Van's Air Force
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Business Announcement From Van's Founder Dick Vangrunsven
- Thread starter CubedRoot
- Start date
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Zero4Zulu
Well Known Member
How about producing over size rivets just a little larger diameter than 3/32 with the same size head. Not an oops rivet. This would allow for reaming the Laser cut holes enough to remove the heat effected zone. This would save the LCP’s.
When I rebuilt my RV6A I removed the bottom wing skins. When I went to reinstall them the holes were over size. I bought a little extra long rivets and pre-squeezed them on my mill table to fit the oversize holes better. Worked out fine.
After a little more thought… How about making oversize dimple dies and making the dimples a bit larger too. It’s easy to make dimple dies. ****, Van’s could sell them too.
It just doesn’t make sense to scrap all that aluminum. There ought to be a work around that is acceptable.
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Staunch111
Well Known Member
Tool value will not decline. Year on year their prices have icreased and will continue to do so regardless of whether Vans folds or not.
Mark33
Well Known Member
In this situation, it’s maybe one thing to break a price contract with people who have kits on order but who actually haven’t received said kits yet. It’s a completely different situation for those people who already have their kits and just need replacement parts. How should this be handled? Should these people be required to repurchase all of the parts again? Should they get a discount on the parts?….or would they have to purchase the parts at the new higher price?
As an example, I see that you’re building a 10. You have your empennage kit in hand and waiting on your QB wings and fuselage. How would you suggest handling the cost involved in replacing the parts in your empennage kit? How would you want your QB wings and fuselage handled? I’m sure you would want your new QB kits to be LCP free….especially if you had to pay more for them than what you were quoted.
I can see maybe biting the bullet and paying a certain amount more for parts and/or kits that you’re making a fresh new order on, but that doesn’t address kits that people already have in hand.
Now I’ll use myself as an example. I have a complete -14 QB kit sitting in the hangar. I literally have everything sitting here that’s needed to build a complete airplane. What should I do? I’m completely invested in this project. How should people like me be dealt with? Let’s say I suck it up and basically buy a new empennage out of my own pocket. Then what? I still have a QB fuselage and wings sitting here. What do I do with them? What about the shipping cost involved….that I’ve already paid for?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that increasing prices is one thing….the free market will determine the breaking point, but increasing prices doesn’t address those of us who are currently affected….including yourself.
Store ordering
While I like the sentiment of donations I’m not sure if giving free money to Vans is necessary. They mention that they have a lot of capital tied up in inventory.
Well, I can help with that!
My wings are getting to a point where I need Proseal and this sounds like a great time to give vans some cash in return for their inventory.
I might throw in any in-stock parts I need for the ER tanks I am considering adding to my 9. And maybe some bolts and nuts I’d otherwise order from spruce as well. The light box also would be neat for Christmas.
Is that gonna save Vans - no, not by itself. But it’s the best I can do and it’s only a small financial risk to me.
- Lars, building a 9 with LCP
While I like the sentiment of donations I’m not sure if giving free money to Vans is necessary. They mention that they have a lot of capital tied up in inventory.
Well, I can help with that!
My wings are getting to a point where I need Proseal and this sounds like a great time to give vans some cash in return for their inventory.
I might throw in any in-stock parts I need for the ER tanks I am considering adding to my 9. And maybe some bolts and nuts I’d otherwise order from spruce as well. The light box also would be neat for Christmas.
Is that gonna save Vans - no, not by itself. But it’s the best I can do and it’s only a small financial risk to me.
- Lars, building a 9 with LCP
ccarlson
Well Known Member
Some real numbers for reference/consideration: I have the SB wing, SB fuselage, and empennage kits for an RV-14A. There are a total of 317 LCP in my kits. The cost of those parts as of 8/15/2023 is $4,430.17. 122 LCP are red/yellow and total $1,719.04 of the $4,430.17. The remaining 195 LCP (2,711.23) are blue/green. Tax and shipping are not included.
I have been patient, and I am still trying to be. It hasn’t been easy, and yesterday made it far more difficult. I want Van’s to survive, but I can’t help but think the folks attempting to save the company won’t give a darn about me in the final accounting. I hope I’m wrong, but I certainly won’t bank on it.
Not quite. Based on the photos in the original thread, the HAZ looks like it can be larger than the next size rivet. Parts that are already dimpled may have cracks that extend beyond the visible HAZ. And there is also the problem of the "notch" on some holes because the tooling path started outside the hole and not inside the hole.
