About That Poor Riveting......

[StuBob]

Vic has started an incredibly helpful thread with photos of bad workmanship. I didn't want to pollute that thread with these quick questions, so here:

Other than previous incidents involving spars on RV-3's, as well as the occasional thunderstorm, have there been any in-flight breakups of RV's? Have there been any breakups traceable to bad workmanship?

 

[Kyle Boatright]

The factory -8 that came apart comes to mind, as do a couple of lost tails on -7's.

Edit to add: I think all of those accident aircraft were subject to being operated outside of design parameters.

 

[Christopher Murphy]

a thought or two

Some of us have been around EAB aircraft for 40 or 50 years and it amazes me how the attitude and view of these "homebuilt" aircraft has changed over the years. Years ago one had to be somewhat of a craftsman with very good skills to build an aircraft that would pass an FAA inspection. One had to build almost every single part of the aircraft with only peers for quality control. (Ever wonder what the origin of the the EAA was?)

Now, one can watch a video or bang together a tool box and suddenly they are a skilled craftsman.

I am not speaking for Van's but part of the reason they provide you, the kit builder with maybe not the best skills, with some of the most critical parts already built is as much quality control as making the aircraft easier to build.

Builders are like pilots, they come in all skill levels, some are conscientious and some don't care.

Its good that you find these sub- standard rivets,,, but it should never be a surprise. This kind of thing has been happening since men started building airplanes.

When you walk up to an EAB airplane, never assume that its 100% up to standard. I have declined to ride in more than a few airplanes because I suspected it wasn't well built or designed. I don't let other people fly my airplane, not because I am afraid of them cracking it up, but because I know I built it and if something I did caused it to crash I would be devastated.

my point is... to stress E Amateur B

cm

 

[JonJay]

Vic has started an incredibly helpful thread with photos of bad workmanship. I didn't want to pollute that thread with these quick questions, so here:

Other than previous incidents involving spars on RV-3's, as well as the occasional thunderstorm, have there been any in-flight breakups of RV's? Have there been any breakups traceable to bad workmanship?

All three accidents mentioned above had little to do with workmanship or design and everything to do with operations outside of the design envelope.

On the RV7 accidents, the tail was just the first thing to go when those airframes where flown at speeds well above VNE. At some point, something is going to give.

However, some assumptions where made that one of the 7's did have issues with build error in that bondo or filler added weight behind the hinge line possibly contributing to when flutter started or occurred. Had it not been flown well beyond VNE, my guess is it would still be flying today.
As evidence by the rudder with all the foam filling, that was certainly "build error" but that airplane flew without incident, but who knows how it was flown, or if it was just an accident waiting to happen.

I do not know of any, or have heard of any, RV airframes that failed due to workmanship.

 

[airguy]

When you walk up to an EAB airplane, never assume that its 100% up to standard. I have declined to ride in more than a few airplanes because I suspected it wasn't well built or designed. I don't let other people fly my airplane, not because I am afraid of them cracking it up, but because I know I built it and if something I did caused it to crash I would be devastated.

I was talking to a CFII this weekend, asking him to give me IFR instruction in my airplane. He did a pretty thorough look-over on my airplane before agreeing to do that, he had seen some of those examples we've been seeing in recent threads.

 

[ChiefPilot]

I think another thing to keep mind is how many people actually operate their RVs to the full extent of the envelope. I know very, very few people who will run to +6G at max acro gross (or +4.4 or +3.8 at the corresponding weights). I know fewer still (exactly zero) who operate to -6G/-3G/-1.5G as appropriate to the airframe limitations.

I think many of the examples of poor riveting here might go a long time, maybe forever, in straight-and-level flight. Maybe they'd even be fine at higher positive load factors since the horizontal is pushing the tail down. Negative load factors are where I'd be concerned in those cases.

And that's where the danger of these things really is and why the pre-buy is important - the plane may have 1000 hours on it, but a new buyer might decide to fly it differently and perhaps even in an area of the envelope where it has never been. They would unknowingly be a test pilot. I'd submit this is highly likely, given that a lack of attention detail by the builder likely applies to phase one test cards just as it applied to the construction steps.

 

[jrs14855]

RV7

Just want to point out that in one RV7 structural failure the non builder pilot was attempting to learn aerobatics while being coached by someone in another airplane. Also there was previous ground damage to the rudder that was repaired, I believe by reskinning.
All in the final report.