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Emag/Pmag

frankh

frankh

Well Known Member
Ok so now I got EVERYbody's attention..:)

I was wondering if anyone had heard/experienced any problems since the latest E/Pmag fix of attatching the magnet to the shaft with solder and roll pinned the cup to the shaft?

I have probably 50 hours on the latest set up with no issues (since September 08) but was wondering what other's experiences have been?

Thanks

Frank
 
I guess I don't understand the poster's position in the situation. He says "he got his 11th failure", then says "the pilot was unable to isolate the ignitions..." leading me to believe he is relating a story that apparently happened to someone else.
Don't mistake my confusion for defending Emagair, but this post sounds like an incident that happened to someone else that he is relating with anecdotal evidence about...this apparent failure doesn't appear to be straight from the horse's mouth and leaves out lots of details that are probably pertinent.
I have not repeated stories of Lightspeed ignition failures that have resulted in off airport landings, engine failures and possible fatalities because they are not firsthand information and in some cases they are still tied up in litigation. I hate to see anyone badmouth anyone's product in a manner such as this, but it is apparent it will never end. Whether its an ignition system or a fuel system design, I sure wish we (as a group) could refrain from absolute doom and gloom statements on this forum. There are lots of unknowns, inconsistencies and lack of standardization in ignition system wiring and fuel system design, especially in the homebuilt world. To call every (fill in the name of the manufacturer here) related incident an accident waiting to happen is simply not responsible.
 
Wonder.....

Is it clear that this failure he documents was with the newer attachment system? I too am waiting for the hours to build on these before making the jump.
 
I agree

Actually it was that aeroelectric post that prompted the question..I was about to ask the fellow what form of magnet attachment he was referring to, but it seemed as Bob said..He is not a fan.

Also the lack of isolation ability sounds to me like the E/Pmag was not wired correctly..i.e the "P"lead was not able to be grounded.

Frank
 
Mike Larkin?

Isn't Mike Larkin the guy that has always been complaining about EMag? His problem was something more than the ignition. In fact, if he is the same guy, his engine vibrated so bad that it broke the case on a mag. That is why he tried the PMag and wonders why they wouldn't work for him. EMag kept giving him replacements and they kept breaking. Wonder why? Go fix your engine. Compare that to the 1000s of trouble free hours and you have to start looking at him. Just wanted to provide some additional info. If he is not the guy I'm thinking of then I apologize in advance, but I think he is. BTW, I have 250 hours on dual PMags and have only had one problem - a board fried itself on the ground between start and the mag check. Promptly and politely replaced by Brad and Tom.
 
PMAG

I have put 220 hours on our RV7a with two PMAGs since last year's inspection when I removed both PMAGs and had the service bulletin complied with. I have had no issues. The RV7a now has 490 hours total on it since first flight in April 2007. The PMAGs have been working great.
 
The problem with that guy's post is not that he is spewing 2nd hand info, you have no idea of what software and hardware rev level the guy had. It could be that the guy with the problem was flying with P-mag's that are three years old and had never gone back for any of the upgrades.

One other thing, why couldn't the guy shut off his offending P-mag? Weren't they wired through a pullable breaker? Something smells fishy with that story.

As for your question, I have over 50 hours since the last upgrade, 211+ hours total on my duel P-mags and all is good.

PS. With some of the testing I've been doing with the P-mags, I have tried to screw them up and they just keep ticking right along. More to come on this in a month or two.
 
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It was me

The failure Mike Larkin was referring to was mine. He is not a fan but has had no direct experience with them. Mike is friend of mine and was very helpful during the wiring of my plane. He had a problem with his ignition that probably didn't get much publicity.

The mag failed for unknown reasons. These were not upgraded versions but they were working so I didn't pull them in for updates. Upon inspection both magnets were still intact with the old securing method. This failure appears to be electronics. I have them both back now with full updates.

I will do an extensive post on my event but I need to correct a few quick things. 1) The temp on one cylinder did hit 600 for a couple of seconds. The others hit 500 plus momentarily. I was able to keep it running at very reduced power settings. With the lower power setting the temps stayed in the mid 400's. The entire event only lasted about 5 minutes.

2) The engine was not damaged to my knowledge so far. We bore scoped the cylinders and could see no sign of damage. Further a cold compression check was done and the pressures were down some from my annual compression test. I'll have the engine running in the next few days and I'll do a hot compression check to see the difference. I will be sending in some oil for analysis. The oil filter was cut open and no obvious signs of metal were there, including a magnet test.

