Y

ybarra15

I'm New Here
I had fully paid $65,881 for my RV-10 finish kit, QB wings, and QB fuselage. Today, their proposal to modify my order put the new price at $103,900. How about that 58% increase?!?!

I'm not inclined to pay that, but the good news is they claim to have all my items in stock. All I have to do is come up with an additional $38,018.
 
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I don't have nearly as much money in this as other people do right now so maybe my decision was a bit easier. Plus, I'm with the more optimistic group on here with how this will all shake out. I've been waiting on my RV-9A empennage kit since it was ready for crating back in September and have a deposit down on a wing kit. I just want to start building so I agreed to it the second I received the email and paid the extra money.
 
twpuls said:
I don't have nearly as much money in this as other people do right now so maybe my decision was a bit easier. Plus, I'm with the more optimistic group on here with how this will all shake out. I've been waiting on my RV-9A empennage kit since it was ready for crating back in September and have a deposit down on a wing kit. I just want to start building so I agreed to it the second I received the email and paid the extra money.
Click to expand...

What was your increase?
 
Keep in mind that in some cases Vans is adding sales tax to the orders.

In my case that is a pay me now or pay me later kind of thing that has nothing to do with Vans! TN is aggressive when it comes to use tax on airplanes. Every nickel I pay in sales tax is a nickel I won’t pay in use tax.
 
You’re either building or taking delivery and selling.
I would fear the amount you’d receive as a claim against $65881.

Would be an easy sell since it’s complete,untouched, and requires no further ordering interaction with Vans.

Very sorry to see that. That deal is 2 thumbs down and at least 1 vomit emoji
 
GregInIdaho said:
What was your increase?
Click to expand...

~$1500 on the empennage and ~$3000 on the wing. They were showing a few fuselage kits ready for shipment. Wish I could've moved money over from wing to fuselage but that's not an option since the fuselage wasn't part of my original order that got hung up in all this.
 
QB Fuse Revision

Got my RV-10 QB Fuselage revision today and the increase in price was $8.5k, which basically just ate the deposit. I have already accepted the new order as we're finishing up the emp kit now. Looking forward to continuing the build.
 
It's pretty clear in looking at the Van's pricing over the years, (https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1731678&postcount=1) that kit prices were extraordinarily low for a very long period and probably were not priced in accordance to the market and that QB's were not priced commensurate with risk. It's unfortunate that this realization occurred suddenly and will be borne by current builders, but in a couple months, the bitterness will wear off and you'll likely be happy building what you realize is a terrific airplane at a reasonable cost.
 
good price

even with the increase, it seems like a fair price for a quick build.

I always thought the quick build kits were way under priced anyway.

Sorry it has happened to everyone, but in the grand scheme of things, it just means the value of the finished planes just went up; reminds me to increase my hull value....
 
Any LCP in the new deliveries?

I have RV-14 empennage, wings and QB fuse on order. I am inclined agree to the new price but not if the kits will be delivered with ANY LCP. Has Vans made a commitment not to ship out any more LCP? Any info on the topic from those who have received their email from VANs with the new terms?
thanks
Mark
 
stigaro said:
It's pretty clear in looking at the Van's pricing over the years, (https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1731678&postcount=1) that kit prices were extraordinarily low for a very long period and probably were not priced in accordance to the market and that QB's were not priced commensurate with risk. It's unfortunate that this realization occurred suddenly and will be borne by current builders, but in a couple months, the bitterness will wear off and you'll likely be happy building what you realize is a terrific airplane at a reasonable cost.
Click to expand...

I agree and just received my invitation to reorder the RV-10 EMP, FUSE and WINGs, which I happily did. Looking forward to getting the first kit and start building my plane!

Dean
RV-10 ordered
 
Bolgarm said:
I have RV-14 empennage, wings and QB fuse on order. I am inclined agree to the new price but not if the kits will be delivered with ANY LCP. Has Vans made a commitment not to ship out any more LCP? Any info on the topic from those who have received their email from VANs with the new terms?
thanks
Mark
Click to expand...

I received my 14A emp end of Aug 23. There were no LCP but a list of back ordered parts that were on the LCP list. I did get all BO parts in Nov.
 
ybarra15 said:
I had fully paid $65,881 for my RV-10 finish kit, QB wings, and QB fuselage. Today, their proposal to modify my order put the new price at $103,900. How about that 58% increase?!?!

I'm not inclined to pay that, but the good news is they claim to have all my items in stock. All I have to do is come up with an additional $38,018.
Click to expand...

