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Nutplates driving me nuts!

dbhill916

dbhill916

Well Known Member
Hi all,

I've hit my first major stumbling block by being very confused about nut plate nomenclature. My kit inventory included K1000-3's, K1000-4's, K1000-06's and K1100-08's. I dutifully installed the smallest of these in the Vert Stab, believing them to be the K1000-3's, but they are clearly too small to accept the AN3-5 bolts.

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A35oqs3qeaYER

I can't post attachments, but you can find a photo of the nutplates I have and some AN3 bolts?they clearly show that the bolt fits the middle sized nutplate, but that should be a K1000-4 according to the inventory, but a K1000-3 because it fits an AN3.

What is the smallest nutplate in the photo? I haven't found any references to anything smaller than a K1000-3. Is there such a thing as a K1000-2?

Any suggestions before I have to tear down the VS?

Many thanks in advance,
-dbh
----------
RV12-0760
 
I recently finished this but I can't see the pictures. If you email me at bob @ rv-12 . net, I'll look at my stuff.

Thanks,

Bob
 
Nut Plates

The K1000 is essentially the same as MS21047.
K1000-06 6-32 screw
K1000-08 8-32 screw
K1000-3 10-32 screw or AN3 bolt
K1000-4 AN4 bolt

The K1000 and MS21047 are FULL SIZE two lug all metal nut plates.
The same size and shape is available countersunk
A miniature series two lug anchor nut is similar and differs only in rivet hole spacing and overall length

single lug and corner style will have different numbers.

I find it helpful to keep these in a parts bin with an example taped to the front of each drawer with clear tape.
 
If the bolts are -3 in the photo, then my guess would be......

At the 4" mark.....K1100-0 for a 6/32 thread.
At the 6" mark K1000-4 for a 1/4" thread.
At the 8" mark K1000-3 for a 10/32 thread.
At the 9" mark K1000-08 for a 8/32 thread.

Nutplates are easy to get mixed up. Always prove the bolt or screw that the plans call for before installing them.
 
nut plates

Information posted by gasman is not correct. Aircraft Spruce catalog is the simplest reference, GAHCO correct but overly complicated.
Remember -3 represents 3/16" diameter, fits 3/16 or AN3 bolt
-4 equals 4/16" or AN4 bolt
-5 AN5 bolt etc etc.
Only the #6 and #8 screws are different. #10 screw and AN3 bolt are both 10-32 thread. Screws are available in different threads, but 32 pitch thresd is the most common.
 
The simplest tip of all... Always confirm the nutplate, using a fastener that matches the hole diameter.
If you are installing a nutplate, the hole is generally at the final diameter. Make sure you are installing a nutplate that matches the hole size.
 
One issue that hasn't been addressed in this thread is the difference between the K1000 and K1100 series of anchor nuts.

The K1100 series such as the K1100-08 are dimpled so that they nest over a dimpled hole in the skin to which they are riveted. That way they can accommodate the attachment of another dimpled skin secured by a countersunk screw through the two skins and threaded into the anchor nut:

http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts5.php?clickkey=7347

Given the inventory in the first post, I'd guess that that's the K1100-08 at the 4" position in the photo. I'd further guess that the K1000-06 is at 9", the K1000-3 is at 8", and the K1000-4 is at 6".

Thanks, Bob K.
 
jrs14855 said:
Information posted by gasman is not correct. Aircraft Spruce catalog is the simplest reference, GAHCO correct but overly complicated.
Remember -3 represents 3/16" diameter, fits 3/16 or AN3 bolt
-4 equals 4/16" or AN4 bolt
-5 AN5 bolt etc etc.
Only the #6 and #8 screws are different. #10 screw and AN3 bolt are both 10-32 thread. Screws are available in different threads, but 32 pitch thresd is the most common.
Click to expand...

I guessed (looking at the photo) that at the 4" mark.....K1100-0 for a 6/32 thread was a dimpled nutplate from 2012 A/C Spruce catalog page 72.
 
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My 2 cents....

I too was bit by the "nutplate bug". Recieved an incorrect nutplate from Van's with the tailcone/emp kit. And not paying enough attention; found out when attaching the control arms on the stabilizer. Much blue smoke above my work bench!

