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abuses and misapplications of the 51 percent rule

Hmmmmmmm.

I have a coworker who started "building" a about a year after I started building my plane. He did it in a "builder assist" shop.

Was almost never absent from work and finished his plane in half the time it took me. His is a much more complex composite plane.

The DAR showed up for the inspection as arranged by the builder assist folks.

Talked to my coworker about 10 minutes, Looked at the plane, collected his rather substantial fee (4 times what I paid) and said "you didn't build this plane you will be hearing from the FAA and left. No airworthiness cert.

the tide is turning.
 
N395V said:
Hmmmmmmm.

I have a coworker who started "building" a about a year after I started building my plane. He did it in a "builder assist" shop.

Was almost never absent from work and finished his plane in half the time it took me. His is a much more complex composite plane.

The DAR showed up for the inspection as arranged by the builder assist folks.

Talked to my coworker about 10 minutes, Looked at the plane, collected his rather substantial fee (4 times what I paid) and said "you didn't build this plane you will be hearing from the FAA and left. No airworthiness cert.

the tide is turning.

Wow...you'll have to let us know if anything develops with that case. Of course, it wouldn't suprise me if someone like that turned around and filed a lawsuit against the DAR. :rolleyes:
 
Mike_ExpressCT said:
Of course, it wouldn't suprise me if someone like that turned around and filed a lawsuit against the DAR. :rolleyes:
Sounds to me like the DAR did his job. When you contract with a DAR, you are paying for the inspection, not the Airworthiness Certificate. Once the DAR accepts the 8130-6, he should either issue the airworthiness certificate or a letter of denial. Now if the DAR knew ahead of time what the outcome would be; then that's another story. In that case, he should have just refused the job. I have walked away from more than one.
 
Mel said:
Sounds to me like the DAR did his job. When you contract with a DAR, you are paying for the inspection, not the Airworthiness Certificate. Once the DAR accepts the 8130-6, he should either issue the airworthiness certificate or a letter of denial. Now if the DAR knew ahead of time what the outcome would be; then that's another story. In that case, he should have just refused the job. I have walked away from more than one.

Hey, I agree with you 100%, but common sense and responsibility in a given profession doesn't keep people from filing lawsuits in today's world, unfortunately.

And Mel, you'd know this...once someone was issued a letter of denial, are there any steps that one could do to re-apply? Just curious...(although, in a case like this, there's probably not much you could do)
 
different topics discussed here.

I have come late to this thread but have read through all the posts. What I am taking from the varied opinions is the fact that there are really two very different certificates being debated here. The first is the Certificate of Airworthiness. The second is the Repairman Certificate.

Perhaps the latter is the debate that garners the most attention in my eyes. Anyone, whether he was involved in building any part of his airplane or not, can do maintenance and repairs to an amateur built aircraft. This is perhaps one of the major reasons many of us are building. It is a major reason for me anyway. But the Repairman Certificate does not have anything to do with this activity of maintenance and repair. On the other hand, it has everything to do with signing off on those repairs. The Repairman Certificate gives the builder the rights and privileges to say to the world with his signature that he knows enough about this particular aircraft to certify that the repairs or maintenance was done appropriately. Only the holder of that certificate or an FAA certified IA can make that statement.

I fully agree with this idea. The person who was the "primary builder" of the aircraft should be the only one who has the right to obtain the Repairman Certificate for that aircraft. Whether that builder was a "professional builder" should make no difference in the assignment of this certificate. If he built it, he is the one assigned the Repairman Certificate. If he sells the airplane the new owner can still do any and all maintenance or repairs to that aircraft but he will never be able to sign off on the aircraft in order to allow it to legally be flyable after the repair.

But this is not the same argument being aired out in regards to the 51% rule when it comes to the aircraft receiving a Certificate of Airworthiness. Many here are arguing that a "professionally built" airplane should not be given a Certificate of Airworthiness. So why would the airworthiness be determined by the idea that someone was payed to build the airplane? Why would an aircraft be denied a Certificate of Airworthiness based on the notion that the aircraft was built by someone in a garage or by someone in an air conditioned fully equipped facility. Or, whether it was built by a guy who had never heard of a cleco or touched a rivet gun before instead of by a guy who had 40 years of experience building many multiple airplanes. What does this have to do with the airworthiness of that aircraft (other than the idea of quality of workmanship, in which case I would be inclined to believe a "professional builder" should build a better aircraft than a novice)?