The question of what happens to people that bought quickbuilds - I don't know. If Vans doesn't have cash on hand they don't have the cash on hand to make anything right. And that means people with quickbuild kits are their single largest liability - and also likely the people who take the largest loss. It's a bitter pill. I converted one of my QB kits to a SB already.
I'm not sure why I'm writing this, I guess I just need to get it out. I'm sad, very sad. I'm sad for Vans, I'm sad for all the affected builders, myself included. I have $20k on deposit, and three kits with LCPs, lots of parts. If I lose all that, there's no recovering the project.
I'm trying to be positives and patient, but it's getting hard
. We are on 4 months now, and the news just keeps getting worse as time goes by. I am glad that Van is taking a more front and center role, and the C-level management team has been reworked, it was clearly needed. What a terrible situation for all.
I'm trying to be positives and patient, but it's getting hard
. We are on 4 months now, and the news just keeps getting worse as time goes by. I am glad that Van is taking a more front and center role, and the C-level management team has been reworked, it was clearly needed. What a terrible situation for all.
scsmith
Well Known Member
Put yourself in their shoes for a bit
One thing that I hope comes out of Van's message, and the comments on this thread, that in my mind was/is lacking in the other thread on the LCP problem is, PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES.
I talked with Greg Hughes a few weeks ago, and I tell you, you could hear the fatigue and the demoralization in his voice. He (the whole company really) has been living this LCP problem for over six months now, with no clear end in sight.
The engineering aspects of the problem are much better in hand now with the extensive, thorough (may I say exhaustive) testing they have done. They have done enough to establish with confidence that the airplanes built from their kits are safe and durable. But the production and customer-service aspects are still daunting. Both from a tangible costs standpoint (scrapping bad inventory, figuring out what to do with QBs that have been shipped back, and figuring out how to deal with each class of customer who has parts, customer-assembled components, and QB components) PLUS the intangible costs standpoint (customer satisfaction, reputation, etc).
I hope you all can imagine and empathize with the toll this all is taking on the leadership and all the employees at the company. Consider the toll of high blood pressure, sleepless nights, families worrying about their livelihoods, etc.
There were some comments in the 'other' thread about the problem stemming from Vans "chasing profits". I find this comment rather disingenuous. When their kit-order rate almost doubled at about the beginning of the Covid pandemic (just like many other DIY industries), they did their best to respond to the customer demand, to keep their customers happy and maintain their strong reputation in the kit-airplane market place for reasonable delivery times, delivering what they promise, at reasonable prices. The fact that they got caught in a trap of 3rd-party production parts not meeting quality standards is a hard lesson, but it is pretty unfair to challenge their motivations.
In this thread I see a spectrum of responses from "I'm all in to support Vans, what can I do to help?" to "well, business is business, and if they can't fix this, they don't deserve to survive." No doubt that the real business world is a cold and unforgiving place. But I think to most all of us, Vans is much more than a business. They are a huge contributor to what is at least a community and maybe even a family.
Put yourself in their shoes.
One thing that I hope comes out of Van's message, and the comments on this thread, that in my mind was/is lacking in the other thread on the LCP problem is, PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES.
I talked with Greg Hughes a few weeks ago, and I tell you, you could hear the fatigue and the demoralization in his voice. He (the whole company really) has been living this LCP problem for over six months now, with no clear end in sight.
The engineering aspects of the problem are much better in hand now with the extensive, thorough (may I say exhaustive) testing they have done. They have done enough to establish with confidence that the airplanes built from their kits are safe and durable. But the production and customer-service aspects are still daunting. Both from a tangible costs standpoint (scrapping bad inventory, figuring out what to do with QBs that have been shipped back, and figuring out how to deal with each class of customer who has parts, customer-assembled components, and QB components) PLUS the intangible costs standpoint (customer satisfaction, reputation, etc).
I hope you all can imagine and empathize with the toll this all is taking on the leadership and all the employees at the company. Consider the toll of high blood pressure, sleepless nights, families worrying about their livelihoods, etc.
There were some comments in the 'other' thread about the problem stemming from Vans "chasing profits". I find this comment rather disingenuous. When their kit-order rate almost doubled at about the beginning of the Covid pandemic (just like many other DIY industries), they did their best to respond to the customer demand, to keep their customers happy and maintain their strong reputation in the kit-airplane market place for reasonable delivery times, delivering what they promise, at reasonable prices. The fact that they got caught in a trap of 3rd-party production parts not meeting quality standards is a hard lesson, but it is pretty unfair to challenge their motivations.