The ECI engineers were consulted and said there would be possibility of damage but not guaranteed. They said the next thing to watch is oil consumption and a warm compression check.

3) The inability to isolate the mag appears to be a bad ground to that mag. For safety sake I completely rewired the ignition system with no connectors anywhere in line. The original wiring had a couple of connectors for ease of removal. That has been eliminated.

As I noted, I'll do an extensive recap of the event. It was scary.:eek:
 
Thank you Darwin for speaking up and clearing up a few things. Most importantly, glad you are ok. We look forward to the full report.

erich
 
Ok a theory

The e/pmags were early ones that were set with the blow in the tube method. There was a failure mode where the mag would loose its reference and revert back to the factory default..and that could be anywhere.

This was pretty early unit like a year and a half back i think.

Mine did the same (similar experience to yours) so I cleared the factory setting and "hard timed them"..now I do use the blow in the tube but only to get the timing spot on..I.e if the thing looses its brains it should only shift a couple of degrees.

The lack of ground sounds like the problem..I know the emag shorts the output transistor drivers to ground so there is no way it can fire.IF you got a ground that is.

Yeahscary though I been there..thought my engine was toast too but it ws fine.

Frank
 
RV7Guy said:
The mag failed for unknown reasons..........It was scary.:eek:
Click to expand...

Darwin, No-one on VansAirforce has made more postings on the PMAG reliability issue than you...literally dozens of posts over an extended period of time (all of them supportive of the system). I refer typically to your VansAirforce posting of 19/4/08 reproduced in part below.

RV7Guy said:
I was an early adopter of the E/PMags. There were some early issues but have not had a problem in quite some time. Use with confidence.
Click to expand...

In light of your most recent failure, is your confidence in the PMAGS evaporating. I am imagining that you were very close to destroying an engine and if that had happened the outcome might have been catastrophic.
 
Still Confident

As I noted, my units had not been updated but were working fine so I left them in. They are now upgraded. And, although not definitive, I think I had a bad ground to the mag that failed keeping me from isolating the mag. I rewired everything and will be firing it up tomorrow.

Yes I still have confidence in Pmags. If I have future problems I will probably go to slick mags. I just haven't heard of many issues with the newest upgraded units.
 
First I have no personal experience on this subject!

There has been alot of discussion on one of the canard groups I follow (Cozy). There is a summary of the discussion here.

You can judge for yourself if it's a valid debate. The web site hosting this page is by Marc Zeitlin. Marc has been a strong supporter of the Cozy canard aircraft and in his spare time is responsible for "Rocket Motor Development program for SS2" for Scaled Composites. Yelp that's Burt Rutan's Spaceship program. I have followed Marc's insight and input for years - typical engineering thought process - all data and analysis - plus a really nice guy.

YMMV,

Bob
 
This was posted

This reference was posted a few months ago. And, although there may be some merit, it was later discovered that the Cozy in question had a significant engine vibration problem that may have contributed to the problem. In fact, in previous references to this article he tried to blame all of his engine problems on the Pmags.

I don't like it when all the information isn't posted. There was much more to the story than that posted.
 
E Mag P Mag failure

I finally have to add my .02 cents to this discussion. Gary Cotner is a freind of mine and had a beautiful airplane until it was destroyed after installing a replacement P Mag when the first one failed.

Another of my friends recently completed a Lancair Legacy. It had a BALANCED new IO-360 that had 5 hours of run time on the dyno at Lycon. It had new P Mags which he very much wanted to use. The prop is an MT.

He hired a test pilot to fly the plane. The test pilot refused to fly the plane with the P Mags when they twice failed on takeoff. The plane now has slicks and 40 hours of trouble free flight time.

While I have been tremendously impressed with the design of the E and P Mags, the fact remains that they have issues.

There are clearly other EI on the market with a longer track record and more hours of trouble free operation. You might just consider Klaus. And if you have read the article about Paul Lipps, he was a consultant on the design of that EI.



Tom Hunter
 
RV7Guy said:
If I have future problems I will probably go to slick mags.
Click to expand...

