Got Ramp Checked!

When we arrived back at our small town home airport after attending the Olney, Texas Air Tractor Fly-in a couple of weekends ago, we were met by an FAA employee who proceeded to give me my first ramp check.

I wasn't too worried, as I was pretty certain I had the required paperwork aboard the aircraft. Of course I was asked for the airworthiness certificate and registration as well as weight and balance data. I was a little taken back when he asked to see the date for the weight and balance data, though. In retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have been, as 30 years ago I was taught that it must be current.

I had re-weighed the airplane after it was painted and I'd updated the POH and luckily the "MS Word" software "date field" automatically updated on every page. This is something you may want to check to ensure is current on your POH or whatever weight and balance data you carry.

I was asked if I carried my maintenance and pilot logbooks on board and I replied that I did not. It was true, as I had been advised not to carry them just for this reason. (I don't believe he would have found anything amiss if I had them with me).

I was not asked to see if I had current sectionals or databases or anything along those lines. I did have to present my pilot's certificate and current medical. And he asked for my airplane?s Hobb's meter time and serial number. Overall, it was a fairly painless 10 minute process. Both of us were courteous. I just thought I'd share this experience in case anyone was wondering what the ramp check process was like.

Was he as courteous as well when you asked to see his credentials?

Thanks for the report, and would like to ask those who have been ramp checked to weigh in with reports...

I know the regs allow it, but it bugs me...

JDRhodes said:

I know the regs allow it, but it bugs me...

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Yah, it would bug me too, but it's not that "the regs allow it", but that it is your right to do so. Something on the order of: "Sir, may I respectfully request a peek at your credentials?"

Way back when, I neglected to look at an alleged "Flight Instructor"s creds, and turned out he was not one at all. Gave me a nice lesson tho, in more ways than one...

My ramp check

A number of years ago I was ramp-checked at a fly-in at Lubbock Texas, along with everyone else who flew in. Mine went about like Joe's; no problem. FAA policy at the time was that there was not supposed to be mass ramp checks at fly-ins.

Well, it did teach me one thing. Don't ever again go to an otherwise very pleasant fly-in breakfast at Lubbock International.

same for me

I was ramp checked at 11pm at my home airport after returning from a day trip with my girlfriend 4 years ago (tower was closed for the night). I was a little surprised by 2 men approaching the plane at night before I was even out of it yet. They said "We're from the FAA, and we would like to do a ramp check." I said, almost joking, "How do I know you guys are really from the FAA?" They whipped out their credentials, so they were definitely legit.

I got nervous and asked if I had busted Class B or something, and they gave a very generic response "nope... we're just here to make sure that everybody that's up there (pointing to the sky) is supposed to be up there."

One guy asked for the typical stuff (W&B, Cert, A/W) while the other walked around the airplane. I never even got out of the cockpit.

After about 10 minutes, the whole thing was over. I had to sign their "log", and they left. Pretty painless.

I survived a couple of them many years ago without incident. However, the whole concept still galls me. Yeah, yeah ... I know the whole thing about "flying being a privilege, not a right", but cops can't pull you over while driving just to see if you have a driver's license.

I have a gut feeling that it's just going to get worse in time ...

The last time I was ramp checked was changing the nose wheel on a MD-80. The FAA guy said "hey, you got a procedure for that tire change". I said sure, pulled up a crumpled sheet of paper with the correct M.M. page. The whole time the captain was in the plane holding the tiller hard left (trick for changing the tire without a jack, but not in the manual). He never asked for my A&P, we shot the breeze a bit. No problems. I gave the captain a pat on the back for not flinching with the tiller. He knew what was happening. I doubt I'd gotten in any trouble if he asked where my jack was. But who knows. As long as you are respectful (whether you feel they deserve it or not), I don't think there's much to worry about.

Most of the FAA inspectors I have met are pretty descent. Sounds like you had a good one as well. Still makes your heart skip a beat though.

I got ramped checked once...

My wife's uncle was with the FAA before he retired. He was visiting from OK and couldn't wait to see the RV and as soon as he did, he ramp checked me. Does a ramp check by a retired FAA inspector count?

His back was hurting so he never did get to go for a ride but promised to go up after I get it back in the air.

After we returned home he called to say he was stunned at how well the plane climbed with me and my wife onboard and the little O-290 up front (and I wasn't even doing a max rate climb).

