined by NFPA as a liquid whose flash point does not exceed 100°F (37.8°C), when tested by closed‐cup test methods, while a combustible liquid is one whose flash point is 100°F (37.8°C) or higher, also when tested by closed‐cup methods."
 
I always thought it interesting that we can store an aircraft with its fuel tanks built of thin aluminum .032 skin holding 40 gallons of Avgas. (More or less with different makes and models), but we can't keep auto fuel in a purpose designed commercially available steel or thicker aluminum tank for mogas. Many years ago, using that argument, bolstered with the fact that the FAA allows fueling with mogas on airports, I was able to put off a hangar contract change preventing the storage of fuel at our airport. The subject comes up again occasionally. Usually, it's when there is a personnel change with city employees, or a non-aircraft owner member of the airport board hasn't heard my argument. When the jet owners realize how much fuel their aircraft hold they usually drop their argument and side with me. It is an ongoing battle. I was unsuccessful in preventing a change that required storing oil in a metal container. Go figure. I bought a metal trash can and wrote flammable on it. :) So far it has worked. I'm sure it is a matter of time. Fingers crossed.

Joe
 
CATPart said:
Where does your MSDS data fall compared to this OSHA definition of flammable?
Click to expand...

Marc Bourget said:
I submit flammable, as defined by the NFPA, (which the fire marshal would use for guidance) is the better standard:

"What is NFPA definition of flammable?
Flammable and Combustible Liquids | Environment, Health & Safety

A flammable liquid is defined by NFPA as a liquid whose flash point does not exceed 100°F (37.8°C), when tested by closed‐cup test methods, while a combustible liquid is one whose flash point is 100°F (37.8°C) or higher, also when tested by closed‐cup methods."
Click to expand...

Good info to have in my back pocket. The MSDS Sheet has it listed as Greater than 298 Deg. F. As we know we inject it into exhaust that is ~1200+ degrees and we end up with smoke, not fire.
 
You are looking for opinions so here goes.

If I was a hangar owner (I am) and I leased out all or part of my hangar (I do) and my lease specified no more than 5 gal of flammable liquid to be stored in the hangar (mine does) and there was a fire and it was discovered there was more then the allowed amount of flammable liquid being stored....WOW.
It's possible my insurance company would deny loss and I would be stiffed for the loss. I would be forced to seek compensation aggressively from the tenant. If the claim was honored and the insurance investigator discovered the excess. I'm pretty sure they would pursue reclaiming damages also.

So there's that to think about when considering hiding the excess flammable liquid from the hangar owner.
 
mfleming said:
You are looking for opinions so here goes.

If I was a hangar owner (I am) and I leased out all or part of my hangar (I do) and my lease specified no more than 5 gal of flammable liquid to be stored in the hangar (mine does) and there was a fire and it was discovered there was more then the allowed amount of flammable liquid being stored....WOW.
It's possible my insurance company would deny loss and I would be stiffed for the loss. I would be forced to seek compensation aggressively from the tenant. If the claim was honored and the insurance investigator discovered the excess. I'm pretty sure they would pursue reclaiming damages also.

So there's that to think about when considering hiding the excess flammable liquid from the hangar owner.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, as a landlord myself just not hangars. I am not trying to hide anything, and the fact is that smoke oil is significantly less flammable than say a twin airplane full of fuel. We will see how this goes. Some of what they are doing I am very welcome, as the airport has a fair amount of hangars full of junk, and not used for aviation activity.
 
ty1295 said:
I understand what you are saying, as a landlord myself just not hangars. I am not trying to hide anything, and the fact is that smoke oil is significantly less flammable than say a twin airplane full of fuel. We will see how this goes. Some of what they are doing I am very welcome, as the airport has a fair amount of hangars full of junk, and not used for aviation activity.
Click to expand...

If the hangar owner looks at the MSDS sheet and allows it, great. In my case, if a tenant asked for an exemption, I would consult the insurance company and if they allowed it…then I might allow it too.

It’s the concealing of the violation that others support that concerns me.
 