Darwin, I sincerely hope that you are still around to make this swap after experiencing any further PMAG problem.;)

I guess being a helicopter pilot you're used to living on the edge.:D
 
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Oops! My mistake

cguarino said:
Isn't Mike Larkin the guy that has always been complaining about EMag? His problem was something more than the ignition. In fact, if he is the same guy, his engine vibrated so bad that it broke the case on a mag. That is why he tried the PMag and wonders why they wouldn't work for him. EMag kept giving him replacements and they kept breaking. Wonder why? Go fix your engine. Compare that to the 1000s of trouble free hours and you have to start looking at him. Just wanted to provide some additional info. If he is not the guy I'm thinking of then I apologize in advance, but I think he is. BTW, I have 250 hours on dual PMags and have only had one problem - a board fried itself on the ground between start and the mag check. Promptly and politely replaced by Brad and Tom.
Click to expand...

I need to apologize to Mike Larkin and his friends. I had him confused with Marc Zeitlin. Sorry Mike.
 
Darwin, I'm so glad to hear you're OK. I hope you were able to chase down the reason why you couldn't ground out the offending P-Mag. Mine can be disabled two different ways in flight if one of them messes the bed. As I said in my earlier posts, no manufacturer has an unspoilt record with electronic ignitions. It was YOUR FRIEND here in Independence (I won't mention names, but you know who he is) who was almost killed in an engine failure and subsequent off airport landing resulting from a dual simultaneous failure of brand new Lightspeeds. All of this is still in litigation. Although in this instance, the airframe was trashed, the FWF area was undamaged, allowing investigators an excellent opportunity to investigate the wiring, the installation and to replicate the failure of the system. There are a number (16, I believe) of other Lightspeed engine failure incidents also still in litigation with similar failure modes, I just met another guy on the ramp here yesterday who also has had multiple incidents with his Lightpseed on his (beautiful) RV-10. The fact that Barrett Engines recommends against installing Lightspeeds might give you some indication that all is not well too.

[ed. One paragraph here that questioned the intentions of the moderators removed here by Doug Reeves.]​
Instead of posting a wiring diagram that would allow other people to insure they CAN ground out or disable their P-Mag, we're bashing the system and irresponsibly warning of death and destruction. That just ain't right. C'mon people, let's work a little harder at being objective and learn to play a little better with others, it'll make our community better in the long run.
I'll finish this post with this thought...though I run P-Mags and have had no problem with them (yes, I sent them in for the updates), I am not a "defender" of them, I am skeptical of them as I am skeptical of every system in my airplane on every flight I take it on. I assume every system will fail and I try to have a backup plan in place for when it does. I am only for fair and unbiased treatments of the other systems out there, which we're not seeing now.
 
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Details

Tom Hunter said:
I finally have to add my .02 cents to this discussion. Gary Cotner is a freind of mine and had a beautiful airplane until it was destroyed after installing a replacement P Mag when the first one failed.

Another of my friends recently completed a Lancair Legacy. It had a BALANCED new IO-360 that had 5 hours of run time on the dyno at Lycon. It had new P Mags which he very much wanted to use. The prop is an MT.

He hired a test pilot to fly the plane. The test pilot refused to fly the plane with the P Mags when they twice failed on takeoff. The plane now has slicks and 40 hours of trouble free flight time.

While I have been tremendously impressed with the design of the E and P Mags, the fact remains that they have issues.

There are clearly other EI on the market with a longer track record and more hours of trouble free operation. You might just consider Klaus. And if you have read the article about Paul Lipps, he was a consultant on the design of that EI.



Tom Hunter
Click to expand...

So Tom,

With great respect I have to point out there are a few details that are missing in your description. You said "recently completed Legacy"...What does that actually mean as far as the PMags go?...Were they updated with the latest magnet affixing mod or were they an earlier version.

What was the failure mode?..Was it the P mags themselves or as a result of faulty wiring.

While I agree Pmags "have" had significant issues I cannot get to your conclusion that "they have issues".. They may still be failing and that was the reason for the question at the start of the thread..I.e are they still having issues with the latest mods and if so what are the failure modes?

Do you have any further details on the Legacy's units?

Frank
 
Bob Brown said:
There are a number (16, I believe) of other Lightspeed engine failure incidents also still in litigation with similar failure modes
Click to expand...

This is a VERY serious allegation.....sixteen cases of Lightspeed ignition failures being the subject of current litigation (ie current legal process).

The onus is now on you to support this allegation by revealing the source of your information. If you are unable to produce any real evidence to support your statement you might like to reflect a bit more on another statement you made, that being: "C'mon people, let's work a little harder at being objective and learn to play a little better with others, it'll make our community better in the long run."
 