There seems to be an increasing amount of ramp checks recently - they have occurred twice in the last several months at Santa Ynez, CA (IZA), which is untowered and relatively small. Be prepared and be courteous.

erich

Rights vs Privilege

N8RV said:

I survived a couple of them many years ago without incident. However, the whole concept still galls me. Yeah, yeah ... I know the whole thing about "flying being a privilege, not a right", but cops can't pull you over while driving just to see if you have a driver's license.

I have a gut feeling that it's just going to get worse in time ...

Click to expand...

I would think I have a RIGHT to attempt to become a pilot. Yes there are a lot of conditions and requirements to become a pilot and exercising that right, and not everyone qualifies for what ever reason, but it's still a right to try.

N8RV said:

I survived a couple of them many years ago without incident. However, the whole concept still galls me. Yeah, yeah ... I know the whole thing about "flying being a privilege, not a right", but cops can't pull you over while driving just to see if you have a driver's license.

I have a gut feeling that it's just going to get worse in time ...

Click to expand...

You are correct about the police can't just pull you over while driving just to see if you have a driver's license. I'm guessing the FAA would never ask a pilot to land his/her plane just to do a ramp check either. Here in South carolina Law Enforcement doesn't think twice about setting up a random license check. They check D/L, registration and, in most cases, insurance. I have nothing to hide from them so I don't let it bother me and I feel sort of proud that I can, in fact, produce the documents they're asking for. Only a couple of minutes and I'm on my way without incident.

I have never been involved in a wreck where the other driver was uninsured or had no D/L but I know people that have - what a nightmare.

If these checks keep people from flying that shouldn't be, then bring it on. I'll give the FAA my 10 minutes - no problem.

N8RV said:

I survived a couple of them many years ago without incident. However, the whole concept still galls me. Yeah, yeah ... I know the whole thing about "flying being a privilege, not a right", but cops can't pull you over while driving just to see if you have a driver's license.

I have a gut feeling that it's just going to get worse in time ...

Click to expand...

Actually, maybe...

In Texas (don't know about other states) they do periodic roadblocks and stop EVERY vehicle going through, checking for EtOH use, insurance, and drivers license.

Not really germane to the conversation at hand though. I was ramp checked once as a student pilot at ADS, was short and sweet, non-issue.

OK, if you don't like my analogy, I'll tighten it a bit ...

You're getting gas in your car, just standing there as the pump chugs along, using up your paycheck. A state cop, getting a cup of coffee (I did NOT say "a doughnut"), wanders over while you're watching the dollar signs tick over and says, "Good morning. May I see your driver's license?"

Now, if he makes up a good excuse -- you or your vehicle just happen to fit the description of a wanted felon in the area -- he can ask. But he has to have a legitimate reason to check. Otherwise, it's just harassment.

Is that a more appropriate analogy?

Regardless, they have the right -- but it still stinks, IMO.

I have *such* a problem with the "if you have nothing to hide" line...

If you have nothing to hide in your car, why not let the cops open the trunk and glove box and search it, even with no probable cause?

If you have nothing to hide on your person, how about agreeing to being patted down, again without probable cause (and yes, the useless TSA stuff sticks in my craw, too).

If you have nothing to hide in your house, would it be okay for cops to randomly pick your house and come in and search it?

And then the times when it DOES matter, like the THREE times I've been hit by uninsured drivers, the cops were ZERO help. In one case the insurance paperwork was so clearly a fraud a child could have seen it, but they did nothing. In the latest one, the other party slammed into my (stopped) car from behind and did 6K worth of damage...and didn't even get a ticket. And of course, wasn't insured (a long story).

But hey, if you have nothing to hide, why not let them get in your cockpit, take off the cowling and poke around, maybe remove some inspection panels and floorboards and really do a good search of your plane?

(BTW, California has the "safety checks", too, where they stop random cars at a checkpoint and ask for DL, etc. I consider them just as abusive as a non-probable-cause search).

Been there done that. They were polite. But don't let the smiling faces fool you. Being excessively open or sharing more than what is necessary is naive.

I didn't ask for the ID, but a professional should already have it displayed, offer it up freely or have zero problem showing you upon request. And I will ask next time.

Caveman said:

When we arrived back at our small town home airport after attending the Olney, Texas Air Tractor Fly-in a couple of weekends ago, we were met by an FAA employee who proceeded to give me my first ramp check.

.

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I'm really surprised that they were out working on a Saturday!

But, ya never know.

Best,

N8RV said:

OK, if you don't like my analogy, I'll tighten it a bit ...

You're getting gas in your car, just standing there as the pump chugs along, using up your paycheck. A state cop, getting a cup of coffee (I did NOT say "a doughnut"), wanders over while you're watching the dollar signs tick over and says, "Good morning. May I see your driver's license?"