Why not just store 55 gallons off-site (home?), and bring in 5 gallons at a time? When someone uses that, take it home, refill it, and bring it back?

Seems better than trying to hide stuff and risk the consequences.

"It's not the crime, it's the cover-up."
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Why not just store 55 gallons off-site (home?), and bring in 5 gallons at a time? When someone uses that, take it home, refill it, and bring it back?

Seems better than trying to hide stuff and risk the consequences.

"It's not the crime, it's the cover-up."
Click to expand...

At times I am supplying smoke oil for up to 12 airplanes, sometimes multiple flights a day. I have gone thru 65 gallons in 1 day just a few weeks ago.

The plane itself holds 4 gallons.

We will hang tight and see what the airport has to say.
 
I think a little spin might help here. “Smoke oil” sounds flammable but “Chem trail liquid” doesn’t.
So maybe you just need to print some new labels for the barrels.

-Lars
 
deMan said:
I think a little spin might help here. “Smoke oil” sounds flammable but “Chem trail liquid” doesn’t.
So maybe you just need to print some new labels for the barrels.

-Lars
Click to expand...

^^ This ^^ :)

"Cement Form Curing Release Agent" ... the more words you can add -- the better.
 
Or slap a random label on it :). I once saw 55 gallon drums of, seriously, "Mango Chutney" for sale in an Army/Navy Surplus store.

"What do you use for smoke oil?" "Mango chutney...makes great smoke!"
 
I think trying to make the argument that smoke oil would not contribute to and make a fire harder to extinguish is not the way to approach the issue. Smoke oil burns quite well as a recent accident proved. A better approach is that smoke oil is simply another aviation risk factor like the fuel in the aircraft tanks and as such should be allowed.
 
N804RV said:
... snip ...

But, dang! Explosion proof lighting; really?!!!

I'm still waiting each month for the axe to come down. But, it don't look good from where I'm sitting.
Click to expand...

I purchased my hangar 6-years ago and it has explosion proof lighting because that is what the building code required at the time it was built 6.5 years ago.

I am no expert but I believe explosion proof lighting may be required for NEW builds but what is installed in an older hangar should be grandfathered in because that is what was required when it was built.
 
I would suggest you don’t fraudulently label the product. That enters into a way different legal realm.

As I posted earlier, there are a thousand scenarios you can play should there be an incident….. I wouldn’t want one of them to be trying to explain why I relabeled what I was storing as something else.
 
RV6_flyer said:
I purchased my hangar 6-years ago and it has explosion proof lighting because that is what the building code required at the time it was built 6.5 years ago.

I am no expert but I believe explosion proof lighting may be required for NEW builds but what is installed in an older hangar should be grandfathered in because that is what was required when it was built.
Click to expand...

It has everything to do with how the space around the aircraft is classified. That is completely up to the local inspection authority. If you look at NEC 516, they show some examples, assuming it’s classified as Class I. At some distance, determined by fuel tank and engine location, the space becomes “unclassified”.

For some reason, in my new built hangar, they didn’t classify the space, but they would not allow any electrical items to be within 5’ horizontally from any part of the aircraft, or 15’ above any fuel tank. My lights were hung at 18’ so an RV is fine, but a high wing with wing tanks would not have been. They accepted that and I moved on, but down the road, a high wing airplane coupe be moved in and none the wiser.

I dealt with Building Inspectors my entire career. Their opinion trumps code, and any other authority, even those that wrote the code. Fire Marshals are even worse.
 
Fire cabinet?

For our hangars, the lease prohibits "Storage of flammables over five gallons total in other than fire department approved containers or in the aircraft tank."

From this I would presume a fire cabinet could be acceptable. Not cheap but maybe a solution, depending on how your lease is worded or how your local fire / building officials want to interpret it.
 
Last edited:
The drum storage cabinets new run in the $2K range and if you have to have one..... then you do. But you need approval before that purchase.