Don't blast w/o the facts!

Today I had the opportunity to speak with Darwin about his P-mag issue.

First, let me say, he is going to write up the incident but before everyone goes off on why the P-mags are so evil, allow me to let you in on why one of them lost its timing mark.

Darwin had not sent his P-mags in for the required software and magnet updates.

In mid 2007 Emag Air requested all their ignitions be returned for a required software update, which eliminated the lost timing mark issue. Since that time they have also come out with another required hardware update to their magnet retention system. Between the two solutions, the lost timing problems people have experienced has been eliminated.

If you have not sent your E/P-mags in for the update, do not fly until you have done so. Contact Emag Air for details.
 
If you'll contact me offline, I have no problem giving you the name of the person I know who is involved in this situation, you can then resume your fact hunt with him, but it won't get very far, all he'll tell you after relating the details of his accident is to talk to his attorney. Surely you cannot be serious about "giving up" names of people involved in current litigation in a forum such as this. If it is your desire to document every failure of a Lightspeed ignition, I can help you start that list, but it will only be offline.

The point I have made repeatedly, and will stand by it, is that there is no such thing as a failure proof ignition, you can include magnetos on that list as well.

And Doug, I did not mean to insinuate the censors were biased, I don't think they are.
[ed. No harm no foul, Bob. I must have interpreted the earlier post incorrectly. My apologies. dr]
 
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P Mag's

No problems here! 180 hrs on (2) P-Mags with no issues! Would make the same choice on RV #2 If or when I build again!
Randy Utsey
N55CU / RV-7
Charlotte, N.C.
 
Bob Brown said:
There are a number (16, I believe) of other Lightspeed engine failure incidents also still in litigation with similar failure modes, I just met another guy on the ramp here yesterday who also has had multiple incidents with his Lightpseed on his (beautiful) RV-10. The fact that Barrett Engines recommends against installing Lightspeeds might give you some indication that all is not well too.
Click to expand...

Are you willing to describe what the proposed cause of the failure is so that others might prevent it, or would that simply cut into the lawyers list of potential meal tickets?
 
Steve, if I knew more about the exact causes of the failures or problems, I'd certainly share, I'm not trying to hide anything, I just don't have the facts insofar as what the failure modes are in these instances. I don't know if it's the way they were installed, wired, fused or designed...I only know people firsthand who have had engine stoppage, including downed aircraft. I furnished the info I do have (offline) to Bob Barrow. I'm not badmouthing Lightspeed, as someone said yesterday to me, when its running, the engine is "smooth like glass"...but like all these electrogizmoids, when they stop working, bad things can happen. I'm certainly not trying to protect the meal tickets of lawyers, those who know me know how I feel about having more than say three lawyers on earth...
 
Before we get all caught up in documenting all the failures of every ignition system known to aviation... maybe we could consider that one mag and one EI might be the reasonable solution...? Mags have a known life span, and have almost none of the same failure modes as the EI of your choice. Dual EI just seems to me to be asking for it, I've always felt this way.
 
I saw the problems associated with the blow tube method. Would I be correct in saying that anyone who has not sent their older units in for the prescribed fixes should at least set the timing using the manual (may not be the right term) method and NOT the blow tube method?
 
Just another opinion based on first hand experience...

In mid 2007 Emag Air requested all their ignitions be returned for a required software update, which eliminated the lost timing mark issue. Since that time they have also come out with another required hardware update to their magnet retention system. Between the two solutions, the lost timing problems people have experienced has been eliminated.
Click to expand...


I also like the P-Mag concept and very much want them to succeed. But my personal experience is that the above quote is not quite accurate. I had an in flight P-Mag failure at about 7 hours total flight time where my right side P-Mag lost its timing and began firing in a seemingly random manner. This happened on initial climb out and I was able to isolate the bad P-Mag pretty quickly (I didn't think of it at the time, but in hind sight it was obvious which side was malfunctioning since my tach reading is off the right P-Mag and the digital tach reading was jumping all over the place from 0 to 6000 RPM and everywhere in between). I did have a momentary total power loss when I turned off the "p-lead" switch on the good P-Mag in the effort to isolate the problem. The engine restarted with a loud backfire when I quickly flipped that switch back on but at less than pattern altitude, it was an un-nerving experience.