Now, if he makes up a good excuse -- you or your vehicle just happen to fit the description of a wanted felon in the area -- he can ask. But he has to have a legitimate reason to check. Otherwise, it's just harassment.

Is that a more appropriate analogy?

Regardless, they have the right -- but it still stinks, IMO.

Click to expand...

Yes, better analogy. In my case, I would cooperate as long as things were cordial, but would quickly tell the cop that no, he has no right to see my drivers license because I'm not driving. I have the legal requirement to identify myself to law enforcement at any time, and I'll do that, but I'm under no legal compunction to show my drivers license UNLESS I'm actually driving. Is that going to make me a target as soon as I get into my pickup and drive off? You bet - but I know what I'm buying into when I smart off like that, and take it as it comes.

As for the aircraft, anyone can be fueling/inspecting/maintaining/washing the aircraft, and there is no legal requirement to be a licensed pilot to do any of those things. What could they do in that case? When I got ramp-checked as a student at ADS years ago, I had landed about 20 minutes earlier, had been inside paying for fuel, and then went back to the aircraft to retrieve a headset before I drove into town for lunch. I had been on the ground for 20 minutes (flight was clearly over) and it would be an hour before the next intended flight (which he was unaware of in any case) - I would argue that I was under no legal compunction to comply with the ramp check at that point, as I did not intend to immediately take flight. That would not have been a wise fight to pick in my particular scenario (student), but I still believe I would have been right.

Taken to the (perhaps illogical) extreme, what is to stop the FAA from walking out on the GA flightline, picking a parked aircraft, looking up the tail number, calling the registered owner, and having them come to the airport for a ramp check? Again - no immediate flight was intended - where do we draw the line?

Someone tell me where in the regs it says you can't close your airplane and walk away?

Is it Really So Bad?

I've been ramp checked once in 39 years. Doubt if anyone has been checked more than a couple of times unless they're based at a field where a FSDO is located. Let's face it, while they can check out flight schools for their maint. and record keeping, there's very little they can do to ensure that GA pilots are compliant. Can't check if your plane has been annualed, your pitot/static or encoder are up to date, if you've had a BFR, IPC, or even meet daytime and nighttime currency requirements. Heck, you could show up with a plane load of people having just made your first flight in 20 years - and they have no way of knowing (as long as you've got a current medical in your possession). Think this stuff doesn't happen? How about the guys who crash, and the investigation shows they haven't had a medical in "x" years. Happens far too often. If their meager effort makes the sky just a little safer, and inconveniences me for 10 minutes once every 39 years, I'm all for it.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP

Mine wasn't too bad

About ten years ago, and the thing that surprised me was the emphasis on the compass card. I had the old fashioned owner's manual for the factory plane, and showed on the chart how I computed the weight and balance, and that it would fall into the allowable limit. I was most worried about the radio station license that I'm still not sure of whether I need! Nothing said about it, though, and nothing volunteered.
Our are FSDO have been mostly very nice, with 2 experimental exhibition aircraft I worked with them on. They always look for the "experimental" sign and the compass correction card.
Put me down as one of those people that hates being stopped while doing nothing wrong, while, at the time, waiting for a half hour for FSS info on the phone was the norm. I know they have a job to do, and like I said, have been mostly good guys. P.S. I watched an out of town FAA guy begin to bust someone for flying a close-in pattern, like I have done, that you could actually reach the airport with in the event of an engine outage. So, you just don't know what kind of mood the guy might be in!

Flying Scotsman said:

I have *such* a problem with the "if you have nothing to hide" line...

If you have nothing to hide in your car, why not let the cops open the trunk and glove box and search it, even with no probable cause?

If you have nothing to hide on your person, how about agreeing to being patted down, again without probable cause (and yes, the useless TSA stuff sticks in my craw, too).

If you have nothing to hide in your house, would it be okay for cops to randomly pick your house and come in and search it?

And then the times when it DOES matter, like the THREE times I've been hit by uninsured drivers, the cops were ZERO help. In one case the insurance paperwork was so clearly a fraud a child could have seen it, but they did nothing. In the latest one, the other party slammed into my (stopped) car from behind and did 6K worth of damage...and didn't even get a ticket. And of course, wasn't insured (a long story).

But hey, if you have nothing to hide, why not let them get in your cockpit, take off the cowling and poke around, maybe remove some inspection panels and floorboards and really do a good search of your plane?