In this thread I see a spectrum of responses from "I'm all in to support Vans, what can I do to help?" to "well, business is business, and if they can't fix this, they don't deserve to survive." No doubt that the real business world is a cold and unforgiving place. But I think to most all of us, Vans is much more than a business. They are a huge contributor to what is at least a community and maybe even a family.
Put yourself in their shoes.
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Mark33
Well Known Member
I wouldn’t like it, but I could absorb the price of the “red” replacement parts and probably live with the “blue/green” parts….but I’m still stuck with QB kits with parts that are entombed within. So basically, I’m even deeper in the hole because I could very likely have to completely dismantle my QB kits to make the repairs. I know this is still a lot of early speculation and hopefully a better solution will be realized, but it’s all very frustrating to say the least.
ccarlson
Well Known Member
I hear you loud and clear, and I feel for you and all of those impacted. I didn’t mean to layer on more speculation, I just wanted to put some real numbers into consideration.
Steve, very good points and for me, personally, the Vans family (including this site) are why I chose it for my first build.
But, and I mean this with empathy, the whitewashing of the LCP and other issues by the "everything is great" crowd wasn't helping. I've never seen bad news get better by ignoring or delaying it. Valid or not, the money spent on testing was wasted until and unless there is specific acceptance criteria issued.
I desperately want Vans to get through this, both for the community and (selfishly) so I can finish the plane that I've spent the last decade daydreaming about. But wishful thinking won't help - rip the band-aid off and chart an executable path.
CaptPausert
Active Member
My RV-9A project is fairly minimally affected by LCPs just a few parts in the wing, elevator and rudder and the only ones I have riveted are the rudder. My biggest concern is that if Vans restructures that they might discontinue the RV-9 and I wouldn't be able to get the fuselage and finishing kits. This is a very large financial investment for me and I really hesitate to invest further until I know for sure I am going to be able to finish the project. I really want to finish. I don't have the budget to restart on a -14 especially if the prices go up. I am going to go ahead and finish the wing as far as I can for now but I am not going to buy the autopilot servos and engine core until I know for sure I will be able to buy the kits. If I am unable to finish it could be years before I am able to save enough money to build something else. So I am definitely a bit frustrated.
And one they didn't learn with earlier problems with suppliers. They were caught in a trap *of their own making* by not having good QC. With luck, the new management team will be able to recover the company to production and profit, AND implement sound financial, quality and inventory controls. If not, sooner or later this same lesson will be repeated.
And yes, I most assuredly DO want Van's to recover from this and lead a long, healthy business life. But for now, it seems they're going to have to learn the hard way lessons that many others in business (indeed, in aerospace in particular) had already learned.
PilotjohnS
Well Known Member
Dont see it
I see them going back to what they truly know, and that is making parts for slow build kits and limiting the potential for quality escapes from outside vendors, like LCP and quickbuilds. I expect an announcement soon that quickbuild kit purchases will be suspended and work will concentrate on recovery with emphasis on piece part production.
About RV9a parts, there are so many planes out there that I expect there to be a sizeable inventory of parts already out there to support the current fleet. JMHO
I am willing to help anyone with a qb kit to replace the LCP parts. (See seperate thread)
I dont see Vans dropping any models, especially the RV9a. I see them de risking their portfolio and dropping the quick builds for a while. The quick build rework from the primer issue seems to have started the financial issues, along with the hugh increase in shipping costs.
I see them going back to what they truly know, and that is making parts for slow build kits and limiting the potential for quality escapes from outside vendors, like LCP and quickbuilds. I expect an announcement soon that quickbuild kit purchases will be suspended and work will concentrate on recovery with emphasis on piece part production.
About RV9a parts, there are so many planes out there that I expect there to be a sizeable inventory of parts already out there to support the current fleet. JMHO
I am willing to help anyone with a qb kit to replace the LCP parts. (See seperate thread)
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
I think quick builds adds a level of risk and complexity to their operation that is difficult to justify at the moment.
Also with the coming increase in kit costs, plus the five fold increase in shipping costs, it’s going to put the cost of quick builds way up. So I can see orders dropping off naturally.
Maybe they will offer a service where you buy a SB from vans and they put you in touch with a company that can build it. But then the risk is all on you, not vans.
