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MT versus Hartzell

While Hartzell data may indeed point to best speed at high rpm with their products, the same may not and does not appear to be true for MT products. At least 4 other people on this forum and other forums have stated from FLIGHT TESTING that lower rpms with their MTs results is higher cruise speeds despite obviously lower engine hp. MTs may be suffering a large drop in efficiency at higher mach numbers.

Hartzell data may not have any relation to MT performance. I'll wait for Jim's flight test data. Enough conjecture on this topic already.
 
You use the word efficiency but are not stating whether you are referring to prop efficiency or engine efficiency. For a given speed, high MAP and low rpm is more efficient since low MAP/high rpm has more pumping loss across the partial throttle plate. But that has nothing to do with prop efficiency. The statement I referred to is that the "drag" of a prop was higher at higher rpm, and that wasn't addressed in your posting. The only "drag" that a prop has that I know of is the parasite drag, and with the proper selection of airfoils and loading, the L/D can be 9:1-10:1, regardless of rpm. To iterate, prop efficiency is mainly tied to loading, tip shape and Mach, along with streamlined root sections. And with all this prop theory and advance ratios, thrust and power coefficients and whatever, how is it that these prop makers couldn't turn out a prop with 90% or more efficiency as I have? The one you show tops out at about 85%!
 
Kevin Horton said:
Jim,

(Stuff Cut)
I will assume that the Lycoming power chart is correct, and that you have accurately followed it to set 65% power. If so, your test results suggest that the prop efficiency increases as the rpm decreases. This is not surprising. For any given power and altitude, there will be an rpm where the prop efficiency is greatest, and hence were the speed will be highest.

I obtained a power chart from Lycoming for my O-360 engine and used their RPM/MAP settings to obtain 65% power at each RPM.
I assumed their chart was correct, also. :)

Regards,
Jim Ayers
 
hartzell prop application chart

gmcjetpilot said:


george --

where did you get the quoted chart? i'm not questioning it's veracity, but i'm getting ready to order my prop, and i don't wanna screw it up. i'm installing a mattituck io-360 with forward facing sump, which is very close to the lycoming io-360-m1b, a 180 horse engine. according to the chart, i should use the 7497 instead of the 7496. but van's says the 180 horse should use the 7496 and the 200 hp the 7497. (see my confusion?)

i asked the hartzell sales dude at oshkosh, but he didn't know nothin'. he opened up a book that showed the 7497 as appropriate for the -m1a, but he didn't have a sheet on the m1b. i also can't find the chart on either van's or hartzell's site. so, where'd you get it?

thanks for answering.
 
Yep I can answer, but give Hartzell a call

johnp said:
george --

where did you get the quoted chart? i'm not questioning it's veracity, but i'm getting ready to order my prop, and i don't wanna screw it up. i'm installing a mattituck io-360 with forward facing sump, which is very close to the lycoming io-360-m1b, a 180 horse engine. according to the chart, i should use the 7497 instead of the 7496. but van's says the 180 horse should use the 7496 and the 200 hp the 7497. (see my confusion?)

i asked the hartzell sales dude at oshkosh, but he didn't know nothin'. he opened up a book that showed the 7497 as appropriate for the -m1a, but he didn't have a sheet on the m1b. i also can't find the chart on either van's or hartzell's site. so, where'd you get it?

thanks for answering.
John call Hartzell they are super nice and really can explain. The chart is new and from Hartzell. Had the same question. The 7497 is the newest blade and just was certified in the last few months, first of the year. That is why you may not have heard of it yet. The 7496 BA blade and came first, its great. The new BA 7497 blade has more metal in it, thicker to affect a change in its harmonics or ?tuning fork? characteristics. The good news, it has less or no restrictions, but it's a slightly heavier blade and performance might take a slight hit, due to increased blade thickness. The engineer told me the difference in top speed would be hard for most to detect he estimated, in the data "noise" or scatter as they say, meaning negligible. They have not done side-by-side testing, but when you add blade thickness you expect to affect performance. In this case its value added. We are splitting hairs. Weight? I forgot what he said, but it should not be significant to any one.