But after cooling down, figured how to replace with correct size. Point is guys...it is our individual responsibility too make sure we use the proper parts. I then stopped and got the mini-tool/parts bens and labeled down to each and every nutplate (figuring out the nomincatures), screws, bolts and washers. Has saved me much time once done.

A word of advice (as already stated), set-up a spare piece of material with the mounting holes made for each size. Then pre-mount each and every nutplate with kilcos and chase the threads before using (ask me why I do this now). I have a small screw driver handle multi-thread tap that works for #6, #8 & #10 threads that save much time. Then use alittle boelube on the threads when installing hardware. Much of these attachments must be removed and reinstalled multiple times.

We could all stand around and bitch about receiving mixed up parts from Van's; however, who wants to pay the extra cost for the staffing it would take to break down each and every item? And in the "real world" the brightest bulb isn't the one picking parts (no dig intended here).

The one thing "Scott" that would really help would be to include in the "plans", a break-out of the different nutplates used in Van's kits....just saying..

All in all, I am amazed at the degree of fit and finish of my kit. My hat is off to Van's and crew!!!

On the wings now...and loving them..
 
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If I had one thing I would do over with my build, it is that I wish I had used this piece of advice at the very first. It makes the build not only faster and easier, it helps us get acquainted with the part nomeclature. It would make Vans job far easier as well, putting ALL the nutplates of a certain size in ONE bag rather than dozens, that goes as well for the screws, bolts, rivets, etc.

Phantom30 said:
My 2 cents....
But after cooling down, figured how to replace with correct size. Point is guys...it is our individual responsibility too make sure we use the proper parts. I then stopped and got the mini-tool/parts bens and labeled down to each and every nutplate (figuring out the nomincatures), screws, bolts and washers. Has saved me much time once done.
Click to expand...
 
SMO said:
Just an FYI, if you chase these threads with a tap you will destroy, or at least diminish, the self locking feature of the nutplates.
Click to expand...

Granted there are pros and cons to every approach...however, it is the compressive force on the threads that hold it in place (alittle med loctite if concerned) and you won"t chew up the threads on the screws or bolts.
 
Phantom30 said:
The one thing "Scott" that would really help would be to include in the "plans", a break-out of the different nutplates used in Van's kits....just saying..
Click to expand...

Extensive updating of Manual Section 5 is just now being finalized (it will likely be released with the RV-14 Emp/Aft Fuselage Kit).
When released, it will likely be posted in the general plans revisions section of the web site (so it will be available to everyone).

One of the additions is a full scale reference chart of all nutplates currently used in RV kits
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Extensive updating of Manual Section 5 is just now being finalized (it will likely be released with the RV-14 Emp/Aft Fuselage Kit).
When released, it will likely be posted in the general plans revisions section of the web site (so it will be available to everyone).

One of the additions is a full scale reference chart of all nutplates currently used in RV kits
Click to expand...

YEA!

(Although I learned early on to look up each nut plate via ACS, google or from the bag count....separate them and place them in their own, well-labeled bin and always, always, double check one last time prior to use! That is undoubtedly very important when you get to the fuselage kit and the gazillion nut plates there)
 
Another trick I picked up, was to look ahead in the plans, find what was going to screw into the nutplate, then try it on before riveting. Saved some work a couple of times.
 
DonFromTX said:
Another trick I picked up, was to look ahead in the plans, find what was going to screw into the nutplate, then try it on before riveting. Saved some work a couple of times.
Click to expand...

Yep - and someone here recommended the following with the CR flush rivets on some nut plates....

Use a handheld prp/arrow riveter with the smallest head installed, and use a screw to hold the nutplate on really tight....the clecos don't really hold it tight enough.... otherwise those CR rivets are a real pain.
 
Nutplate install tip that has worked for me

cactuspilot said:
Yep - and someone here recommended the following with the CR flush rivets on some nut plates....

Use a handheld prp/arrow riveter with the smallest head installed, and use a screw to hold the nutplate on really tight....the clecos don't really hold it tight enough.... otherwise those CR rivets are a real pain.
Click to expand...