I think Vans needs to understand what it is, is it a kit manufacturer or a kit builder? It can be both, but right now it needs to concentrate on its core business.
Also with the coming increase in kit costs, plus the five fold increase in shipping costs, it’s going to put the cost of quick builds way up. So I can see orders dropping off naturally.
Maybe they will offer a service where you buy a SB from vans and they put you in touch with a company that can build it. But then the risk is all on you, not vans.
I think Vans needs to understand what it is, is it a kit manufacturer or a kit builder? It can be both, but right now it needs to concentrate on its core business.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
I see some real worry. I understand if you have deposits or have a partial kits, worried if you will be able finish. This is not a BD5 kind of thing. For those who don't know Bede BD-5 was never a viable kit plane, long story look it up. However Van's is different.
The comment Van made about consultants coming in, hope they are good and give a darn about the customers and aviation. I suspect if Van does not agree he will not bend to pure profit motives.
Bottom line I see good coming out of this, Van's Aircraft becoming stronger in the long term and supporting all their customers now and for generations to come. Keep the faith.
The comment Van made about consultants coming in, hope they are good and give a darn about the customers and aviation. I suspect if Van does not agree he will not bend to pure profit motives.
Bottom line I see good coming out of this, Van's Aircraft becoming stronger in the long term and supporting all their customers now and for generations to come. Keep the faith.
I find it surprising how attitudes have changed over the years.
My first investment in Van's products was 34 years ago, 4 aeroplanes later I remain a great fan of what they do and would be prepared to invest/give another chunk of cash to ensure the company survives and I can continue to fly and build in the future.
For me this this is not a simple vendor/purchaser relationship.
When I bought my first kit there were many companies popping up, and disappearing nearly as quickly. Quality was variable. Honesty in marketing materials was very variable. Van's was different. Their marketing materials were accurate. The quality of the parts were good, and have improved greatly over the years. Van's treated their customers well, customers treated the company well.
If the webstore included $100 for a 1' length of unobtainium with a shipping date of 2100 I would buy one a month for the next several months.
I am not affected by the LCP issue but wonder why some are making such a big noise? Are they now rueing their Covid induced investment and looking for a way to recoup their money? My view is take it on the chin. It is your problem. Go for a walk and calm down, look at what you have, not what you do not. It is in no-one's interest to force the company any further down this road than is necessary.
My first investment in Van's products was 34 years ago, 4 aeroplanes later I remain a great fan of what they do and would be prepared to invest/give another chunk of cash to ensure the company survives and I can continue to fly and build in the future.
For me this this is not a simple vendor/purchaser relationship.
When I bought my first kit there were many companies popping up, and disappearing nearly as quickly. Quality was variable. Honesty in marketing materials was very variable. Van's was different. Their marketing materials were accurate. The quality of the parts were good, and have improved greatly over the years. Van's treated their customers well, customers treated the company well.
If the webstore included $100 for a 1' length of unobtainium with a shipping date of 2100 I would buy one a month for the next several months.
I am not affected by the LCP issue but wonder why some are making such a big noise? Are they now rueing their Covid induced investment and looking for a way to recoup their money? My view is take it on the chin. It is your problem. Go for a walk and calm down, look at what you have, not what you do not. It is in no-one's interest to force the company any further down this road than is necessary.
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
Totally agree with that.
This is my first kit plane, but I spent many years building kit cars with varying degrees of support from manufacturers who would disappear overnight. Usually taking large amounts of customers money with them. There were a couple in the industry that were renowned for being difficult and rude to deal with. I, of course, built one each of their cars!
I chose Vans Aircraft because a: they made the aircraft I wanted, b: the level of support provided free of charge. I can contact them with a problem and I usually get a solution within 24 hours, and it’s free!
I really don’t think people understand what they have with Vans Aircraft. A supplier of kits that’s actually interested in you building their aircraft, interested in the community around it, and passionate about aviation. That, to me, is priceless.
If I won the lottery tomorrow I would quite happily chuck Vans $1m with no strings, just to see them continue into the future.
How to help Van's
This seems to be the best way to help at this point. They are inventory rich and cash poor .
If you need something they show in stock, now is probably a good time to order it.
I also like the idea of gift certificates. Kinda like a one year 5% bond. I'd buy one to help out.
This seems to be the best way to help at this point. They are inventory rich and cash poor .
If you need something they show in stock, now is probably a good time to order it.