(BTW, California has the "safety checks", too, where they stop random cars at a checkpoint and ask for DL, etc. I consider them just as abusive as a non-probable-cause search).

Click to expand...

Point taken. I guess it's the same thing that happens when we persue the enjoyment of all the other freedoms that we are supposed to have. One knucklehead comes along and does something stupid and then there are all sorts of laws made forcing the rest of us to jump through hoops because of the one.

Being a retired Police Officer that pushed a scout car around for over 28 years,,,I can honestly say that I have a real problem with these warrant-less exploratory "Fishing Expeditions" the FAA labels as ramp checks. Its one thing if someone from the FAA has probable cause to suspect an infraction is, or has taken place and investigate further,,,,but to just randomly walk the ramp picking out a plane that is parked,,,,locating the owner or pilot wherever he/she may be and perform a shakedown when they never even seen the person personally fly the plane is a bunch of you know what! Yeah I know that some states actually allow these road blocks that police set up to check everyone who passes through,,,but that kind of stuff was not tolerated in the city I worked for.

Cops stop people walking all the time and stop them to find out what they're doing there.

Curious...would a weight and balance in the Garmin 496 count?
-Jim

Caveman said:

\And he asked for my airplane?s Hobb's meter time and serial number. Overall, it was a fairly painless 10 minute process. Both of us were courteous. I just thought I'd share this experience in case anyone was wondering what the ramp check process was like.

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what is the point of asking for your hobbs time? sounds like they are trying to build a database of how often certain planes fly. i don't really see how that is their business. and the airplane serial number??

airguy said:

...... EtOH

Not really germane to the conversation at hand though. I was ramp checked once as a student pilot at ADS, was short and sweet, non-issue.

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what is EtOH?

ethanol without taxes?

Bob Collins said:

Cops stop people walking all the time and stop them to find out what they're doing there.

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yeah and now that terry is case law the only thing you have to do is show id and ask "am i free to go" and they either better have probable cause or let you walk away.

rocketbob said:

Someone tell me where in the regs it says you can't close your airplane and walk away?

Click to expand...

You can and I did, essentially, in my situation. They moved on and I flew later.

This is what...

...the Inspectors should be following....

As always, the FAA has a document for everything....

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v06 surveillance/chapter 01/06_001_004.pdf

This bit may be an out if you are departing...

3) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue.

If you are arriving, the "I've got an appointment I'm late for - I'll bring you the paperwork you request" might also work...

There is a nice check list on page 11 of the document you might want to check to see if you would pass.

The "VOR check" item is interesting, do I need that if I am VFR only? And, if not, do I have to placard the VOR Indicator?


The glider guys on-line in AZ were referencing a comment made by the Scottsdale FSDO that they have been tasked with reviewing the operating limitations of all experimental gliders over the next three years.

I don't know if this is a glider thing, or it's an Experimental thing...

rocketbob said:

Someone tell me where in the regs it says you can't close your airplane and walk away?

Click to expand...

In the 90's, I was heavily involved in flying hot air balloons. After one flight, I landed next to a highway and was waiting for my chase crew to show up. Of course it was not uncommon for vehicles to stop and chat, but when a plain white car with US Gov't plates stopped, I got that distinct sinking feeling. The guy gets out of the car and wanders over to chat. He then informs me that he is with the FAA, and wants to give me a ramp (dirt?) check. He was not wearing any credentials, and I asked for them. He went back to his car, and I fired the burner up and was airborne by the time he got out of his car.
He got back in his car, and that was the end of that!

Flflyer said:

Put me down as one of those people that hates being stopped while doing nothing wrong, !

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And put me down as one of those people that hates being stopped specially when I am doing some thing wrong

jetjok said:

In the 90's, I was heavily involved in flying hot air balloons. After one flight, I landed next to a highway and was waiting for my chase crew to show up. Of course it was not uncommon for vehicles to stop and chat, but when a plain white car with US Gov't plates stopped, I got that distinct sinking feeling. The guy gets out of the car and wanders over to chat. He then informs me that he is with the FAA, and wants to give me a ramp (dirt?) check. He was not wearing any credentials, and I asked for them. He went back to his car, and I fired the burner up and was airborne by the time he got out of his car.
He got back in his car, and that was the end of that!

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Thats awsome, I would have loved to see the look on his face as you started your climb.
-david

Thanks Gil!

az_gila said:

...the Inspectors should be following....

As always, the FAA has a document for everything....

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v06 surveillance/chapter 01/06_001_004.pdf

Click to expand...

