Good point about the EAA and AOPA.
Has anyone contacted EAA and AOPA about this?
What action exactly would you like taken?
I really don't care a whit about the issue one way or another, I'm responding to the post that asked "where is the EAA and AOPA on this issue?"
There's a way to get the answer to that question.
I really don't care a whit about the issue one way or another, I'm responding to the post that asked "where is the EAA and AOPA on this issue?"
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I like the way you think.The simple game plan would for everyone to stop buying these reserved numbers. Get any number, use vinyl lettering, wait for him to go out of biz and get the number when it's released again. Shouldn't take too long if no one's buying them anymore. Supply and demand.
And for those who suggest just buying them ALL up, and holding them hostage, my math indicates over 67 million possible N-numbers (more if we start using more letters). Let's assume (very) generously that 17 million are taken already. That's 50 million numbers at $10 a pop, so half a billion dollars to buy them all up.
Manufacturers have been reserving large blocks of N-numbers since at least the 1940's.
(c) An aircraft manufacturer may apply to the Registry for enough U.S. registration numbers to supply estimated production for the next 18 months. There is no charge for this allocation of numbers.
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.
There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.
To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.
Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.
There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:
http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm
Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution.
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
Then the FAA adds one letter to the registration process (N123ABC) and you go from about 1M combinations to about 35M that have to be reserved. Your costs skyrocketed while your ROI stayed the same. IMHO not a good business plan.Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
ExactlyUnfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
Bob you will care when you have to pay this guy $1500 just to get an N-number, any N-number, to register the RV-12 you just started.
This is what the FAA said
This issue has been reviewed by our legal department and a determination has been made that this is not a matter that we can take action on. As of now, any entity may reserve an N-Number in their name for a one year period, and once the number is reserved there is no regulations dictating how they must use their reserved number.
Have a good day,
JC
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.
There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.
To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.
Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.
There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:
http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm
Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.
As noted, there aren't millions and millions of available N-numbers.
Not currently. But add one letter, which the FAA can do at anytime, and the number skyrockets to almost 35M. NOW do the same analysis.
Actually 34 times the number. 24 letters and 10 numbers if correctly written. Charging tens of thousands per registration is mathematecally possible but a practical impossibility.24 times the number...so I get a bigger loan from the VCs, and buy all *those*, and then charge tens of thousands of dollars to transfer any N-number.
It's not the numbers (pun intended) that's the problem...
Since N-numbers come up for renewal every 3 years
Reserved numbers expire every year and must be renewed for $10. So you have to spend the $6M every year. Only active registrations last 3 years.
You're going to spend $6M+ per year running this buisness. There are 2,000 new planes a year, minus the ones that get de-registered (which are your competition). So if you're lucky you can sell 1,500 a year.
$6M / 1,500 = $4,000 break even cost. Sounds like a somewhat risky play, given the government can squash you anytime, so your money partner is going to want a pretty high rate of return, say 25%. So you're at $5K per registration just to break even. The higher that number gets, the more likely you are to get the government to fix the problem (change the rules, make registrations 6 characters...).
The more likely way to play this is to totally block aviation completely, and then assume you can squeeze $500K to $1M out of the airlines for each new plane, and just hope for 10-20 registrations a year. Again, the problem is that it's now cheaper for an airline that wants 10 new planes to spend $5M on lawyers and lobbyists than it is to pay you, so you're funding your own demise.
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7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.
Or perhaps they could offset it by charging considerably more at first, before the government has time to react by instituting new rules (NPRMs take time...).
Actually a very good 1st step.The FAA gets with the '90's and uses some kind of Captcha authentication so registration can't be scripted. So if the scalper(s) want to play they get to do this manually like everybody else. It doesn't take an act of congress to do that. Basic web programming..
The old system that was around in the late 70's and 80's would provide a solution.
A custom number was only assigned to a specific aircraft, even if it was still under construction.
You needed a make/model/serial number to get the special number.
That doesn't solve the problem of more than 1 person wanting the same number, which is still a situation that would occur, and is at it's essence, the root of the issue here. As long as they are transferrable, some people will buy and sell their tail #'s.
I'd be willing to bet you'd sell your tail # for the right price, and I'm also willing to bet that most people who wanted your number would be willing to pay more than $10 for it, so we can't really be opposed to the idea of buying and selling them.
We can end the practice by either making them non-transferrable, which sure would be a shame, or by assigning one random number to each aircraft, no changes allowed. Would that make people happy?
The idea of VAF running a similar system is great, but it doesn't answer the real question: what if I happen to win a number that somebody else wants as well? If he offers me enough $ to make me happy, can I not sell it?
Nobody has yet answered that question: What if 2 people want the same number? How do you decide who gets it, and are they not allowed to negotiate themselves?
Chris
Nope because then I just claim I am building PRFLY, Model 1, SN's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... etc.The old system that was around in the late 70's and 80's would provide a solution.
A custom number was only assigned to a specific aircraft, even if it was still under construction.
You needed a make/model/serial number to get the special number.
Nope because then I just claim I am building PRFLY, Model 1, SN's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... etc.
There is always a way around rules.
Okay.. okay.. okay...
Now that I understand the desperate situation that nobody is in, trying to tackle this problem that does not exist, I can provide a PERFECT solution:
Anyone who can afford to BUILD an aircraft and cannot afford to REGISTER it must receive a taxpayer subsidy to buy one of these fleeting registration numbers.
An alternative solution is that if you actually think this is a problem you should be subjected to a HIMS evaluation.... because you're mental.
Normally I don't get all argumentative here on VAF and I spew it out on Pilots of America, but this topic is so dumb at it's core that I broke my own rule.
You miss the point Rob. It is an outrage whenever someone does **** like this. .... So take your rant and...
You miss the point Rob. It is an outrage whenever someone does **** like this. Getting money for nothing even if it's perfectly legal. It SUCKS. A lot of people scrimp and save most of their adult lives and budget carefully to build their dream and I didn't budget for an A hole to soak me for something I should be getting from the FAA. So maybe I don't NEED one of Sean's scalped numbers, but I know I put a lot of thought into the few numbers I requested. So take your rant and...
All this talked scared me. So i went ahead and reserved my prefered N number. There was several versions available last month but now only one of those were left.
My opinon is it should be a crime to resell. No one should be allowed to resell N number; if you dont use it then one needs to turn it in so it goes back in pool. No more transferring unless it is attached to actual property.
(Note: didn't mention them so I can potentially avoid poachers)
I really hate to say this but this sounds very much like someone whining because their little brother drank all the chocolate milk when there is 2% milk in the fridge and nesquick in the cupboard.
This guy is not stopping you....at all....from registering your plane, you just won't get the number you want. I still have yet to see how what he's doing is a scam, or even how it light be shady. On the contrary it lookalike what he's doing is perfectly legal and is actually providing a service to those willing to pay to get one of his tail numbers, it's just your a little hurt that his prices are not what you'd consider fair. Would you still complain if he charged you 500? 100? 50? Probably not.
I really hate to say this but this sounds very much like someone whining because their little brother drank all the chocolate milk when there is 2% milk in the fridge and nesquick in the cupboard.
This guy is not stopping you....at all....from registering your plane, you just won't get the number you want. I still have yet to see how what he's doing is a scam, or even how it light be shady. On the contrary it lookalike what he's doing is perfectly legal and is actually providing a service to those willing to pay to get one of his tail numbers, it's just your a little hurt that his prices are not what you'd consider fair. Would you still complain if he charged you 500? 100? 50? Probably not.