If the DAR or the FAA inspector's job is to inspect airplanes for the purpose of determining if they are airworthy then that is what they should do. They are determining that the aircraft was built to standards that dictate whether it is a machine safe to fly and that the components of the construction meet the specified requirements for legal flight of that aircraft. I do not think these inspectors should be involved with becoming manufacturing and labor inspectors in order to determine the "legalities" of who built what.

This is not to say the DAR or FAA inspector should not determine who built the aircraft. They should make that determination but they should do so for the sole purpose of determining who should be issued the Repairman Certificate for that specific aircraft. However, that should be the extent of their concern as to who built the airplane. They should not do so for the purpose of determining whether the aircraft should be deemed airworthy and given a Certificate of Airworthiness.

Just my .02
Live Long and Prosper!

P.S. For those who may think my statements are suspect of my own build, I am building a slow build RV9A that another amateur started and that I am finishing. Everything built on my plane has been built by an amateur. No professional builder has had anything to do with the current construction nor will they have with any future construction.
 
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building and selling is educational

im learning how to run a buisiness. :D :rolleyes: and i enjoy making 10 dollars a week
 
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First off; Anyone can perform, AND SIGN OFF maintenance, repair and modifications to amateur-built aircraft. The ONLY purpose of the "repairman certificate" is to perform and sign off the condition inspection required annually.
As far as the inspector doing the airworthiness inspection, his job is to assure that the aircraft was built in accordance with FAA rules and regulations and that it is in a condition for safe operation. The regulations state that to qualify for experimental amateur-built category, the majority of the aircraft MUST be built for education or recreation and NOT for pay!

BTW Mike...If a letter of denial has been issued, the applicant may re-apply at any time. But he should be able to show that the reason for denial has been corrected. In the case of being denied for being professionally built, the only corrective action would be to apply in another category such as experimental exhibition. (Not a good category to be in)
 
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Here too

A friend of mine went to Germany and oversaw his Fascination D-4 being assembled and painted to his design. They shipped it to the dealer in Jacksonville, who then re-assembled the airplane and delivered it here. This particular airplane was registered as an experimental here.


He had intended to use the airplane in his aerial photography business and had a hole cut in a non-structural location for his camera. He flew for about a month when the FAA contacted him and said it can only go in the Exhibition category and that he could only fly it to an airshow, park it there and fly it home....period!

Long story short...he sued the dealer in court in Jacksonville, asking for his money back (over $130,000 :eek: ) and to take the plane back. The judge found in favor of the dealer and my buddy's livid and hates judges and lawyers who he thinks are in bed together.

Yep, another factory-built experimental unusable sitting on my property.

Pierre
 
Why Certified Costs Too Much????

The reason people do not conform to the spirit if not the letter of the 51% rule is they really want a certified airplane but after comparing various models, realize the experimentals offer more bang for the buck. Why the big difference? Liability. The certified models have a $50-75,000 built in penalty because of lawsuits. We live in a litigious society and we all know how frivolous lawsuits drove single engine manufacturers from the business. Now if we were able as a society to eliminate the cost difference between certified vs experimentals with tort reform, then the people who are not builders would buy their planes (the liablity premium would disappear) and the builders like us could go back to our hot muggy garages and put the finishing touches on our "masterpieces".

I am painting and the top half of my fuse in red. I should have painted it orange with all the orange peal I have. I am going to call Tropicana and see if I can get an advertising gig.

Steve Anderson
RV 7A
Quick build and it still has taken 3 years.
 
pierre smith said:
The judge found in favor of the dealer and my buddy's livid and hates judges and lawyers who he thinks are in bed together.

Yep, another factory-built experimental unusable sitting on my property.

Pierre
Let's see. What are judges before they are judges?
Oh yeah, Lawyers!
 
Name one certified plane that you would buy IF......

It cost $50,000 to $75,000 less (probably smaller amounts for lower cost aircraft).

I can't think of one so the liability premium is not a factor to me.
 
Ron Lee said:
It cost $50,000 to $75,000 less (probably smaller amounts for lower cost aircraft).

I can't think of one so the liability premium is not a factor to me.

Me either.