Gil, that is some interesting reading. To answer some of the questions that others have posted about:
1. I was not asked for a radio license and have been told by CFI's that I don't need one if flying in the U.S. As a matter of fact I've been told that they don't check for them in Canada or the Bahamas either. I know I was not checked when I've flown to Canada a couple of times. Now after reading the document, I am not so sure?
2. I was not asked to produce my operating limitations although I did have them on board.
3. The FAA inspector did ask for my driver's license, which I would expect, since a photo I.D. is now required, (by the TSA as I understand it).
4. I did not ask the inspector for his I.D. because it never crossed my mind. Probably because I knew him previously, before he worked for the FAA and knew he went to work for them.
5. He did use a checklist but I'm not sure it was the one in your document. I think his was a multi-part carbon copy type document. I was asked to sign it.
6. The inspector didn't ask to check my ELT battery date and we'd have had to unpack the baggage compartment and pull an inspection cover to do it.
7. I'm surprised the guideline document does mention checking navigation charts. I do not think they are required to be current for part 91 VFR operations.
8. I'm not sure why he asked for my Hobb's time, but he did enter it on the form he used. There was a specific place to enter it. I suspect it might be used to cross check log book entries if I would have produced them and if there would have been obvious discrepencies like not enough time for phase 1 to have been flown off and I was carrying a passenger?
9. He did not check for a compass card although I had one.
10. In retrospect, I also wonder what would have happened if I would have tried to use my AFS weight and balance page for documentation and would have only had a magnetometer, (no card), instead of both it and a compass?

I'm the kind of guy who does attempt to stay within the regs and although it may not have been too smart, I felt fairly comfortable that I could pass this check and that it would help prepare me for being ramp checked at an unfamiliar airport. I feel that FAA guys are for the most part just good people just trying to do their job and truly care about safety. I even had the FAA, (not a DAR) do my airworthiness certification inspection. Hey, maybe that's why he didn't check my airframe over for airworthiness very close. I think the airworthiness inspector was this guy's boss. He would have gotten in trouble if he flunked me.

I was one of at least 3 pilots that got checked that day and one was a CFI who told me that he was dinged for not having the proper manual in his 152. I guess they are serial number specific and his was for a different range of numbers.

Oh, and yes this did happen on a Saturday.

Flying Scotsman said:

I have *such* a problem with the "if you have nothing to hide" line...

Click to expand...

I agree. To extend that logic, if the police / FAA / <name your governmental entity> have nothing to hide, they they wouldn't mind continuous video surveillance of them that is reviewed by an independent group of citizens or discoverable via FOIA. After all, they have nothing to hide, right?

Back on topic ...

Ramp checks are allowed the FARs, and the cooperation that pilots must give the FAA is clearly spelled out as well. Be polite, comply with the requirements, but do not offer anything further unless you feel it is in your best interest.

The rules exist as a way for both the regulated and regulating parties to work together. Whether you like the rules or not, you either need to play by them or expect problems. Doesn't matter whether you're a pilot of a fed - play by the rules.

TODR

Paper certificates

Heads up gents,

14 CFR Part 61.19, Duration of Pilot and Instructor Certificates, states that ?the holder of a paper pilot certificate issued under this part may not exercise the privileges of that certificate after March 31, 2010.?

You definently don't want to get caught with your......well you know, at Sun-n-fun. I remember the new one being just 2 bucks at http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/. I get ramp checked on a regular basis as a 121 pilot and can say that most ASI's are polite and professional, and are "just doing their job". The FAA is a bureaucracy that dots all I's, so reciprocating courtesy and having proper paper work should get you on your way without any trouble.

See you at Sun-n-fun

Best not to "lock up and walk away..."

From personal experience, it is not an FAA employees favorite thing to do ramp checks. There is a monthly/quarterly requirement to perform X amount of ramp checks and yes, generally, they hate doing them too. They are usually pilots too and feel your pain. But you would be surprised and scared to know how out of reg/illegal/criminal some planes/pilots are out there and what is found.

On the idea of locking up and walking away, bad plan. Your N number was recorded and soon you will receive a letter that invites you to a meeting at the FSDO to discuss your actions on that day and your legal responsibilities. Not your plane? The registered owner will be happy to provide the pilot in questions name on that date and time! If ignored, the legal stuff will be coming and the cost of non-compliance with CFR14 is ugly, very ugly. You will lose in the long run. I do find it interesting the people who chose this route thinking they will get away with it...you're on 'the list' and will be found and processed! And of course the people that lawyer up are always amusing....you will run out of money before the FAA does! You may win 'the case' but at what cost and time??? And the NTSB and the TSA may get involved too. TSA has bigger, meaner teeth!