Van may not have the prop listed yet buy you should be able to order it, even if its not in their catalog yet. All props are drop shipped direct from hartzell any way. Its not like Van stocks them. I think the price should be the same. They use the same blank and just machine it differently I believe.

In my opinion you can't go wrong with either, they are BA Hartzell made for RV's. I'd probably go 7497 since weight is not an issue and a fraction of a MPH is not going to kill me. If I already had a 7496, I'd be happy with that. However I'm still rocking the old 7666 blade. I have plans for a BA prop.

All the best & you'll love your prop. G
 
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Bill

I also have a high compression parellel valve 360 Lycoming that I had built a few months prior, and if I knew then what I know now I would have not went any higher than 8.7 to 1.

As far as i am aware Hartzell propellors has not tested blended airfoil propellors running high compression. Even though you will be within tolerable horsepower range your engine still could overstress the blades running those pistons. I am told it is harmonics and resonance (torsional vibration)that damage blades and cause blades to disappear from the nose of your aircraft not horsepower.

So what are we to do? Run MT because the wood/composite is less likely to be damaged by the effects of high compression because of its ability to dampen resonence. Or rip the cylinders back off of our 360's and through in those 8.7's and fly safe behind a Hartzel.

Like Bill; I also am looking for some advice or experience on this subject
 
Good question

Bill

I also have a high compression parellel valve 360 Lycoming that I had built a few months prior, and if I knew then what I know now I would have not went any higher than 8.7 to 1.

As far as i am aware Hartzell propellors has not tested blended airfoil propellors running high compression. Even though you will be within tolerable horsepower range your engine still could overstress the blades running those pistons. I am told it is harmonics and resonance (torsional vibration)that damage blades and cause blades to disappear from the nose of your aircraft not horsepower.

So what are we to do? Run MT because the wood/composite is less likely to be damaged by the effects of high compression because of its ability to dampen resonence. Or rip the cylinders back off of our 360's and through in those 8.7's and fly safe behind a Hartzel.

Like Bill; I also am looking for some advice or experience on this subject
That is true Hartzell has not tested higher compressions. I talked to the engineers and high compression may change the harmonic characteristics of the prop/engine combo, but the affect is not drastic. It makes a little more power but does not change the frequancy or pulse drastically like going from Mag to EI.

The affect of the electronic ignition (they only tested one brand BTW lightspeed) has a greater affect. However you're absolutly right, as you say its an unknown. Well actually its a partial unknown. The engineer I talked to said a bump in compression might expand or move critical RPMs up slightly higher.

Just stay out of the corner of the envelope. Look at the typical limits for other props. Its 2,700 rpm and at lower RPM's in the 2,250 rpm under range, especially with over MAP pressure. Keep it in the middle of the normal operating range 2,300-2,600 rpm and MAP approx square or under. That is wild freaking guessing on my part, but it comes from the conversation I had with Hartzell about this topic. Again I encourage you to call them. They did not express concern BUT the only way to know for sure is do flight test. None have been done and none planned as far as I know.

I think you are over stressing (pun intended). :rolleyes: 8.7:1 compression is very very mild and the affect will be limited. Stock is 8.5:1. If you get the better 7497 blade (better in that it's thicker, heavier and less susceptible to harmonic limits) and try not to fly at 2,700 rpm all day, all the time, you will be fine. Even the 7496 is fine in my opinion, but guaranteed unlimited fatigue life with out testing is not possible.

The older HC2YK/F7666 with the most restrictions with EI (or even with Mags) is good for I recall 8,000 hours. The new BA airfoil, specifically the newer of the new 7497 is designed for EI and well tested and understood. Criteria is unlimited fatigue life or hours. In fact the 7497 works on the IO360 angle valve with 8.7:1 compression. That is what it was designed for.

Are you also using electronic ignition. The affect of the compression alone from my understanding is not as drastic the change for adding EI. Call Hartzell engineering. They will be glad to help you. I have a feeling they will give you warm fuzzies, but not scientific absolute.