I also like the idea of gift certificates. Kinda like a one year 5% bond. I'd buy one to help out.
pilotkms
Well Known Member
EAA ???
Just received the latest version of Sport Aviation. Their financials on page 15 seem to indicate they are flush with (our) money. Who better to float Vans a loan than the organization that has most likely benefited the most from Vans over the past 50 years. Are they listening (reading) ???
Just received the latest version of Sport Aviation. Their financials on page 15 seem to indicate they are flush with (our) money. Who better to float Vans a loan than the organization that has most likely benefited the most from Vans over the past 50 years. Are they listening (reading) ???
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Another opinion, worth what you pay for it
No doubt this is true. However, EAA isn't in the business of supporting kit makers. There are numerous names no longer here and EAA didn't (and shouldn't have) support(ed) them. As a Lifetime Member, I don't want EAA funds used for this purpose.
As much as I want to see Van's survive, it's not EAA's purpose to pick winners and losers.
No doubt this is true. However, EAA isn't in the business of supporting kit makers. There are numerous names no longer here and EAA didn't (and shouldn't have) support(ed) them. As a Lifetime Member, I don't want EAA funds used for this purpose.
As much as I want to see Van's survive, it's not EAA's purpose to pick winners and losers.
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I completely agree with your statement. Whenever I had a question during the construction of my RV-4, plans #202, Van would often answer the phone. He was patient and thoughtful with his explanations. Even though he might have answered the same query 201 times he understood each caller was a Person not just a plans number. The ship will be righted, keep the faith. We need a 'like" button.
Now he has asked us for a few weeks to sort things out. He earned it. Let's be patient.
You can't trust their store inventory, or at least not completely. I have suspended construction since July because my final step on my empennage kit is the tail cone and I need to finish match-drilling before I can disassemble, deburr, prime, and then rivet. But I have laser-cut parts in there as placeholders.
So, even before this latest news, I went on the website and placed an order for about $100 in parts to replace my laser-cut parts. All parts were shown as in-stock. It still hasn't shipped. I called them just before the announcement and they were supposed to look into it.
But I was willing to give them money today to buy something that they will eventually replace for free, in order to continue my build. By continuing my build, I will (hopefully) be able to make the final payment on the fuselage kit sooner than I would have.
But as of right now, they are unable to provide me the parts necessary to finish my build, even if I pay for them. That's the first step in a number of steps that need to happen before I can give Van's any more significant money. I'd like to think that they'd care about getting that cashflow started up again.
(the next steps are I need the replacement parts for my VS, Elevators, and Rudder so that I can rebuild them from scratch)
So, even before this latest news, I went on the website and placed an order for about $100 in parts to replace my laser-cut parts. All parts were shown as in-stock. It still hasn't shipped. I called them just before the announcement and they were supposed to look into it.
But I was willing to give them money today to buy something that they will eventually replace for free, in order to continue my build. By continuing my build, I will (hopefully) be able to make the final payment on the fuselage kit sooner than I would have.
But as of right now, they are unable to provide me the parts necessary to finish my build, even if I pay for them. That's the first step in a number of steps that need to happen before I can give Van's any more significant money. I'd like to think that they'd care about getting that cashflow started up again.
(the next steps are I need the replacement parts for my VS, Elevators, and Rudder so that I can rebuild them from scratch)
A lot of good insight here. When you do the logical math here, it is just not feasible for Vans to deliver on these kits at the promised price points. It would seem that either they BK / restructure and customers don't get kits or they try down the path of getting customers to pay more for what they ordered. We saw what happened when Vans did the hard work to address the LCP issue. Customers said He$$ no, GIVE me new parts or my money back. If you apply that to this scenario, it seems that chapter 11 is the only way to go; bad news for guys in the queue, but good news for the rest of us, as the company continues on mostly as it did. At this point there likely isn't anyone that is going to pony up several million dollars for the sole purpose of delivering promised kits at predetermined losses. Another option is just to cancel all of the orders and promise deposit refunds over a longer time period; then start all over with kit prices that maintain a profitable operation. Customers would get an option to roll the deposit over on to a order at the new pricing. This along with some short term loans would solve most of the problems. However, if folks run to their lawyers and start lawsuits, then Chapter 11 is required to stop it. Even the hint of a few lawsuits would all but require chapter 11.