The best plan is exactly what most have been suggesting here, be courteous, if not already shown, ask for his/her ID, they must have it with them!!! and have your stuff in order, it's just not that tough! We're pilots, we shoud be able to follow simple rules. And while there are horror stories (usually not first person...) generally it is a little inconvinience you can later tell your friends about, and it usually goes like this, "No big deal!"

Talk to your buds over seas, especially Europe, we have no tough rules compared to them.

Lastly, Part 91 and especially Experimental sport aircraft are NOT the primary emphasis of the FAA and not the expertise (at all) of most inspectors. You most likely will be the expert on your plane and some of their requests/requirements will be from a generic ramp check checklist that may be only marginally applicable to your aircraft...date of W & B comes to mind. Big deal in heavy/complex aircraft, not so much our RVs, unless of course you've done a major obvious change ie, fixed to constant speed prop, all new panel on an otherwise older aircraft, etc. If he/she asks for something that seems to be left field, say so. You may get a thanks for the on ramp education! Again, ops inspectors are pilots and usually do like airplanes. Really! And try to answer simple questions with simple short answers. You'd be surprised how some pilots offer up L-O-N-G explanations while effectively digging themselves into a hole they eventually fall into!

Don't ask how I know this stuff!

Joe wrote : I was a little taken back when he asked to see the date for the weight and balance data, though. In retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have been, as 30 years ago I was taught that it must be current.

So, I'm curious why he would ask for the date for the weight and balance. Maybe that was just his way of asking to see the w&B. Or, unless there might be some future access to the aircraft logs and a determination made if the w&B was properly current at the time of the ramp check.

I appreciate these stories because it reminds me to check everything the next time I'm at the plane. I know it's all ok, but it doesn't hurt to check it one more time!

Danny7 said:

what is EtOH?

ethanol without taxes?

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Etoh is alcohol....

Had a Fed once tell me that he was out doing ramp checks and happened upon an old guy in a rag tag Taylorcraft.

There were no documents in the aircraft nor on the pilot. Not even a driver's license. The old guy admitted that he hadn't had a medical or BFR in decades. Didn't even seem to know what a BFR was. He said that he did all of his maintenance himself, but had no records, and no A&P license.

The Fed told the guy to get his personal belongings out of the aircraft and then to meet him in the terminal. The Fed was going to call a local sheriff to impound the aircraft. After making the call, and not seeing the old guy, the Fed walked out to watch the aircraft take off wagging its wings. All that was left was a puddle of oil on the ramp. A check of the N number showed that the original issuance of the number had been inactive since the late 50's and that the N number had been reissued to another aircraft.

Ramp Check - at the border

Got 'ramp checked' at the Canadian border by four of Canada's best fifteen years ago. Forty five year old guy, four young kids, wife - car packed as we were going thru Michigan on the way to Niagara Falls on vacation. They removed all things that were not on the car when I purchased it! They were non communicative and seemed to be angry. Wouldn't talk to me so I shut up. About an hour later they were 'finished'. I asked how they 'chose' me and one guy said "you are from California and we know that all people from California have guns". Awesome. Took me about 20 minutes to re-pack the car.

Compared to this, I don't think that a ramp check would be so bad.

One time - too many

A few years ago I was ramp checked at ~6:30 am at the El Monte, California airport because of a complaint made to the FAA about my approach to El Monte by an employee of a telephone company located across the street just north east of runway 19. Every morning for 15 years on VMC days I would cross mid field and do a short approach right traffic to 19. I showed the FAA man my JPL badge and told him I was on my way to work. He completed the check of aircraft and pilot documents very quickly and I was on my way. He told me of the complaint and he had just watched my approach. He assured me that I had done nothing wrong but requested that I extend the downwind leg a little to stop this guy's complaining.

Sometimes it is your fellow citizens that turn you in and the FAA has to look into it even if the complainer has no real grounds for a complaint.

Bob Axsom

Our EAA chapter had a poker run a while back and everyone was ramp checked at one stop on the run (Covington, GA). Let's just say that particular inspector has a bad reputation around here. But hey, I guess he made his quota for the month in one stop.

Ramp checked yesterday at Okeechobee

I was ramp checked yesterday at Okeechobee, FL. This was being done by customs/ TSA agents and not the FAA. The agents were in a black unmarked SUV and jumped out with a badge and gun (holstered).