$50k to $75k less would make a new G1000 C-172 (they don't sell steam gauges anymore) about $145k to $170k. A new Warrior III about $25k less. Neither one will do anything the '75 Skyhawk I used to own wouldn't do - for 1/3 of the price!

Those may be reasonable prices in the market, and I understand the economics of low volume, but at those amounts the value I get for my dollar is just atrocious compared to any other product I own - heck I can get a HOUSE for that much money.
 
The whole reason for the Experimental category was to allow regular people to learn skills and aeronautical knowledge by building and flying "THEIR" airplane. The "SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" ( the pink one) is awarded to those planes built by those people who do this for that purpose. Hiring a service to build an airplane usurps this concept and illegally obtains a Special AWC under false pretenses. Building an airplane with the intent to sell it for gainful profit is equally dishonest and illegal. I feel no sorrow for anyone knowingly entering into an agreement to by or build an airplane under false pretenses and gets bit.

Builders for hire should certify themselves as any other aircraft manufacturer has to. Buyers and builders best heed to warnings or be prepared for the worst. If it preserves our hobby as it was intended, I say throw the book at anyone who violates the rules.

If we allow these infractions and violations to continue, we won't only be grandfathering 51% kits, we'll be grandfathering all completed kits with AWCs and ending any future personal building under the Special AWC.

Yes, there are many entities that can build superior aircraft, but they must do it within the rules. Yes, there are those who are, or claim to be, unskilled. Then they should seek to develop skills. That is what this whole homebuilt experimental thing is all about. REMEMBER!!!!!

JMHO and the law

Roberta
 
51 Per Cent

AMEN Roberta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My sentiments exactly!!!!! Wish I could have said it as well as you did.
 
The frog and the frying pan

The federal govt is out of control. I should know. Cars pass each other within inches at closing speeds of 160 mph, nobody goes crazy if someone builds a street rod in his garage. The only reason any of this is even an issue is because aviation is controlled by the federal govt. 46,000 people are killed on our nations highways every year and it is assumed to be part of the cost of living our lives. Honestly what business is it of anybodys if someone goes and safely flys his homebuilt or any other not for hire airplane? We are losing our rights daily because of the stupidity of the blind and unknowing public. The frog and the frying pan.
 
EXACTLY!

robertahegy said:
The whole reason...
... this whole homebuilt experimental thing is all about. REMEMBER!!!!!
Perfectly said Roberta! Thank you for taking the time to put all that into words.
 
robertahegy said:
Building an airplane with the intent to sell it for gainful profit is equally dishonest and illegal.

Roberta


Roberta has elegantly stated her viewpoint, and I agree with much of what she says. However, I do not care for laws that require knowledge of what one's "intent" is. Who is really in a position to know the intentions of others?Should we call out the thought police?

"Intentions" also tend to change through time. Exactly how long does my intent have to be limited to personal recreational flying before I am allowed to legally sell the plane I built for the market price with a clear conscience?

I would prefer the laws focus on defining the acceptable standards for aircraft safety and stay away from guessing what our intentions may be with respect to buying and selling aircraft.

respectfully,

erich
 
erich weaver said:
... I do not care for laws that require knowledge of what one's "intent" is. Who is really in a position to know the intentions of others?
...
Erich,
I, and I'm sure many others, would agree with you. The problem is, the purpose of the regs aren't to regulate you're intent. They are simply a result of the growing problem of those few who believe they have the right to do what they want and circumvent the intent of the law.

Laws that require knowledge of one's intent wouldn't exist if one would respect the intent of the law in the first place.
 
I Only Disagree Completely

Well, the builder I know doesn't seem to be awash in cash, and he very much enjoys the process, and learns from each plane. So what if he sells it? This is what allows him to build another.

If you had your way Roberta, we wouldn't have any repeat offenders, and we would be missing our on some serious knowledge than came come from building many RVs, knowledge which the factory does not possess by the way, because they have never built more than a few of each model!

If the builder holds the Repairman's Certificate, and the buyer is willing, who gets hurt? Answer: Nobody. The aircraft is still experimental, still cannot be used for commercial purposes. Don't forget an experimental category AWC is issued to prototype planes, and certified planes testing modifications.

I disagree that it is against the law, and I think that your interpretation would rob a lot of people from flying an RV built just the way they want it. How could that be good?