Larry
actually, in the recent testing vans cut all of the ribs in half on a wing and then stressed the wing to 150% of rated load and saw NO fatigue cracking of the primary structure (i.e. the skins and spars). Sadly, no one here saw that as a reason to change opinions on the LCP issue.
Just for clarity here, I agree 100%. They have made several critical business mistakes here (one not mentioned here is not addressing inflationary increases with their deposit based orders, as well as the decision to burn cash on new equipment). However, I believe that EVERY decision they made was well intentioned and without malice and DEFINATELY not profit chasing. It is very obvious to me that each mistake was due to financial inexperience or that made in combination with a goal of doing the right thing for their customers. Sadly, regardless of intention, in the business world a mistake is a mistake and each brings consequences. I truly feel bad for Van himself. Can't think of too many people with more integrity. Just wish he had hired better leaders to help him. IMHO, the LCP issue was just the last straw. The financial problems should have been seen a year or two ago, if someone was looking. Van openly admitted that they have been selling kits at a loss. Combine that with pouring out cash for new equipment and growing the labor force and and scraping millions in QB's and you get what we have. Someone was not minding the financials when they transitioned from 40 years of orderly growth to what started in 2020 with the demand bubble.
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I totally agree with you on that. Generally speaking I have very rarely seen small businesses act with malice. Unfortunately, though even well intentioned mistakes will hurt the business and its customers in the long run.
Oliver
Paul Thomas
Well Known Member
They have/had a CFO and I discussed this very issue with him at Sun 'N Fun in 2022. We talked for half hour, but he wasn't hearing what I was saying. I tried to leave him with two takeaways: you can't fund operating expenses with 25% deposits and you need to raise prices. Even without LCP, this outcome was sadly foreseeable with a slowdown.
I refused to order until lead time came down... which now means I'm awaiting a kit order when I would have had it.
The big question going forward is whether people are going to be willing to give up final payments months in advance when you'd be left without recourses if they don't ship. Cash flow is going to get REALLY tight in the next 90 days because customers and vendors are going to be more strict on receivables.
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I don't think it's a case of badly managed finances, I think the problem is simply that cash stopped flowing in. Once the issue really took hold and customers realised how serious the problem was, they stopped increasing their own exposure: deposits will have dried up (for instance, if the LCP issue hadn't have happened I would probably have ordered my fuselage by now) and requests for early final balance payments will have been refused. Unless you have a cash pile the size of Apple's, no business can survive if the cash coming in suddenly reduces to a fraction of what it had been.
The really bad business decisions were:
1. Using laser cutting in the first place
2. Not having any traceability
3. Not having any QC
4. Failure to reassure affected customers
5. Spending money on the testing
6. Getting defensive and rowing back on the original commitment to replace LCPs
The last one was the one that will have dried up the incoming cash completely. Once a company starts behaving like that, customers stop sending it money.
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[ed. removed quote from deleted post. v/r,dr]
In retrospect I am wondering if by preaching the ‘ be calm they will fix it attitude’ when kits start getting delayed 2 years ago followed by a lack of clear communication and promises missed allowed them to take deposits worth years of delivery under cost.
If we would have gotten mad then they would have increased prices two years ago to limit demand insuring cash flow and everything would be fine now.
So yes I think we are partially responsible.
Oliver
In retrospect I am wondering if by preaching the ‘ be calm they will fix it attitude’ when kits start getting delayed 2 years ago followed by a lack of clear communication and promises missed allowed them to take deposits worth years of delivery under cost.
If we would have gotten mad then they would have increased prices two years ago to limit demand insuring cash flow and everything would be fine now.
So yes I think we are partially responsible.
Oliver
What kind of world would it be to live in if everyone who made a mistake was to become an outcast. We are all human and we all make them. This is a company with 50 years of strong reputation and generally run with integrity and concern for all of it's customers. If they fess up to their mistakes and build a solid plan for recovery, yes, I could see the market accept that and continue to trust them. These are not decevious people that tried to run off with deposit money or pad their own pockets with it. They got caught in the grinders TRYING to satisfy unrealistic demand with the goal of keeping it's customers happy by honoring unprofitable promises. This is the kind of mistake that people can look past if handled the right way.
Also I did not suggest backing out of promises. Just asking the depositors to rightfully accept the economic realities of the last three years. If all of the customers contractually accepted a reasonable increase instead of a credit, I am confident that Vans could get loans to get over the LCP and QB primer drains on the cash.