Now the guys going super radical high compression, different cam grinds, dual lightspeed's, cold sump, 4-into-1 exhaust are pushing the unknown scale much more. The last item, 4-into-1 is an unknown I thought about, which affects me. I realized Power Flow makes 4-into-1 exhaust for factory planes as an aftermarket STC. They claim higher hp. The FAA did not require a prop change. I don't think they check the prop harmonics. For some reason the EI makes the biggest change. Its not as much the greater power as much as the PULSE. Compression tends to possibly aggravate but not make big changes, with in limits.

Hope I calmed you down a little. :D I'm pretty conservative. I wouldn't hesitate to fly in you plane this year or 5 years from now. As long as you maintain the prop and engine and operate it properly, the prop will wear out from erosion well before fatigue is factor. Be sure to keep the prop free of nicks and gouges, grease the hub per hartzell's recommendation and fly regualarly. There are a lot of factors of safety and margins built into the prop and engine that make existing limits for the know configurations conservative. Also there are lots of guys with way more radical compressions and set ups flying with BA props. One of their props will fly off well before yours does. :eek:
 
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long run

Hey George,
I see I started this post over two and a half years ago.

Does that beat the record for your longest running post.

Pete.

PS. I agree. Just because Hartzell hasn't tested High Comp pistons doesn't mean it's all going to fly apart. They just haven't checked.
P.
 
Which model M propeller?

A mate has just swapped his Hartzell for an MT prop and has lost 10KT of cruise speed. Has any one had a similar experience with the MT.

Hi Peter,

Glad you could join back in on what you started.

What aircraft type and engine were you talking about?

What model Hartzell did your friend have?
And what model MT propeller did he try?

Regards,
Jim Ayers
 
RV8 Hartzell to MT

My mates aircraft is an RV-8 with Angle Valve.

I don't know the Model Number of the props, but it was a TWO bladed Hartzell (from a Mooney) to a THREE Bladed MT.

My RV7 with a TWO bladed MT seemed about 3KT slower than an identical engined RV7 with a Blended TWO bladed Hartzell, side by side on the Cruise at 7,000'.

The significant difference, to me after flying 160hrs, was that stone damage (Not many sealed strips in Australia) to the MT tore the Vinyl (?) sheathing on the Blades and dinted the Stainless LE strip. By comparasion, you can file a lot of damage out of an Aloominum prop.

MT prop. Lovely prop, but very delicate.

Pete.
PS. You should do a search on this forum under Props. THere has been a lot of good info, from people much more knowlegeable than me.

P.
 
Aloominum, Aluminium, Aluminum

Well, Mike.
I was just trying to get it phonetically correct.

Was I close?

Pete.
 
So....

what I have read it would be in my best interest to go with a Hartzell BA prop due to cost, repairability, speed? RV7 With Superior XPI0360 w/fwdsump. I am not into researching too much and the various (numerous) manufactures just gives me a headache. Like everyone else, I believe, I want to go the fastest, most economically, and less money spent. Just trying to keep working at my paying job just to be able to fly.
 
Wow!!!!!

And I thought those British guys spelled aluminum weirdly.

Back in rural Minnesota where I grew up, the old Germans telling hunting, fishing and other stories around an old pot belly stove in the evening in the local auto repair garage called that new stuff in airplanes ALUMEEMUM.

An uncle was serious offering me a job driving one of his mail trucks instead of flying for the USAF...it was a better job, safer, had holidays off , home every night and could take the dogs out racoon hunting most every night during season. Maybe he was right. Life is life where ever you are. :)
 
MT prop performance

Jim Ayers, late last fall you posted that you were going to do some flight testing of the various props. Did that happen, and if so, what were your findings.
As you may know, I built an RV-7A with an MT prop. I had a great experience with the MT prop on my 10, and in side-by-side flights with other 10's, including van's, it appeared that performance was really close to the Hartzell BA. The smoothness was really wonderful, probably helped along by the 6 cylinder engine, too.
The performance on the 7A does not seem to be as close. The engine is a brand new O-360-A-1A from Van's, that was sent to Barrett for porting, balancing, flow matching, and 9:1 pistons. It dynoed at 189 HP.
Here are some recent numbers, gained using the box GPS method and tracking 4 ground tracks 90 degrees apart.