My P-Mags had been serviced with software upgrade in Jan 2008. I talked to the gentleman at E-Magair that looked at the magnets after the failure and he told me the failure was not an issue of magnets coming loose. I talked to Brad a week or two later and he said they replaced circuit boards and performed the magnet SB work in both P-mags (the good one and the failed one), along with latest software upgrades.

No real answer on what the root cause of my P-Mag failure was, but it was apparently not the magnet position and it was a Jan 2008 version of software; thus my disagreement with the quote above...I don't know if the problems are really solved as of now, but my experience is that there were/are still issues other than magnets after the 2007 upgrades.

In any case, I've been running the dual P-Mag setup again for a little over 15 trouble free hours since getting them back, but I have a new SB compliant impusle coupled Slick mag that I'm going to install on the left side very soon so I don't have to think about which P-Mag to secure if the engine goes rough like that again.
I'm undecided on whether I'll stay with a Slick / P-Mag setup or go fully to the more conventional dual Slicks setup.
 
I have never had good luck setting the timing on my P-Mags using the blow-tube method, I time them manually.

Regarding the wisdom of using one electronic ignition and one magneto, I think that's a great strategy in that it allows the best of both worlds. On the -10 I'm building, the current plan is to have two Bendix mags...perhaps by the time the engine is ready, I'll make the decision to run one electronic ignition, but I won't run two.
 
Bob Brown said:
Steve, if I knew more about the exact causes of the failures or problems, I'd certainly share........ I furnished the info I do have (offline) to Bob Barrow. I'm not badmouthing Lightspeed...
Click to expand...

Bob, thank you for the offline message. I think it is clear from your private message to me that the statement that Lightspeed is currently defending 16 cases of litigation over EI failures does not derive from any first hand credible source.

I think in all fairness to Lightspeed we should acknowledge that fact.

We should also acknowledge the fact that litigation is a sad and sorry part of the aviation game. Even the best and most reputable aviation companies including Vans and AeroSport Power will be forced to defend themselves from time to time. That they do so is not necessarily a sign that their products are dangerous or misconceived. In most cases they are simply defending themselves against opportunism and greed. When pilots smell smoke, lawyers smell money.:)

Incidentally, I'm with Stephen S as well. Putting two EIs on an engine is dancing with danger. One EI and one magneto for me. I'm so conservative and needing of a track record for anything attached to my engine that I opted for the Lightspeed Plasma 11 because I didn't think the newer Plasma 111 had enough runs on the board.

Funnily enough when I suggested to Klaus Savier at Lightspeed that I was opting for a Plasma 11 plus magneto he himself suggested the configuration had merit and even went as far as to suggest that the improvement in performance between one EI and two was very minimal. I actually found him to be very candid on the subject.
 
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Ron Lee said:
I saw the problems associated with the blow tube method. Would I be correct in saying that anyone who has not sent their older units in for the prescribed fixes should at least set the timing using the manual (may not be the right term) method and NOT the blow tube method?
Click to expand...

Bob Brown said:
I have never had good luck setting the timing on my P-Mags using the blow-tube method, I time them manually.
Click to expand...
Regarding the blow-in-the-tube method of setting the timing, the early issues with this were resolved and I have been setting mine that way for over 150 hours since they found and fixed that problem. Again, no failure yet.

Bob Brown said:
Regarding the wisdom of using one electronic ignition and one magneto, I think that's a great strategy in that it allows the best of both worlds. On the -10 I'm building, the current plan is to have two Bendix mags...perhaps by the time the engine is ready, I'll make the decision to run one electronic ignition, but I won't run two.
Click to expand...
I don't think running one E/P-mag and a traditional mag will do much good. Since the E/P-mags are not interconnected a failure of one will not impact the other. Thus you can shut one off and continue on.

Most all "lost timing" happens during the mag check and is noticed not during the check but on climb out. (That is when/how mine occurred.)

Simply isolating one E/P-mag and then the other will let you know which one is off. Should be running a traditional mag, you will still have to do this as mags are known to go bad as well.
 
Mattituck

Someone posted earlier that Barret Engines recommends against Lightspeed ignition..
I bought a brand new TMX red/gold IO 360 from Mattituck for my RV7A; it came with a mag and a Mattituck-installed Lightspeed plasma II. If Mattituck offers that as an option, it must be good enough for them....
 
One EI and one mag?