Did that come with a confirmation of Non LCP parts or are you going to get clipped for more later to re-purchase some of the kit? That is a pretty steep increase and a good way off from the 32% they told us .
 
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Bolgarm said:
I have RV-14 empennage, wings and QB fuse on order. I am inclined agree to the new price but not if the kits will be delivered with ANY LCP. Has Vans made a commitment not to ship out any more LCP? Any info on the topic from those who have received their email from VANs with the new terms?
thanks
Mark
Click to expand...

I believe that Van's has stated that they have not been including any LCP in any kits since June 2023, other than the parts that have always been laser cut.
 
stigaro said:
I believe that Van's has stated that they have not been including any LCP in any kits since June 2023, other than the parts that have always been laser cut.
Click to expand...

I have to believe that a QB kit received in the last month or two had it's components shipped from vans well before 6/23.
 
Bolgarm said:
I have RV-14 empennage, wings and QB fuse on order. I am inclined agree to the new price but not if the kits will be delivered with ANY LCP. Has Vans made a commitment not to ship out any more LCP? Any info on the topic from those who have received their email from VANs with the new terms?
thanks
Mark
Click to expand...

All parts that were manufactured starting in early 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were historically. We are no longer shipping any of those laser-cut parts. A smaller number of non-dimpled parts that have always been laser cut and have never been an issue are still being manufactured that way.
Click to expand...

That quote was taken from an update on July 4th 2023. So they haven't been shipping LCP since at least then. Although some kits that were already crated by that date may have contained some LCP.
 
Vans has a large number of QB kits in house with LCP parts that it intends to "address".

There is no mention of what happens to these in any communication as of yet, and previous communication indicated they intended to ship them.

It takes over a year to produce a QB kit because of shipping times for containers, so the "LCP-free" QB kits do not currently exist. They may begin to exist sometime mid 2024 based on previously communicated timelines.
 
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lr172 said:
Did that come with a confirmation of Non LCP parts or are you going to get clipped for more later to re-purchase some of the kit? That is a pretty steep increase and a good way off from the 32% they told us .
Click to expand...

The 32% increase was based on the most recent pricing. Builders who made their purchases months/years before were quoted cheaper pricing, so their percentage boost is higher.
 
market

I am in shock how cheap some of the kits are going for. And I saw a complete 6 kit without finish for sale for just 9000 bucks. Granted, they are 9 and 7 kits mostly, but wow. A person could sit back and buy a project cheap, then buy a mid time engine, go steam and be in the air cheap.
KB

[reference to non-VAF site deleted per VAF rules;S.Buchanan]
 
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ybarra15 said:
All I have to do is come up with an additional $38,018.
Click to expand...

LOL.. is that all? That's about what it cost me to build my RV-4, have it professionally painted, and the engine professionally overhauled.

I think Van's lost their original vision trying to do everything for every imaginable potential builder. Is a high-performance sportplane for every single pilot out there really a good idea? When does a good thing become "too much of a good thing"?

As is often the case, the solution is not to do more, it's to do less. Van's needs to get out of the luxury prefab kit thing and start over again with simple, inexpensive kits that you have to roll up your sleeves and build yourself.
 
lyosha said:
Vans has a large number of QB kits in house with LCP parts that it intends to "address".

There is no mention of what happens to these in any communication as of yet, and previous communication indicated they intended to ship them.

It takes over a year to produce a QB kit because of shipping times for containers, so the "LCP-free" QB kits do not currently exist. They may begin to exist sometime mid 2024 based on previously communicated timelines.
Click to expand...

I am not sure I would pay $40K more for a QB kit I already paid for with an undefined price/timeline on when I might get the replacements for the LCP parts. WHile we can argue that some parts MAY be acceptable, some are required replacement. Is Vans telling you whether or not the kit has LCP parts in it? Given that they have upped the price 58%, which I speculate is a good deal more than the previous loss that was baked in, I would want to know what I am going to be charged for the replacements.

I get that those with deposits are going to see an increase, but here someone already paid in full and is getting hit with 58%. That hurts. This is not someone hoping to get a kit someday, but someone with a firm contract and a paid in full balance.
 
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ybarra15 said:
I had fully paid $65,881 for my RV-10 finish kit, QB wings, and QB fuselage. Today, their proposal to modify my order put the new price at $103,900. How about that 58% increase?!?!

I'm not inclined to pay that, but the good news is they claim to have all my items in stock. All I have to do is come up with an additional $38,018.
Click to expand...