Altitude: 4670'
Temp: 62F
MP: 25.2"
RPM: 2500
Fuel Flow: 12.2 gph
TAS: 191 mph

Altitude: 7500'
Temp: 51F
MP: 22.8"
RPM: 2400
Fuel Flow 11.2 gph
TAS: 189 mph

It appears that I am about 10-15 mph slower than Van's at 75% power, and I might actually be above 75% power here (got to love the lycoming power charts!).

By the way, if anyone with a Hartzell BA prop is interested in coming to Mallards Landing (GA04) some Saturday/Sunday and swapping props for a direct comparison, I am game. :)

Vic
 
Yes, that's why I made the offer out to anyone to swap with a Hartzell BA for a day and settle it. I have many thougsands of hours in RV's, and the 7A is slower with the MT prop. I wouldn't state that here if I didn't think it was so. I've been a very avid supporter of the MT props, as I was especially satisfied with it on the RV-10. Unfortunately, both Jim Ayers and Gerd at MT are not very receptive to hearing that. Lot's of extra data is needed, supposedly. Not really. I think, but don't know for sure, that the RV-10 blades were designed for the RV-10. At least that is what Eric at MT told me when I first purchased it. I think that the blades we are using for the other Rv's may not have been specifically designed for them, and perhaps aren't quite as efficient. Mine appears to be about 10-15 knots slower than I am used to seeing at similar power settings. I'll try to get some more numbers here in the not-too-distant future and post them here. It's a little hard to set aside a couple of hours for flight testing on the week ends after having had my wife spend every week end with me since last September building it. I'm now trying to take her places on the week ends. Oh, and I get to fly, too. :)

It's not like I am really upset about it. The prop is still really smooth, and 10 knots doesn't make that much of a difference on a 2-3 hour flight. But the attitude about it really rankles me, and from the response I got from Gerd at OSH tells me he is overly sensitive to it.

Vic
 
Vic,
Your not upset about 10 knots?:( Man dont let Bob Axom read that!.
You are right on on all points based on my experience Vic. Only a bolt on the same plane comparison with good telemetry tells the tale. Been there done that.

Jamie, what do you say we take a Saturday and go bolt your prop onto Vics bird? This would be a good test bed.
 
Vic,
Your not upset about 10 knots?:( Man dont let Bob Axom read that!.
You are right on on all points based on my experience Vic. Only a bolt on the same plane comparison with good telemetry tells the tale. Been there done that.

Jamie, what do you say we take a Saturday and go bolt your prop onto Vics bird? This would be a good test bed.

I would be glad to help. Better yet, Vic and I could swap props and he could fly mine, I could fly his and we could confirm his prop is slower.

I know that Vic sold a Hartzell prop to Steve Ashby who still has it in his house. If we don't want to swap completely we could probably just get that prop from Steve and run it down to Mallards in my truck, or Vic could come to LZU and we could swap it out there.
 
Vic I think we have rousted up some troups and volunteers for you.
Lets take the planning off-line and report back the results.
Ill supervise:eek:
 
On my EVO rocket I recently changed from a three blade MT to a two blade Hartzell. The blades are the same as those used for the RV10 but the hub is different. I picked up 8 knots at full power. This was confirmed by using a chase plane before and after the prop swap. At lower power settings, say 55%, there is not much difference in speed. The Hartzell really shows it's stuff at 24 squared and above. The good news, and unexpected, is that this new Hartzell prop is as smooth as the MT. I have quite a bit of time behind MTs, and the old Hartzell, and there is no doubt about the improvement in this new propellor.
 
Count me in

I am game. Just let me know if you want me to bring my (formerly Vic's) Hartzell to the party. I do not have a spinner fitted to it yet. I used to go by the motto of one of our RVers, "None of it flys until all of it flys", but I can't say that anymore since Jamie borrowed my pitot tube to iron our the bugs in his pitot static system. If you use my (formerly Vic's) prop, then I can test fly my ship in sections. I wonder if the FAA will let me count that towards my 40 hours? Hmm. Just let me know the day and I will be there.
 