By the way you talk, you make it sound like you think FAA certification of airplanes has made flying airplanes safer! :eek:

I find these attitudes expressing outrage over *gainful profit* downright, well, COMMUNIST!

Nucleus
:D

robertahegy said:
The whole reason for the Experimental category was to allow regular people to learn skills and aeronautical knowledge by building and flying "THEIR" airplane. The "SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" ( the pink one) is awarded to those planes built by those people who do this for that purpose. Hiring a service to build an airplane usurps this concept and illegally obtains a Special AWC under false pretenses. Building an airplane with the intent to sell it for gainful profit is equally dishonest and illegal. I feel no sorrow for anyone knowingly entering into an agreement to by or build an airplane under false pretenses and gets bit.

Builders for hire should certify themselves as any other aircraft manufacturer has to. Buyers and builders best heed to warnings or be prepared for the worst. If it preserves our hobby as it was intended, I say throw the book at anyone who violates the rules.

If we allow these infractions and violations to continue, we won't only be grandfathering 51% kits, we'll be grandfathering all completed kits with AWCs and ending any future personal building under the Special AWC.

Yes, there are many entities that can build superior aircraft, but they must do it within the rules. Yes, there are those who are, or claim to be, unskilled. Then they should seek to develop skills. That is what this whole homebuilt experimental thing is all about. REMEMBER!!!!!

JMHO and the law

Roberta
 
Amateur built vs. manufactured

Nucleus and others:

It very much matters if the individual is manufacturing airplanes as a business. The regulations for amateur built aircraft do not allow it, even if the manufacturer is only running a one man shop in his garage. Roberta does not need me to defend her, but nothing she has written would limit repeat offenders, only manufacturers masquerading as amateur builders.

The other issues you and others have raised, such as "...who gets hurt?...Nobody" (highly debatable), the generally high quality of finished kit airplanes, proffitting from the sale of an amateur built airplane, or the desirability of allowing people to do whatever they want, are all completely irrelevant.

Allow me to paraphrase a Supreme Court justice and state that while I cannot define an amateur built airplane, I know one when I see one. And I know manufacturers passing themselves off as amateur builders, too. These are the people who, by abusing regulations, are inviting increased government oversight and quite possibly increased restrictions on our hobby. They are doing this for their own profit at my expense, and I very much resent it.

And, make no mistake, FAA regulation, including certification of aircraft, has made flying safer.
 
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Could it be that the reason amateur built airplanes are of such high quality, is that people are building them for themselves? I wonder if the quality would remain as high if a profit motive were involved.
 
First off hello everyone, I'm new here.
A simular situation went on with special construction motorcycles. Everyone has seen the Discovery Channel with the one off custom Harleys being built. They are registered as special construction and do not need to meet EPA requirments. This was a loop hole that has allowed us to build our own bikes the way we wanted and barely legal. Because of all the shops opening up and building bikes as a business the FEDS passed a law in 2006 EPA 420 which says that you can only build one special construction bike per lifetime and you can't sell it for 5 years no exception. The shops that want to stay in business have to become a manufacturer and meet all the EPA requrements.

When the Manufactures lobby for tighter controls, the last thing we should be doing is giving them a reason to tighten the regs.

Dan
 
Dan,

Welcome, and your first post was a good one! This is exactly what many of us fear will happen to our little corner of gubmint regulated paradise. Think it can't happen?
 
Another perspective....

My wife, a retired Naval supply officer, asked me what the big deal was about having an airplane custom built. I immediately Googled the FARs and printed the amateur built regs and that "it should be built for the education and enjoyment...blah, blah" and handed it to her to read. She nevertheless came back with "If it's a bad regulation, then it's bound to be violated. Furthermore, is it a less-safe airplane if its built by a small shop?" My reply was that it probably will be better than a first timer building it. So she had me again. She thinks that this reg needs to be revisited since we've come a long way, baby, since 1952 when homebuilts were all essentially scratch-built.
She continued...."Where's the victim? It seems like a win-win situation to me (having an airplane built)."

She suggested that maybe the builder and the guy buying it AND the FAA should all get together and work this out. :eek: Thoughts anyone?

I'm now getting more confused,

Pierre
 
...."Where's the victim?

Victim #1 is the general public.

These aircraft have not been certified to meet rather rigorous standards. They may meet them in your case and mine but airplane mills would have no bodylooking over their shoulder.