I hope they give you the option to agree to the price but to fill the order in stages by kit. That's a huge increase and is not a level of cash that a lot of people have sitting around to deliver on short notice. How odd that there have been lengthy delays and now, suddenly, whole kits are in stock and ready for delivery!

Ask them how much of each kit will be on backorder ... I haven't had a kit past the empennage that was delivered complete on the first pass.
 
71459 said:
Van's needs to get out of the luxury prefab kit thing and start over again with simple, inexpensive kits that you have to roll up your sleeves and build yourself.
Click to expand...

I don't think the kit prices for standard build are out of line with what you get. That said, maybe they can sell folks more primitive kits at a discount without causing a bunch of extra non-recurring work for them.
 
Just listening to today's court hearing, at the start Van's attorney reported $6.7m in orders placed so far by customers invited to revise their orders.
 
For those of you who have received communications (e-mails) from Van's about renegotiation of orders, would you be able to share the e-mail address from which they were sent? I've been searching my inbox and haven't seen anything from any addresses I'd recoginize as being from Van's.

Just don't want to miss anything from them. I'm hoping my open backorders are going to be fulfilled.

edit: I just saw this message from Greg mentioning backorders... https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1733364&postcount=1
 
joeboisselle said:
I think a lot of people underestimate the fantastic feeling of accomplishment of taking a fairly inexpensive 4x12 sheet of aluminum and making it fly. Just who I am and not a jab at QB builders, but I can't imagine spending more to experience less. I've gotten more of a rush building wings and things from scratch than I ever did building the RV-4.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with that sentiment, but not all of us have the kind of time to dedicate to such an effort. As a "slow-build" RV-10 builder, I like to stick my nose up in the air at Quick-Build kit builders, and I'm sure scratch builders look down on RV-4 kit builders too, in a similar way.

The fact is, Van's has a significant customer base *because* we're not all capable of doing everything from plans, whether due to time or skill constraints.

If everyone had to be the equivalent of a Wright Brother to build an airplane, there would be far fewer "experimentals" flying.
 
1001001 said:
For those of you who have received communications (e-mails) from Van's about renegotiation of orders, would you be able to share the e-mail address from which they were sent? I've been searching my inbox and haven't seen anything from any addresses I'd recoginize as being from Van's.

Just don't want to miss anything from them. I'm hoping my open backorders are going to be fulfilled.

edit: I just saw this message from Greg mentioning backorders... https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1733364&postcount=1
Click to expand...

The modified order management is being handled on BMC’s side of things and looks like their servers.

[email protected] is where the email came from.
 
I have not received my email for my finishing kit. I'm not freaking out yet, but I am concerned. Seems like there's a lot of people getting "in line" ahead of me, and I ordered my finishing kit 16 months ago. The farther back "in line", the longer I have to wait. The longer I have to wait, the higher the likelihood they'll bump up prices again before shipping.

Do the emails give any indication of the expected crating/shipping date?
 
gotyoke said:
I have not received my email for my finishing kit. I'm not freaking out yet, but I am concerned. Seems like there's a lot of people getting "in line" ahead of me, and I ordered my finishing kit 16 months ago. The farther back "in line", the longer I have to wait. The longer I have to wait, the higher the likelihood they'll bump up prices again before shipping.

Do the emails give any indication of the expected crating/shipping date?
Click to expand...

They claimed they had 21 RV-14/14A finish kits ready to crate and ship.
 
51% increase

Technically my second post, as my first was soon deleted. ��But probably because someone else started a new thread about the AOPA article and Q&A with a lawyer video they posted. AOPA Pilot Protection law service qualifies for questions about your Van’s order.

Anyway, Van’s sent me an email to set up my account to change my contract.

FYI - [email protected]

They list my original order as $39,069.29 for Fuse & QB. My original contract paperwork from Dec 2022 shows $31,750. Okay. Moving on. The new price they list is $47,988.17. A $8,918.88 increase from their calculations and a $16,238.17 with mine. Up 51%. ��

I feel better knowing that others are sharing a similar experience.

Thanks!
 
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PHXWalker said:
The new price they list is $47,988.17. A $8,918.88 increase from their calculations and a $16,238.17 with mine. Up 51%. ��
Click to expand...

The fuse kits seem to have gone up by that much, at least for the ones I've looked at (10 and 14). But the finishing kits only went up 10% or so, which balances it out. That only helps if the finishing kits don't go up in price before we're ready to order them...
 