Grat, Steve. I've offered up the 13th or 27th of September at my place, depending on weather. I'll throw hamburgers on the grill, and Stearman rides, too. :)

Kahuna and Jaime, I think in an earlier PM I mentioned the 20th. My wife has since informed me that the 20th is our Community Fly In. You are certainly invited, but I won't be able to spend time swapping props. I usually give Stearman and Young Eagle rides most of the day.

Vic
 
the 27th works for me

Vic,
I can come on the 27th, but no can do on the 13th. If that works for you, Jamie and Kahuna, let me know.
 
What? Hartzell faster, can't be...

On my EVO rocket I recently changed from a three blade MT to a two blade Hartzell. The blades are the same as those used for the RV10 but the hub is different. I picked up 8 knots at full power. This was confirmed by using a chase plane before and after the prop swap. At lower power settings, say 55%, there is not much difference in speed. The Hartzell really shows it's stuff at 24 squared and above. The good news, and unexpected, is that this new Hartzell prop is as smooth as the MT. I have quite a bit of time behind MTs, and the old Hartzell, and there is no doubt about the improvement in this new propellor.

8 Knots more than with the Hartzell!

Thank you. That is what I have been saying for a few years. I almost got death threats from MT propeller proponents. MT makes a fine prop of its type, which is unique and has pros and cons, but speed in NOT one of MT's pros. Also three blades is also NOT a speed secret in the HP and speeds we run.

I also have found if you have an engine that is reasonably balanced, connected to a well balanced Hartzell, than you get very smooth operation, at least in the operating range. Not quite the "FEEL" of a wood prop like a MT, but not much can compare to God's Composite, wood. On the other hand Aluminum is a pretty awesome material to make a plane or prop from. Does any one disagree that aluminum is awsome? ha-ha :D
 
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Comparison

By the way, if anyone with a Hartzell BA prop is interested in coming to Mallards Landing (GA04) some Saturday/Sunday and swapping props for a direct comparison, I am game. :)

Vic

Interested in comparing a McCauley???????????? PM me.
 
Props MADE just for RV's

Interested in comparing a McCauley???????????? PM me.

McCauley for some reason is not interested in supporting the kit plane market. Try buying one at a discount. Hartzell offers a heck of a deal through Vans.

I wanted a McCauley for my RV long ago, but was talked out of it by several. For the 4-cylinder Lycs you can run a McCauley on a RV, but it's a pain because of the way the spinner attaches. Also the performance on RV's from what I know of, with the few RV's with McCauley's, is not up to a standard Hartzell. Compairing a McCauley to a Hartzell blended airfoil (BA), made for RV's, the McCauley would be left in the dust.

McCauley does not refine their props for the speeds and power we run with RV's. Only two companies I know of actually design, engineer and tested props JUST for the RV, Sensenich and Hartzell. That extra 2 to 5 percent is the fine tuning and tailoring to RV's that Hartzell has done, as opposed to a generic props from the GA fleet.
 
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MT MTV15 vs Hartzell Blended Airfoil

Wondering if anyone has a comparison between these two propellers.
The MTV15B/183 is an aluminum prop not composite and was recommended to me by MT for my IO360 180hp w/dual electronic ignition.


My MT which after a re-sealing of the blades at 70hrs and now 125hrs TT is still spewing grease. MT says some grease will come out but it seems excessive again. Thinking about just replacing the prop.
 
On this Hartzell vs MT comparison, here is some data I gathered while doing Flight Testing on an airframe using an IO-360 Series 180 HP Lycoming;

Using the same baseline Flight Test a/c article (i.e. same s/n and no other Mods but the propellers), the following 4 propellers were tested:

MTV-12-B/180-17
MTV-12-B/183-59b
Hartzell 74 [in] 2 blade metal propeller
Hartzell 76 [in] 2 balde composite propeller (?canoe paddles?)

All test data was obtained in a stable non-turbulent air mass with a near standard lapse rate and no inversions; The engine mixture setting was set at 150?F rich (best power) and power was calculated from a digital power model I created from the Lycoming published nominal power chart for the tested engine.

Test points were gathered from about 1.3 Vs to the MCP maximum level airspeed for the tested density altitude and same aircraft configurations (i.e. clean). Data was only collected when all parameters had been stable for a few minutes.