Lots of unscrupulous people out there who will cut corners and build on the cheap if they do not have to maintain or fly the plane themselves.

Victim #2 are the Cessna's pipers, etc who have spent untold millions meeting these standards and now need a return.

If you want to mass produce planes there are regs in place to allow you to do it. All it takes is time and money.

If you want to build your own the curent reg works fine
 
sprucemoose said:
Dan,

Welcome, and your first post was a good one! This is exactly what many of us fear will happen to our little corner of gubmint regulated paradise. Think it can't happen?
Yep! The old canard "be careful what you wish for" exists for a reason.

When exactly has asking/forcing the FAA and/or government in general to revisit a regulation ever resulted in less regulation than what was there before? Just hazard a guess as to who will have more say with the writing of the new rules: Textron, Cirrus, Piper, Hawker Beechcraft, et al or a few thousand "hobbyists?"
 
So what does this mean for current Vans Quick Build builders? I am building a quick build RV-9A. Will the current Vans Quick Builds be grandfathered in? When will the FAA make the final detemination?

Mel and the other DAR's out there: What is you take on this issue? Any good news in the future? I would sure hate to spend so much time and money on completing a QB only to find that it can only be used as static display. Say it isnt so.

Mike Miller
 
Lots of things are being looked at!

The FAA is NOT after quick-build kits per sey. They are primarily after the "build it for the customer" shops. However some QB kits could be affected. I really don't think the Van's QBs will be. (But, don't quote me on that!) There are actually a few QB kits on the 51% list that can be purchased already covered and painted.
Of course, at this point, we don't have any idea what the final shake out will be.
 
How does (how have they in the past) a kit manufacturer get the 51% kits certified as FAA compliant? Doesnt the FAA visit the manufacturer during the approval process and inspect the quick build kit to determine if in fact the manufacturer is only doing 49% of the required tasks?

Does anyone know the timing (estimated) of the final decision by the FAA? I see a big rush of folks getting their QB's done during the decision period. Will there be a grace period for folks already working on current kits (grandfather clause)?

Mike
 
FAA Approved List

How does (how have they in the past) a kit manufacturer get the 51% kits certified as FAA compliant? Doesnt the FAA visit the manufacturer during the approval process and inspect the quick build kit to determine if in fact the manufacturer is only doing 49% of the required tasks?

Does anyone know the timing (estimated) of the final decision by the FAA? I see a big rush of folks getting their QB's done during the decision period. Will there be a grace period for folks already working on current kits (grandfather clause)?

Mike

... it's hard to believe that the FAA will disallow the certification of an existing kit (built by you, not a hired gun) if that kit is on their existing list of approved kits....

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kit_listing/mfr_model_listing/

I could see them removing future kits from the list, but if you started an "approved kit", it's going to be real difficult for them to come and unapprove it...:)

JMHO

gil A
 
New QB kits

... it's hard to believe that the FAA will disallow the certification of an existing kit (built by you, not a hired gun) if that kit is on their existing list of approved kits....

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kit_listing/mfr_model_listing/

I could see them removing future kits from the list, but if you started an "approved kit", it's going to be real difficult for them to come and unapprove it...:)

JMHO

gil A

I see from the FAA list and my paperwork for my RV-8A QB that it was the original 1997 parts list. The kits are now matched hole and Van's sells them with the 1997 letter stating that the are approved by the FAA for meeting the 51% rule. But shouldn't a new letter and approval have been required if the kit has change so substantially? I am not saying the new QB has more or less done of over the old QB but is is very different. I know because I took delivery of the old style before I knew there were two types out there. I took the old style back and picked up the new matched hole style. Yet the letter on the FAA list is 1997, the matched hole kits came about well after this did they not? Interesting question with the looming regulatory debate going on here.

BTW my answer to the regulation is you only let someone build "X" planes in a lifetime, that way folks that like to build can do so numerous times but with limits be that 4, 5 or 8 planes. I think the intent is to to guard against the guy that hires an army of people to build airplanes and then he passes them off as his own to turn a profit, he may have built one and can answer a DARs questions but he is really running a manufacturing business. The same holds true for the builder for hire, he in fact could coach the client on how the build went and answer to some typical DAR questions or at least it seems like it could happen that way.

I think builder assist programs are OK but should be limited in scope, like the tails classes. They provide a great service in that it provides a good foundation to the builder for the future part of the kit. It is also good from a safety standpoint. We all know that you can read how to do something from a book, but you might no have the concept you think you do until someone with experience point it out to you. I took a fundamentals class but deiced to build my tail feather on my own. It is taking more time but very rewarding. Personally I plan to fly my RV-8A until I can't or it can't anymore!
 
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just thinking,
How does the DMV do it? How many used cars can you sell per year before your considered a dealer and made to get a license. Three is it? You build and sell three A/C per year, regardless of your stated intentions, you are conducting yourself like a "dealer" and would most probably be viewed that way in court, don't you think?
The FAA has in the past come down on folks "sharing expenses" who were found to be conducting de-facto Part 135 operations outside the law. My impression is that it would not be a stretch to tag someone as a "manufacturer" if they were conducting themselves like one, but trying to hide it behind the thin veil of "A hobby"
As others have alluded to here, one guy will probably end up being the example here, and the rest in "the biz" will go way under ground.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong, ;-)
DM
 
What we have in the form of experimental airplane building is a great privilege that the rest of the world envies, with a couple of countries' exceptions.

Actually it is the low fuel prices and the low total hour by hour cost together with the widespread acceptance of GA that the rest of the (aviation)world envies :) Hence the incredible growth in microlights (MTOW 472.5 kg) in in Europe in the last 20 years, low cost - no strangling regulations from the CAAs'. I don't know of a single country in Europe where you cannot build and fly your own airplane, experimental and microlights. Historically simplifyed "experimental" kind of rules emerges only when the "ordinary" rules and regulations becomes so complicated and restricted that it is impossible for amateurs/small companies to follow them for practical and/or economical reasons. In Europe there was a vacuum in amateur built airplanes after WWII an to the 50-60s when new relaxed regulations was needed. In the US, it seems to me that concerns regarding liability is one major motivation. All manufacturers are too scared of lawsuits to continue making certified carbs for instance, and this pushes people and the whole industry toward experimentals.

Anyway, I see this is an old thread/discussion, but it is very interesting. The 51% rule is really a paradox. One thing is to have the opportunity to build your own airplane more or less from scratch, which is good. Another thing altogether is being literaly forced to build (at least 51% of) your own airplane, an airplane that has higher performance in all respects compared with ordinary aircrafts, and has relaxed certifications of the aircraft itself and it's equipment as well as relaxed maintenence procedures. At the same time it is used as any certified private airplane, and it can be sold to anyone.

It is quite obvious that the one and only reason for an aircraft like the RV-10 to be certified as experimental is because of the 51% rule. In all respects it compets head to head with privately owned high performance certified 4 seaters in the 2-400,000 $ range. There is nothing experimental about an RV-10. I don't know, but I would imagine that the main original reason for the 51% rule was to prevent people from simply mounting a Cessna 172 wing on a Cessna 172 fuselage together with a new engine, new avionics/electrics and new paint and register it as an experimental aircraft. But I really do not see the real difference between doing this and building a QB RV-10, except with the RV-10 you have manuals, drawings, it will be much cheaper and the end result will be much better.

In Norway, and I guess in most of Europe except maybe England?, experimental aircrafts also include restoration of more than 30 years old aircrafts. It is not restricted to kits, plans build and prototypes. The 51% rule is a bit different as well, since it applies to kits only, not the builder/owner. The owner and the builder can be two different persons, and the builder don't even have to build the plane himself either, only administrate and be in charge of the building process, but there can only be one single administrator. Usually though, the builder(s)/(administrator) and the owner is the same person.

Personally I just don't get it. To be able to build from scratch or kit - yes, to have that opportunity is great. But to restrict it so that 51% has to be built, makes no sense whatsoever regarding certification and use, as long as the airplane is restricted from commercial use. An example here is the CH-601. It can be purchased ready to fly, almost ready to fly or as a slow built kit according to the European UL rules, this makes no difference regarding certification. It can also be built and registered as an experimental, but only as a slow built kit. The experimental version can have higher MTOW, meaning larger engine and can in general be a much more complex aircraft with full IFR, but according to the law you cannot purchase it ready to fly and tested from the factory. I was thinking previously that this had something to do with laws and liability issues, but there are no such issues amongst the several 1000 of UL certified planes in Europe, so this cannot be it. Now I am thinking that the 51% rule smells more of sentimental and stubborn old men.
 
"Builder" definition

I suspect if this subject ever got to court, the lawyers would argue about what the word "Builder" means, like "depends on what the meaning of "is", is..." if you get my drift...

I hired a "Builder" to for a home a decade ago. He showed up once in awhile with a clipboard, but never drove a nail, and possibly never in his life because he went straight from college to home building. It was quality construction because his subs were full time pros, while he took care of QC and building the business.

Just random thoughts on the above... BTW, for those who object to someone making a few sheckels... I miss the building process, so am looking for an appropriate semi-finished project that I can make a bit on and offset some of the expenses of my aviation habit. I'm hoping that each hour I work will translate into 4 gals of 100LL or about 30 mins of flight... In my view, a great tradeoff and all fun. I do agree that the cases where someone just pays a pro to build an RV from start to finish including the flight testing defeats the intent if not the letter of the law ...

OTOH, it's probably better built and safer than most first time builders will do..

Just my dime, per usual,

Jerry
 
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US and Europe

......I don't know of a single country in Europe where you cannot build and fly your own airplane, experimental and microlights. Historically simplifyed "experimental" kind of rules emerges only when the "ordinary" rules and regulations becomes so complicated and restricted that it is impossible for amateurs/small companies to follow them for practical and/or economical reasons. In Europe there was a vacuum in amateur built airplanes after WWII an to the 50-60s when new relaxed regulations was needed. .....

It is quite obvious that the one and only reason for an aircraft like the RV-10 to be certified as experimental is because of the 51% rule. In all respects it compets head to head with privately owned high performance certified 4 seaters in the 2-400,000 $ range. There is nothing experimental about an RV-10. I don't know, but I would imagine that the main original reason for the 51% rule was to prevent people from simply mounting a Cessna 172 wing on a Cessna 172 fuselage together with a new engine, new avionics/electrics and new paint and register it as an experimental aircraft. But I really do not see the real difference between doing this and building a QB RV-10, except with the RV-10 you have manuals, drawings, it will be much cheaper and the end result will be much better.

.......

Bj?rnar,

I don't see how you can compare US regulations for homebuilding to some of the European ones...

In England, certified inspectors are needed, kits modifications have to be approved by a central authority.....

In the US, just a final inspection is needed... I think the European RV builders are doing a good job, in spite of their countries overpowering regulations...

It's a night and day comparison...

The RV-10 is Experimental because it is not built on a certified (and hopefully consistent) production line... even the US built ones come out with many different engine dash numbers (and the automotive engines)....
Our homebuilts lack the consistency of a production line plane... which actually is a good thing in most cases...:)

gil A
 
Bj?rnar,

I don't see how you can compare US regulations for homebuilding to some of the European ones...

In England, certified inspectors are needed, kits modifications have to be approved by a central authority.....

In the US, just a final inspection is needed... I think the European RV builders are doing a good job, in spite of their countries overpowering regulations...

It's a night and day comparison...

The RV-10 is Experimental because it is not built on a certified (and hopefully consistent) production line... even the US built ones come out with many different engine dash numbers (and the automotive engines)....
Our homebuilts lack the consistency of a production line plane... which actually is a good thing in most cases...:)

gil A

It was just an answer/comment to another post mentioning that topic. There are no overpowering regulations concerning building your own airplane, at least nothing that cause any problems, except maybe in England? as I also pointed out. I guess English people just tend to be more organized than others, even the rest of Europe :) The rules by the CAA's are generally very simple (MTOW 2000 kg, 51% rule, similar minimum instruments as GA etc). The local EAA chapters or organizations similar to EAA are the "authorities" for all practical purposes. I have a tech counsellor that comes by to see if my riveting is reasonably OK, and he signs the building log. You just have to be open about what you do, and the build log follows the aircraft throughout it's life in the same manner as certification documents or as a QA document of the job well done. The point is, there are no practical restrictions to what we can or can't do, this is not the point where we envy the US ;)

Regarding operation of airplanes in the "GA category" as a whole, experimentals included, the situation is quite different, that is where we envy the US, mostly due to costs. The European UL category (similar to LSA in the US), is a different world regarding operation mostly, but also building to some extent since factory built and homebuilt are all the same.


I understand why the RV-10 is an experimental aircraft according to the current rules. I understand what constitutes an experimental aircraft. I understand that for many people, myself included, to build an airplane is a great experience. What I don't understand is why an experimental aircraft cannot also be built to a finished state by a factory for those not interrested in building. This 51% rule makes no sense to me, it is no logic behind it, at least not as long as finished experimental aircrafts can be sold on the open market. It is a no-issue in the european UL world, lots of people still prefer building their own planes, even though factory finished planes can be purchased (CH-601 just to take an example, but the same is true for almost all of them).
 
Two weeks to taxi

The "builder" is involved in all of the tasks along with beaucoup helpers????
 
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I don't know how this place can possibly claim they comply with the 51% rule http://www.twoweekstotaxi.com/

:confused:
Because they found a big loophole in the "letter" of a set of regulations written decades before anyone anticipated such a thing as "2 weeks to taxi" being possible or marketable. Are they way beyond the "spirit" of the regulation? Sure, but I don't think they care since there's a lot of well-heeled people ready to pay them for their professional build.

A Glastar was my original first choice (yes, over an RV). At that time, I just couldn't afford to build a Glastar. Now I won't out of principle.
 
I don't know how this place can possibly claim they comply with the 51% rule http://www.twoweekstotaxi.com/

:confused:
The reg counts 51% of the TASKS of building an airplane, not 51% of the total PERSON-HOURS of labor that goes into it.

You can drive every bloody rivet of an RV airframe substantially fewer (less than 50% of the total??) of a full QB and you're still credited with completing the task of riveting.
 
The "tasks" defined...

The reg counts 51% of the TASKS of building an airplane, not 51% of the total PERSON-HOURS of labor that goes into it.

You can drive every bloody rivet of an RV airframe substantially fewer (less than 50% of the total??) of a full QB and you're still credited with completing the task of riveting.

...and the specific list of tasks is detailed in the FAA AC 20-139... listed here...

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/amateur_regs/

As an example of the kit manufacturer's QB logic... there are 16 wing tasks, and 13 empennage tasks...

...and that's why the empennage doesn't come pre-built in the QB kits...:)

gil A
 
Change coming

The EAA and FAA have already met and the FAA was asked to reconsider changes to FAR regs in the "Experimental primary kit built" rule which was passed by the FAA in 1993, according to the new EAA Sport Aviation magazine. Poberezny and staff pointed out that homebuilding has become more complex and would like to see the rule modified so that more builders who don't necessarily want to comply with the 51% rule, could use more builder assistance without a restriction.

This year, the FAA is going to issue a Federal Register notice with a comment period to follow. The notice will delineate the FAA's policy on determining the proportion of assistance provided to an amateur builder, or so I read the article.

Regards,
 
Nice article by Vans

But I don't understand this quote near the end:

"Anyone having an aircraft pro-built, or employing an excessive level of commercial assistance, should be aware that licensing such aircraft as an amateur built is going to become difficult, if not impossible."

How will they stop it? Since it reportedly happens today, possibly with FAA or DARs knowing what is going on, what would change this?
 
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Interview

But I don't understand this quote near the end:

"Anyone having an aircraft pro-built, or employing an excessive level of commercial assistance, should be aware that licensing such aircraft as an amateur built is going to become difficult, if not impossible."

How will they stop it? Since it reportedly happens today, possibly with FAA or DARs knowing what is going on, what would change this?

An interview with the "builder" by an experienced person (DAR or FAA) would soon determine if the "builder" knew, in detail, how the plane was put together....

gil A
 
What's the point of certification?

Some questions I'd like to ask about this topic...

Do Boeing or Cessna make their aircraft better thanks to the FAA?

Or would the market would force them to make good products or go out of business?

Looking at other products that don't need government approval - would they be better if they had to fill out reams of government paperwork? For example, my computers are much better and cheaper today than they were in the past. Motocross bikes are much better (not cheaper). Not much in the way of government regulation there.

Would the amateur built aircraft market be different if we could just build and fly, whether for profit or not, without getting any involvement from the government?

The UK has tons more regulation for amateur built aircraft than the USA - are they safer?
 
Do Boeing or Cessna make their aircraft better thanks to the FAA?

Does following the regulations for safety provided by the government reduce the liability for Boeing and Cessna? After all the government is regulating what is determined to be safe. I think not. Therefore the liability will be what forces Boeing and Cessna to produce safe products.
 
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