Cut and pasted this from another thread from a year ago. Title was "My many nutplates" with much of the same discussion re tapping them.

For what it's worth,

Generally, I defer to the plans and assume that the engineer/designer specified self-locking hardware for a good reason. I haven't tapped out any nutplates yet. As many have said, use a bit of lube going in the first time and they get easier with use, yet still maintain enough friction that a loose screw won't back out. Once you tap out the threads you can't have that confidence anymore!

Here's what I've been doing:
1-Cleco the nutplate in position.
2-Stack some washers and/or an oversized nut onto a Machine Screw (of the correct size and thread pitch) and screw it into the nutplate firm but not too tight. Object is to hold the nutplate in position and alignment while riveting it.
3-Rivet the nutplate as specified.
4-Remove the screw and "shims".
5-Rinse and Repeat...

It all takes some extra time, but a couple of good things happen.
First, you're running a screw into and out of the nutplate to "tame" it a bit as other have discussed. Second, you're holding it in position and aligned with the screw hole so it doesn't wiggle as you're riveting and make later assembly a real pain. Tha't not when you want to discover that the thing won't work. Not sure which of these benefits the most, but I haven't had any problems when it came time to screw something in place.

I can only imagine tapping out the threads in an application where the fasteners and fastened material are non-structural, need to be removed frequently, I can see them easily in case they're working loose, and nothing bad will happen if they depart the aircraft or rattle around inside! Hard to imagine such an application, but it's possible I suppose.

I remember reading a post long ago about a nutplate that was slightly misaligned or something such that the builder was unable to start a screw in it. Result was a fair bit of disassembly, drill-out, reinstall, and reassembly. The notion of tapping out the threads came up then also. Hopefully the suggested procedure will help someone avoid that without defeating the purpose of the self-locking feature.

Clear Skies!
 
Another time saver when using a screw to hold the nut plate while riveting: use a short screw with a stack of rivets so you only engage a few threads.
 
Do the bolts that go in the nutplates get torqued? I suspect not but torque paint is probably a good idea...

Thanks,

Bob
 
bhassel said:
Do the bolts that go in the nutplates get torqued? I suspect not but torque paint is probably a good idea...

Thanks,

Bob
Click to expand...

My theory is that all bolts get torqued. Some using a torque wrench, some using "feel". If you are torquing a screw or bolt into a nut-plate, or "plate-nut", then you would add the friction torque of the nut-plate to the total torque.

In my experience, it is all-too-easy to not properly torque a bolt/screw going into a nut-plate. In other words, it is too easy to stop (especially with screws) turning the screw before you actually bottom the screw out properly.

Boelube helps.

Stainless screws into a nut-plate can be a problem, galling can be an issue.

My $0.02, YMMV, JOMO, DSTM, etc.
 
Thanks Pete, where do I find the friction torque value of plate-nuts? I've looked through 'The Standard Aircraft Handbook' and have apparently missed it.

Thanks,

Bob
 
I'm not aware of a published value for nut-plate drag.

You can put a bolt into a nut plate, put a torque wrench on it, and see how much torque it takes. Hard to do with a "click" type torque wrench, easier with the bending-bar type.

Try a number of nutplates, you may find an average that would work. If you are going to use Boelube in assembly, use it in the tests, as well.

You can do the same for Nyloc style nuts.
 
You might need remind me!

I will try to get the basic torque specs for popular nutplates when I get to work Monday.
 
DonFromTX said:
Early on in my build, I encountered a bum nutplate, caused me some real grief until I figured out how to get it fixed. That was the start of my checking each nutplate carefully for fit.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/displ...TX&project=1903&category=0&log=123016&row=241
Click to expand...

Wow...had to do the exact same thing (looks like we even used the same wire). That was my welcoming intro into the world of "nutplates"!

I think I'll take the advice of not "chasing" the threads....will pre-thread with boelube a few times before installing (just to make sure), and use the "short holding screw w/washers while installing rivets"! I know I have many many more to go!

Love this forum; as always, some good and some not so good advice...but hey always a good read especially for us novice builders.
 
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