They asked for my pilot certificate, drivers license, registration, medical. They also asked for my passengers drivers license I'm under 40 and I only require a medical every 5 years. They didn't know that and claimed my medical was expired. They had to call around for clarification. They also asked a few open ended questions about the plane, what it is used for, etc. It took a few minutes to clear it up while I refueled. Didn't take too long maybe 20 minutes but no fun at all!

I am surprised at the number of people who have been ramp checked. Several years ago when this subject came up very few had ever been ramp checked so it appears , at least to me, the FAA has ramped (no pun intended) their ramp check efforts.

Below is an excerpt from a publication from several years ago that I may have posted before.

WHAT ARE YOUR RAMP RIGHTS
by John Scott Hoff and Theodore J. Young


While the joys and excitement of general aviation abound, one
of the more stressful aspects is the possibility of a random
ramp check. This may be conducted by the FAA or any peace officer.
The key to survival of one of these inpsections is a clear under-
standing of your rights as a pilot and a pre-established idea of
what to do when you are targeted for a ramp check. What are your
"Ramp Rights"?
First, FAA guidelines and authority to conduct ramp checks
come primarily in 14 CFR 61.3(h) "Inpsection of certificate,"
which states that "each person who holds a pilot certificate,
flight instructor certificate, medical certificate, authorization
or license required by this part shall present it for inspection
upon the request of the Administrator, an authorized representative
of the National Transportation Safety Board, or any Federal, State
or local law enforcement officer." In addition, 14 CFR 61.51(d)
states that "A pilot must present his logbook (or other record
required by this section) for inspection upon reasonable request
by the Administrator, an authorized representative of the NTSB,
or any State or local law enforcement officer." Unlike licenses,
however, pilots need not have their logbooks on their person or
personal possession and, thus, these need not be presented on the
spot.
Take these CFR's seriously, as a failure or refusal to produce
the required documents will probably result in a certificate
suspension. The National Transportation Safety Board has held in
Administrator v. Weinstein, NTSB Order No. EA-3675 (1992) and
echoed in Administrator v. Jones, NTSB Order No. EA-3796 (1993)
that the Administrator has an "absolute right" to review a pilot's
logbook so long as the request is reasonable in the sense that
compliance presents no undue or inappropriate burden.
With the above in mind, keep the following checklist in a
convenient place in case you need it in a hurry>
1. ATTITUDE: First, DON'T PANIC! Be as polite and cooperative as
possible. It will be worth it to keep yourself in the air, and the FAA looking
elsewhere for trouble with minimum delay. Belligerence won't help.
2. AUTHORITY OF REQUESTOR: Ask the investigator to display his/her
FAA identification when you are approached and copy the information
on it. Remember, the investigator does not have to be in uniform, so
his/her ID may be the only way to show the authority to ramp-check you.
3. WITNESSES: If at all possible, have one or two witnesses present
to listen and to observe the investigator, in case there is some
dispute in the future about what actually occurred during the ramp
check.
4. INQUIRE: Unless the information is volunteered, ask the inves-
tigator exactly what the purpose of the ramp check will be and what
he is going to do during the ramp check.
5. NO WARRANT NECESSARY: Keep in mind that an inspector does not
have to have a warrant to inspect you, but he must observe that \
you are the pilot of the aircraft. There is no "Miranda Warning."
These proceedings are civil in nature.
6. SHUT UP: If questioned, be willing to cooperate with the
basics: give your name, acknowledge that you are the pilot and
show the required documents. But remember, you do not have to
answer any questions. Merely produce the documents they are
authorized to request. You need do no more. Hoof and mouth
disease has hanged many a good airman.
7. AIRCRAFT INSPECTION NOT INCLUDED: The investigator does not
have the right to touch or board your aircraft. If (s)he is
about to, courteously ask him/her to refrain.
8. NO RETALIATION: If you feel you are being harassed, treated
discourteously, or discriminated against, keep your cool and
return courtesy and basic minimum cooperativeness. After the ramp
check, have both yourself and your witnesses immediately and
independently document what happened. Then seek legal advice to
protest the inspector's actions. The inspector must be reason-
able, and you should be caused no undue or inappropriate burden.
9. NO LOSS OF LICENSE CUSTODY: The inspector has no right to
confiscate or retain your license. They only have a right to
"inspect." You need not give up your certificate.
10. CONTINUED AIRCRAFT OPERATION: Finally, do not allow the
inspector to "ground" you or your aircraft based on a ramp check.
Take into account the inspector's advice in this matter, but
the final decision is yours.
That's it: These are your "Ramp Rights." All pilots
should be aware of their responsibilities and obligations, as
well as their rights. Every airman should be aware of the
limits to a ramp check as a part of safe aircraft operation.
About the authors: John Scott Hoff is a trial attorney in the
law firm of John Scott Hoff, P.C. Hoff began his career as a
trial attorney in the Office of the Chief Counsel of the Federal
Aviaiton Administration. Mr Hoff entered into his current
practice following his tenure at the FAA. He is a colonel in
the United States Air Force Reserve, a CFI and he holds a
Commercial Pilot's license for both single and multiple engine
aircraft. Theodore J. Young was commissioned an officer in the
U.S. Air Force shortly after receiving a B.A. in political
science-prelaw from the University of Central Florida in 1987.