All data was reduced to referred power and referred speed using test BHP, SAT (Static Air Temperature), pressure altitude and, test point weight at time of measurement (a/c was weighed prior to the Flight Test and fuel burned taken from the totalizer). This method essentially brings the data to sea level standard day condition at a unique reference weight (usually max T-O weight); Hence, we are in a position to compare apples with apples.

All test instrumentation had recently been calibrated.

Assuming the MTV-12-B/180-17 as the baseline propeller, that is what I observed for
180 BHP(REFERRED):

- Hartzell 2 blade metal prop: +4.5 KEAS
- MTV-12-B/183-59b: +6.0 KEAS
- Hartzell 2 blade composite: +6.0 KEAS

Further analysis for that that airframe w/MTV-12-B/183-59b propeller revealed that the peak efficiency of that configuration using 135 BHP corresponded to an RPM following :

RPMPEAK = 2450 + (pressure altitude/100)
 
propeller test data

On this Hartzell vs MT comparison, here is some data I gathered while doing Flight Testing on an airframe using an IO-360 Series 180 HP Lycoming;

Using the same baseline Flight Test a/c article (i.e. same s/n and no other Mods but the propellers), the following 4 propellers were tested:

MTV-12-B/180-17
MTV-12-B/183-59b
Hartzell 74 [in] 2 blade metal propeller
Hartzell 76 [in] 2 balde composite propeller (?canoe paddles?)

Which Hartzell 2 blade metal propeller?
Did it have the older 7666-2 blades, or the newer blended airfoil Hartzell propeller?

Jim Ayers
 
7497 blades (metal), Scimitar
7605 blades (composite), Scimitar

Note that these tests results have been verified to be within ?1% accuracy which value can increase if the same baseline a/c is not used; Therefore, the three propellers being 1.5 KEAS apart is say within that accuracy figure which leads to say that they are essentially exequo within engineering accuracy.
 
In addition, in the interest of science that a/c T-O weight was slightly under 3000 lb and had a Vh shy of 153 KEAS.
 
What airframe were the tests performed in? The Hartzell guys here won't buy the info here unless it was done in an RV.
 
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I whish I could, but unfortunately I am not allowed to give that specific of an information; However I can add that Vs (clean) for that a/c is around 54 KEAS; However, it gives some comparative info and some some idea of the method that could be used with an RV to compare apples with apples. As you know, in performance flight testing, discipline and rigor is key to obtain useful data when you compare very small differences on a parameter such as Vh.

Essentially that method calculates PIW (referred power) and VIW (referred speed) at each data point and, defining a characteristic equation for each propeller a plot of PIW vs VIW is made (say in EXCEL); Then, you draw a horizontal line at PIW = 180 HP (or Max Continuous power of your powerplant) that intersects all propeller curves. At each intersection point a vertical line is dropped on the VIW horizontal axis and, that yields your Vh for each corresponding propeller [max standard sea level (29.92 inHg and 59?F) KEAS at Max Continuous Power and Max Take-Off Weight].

This is only one comparison point, but it is the point of the Max KTAS for a naturally aspirated powerplant.

Some definitions for those that would want to use that method:

1) PIW = BHPt * (sigma)^0.5 / (Wt/Ws)^1.5

2) VIW = EAS / (Wt/Ws)^0.5

where,

PIW = Referred Power, [HP]
BHPt = Engine BHP at test point (obtained from engine manufacturer power chart), [HP]
sigma= density ratio at test point, [dimensionless]
Wt= a/c weight at test point, [lb]
Ws= Reference weight (usually T-O weight), [lb]
VIW= Referred speed, [Kt]
EAS= Equivalent Airspeed (CAS could be used for a/c under 200 KTAS), [Kt]


If no engine power chart is available, you can use:

3) BHPt = BHPwot-ssl * (8.55*sigma-1) / 7.55

where,

BHPwot-ssl= Standard Sea Level Max Power (Wide Open Throttle ? WOT), [HP]


sigma = delta / theta

delta = (1 - 6.87535 * 10^-6 * