Add To: Experimental Aircraft Rules

Thanks Boomer for the post about experimental aircraft rules. I am learning quit a bit on this site. I am new to the experimental airplane world and am looking forward to soon get in an RV and sell my slug of a Cessna.

I have a few questions about experimental airplane flight restrictions that maybe some people can help me with. I remember when I received my Pilot's Certificate and all the long studying for the written test reading that experimental airplanes are restricted from flight in populated areas, however I see them flying in to KHWD (Hayward Airport, Bay Area Calif.) quit often where I keep my Cessna 172. What kind of restrictions may I run into if I get an RV? Can I still fly up the coast line and call Nor Cal for a sqwauk code and get clearance to fly over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, which I due quit often?

Once you have flown off your flight test hours and are operating in Phase II, you flying freedom will be very much like a certificated aircraft with a few minor exceptions like informing ATC of the experimental nature of your aircraft. The "no operation over densely populated areas" is for phase I flight testing. During phase II, you may operate over densely populated area or in congested airspace if directed by ATC or you have sufficient altitude to effect a safe emergency landing in case of engine failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

With the proper equipment, same stuff you would need in your 172, you can do the same things in an RV that you can do in your 172. VFR, IFR, Day, Night, mix and match. Even go into space, ala Burt Rutans SpaceShip One

beattiema said:

With the proper equipment, same stuff you would need in your 172, you can do the same things in an RV that you can do in your 172. VFR, IFR, Day, Night, mix and match. Even go into space, ala Burt Rutans SpaceShip One

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Yes, but you need nitrous - ala George!

40 HOURS IS PHASE 1??

beattiema said:

With the proper equipment, same stuff you would need in your 172, you can do the same things in an RV that you can do in your 172. VFR, IFR, Day, Night, mix and match. Even go into space, ala Burt Rutans SpaceShip One

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I don't think Rutan had 40 hours in space ship one and he might have gone beyond his test box before his 40 hours were up!

What do you think his restrictions were?

luv2flypilot said:

SNIP I remember when I received my Pilot's Certificate and all the long studying for the written test reading that experimental airplanes are restricted from flight in populated areas, however I see them flying in to KHWD (Hayward Airport, Bay Area Calif.) quit often where I keep my Cessna 172. What kind of restrictions may I run into if I get an RV? Can I still fly up the coast line and call Nor Cal for a sqwauk code and get clearance to fly over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, which I due quit often?

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There was, and may still be on the books, a restriction similar to what Luv wrote. A number of years ago - maybe 6 or 8? - a clarification was issued regarding experimentals and flights over populated areas for other than takeoff and landing. I don't remember the details.

I recall also that there was for some experimental types which were becoming numerous (RV, Glasair, etc.) the allowance that one could use "So-and-so tower, RV123KA, 10 east...", without saying "experimental". Others will brings facts to my recollection I'm sure.

Space Ship 1, N328KF, is not licensed as amateur-built. Therefore it did not have a 40 hr fly-off. It is registered as a research & development glider.

Regulations and your operating limitations still require that you inform ATC of the experimental nature of you aircraft when operating into or out of an airport with an operating control tower.

beattiema said:

With the proper equipment, same stuff you would need in your 172, you can do the same things in an RV that you can do in your 172.

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Negative.........you can do so much more, including attracting more of the fairer sex, whoopdedoops and get waaaay better gas mileage

Ain't it grand?

Might have not been mentioned

airguy said:

Yes, but you need nitrous - ala George!

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ha ha ha I am never going to live it down.

I am not sure any one mentioned YOU CAN'T RENT THE PLANE OUT OR USE IT FOR HIRE OR COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS.

You can use it to fly your your self on a business trips (but not part of the business).

It CAN NOT be used or rented out for training of others, but you can get a waver to do transition training (of others for hire) if you're a CFI. Takes some special paper work (and if wise more insurance). You don't need any special wavier for YOU to get training in your own RV. Say you have no flight time and bought a flying RV and found a CFI to teach you, you could use the RV to get your rating. There is some uncertainty about finding a Flight Examiner if say you don't have full dual controls (like a RV4 or RV8).

You can fly over densely populated areas if you are taking off and landing and what Mel said.

Hi Folks,

First of all, sorry for dredging up this old thread. I have read several sources that essentially state (I'm paraphrasing here): "the operating limitations on amateur-built experimentals are not significantly different from those on certificated aircraft".

Now, here is how the relevant standard limitations read from Order 8130.2F CHG 3 (4/18/07):

(item 5): "Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways."

(item 6): "This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency lading in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

Now, if item 6 were the only Phase II limitation, I'd agree "it's basically the same as certificated." But it appears that item 5 applies for Phase I and II.

So my question is, do RVs get items 5 and 6 for Phase II? If so, it would seem quite stringent to comply with both items, i.e. pretty hard to operate anywhere near CLT. What am I missing here?

I am looking to build an RV as a IFR X-C spam can replacement, if these limitations prevent that I need a plan B.

PART 91 RULES RULE

I'm sure all of us reviewed Part 91 during our last BFR, but some may have forgotten the details pertainining to operating limitations for Experimental aircraft.

Paragraph (c) is of particualr importance, and begins with the phrase "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations..."



PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES

Subpart D--Special Flight Operations

Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;
or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.

limitations

Does that mean that an experimental aircraft cannot fly night VFR without a special examination being carried out?
What about travel outside the US, such as to the Bahamas? Do 12 inch "N" numbers still need to be applied?

I was flying an RV7a today (new at this) and contacted approach control with "experimental" in the call sign. The approach controller came back with something unexpected, so I am not sure I heard it right, but I think he said, "Are you experimental category A, B, or C?" I answered, "I'm an RV7A" and then he used "RV..." as my call sign instead of "Experimental."

Can anyone tell me what category he was referring to?

Thanks

586RG said:

Does that mean that an experimental aircraft cannot fly night VFR without a special examination being carried out?
What about travel outside the US, such as to the Bahamas? Do 12 inch "N" numbers still need to be applied?

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You operating limitations will state that you may fly at night and/or IFR if your aircraft complies with 91.205. This is your "special authorization." To travel outside the United States, you must have 12" numbers. These numbers may be temporary.

Dave Cole said:

Paragraph (c) is of particular importance,

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(

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Your operating limitations will address this. Statement is:
(paraphrased) During phase II you can operate over densely populated areas and in congested airways if instructed by ATC or sufficient altitude is maintained to provide a safe emergency landing in case of an engine failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

There is a lot of miss-information out about experimentals. My neighbor, a student pilot, was told by his instructor that he should not purchase an experimental because he would not be able to land at airports with control towers.

Paranoid?

I know the quote: "just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean that someone is not out to get you."

In the case of where one can fly an experimental plane it is not an issue. We are being paranoid and nobody is out to get us. If it were a problem to fly VFR or IFR anywhere in an experimental plane there would be a lot of dust raised in these forums and by the EAA and probably AOPA. We fly where we wish after the 40 hour fly off. We stay out of TFRs and the other airspace that nobody is allowed in.
I routinely fly through the entire B through G airspace alphabet legally and without problem. Sometimes I can't get into the B around Houston but I seem to get in it more with my GTX 330 transponder than I was able to do in my 172 with its coffee grinder transponder.
Mel and others have quoted the regs. The above is my reality and I believe their's too. I have never found it to be a problem to fly anywhere in an experimental plane.

JHines said:

Hi Folks,

First of all, sorry for dredging up this old thread. I have read several sources that essentially state (I'm paraphrasing here): "the operating limitations on amateur-built experimentals are not significantly different from those on certificated aircraft".

Now, here is how the relevant standard limitations read from Order 8130.2F CHG 3 (4/18/07):

(item 5): "Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways."

(item 6): "This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency lading in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

Now, if item 6 were the only Phase II limitation, I'd agree "it's basically the same as certificated." But it appears that item 5 applies for Phase I and II.

So my question is, do RVs get items 5 and 6 for Phase II? If so, it would seem quite stringent to comply with both items, i.e. pretty hard to operate anywhere near CLT. What am I missing here?

I am looking to build an RV as a IFR X-C spam can replacement, if these limitations prevent that I need a plan B.

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Jonathan,

Since I just came from meeting with the FAA last week so they could revise my Phase I limitations I asked them about this.

It turns out that they just sort of wink at it. He said not to even concern myself with it.

My limitations include the phrase, "Clear of all class B airspace", in other words, stay out of Charlotte's airspace.

Once my 40 hour phase I test period is flown off, I can go in there. Until then, I will have to go and play with Concord if I want to land at a controlled airport.

The other big restriction is no night or instrument flight during phase I. After that, I can fly at night or IFR, if the airplane is so equipped, bla, bla, bla.

My -9 is equipped for VFR night so once I'm past Phase I, I will fly at night.

For those who don't know...

If you have a certified engine - propeller combination, you will probably get a 25 hour phase I test period. This is for the airplane. If you bought an RV that has been flying for some time, it is probably in phase II.

In my case, I have an "experimental" propeller, thus my Phase I test period is 40 hours.

Phase II is what the FAA calls all flights after you complete Phase I. The only way to exit Phase II is to go back to Phase I for some type of testing.

Hope that helps.

Hi all,
New to this myself... how long does "Phase II" last? Or is this basically anything after your Phase I testing?

I love the idea of building a RV, but I don't want to be limited too much in my choices on where to fly.

Thanks!

edneff said:

I was flying an RV7a today (new at this) and contacted approach control with "experimental" in the call sign. The approach controller came back with something unexpected, so I am not sure I heard it right, but I think he said, "Are you experimental category A, B, or C?" I answered, "I'm an RV7A" and then he used "RV..." as my call sign instead of "Experimental."

Can anyone tell me what category he was referring to?

Thanks

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Two issues here, FAR 91.319 (3) says that you have to "notify" the tower of "the experimental nature of the aircraft." Most ov us just do this on the initial call. After that most controllers will just call you "RV" and an N number. The second issue is the "class" question. This has to do with what you are supposed to put on a flight plan in the type box. Since there are so many experimental types without "approved" codes like production aircraft. So... most all RVs are HXB (homebuilt experimental 100-200 knots cruise)

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

aviationgeek84 said:

Hi all,
New to this myself... how long does "Phase II" last? Or is this basically anything after your Phase I testing?

I love the idea of building a RV, but I don't want to be limited too much in my choices on where to fly.

Thanks!

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Casey, that is correct, once you are finished with your Phase I testing (be it 25 or 40 hours or whatever the FAA/DAR indicates) and it is found that the aircraft is safe for normal operations, etc. and you sign off on that in the logbook (builder/pilot endorsed logbook entry), then you have officially begun Phase II. Phase II is just simply the official jargon that you are no longer in basic flight testing and you are now flying your experimental under the standard privileges that we are permitted under our Experimental, Amateur built Special Airworthiness Certificate, which quite frankly allows us to do just about everything the Average Joe pilot wants to do - VFR/IFR day/nite - any class airspace, etc as long as the airplane is properly equipped for the mission. Everyone has already mentioned the limitations and as you can see, there aren't as many issues as the Spam Canners bad gossip tales will have you believe. Most of those folks - many young CFI's getting ready to drive a big bus, have no clue about that kinda stuff. Unfortunatley you will even find that the local FSDO's don't often know all the regs properly.

As there are more and more homebuilts each year and we are slowly starting to eclipse the certificated GA fleet. Found an interesting quote in Wikipedia, "In 2003, the number of homebuilt aircraft produced in the USA exceeded the number produced by any single certified manufacturer."

Clearly we have everyone's attention in the industry over the last several decades and things are changing and getting easier for us to operate as our interaction with FSDOs, ATC, etc. increases.

edneff said:

I think he said, "Are you experimental category A, B, or C?" I answered, "I'm an RV7A" and then he used "RV..." as my call sign instead of "Experimental."

Can anyone tell me what category he was referring to?

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I'm not aware of an experimental classification system A, B or C.

I believe he was refering to the classifications used to define approach speeds from the Final Approach Fix (FAF) on an instrument approach. It is based on 1.3 Vso. Class A is under 90 Kts, B is 91 to 120, C is 121 to 140, etc.

I'm going to guess that controllers have indexes by aircraft type (ie PA28R) that include the approach category and your RV ain't on it.

edneff said:

I was flying an RV7a today (new at this) and contacted approach control with "experimental" in the call sign. The approach controller came back with something unexpected, so I am not sure I heard it right, but I think he said, "Are you experimental category A, B, or C?" I answered, "I'm an RV7A" and then he used "RV..." as my call sign instead of "Experimental."

Can anyone tell me what category he was referring to?

Thanks

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See FAA Order 7340.1

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/CNT/5-3.htm

HXA, HXB, HXC

Controllers use this as aircraft type when entering a flight plan (IFR or VFR) for experimental aircraft. To be honest, alot of controllers don't use these codes because they can't remember them, so they will use RV6, RV7, EXP or whatever.
This link has the info from the controller handbook.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/acdesig_c.html


Oops. I see that someone beat me to the answer.

Thanks everyone. Well, next time I'll ask him if he's referring to my approach speed or my cruise speed. Approach = Cat A. Cruise= HXB.

Thanks

edneff said:

Thanks everyone. Well, next time I'll ask him if he's referring to my approach speed or my cruise speed. Approach = Cat A. Cruise= HXB.

Thanks

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The list calls out "indicated cruise speed".

Mel said:

The list calls out "indicated cruise speed".

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Yes, but as someone posted above, the controller's comment could have been construed to mean "approach category" vs "homebuilt category".

Anyone else ever been asked this question by a controller?

It might be better explained when the controller calls you back (EXPERIMENTAL) and tells you to slow your approach speed so that the LEAR can land first.
Had to throw that one in there.

Bruce said:

It might be better explained when the controller calls you back (EXPERIMENTAL) and tells you to slow your approach speed so that the LEAR can land first.
Had to throw that one in there.

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Going into Springfield, MO; I once had a controller tell me to follow the twin ahead that was 20 knots slower.