While i think the crowd funding thing is a non starter, the one way that WE, the VAF community, could help is to get a LARGE majority of depositors to develop a campaign showing trust and support and a willingness to pay more and stick with the company through this hard time (i.e. not cancel an order). I speculate that this announcement came when it did because of all the refund requests. It is possible they have enough cash to run for a bit, but not enough to issue refunds. That would go a LONG way in helping vans to secure investors and / or loans t dig out of this. We could also stop the craziness about getting replacement LCP parts and show a willingness to work with Vans on a reasonable method of resolution that allows BOTH the builder and Vans to end up in a reasonable position. Not fully baked ideas, but if we really want to see vans survive, these are the things we should be discussing and collaborating on vs asking for donations.
Also I did not suggest backing out of promises. Just asking the depositors to rightfully accept the economic realities of the last three years. If all of the customers contractually accepted a reasonable increase instead of a credit, I am confident that Vans could get loans to get over the LCP and QB primer drains on the cash.
While i think the crowd funding thing is a non starter, the one way that WE, the VAF community, could help is to get a LARGE majority of depositors to develop a campaign showing trust and support and a willingness to pay more and stick with the company through this hard time (i.e. not cancel an order). I speculate that this announcement came when it did because of all the refund requests. It is possible they have enough cash to run for a bit, but not enough to issue refunds. That would go a LONG way in helping vans to secure investors and / or loans t dig out of this. We could also stop the craziness about getting replacement LCP parts and show a willingness to work with Vans on a reasonable method of resolution that allows BOTH the builder and Vans to end up in a reasonable position. Not fully baked ideas, but if we really want to see vans survive, these are the things we should be discussing and collaborating on vs asking for donations.
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Please...
I would like to remind a few folks of the posting rules. https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm. I don’t enjoy locking down a person’s account, but if those keep abusing the posting rules I will. I don’t enjoy it.
There are millions of places online where you can type anything you want. This place isn’t one of them.
Thank you and kindest,
dr
I would like to remind a few folks of the posting rules. https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm. I don’t enjoy locking down a person’s account, but if those keep abusing the posting rules I will. I don’t enjoy it.
There are millions of places online where you can type anything you want. This place isn’t one of them.
Thank you and kindest,
dr
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Didn't realize they had one. Pretty sure he won't survive this.
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2theskyy
Well Known Member
100% correct
robertahegy
Moderator/Tech Counselor
Van's is still the Best Kit Aircraft in the World and one of the few that will stand behind their product and do what it takes to correct any mistakes. They will do the right thing. This is a big gulp. Give them the time they need.
And yes, I'm still, and always will be, a Van's Cheer Leader.
Roberta
And yes, I'm still, and always will be, a Van's Cheer Leader.
Roberta
Same here. My finishing kit is supposed to be ready next spring. If Vans asks for final payment this winter, I'll make it without hesitation.
Vans isn't going anywhere.
Pretty sure Dick VanGrunsven will do whatever it takes to protect the legacy he spent 50 years building.
TheEnthusiast
I'm New Here
I just placed the order for the balance of my kits, standard build, including the $17,000 finishing kit I won't need for 2 years, and paid the deposit.
A gamble sure, but to me the possible reward outweighs the risks. Why?
A. Van, the new CEO, and the employees need affirmation that they have a solid company and solid products and solid customer base, that all is not lost
B. They need money coming in, a few dozen deposits right now may really help them weather the next couple months by getting caught up on payroll and keeping their machines running
C. I have no idea how many cancellations there actually are, but if there are a lot then my place in line may be drastically shortened
D. Maybe, just maybe, they'll honor the current price and I'll sneak in before any increases are announced.
E. I really really want a 14!!!
Maybe it blows up in my face, maybe it doesn't. I'm not about to treat them as a charity and just give them money as many have suggested, but I will 100% support them as a business in their time of need.
Me putting my money where my mouth is... or hopefully my money and not my foot!
A gamble sure, but to me the possible reward outweighs the risks. Why?
A. Van, the new CEO, and the employees need affirmation that they have a solid company and solid products and solid customer base, that all is not lost
B. They need money coming in, a few dozen deposits right now may really help them weather the next couple months by getting caught up on payroll and keeping their machines running
C. I have no idea how many cancellations there actually are, but if there are a lot then my place in line may be drastically shortened
D. Maybe, just maybe, they'll honor the current price and I'll sneak in before any increases are announced.
E. I really really want a 14!!!
Maybe it blows up in my face, maybe it doesn't. I'm not about to treat them as a charity and just give them money as many have suggested, but I will 100% support them as a business in their time of need.