N941WR said:
I don't think running one E/P-mag and a traditional mag will do much good.
Click to expand...

I would sure be interested to read an objective analysis of how this would be beneficial. In this situation you have the mag firing at 25 degrees and the EI firing at a different (later) time in the same cylinder. Doesn't the firing of the mag effectively nullify the value of the later timing with the EI?
 
In normal usage, the EI should fire before the mag-----more advance.

If the Emag looses it timing and goes way retarded, yes, the mag should nullify the effect as you state.
 
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Oops

Mike S said:
In normal usage, the EI should fire before the mag-----more advance.

If the Emag looses it timing and goes way retarded, yes, the mag should nullify the effect as you state.
Click to expand...

Of course you are correct, I was thinking backwards (I blame my age). I would still like to understand the dynamics that occur in the cylinder in this configuration. What effect does the later later firing of the mag have on performance, cylinder temperature, etc.
 
SMO said:
Of course you are correct, I was thinking backwards (I blame my age). I would still like to understand the dynamics that occur in the cylinder in this configuration. What effect does the later later firing of the mag have on performance, cylinder temperature, etc.
Click to expand...

Practically none. The horse has left the barn. ;)
 
AeroSport

Geo said:
Someone posted earlier that Barret Engines recommends against Lightspeed ignition..
I bought a brand new TMX red/gold IO 360 from Mattituck for my RV7A; it came with a mag and a Mattituck-installed Lightspeed plasma II. If Mattituck offers that as an option, it must be good enough for them....
Click to expand...

Bart at Aerosport installed the Lightspeed Plasma 11 on my IO 360. (plus an impulse coupled mag on the left side). He recommended the configuration based on considerable previous experience over the years.

When I asked him in early 2007 about the possibility of installing PMAGS he was less than enthusiastic at that time.

I note however that he now offers Lightspeed, Electroair, and PMags, as options on his website. It would however be interesting to know whether his personal recommendations have altered since 2007.

In the end I suspect all of the engine assemblers, including Barrett, Mattituck and Aerosport, will put on whatever EI the customer wants if the customer threatens to go elsewhere. What they actually RECOMMEND based on their experience might be something else altogether.
 
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SMO said:
I would sure be interested to read an objective analysis of how this would be beneficial. In this situation you have the mag firing at 25 degrees and the EI firing at a different (later) time in the same cylinder. Doesn't the firing of the mag effectively nullify the value of the later timing with the EI?
Click to expand...

Mark,

I made that comment in terms of either the mag or a P-mag can lose its timing. So far there has not been a single case of both E/P-mags loosing their timing marks at the same time.

Should a pilot suspect an ignition problem, they will still have to cycle through both ignitions to isolate the problem.
 
The gain in efficiency of the second EI has been tested as minimal (much less than the first EI). Also the initial cost of the second EI is twice that of the mag, although ongoing 500hr inspections catch it up about overhaul time. Spark plug usage is reduced with the mag (Spark not as hot), while mags have plenty of failure modes in themselves, almost none of the conincide with the failure modes for an EI. I also prefer Bendix mags over Slicks, but they do weigh more, and cost more. Almost never have issues with either one, between 500 hr inspections.

Another thing that makes me wonder... Anyone still running Jeff Rose EI? I've worked on 2 or 3 different RV's with this system and it has NEVER hiccupped on those. Why such an issue with the "modern" EIs?
 
P-Mag / Slick setup

I don't think running one E/P-mag and a traditional mag will do much good. Since the E/P-mags are not interconnected a failure of one will not impact the other. Thus you can shut one off and continue on.

Most all "lost timing" happens during the mag check and is noticed not during the check but on climb out. (That is when/how mine occurred.)

Simply isolating one E/P-mag and then the other will let you know which one is off. Should be running a traditional mag, you will still have to do this as mags are known to go bad as well.
Click to expand...

True that mags fail on occasion, dual P-mags are not inter-connected, and two P-mags are unlikely to fail at same time. But I've had an in flight mag failure in the Cessna 140 I owned for about 5 years and I've had an in flight failure of a P-Mag at about 700' AGL on climb out (by the way, the mag failure was about 6 months after I bought the plane and on mag teardown it was apparent that the "500 hour" inspection in the log books from the annual before I bought it was less than thorough, if done at all....there were parts in there that were significantly worn and others that my A&P said should have been replaced in the 70's). The standard mag failure mode is very different than when a P-Mag loses its mind on timing.