For those of you that had paid in full & now have to pay the increase… & have been told the kits are in stock, can you have them delivered COD? Or do you have to pay up & hope delivery will be expedited?
 
roadrunner20 said:
For those of you that had paid in full & now have to pay the increase… & have been told the kits are in stock, can you have them delivered COD? Or do you have to pay up & hope delivery will be expedited?
Click to expand...

The new contract says you have to pay the balance when you receive the notice the order will be crated.
 
I received the email invite yesterday, but when I opened it up, it only showed 1 of the 2 orders I placed and have money down. Curious if other experienced this as well?
Yesterday's email was for the RV10 fuselage kit I order in Aug, but I also have a QB wing kit on order from Feb. I assuming I will receive another email for the wing.

Scott
 
n6366k said:
I received the email invite yesterday, but when I opened it up, it only showed 1 of the 2 orders I placed and have money down. Curious if other experienced this as well?
Yesterday's email was for the RV10 fuselage kit I order in Aug, but I also have a QB wing kit on order from Feb. I assuming I will receive another email for the wing.

Scott
Click to expand...

I had the same experience. Email for RV-10 fuselage kit but nothing for my Finishing Kit. I’m still on the fence about what I’m going to do. Fight or flight.
-Bruce
 
PayUp or Lose It

Are these the only two choices being given to all the builders who are waiting for their kits?

If they are raising the prices 30-50% without offering to refund your money that sounds like a recipe for unhappy customers.

Existing planes will now become expensive.
 
Was right on the cusp of ordering an empennage kit, but now, backing away from it . . . and looking at a RANS S-21 Courier, with Titan 340.

I hope Vans makes it . . . and best of luck to all those that have kits coming and those that are in deep.
 
71459 said:
As is often the case, the solution is not to do more, it's to do less. Van's needs to get out of the luxury prefab kit thing and start over again with simple, inexpensive kits that you have to roll up your sleeves and build yourself.
Click to expand...
The kit price is 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of these "luxury kits" you're referring to. Talk to the avionics suppliers, engine suppliers, painters, upholsterers, and get them to go back to 1980's prices while you're at it, and maybe then you could build and fly for $40K.
 
Driftdown said:
Was right on the cusp of ordering an empennage kit, but now, backing away from it . . . and looking at a RANS S-21 Courier, with Titan 340.

I hope Vans makes it . . . and best of luck to all those that have kits coming and those that are in deep.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, a comparable SB RV-7 is almost exactly the same price as the Rans's S-21. ~$46k for all kits at the new pricing level. The new prices hardly seem out of line. Yes, the -10 or -14 are more expensive, but probably not comparable to the S-21.
 
The S-21 is closer to an RV14 in room and kit maturity than an RV7. RV10 is a totally different beast. The S-21 goes together incredibly fast almost to the point where it should be compared against the RV14 QB versus SB. They are two different mission aircraft though. On paper the RV is better in every way unless you really want a high wing. If you are itching to start right away on something probably best to skip over Van's for now until they get their mess together and get caught up.
 
Difficult Decisions

I understand the sentiment, the uncertainty. It reminds me of the adage "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". I know that is not exactly the case here, but it feels a bit that way. I will swallow hard, and find the money to keep building, one way or the other. I plan to except the new terms, as I currently understand them (have yet to get an email). I don't really have a choice if I want to finish building a plane. That said, I think Vans should allow COD for an additional fee. That would provide those on the fence, a means to protect themselves, and give vans the needed revenue. The COD fee could cover the carrying costs for holding the stock through delivery.

It's also very hard to send more money when there is yet to be a clear path for resolving the LCP issue, and what is going on with engine/prop/avionics deposits and contracts.

I am impacted by all of the above.:(
 
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Bankruptcy

It is my understanding that once a Chapter 13 filing has taken place the court then is determining the payments. I was under the impression that once one has filed for Chapter 13 protection, any deposits or payments made after the filing then take on a near certainty of getting that money back or the product ordered. This is done by assuring that these obligations are met FIRST, before any other claims if a Chapter 13 evolves into Chapter 7 liquidation.
I ran a company for a much bigger corporation for several years and we had very strict credit terms, aggressively followed but the company would accept without hesitation an order from another which was in Chapter 13.
Ed
 
Ed,

What you are saying may be true, but you will still have to deal with the courts in the chapter 7 senario. You may be higher in the pecking order to recover your money, but...

To use another adage, "once bitten, twice shy".
 
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