I got ramp checked just washing my plane one time. The Faa guy saw me driving the plane up to the FBO where the water hose was and started the check. When he asked if my medical was a copy I replied yes it was because my wife had a habit of washing my billfold and I didn't want to ruin the original. He made a big deal out of it but finally allowed me to drive 20 miles to get the original and bring it back to him in order to not get written up. Just another small point, don't carry a copy of your medical.

rv9aviator said:

I got ramp checked just washing my plane one time. The Faa guy saw me driving the plane up to the FBO where the water hose was and started the check. When he asked if my medical was a copy I replied yes it was because my wife had a habit of washing my billfold and I didn't want to ruin the original. He made a big deal out of it but finally allowed me to drive 20 miles to get the original and bring it back to him in order to not get written up. Just another small point, don't carry a copy of your medical.

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That's totally unreasonable. This is what gives many of these people their reputation.

On the other point of stepped up checks. My experience was in 1999. Ironic in that it was at a smaller airport in another part of town. I "reside" at a large airport with the FSDO on the field. Never seen a safety inspector on that field.

N395V said:

WHAT ARE YOUR RAMP RIGHTS
by John Scott Hoff and Theodore J. Young


10. CONTINUED AIRCRAFT OPERATION: Finally, do not allow the
inspector to "ground" you or your aircraft based on a ramp check.
Take into account the inspector's advice in this matter, but
the final decision is yours.
That's it: These are your "Ramp Rights."

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This seems to conflict with Gil's posted document, Milt. I wonder which is correct?

Also, once you hand them your license and they start to walk away with it, then what? You are effectively grounded unless you start an altercation or until an attorney gets it back for you.

BTW, I don't believe that in my case I was specifically targeted for something I did wrong. As I stated I was not the only pilot checked that day.

azrv6 wrote" "Joe wrote : I was a little taken back when he asked to see the date for the weight and balance data, though. In retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have been, as 30 years ago I was taught that it must be current.

So, I'm curious why he would ask for the date for the weight and balance. Maybe that was just his way of asking to see the w&B. Or, unless there might be some future access to the aircraft logs and a determination made if the w&B was properly current at the time of the ramp check."

I suspect the latter is correct, but I'm guessing.

Thanks for the heads up on the new Format...

Maxrate said:

Heads up gents,

14 CFR Part 61.19, Duration of Pilot and Instructor Certificates, states that ?the holder of a paper pilot certificate issued under this part may not exercise the privileges of that certificate after March 31, 2010.?

You definently don't want to get caught with your......well you know, at Sun-n-fun. I remember the new one being just 2 bucks at http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/. I get ramp checked on a regular basis as a 121 pilot and can say that most ASI's are polite and professional, and are "just doing their job". The FAA is a bureaucracy that dots all I's, so reciprocating courtesy and having proper paper work should get you on your way without any trouble.

See you at Sun-n-fun

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I went online and updated all my Airman Certificates and new ones are on the way. (2 weeks). So, thanks for the link.

I did get ramped checked at Whiteman Airport (next to Burbank) after I taxied a converted DC-3 to the gas pump. (no flight intended and I did not have a Type Rating in this aircraft) No paperwork was in the aircraft but after I showed the FAA man my A and P Certificate and explained I was just getting fuel and we intended to change out the left engine and rework several systems over a 4 month period at a maintenance hanger up field, he backed off. I mentioned that this DC-3 was formerly owned by actor Cary Grant and had a piano inside, he asked for a tour. Nice guy.

Bob

E. D. Eliot said:

. . . I asked how they 'chose' me and one guy said "you are from California and we know that all people from California have guns". . .

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You get the same response if you are from Alabama. And yes, it is a pretty good assumption.