I'm putting a Slick on one side so I can quickly isolate the remaining P-Mag if the engine gets rough like that again - no guessing which one is beating my engine up. In the event I see a similar failure again, this setup will minimize the time I'm subjecting my engine to the abuse of a randomly firing EI. If the problem turns out to be something other than the P-Mag, whether it's the standard mag or something else, I will have lost nothing.

I'm not knocking dual P-Mag setups if that's what the builder is comfortable with, but at this time I'm more comfortable with at least one standard mag so I'll change to that in the next 5 flight hours or so (also of some significance to my decision - my wife is not a big aviation fan to begin with and would like to have a more "standard" setup if she's going to fly with me!). So for me, the considerations above make the change worth the effort.

While less significant timing shifts vice random firing type failures may not be noticed on runup, I have no doubt that my P-Mag that failed on climb out was functioning properly during runup prior to that takeoff and during the initial climb. The onset was sudden and could not have been missed on runup or the first 700' of climb out.
 
Nothing in this thread for almost 3 years. Anyone have any recent experience with the E/P-mags? I keep playing with the idea of switching to them.

Mike
 
I think the thread has been inactive for more like three weeks, not three years.

I had dual mags, went to mag/E-Mag, now have E-mag/P-Mag. Wouldn't go back. Saving about 1.5 gph and have gained 5 mph top speed. MUCH easier starting and idle smoothness.

Now is a great time to switch as P-Mags are 30% off. That sale ends before Sun-n-Fun.

Bob Kelly
 
Gary Cotner of Collinsville,Ok totaled his T-18 last year because the Emag/Pmag failed on departure not much time to trouble shoot at the most critical part of flight.
 
So???

N184JG said:
Gary Cotner of Collinsville,Ok totaled his T-18 last year because the Emag/Pmag failed on departure not much time to trouble shoot at the most critical part of flight.
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I had an off field landing in a 7AC because of traditional mag failure. What's your point?

There are a lot of threads on this forum where we have beat this issue up. Maybe they need to be consolidated somehow. So we don't keep saying the same thing over and over.
 
Were your cyclinder new or nitri coated. I had a similiar thing happen and when the cyclinder was removed it looked fine. The coating came loose and under power the Piston would create fricton and the temps would go to 600. If power was reduced, temps would go down to 400.

Nothing to do with ignition.

Sam Butler
 
N64GH said:
Nothing in this thread for almost 3 years. Anyone have any recent experience with the E/P-mags? I keep playing with the idea of switching to them.

Mike
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Mike,

Welcome to the forum. Do a quick search and you find a lot of info.

The E/P-mags did have some problems, which had been addressed by Emag Air. This included FREE manditory software and hardware updates, all you had to do was pay $25 S&H.

Those who have kept up the the SB's haven't had any problems. Unfortunetly, some people haven't done so and have had problems.

Buy the P-mags now why they are on sale, you will be very happy with them.
 
Without any actual statistical facts on the failure rate of these units compared to traditional Mags, it comes down to speculation as to the progress that Emagair is making in eliminating the hardware and software issues of their units.

Re: the destruction of Gary Cotner's airplane: he flew it for 20 years with traditional mags. His problems with the E-P mags were not a one shot deal and they were supposedly fixed by the factory when they returned them to him when his plane ended up being grounded in Iowa on the way back from Oshgosh last summer. After he installed the new ones from the "factory", ground checked them, took off they failed.

Since the EI design manages the timing by software, a software failure can cause the engine immediately to fire at points other than designed by the engine manufacturer. When an engine is treated in this manner, it is not good for the engine. When a traditional mag fails, it typically exhibits a drop in excess of what you expect when you do your Mag check on run up. So you have some warning.

If you are installing a new Hartzell CS prop and you install an E or Pmag your warranty is voided. Of course this would only be important if you are installing a brand new prop.

You can gain 80% of the "advantages" of dual E-P mags by running one and a tradional mag. HOWEVER "If" the E-P mag looses its timing and you don't diagnose and correct the errant out of timing firing of your engine immediately, you may damage your engine. And if, when this happens, you have your wife on board, or daughter (like Gary Cotner did when it first started to act up) you'll not enjoy the experience and they'll like it even less.

Saving fuel is wonderful. Having an uneventful flight is priceless.

Tom Hunter
530 hours on Slicks.
4.9 GPH at 160 on Lycon IO-320
 
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