Is there an A&P shop somewhere on your field that already has drums of oil and such? Or an FBO? Maybe cut a deal to do your oil fills there for a small storage fee. Or get a fuel tank for the back of the pickup truck. Mount an air regulator on it and transfer with air pressure at the hangar.

Any workable solution is probably going to be close to 2K new, 1K used.
 
ty1295 said:
Good info to have in my back pocket. The MSDS Sheet has it listed as Greater than 298 Deg. F. As we know we inject it into exhaust that is ~1200+ degrees and we end up with smoke, not fire.
Click to expand...

I don't think you'd expect fire upon injecting it into the exhaust, even with a low flash point. The flash point is the lowest temperature at which the liquid can form an ignitable vapour.

Injecting it into the exhaust there is no source of ignition, just intense heat, and so you'd only get fire if the temperature in the exhaust exceeded the liquid's autoignition temperature.

However, with a flash point above 298F as you say, then you should be good unless they try to argue some funky non-standard definition of flammable.
 
Is there an option to keep it outside the hangar? Or put

A tank on a small trailer with both MoGas and smoke oil, and tow it to the airport when you need it.
 
Airport doesn't like......

At my airport (RTS), we get a fire inspection every year, the local fire department requires an oil containment system equaling 10% of the total quantity stored. A metal livestock watering trough painted red suffices. Is that what they call "thinking outside the box"? Dan from Reno
 
Officials like good references - - a search of NFPA for flammable liquids found this:

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1926/1926.152

It could take a little research for the definitions but could be of aid in the discussion to allow the quantity of oil in the OP. Of particular interest was 60 gallons of certain categories to be allowed. What category the smoke oil falls into was not obvious.

FWIW
 
Last edited:
guccidude1 said:
At my airport (RTS), we get a fire inspection every year, the local fire department requires an oil containment system equaling 10% of the total quantity stored.
Reno
Click to expand...

I know some government rules are idiotic, but does this make any sense? Your 55 gal oil drum starts leaking but it’s okay, because you have a 5.5 gal (10%) containment system???
 
GrahamF said:
Injecting it into the exhaust there is no source of ignition, just intense heat, and so you'd only get fire if the temperature in the exhaust exceeded the liquid's autoignition temperature.
Click to expand...

Even at the autoignition temperature, smoke oil is unlikely to burn in the exhaust pipe because the exhaust stream doesn't have any free oxygen, having just consumed it by burning fuel in the cylinder.

(Especially if you're running rich during aerobatic or formation flight. Rich mixture means you've run out of oxygen before you've run out of fuel)

It's theoretically possible for it to ignite in the pipe if you're running LOP with oxygen in the exhaust gas, but only if the smoke oil / oxygen mixture promotes combustion. At normal smoke system flow rates, maybe the smoke oil is too rich to burn until after it's exited the pipe?

tl;dr: I don't think you can extrapolate from the combustion behavior of smoke oil in an exhaust pipe to its behavior in a container during a hangar fire.

- mark
 
N804RV said:
I was recently made aware that our airport manager is taking heat from the fire marshal because our GA hangars appear to have ongoing maintenance and even.... aircraft assembly (oh my) going on. And, they're not equipped with sprinklers and explosion proof lighting!

These are hangars that are 40' T-hangars, going for $800 - $1,200 per month. They're nice newer insulated and heated hangars. But, dang! Explosion proof lighting; really?!!!

I'm still waiting each month for the axe to come down. But, it don't look good from where I'm sitting.
Click to expand...

What airport is that? Your own hangar or rented from the county?
 
Just spit the drum into 10 individual 5 gallons cans, and have your hangar neighbors each store one for you.. easy!
 
Appears this issue may be going away, after the flag got raised to a higher level and common sense may be coming into play.

In the future if anybody has any issues this thread does provide good info.

OSHA rates chemicals as flammable if flash point is 100 deg. F or lower.
Smoke Oil is greater than 300.

As a total side note I did research Part 16 FAA complaints and found out you can look at all complaints filed and outcomes of each online. Was a fun rabbit hole to go down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top