Me putting my money where my mouth is... or hopefully my money and not my foot!
Vans has 11,000 dollars of my money towards an engine. If they go bankrupt and I never see that money actually go towards an engine it will be a huge problem not only for me but for anyone who wants to do future business with them. That’s why I feel that it won’t happen. Keeping my fingers crossed and feel very lucky I’m only short the FWF kit at this point and no LCPs.
squeakersc063
Well Known Member
Do the engine deposits go through Vans or Lycoming? I ordered mine in Aug 2022 and I don't really remember who I made the wire out to. I know the order confirmation was a Vans form but I thought we were buying from Lycoming with Vans acting as an intermediary.
RV8JD
Well Known Member
This was the C-Suite, announced 6/2021 to address the significant growth in customer demand:
https://www.vansaircraft.com/2021/06/vans-aircraft-announces-management-changes/
"- Rian Johnson has assumed the role of President and Chief Technology Officer. Rian has worked at Van’s Aircraft for more than 20 years, most recently in his previous role of Vice President and Chief Engineer. He will lead the company as a whole from the engineering and design perspective that has made Van’s a successful company for nearly 50 years.
- Greg Hughes has assumed the role of Vice President and Chief Operations Officer. He maintains responsibility for marketing and community relations while his role expands to a broader operational focus. Greg joined Van’s Aircraft in 2018.
- Mitch Lock has shifted from his prior role as president of the company to the newly-created role of Chief Financial Officer, bringing greater focus to the critical work of managing the company’s financial operations and investments into the future."
- Greg Hughes has assumed the role of Vice President and Chief Operations Officer. He maintains responsibility for marketing and community relations while his role expands to a broader operational focus. Greg joined Van’s Aircraft in 2018.
- Mitch Lock has shifted from his prior role as president of the company to the newly-created role of Chief Financial Officer, bringing greater focus to the critical work of managing the company’s financial operations and investments into the future."
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Yeah, CFO's that lead a company to the brink of bankruptcy tend to have their career interrupted. Not saying it is his fault, as I know nothing of the internal decision making, but pretty confident that he doesn't survive. If the CFO sees it coming and can't stop it, they tend to run away long before this point.
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I'd pay to replace my LCPs, if it'd help
I'm of the same mind. I'm certainly not as bad off as many, with 49 red/yellow/blue LCPs on the shelf, spread over 19 unique part numbers. But, if given the opportunity, I'd consider spending full retail for replacements and share the financial pain, maybe in consideration for some benefit, like moving closer to the front of the line (think toll lanes on the freeway).
Anyway, I hope Van's, et al., is monitoring this thread, and realizes there are a lot of folks willing to do their part to help if given the opportunity.
I'm of the same mind. I'm certainly not as bad off as many, with 49 red/yellow/blue LCPs on the shelf, spread over 19 unique part numbers. But, if given the opportunity, I'd consider spending full retail for replacements and share the financial pain, maybe in consideration for some benefit, like moving closer to the front of the line (think toll lanes on the freeway).
Anyway, I hope Van's, et al., is monitoring this thread, and realizes there are a lot of folks willing to do their part to help if given the opportunity.
squeakersc063
Well Known Member
Honestly since their engineering is showing the parts are usable they really should just make anyone who wants replacement pay full retail price. They've tested the things to an exhausting extent and their testing shows the parts will last longer than the plane will even with the cracks. I've certainly seen worse stuck in military planes that fly 9Gs and have been for the last 40 years.
ccarlson
Well Known Member
Honestly, no dice. This has been discussed at great length in the other thread. To put it bluntly: Van’s marketed kits as having CNC punched parts as a key kit feature, they refused to accept LCPs as returns, and they are no longer having LCPs produced. I am not asking for anything more than what I paid for. And to be clear, I want Van’s - and all of their deeply connected cottage industry contemporaries - to survive & thrive. I just want an honest and fair shake consistent with the agreement in place when I put down my money.
I wonder if Vans could offer some sort of warranty to cover any future structural issues over X amount of years or flight hours, attributed to LCPs? If their analysis is sound, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, it shouldn't cost them that much. Would this prompt anybody to build on? Given the choice to build an airplane now, at your originally projected cost, or (maybe) two years from now at possibly double the cost, do you think some people would elect to accept LCPs?
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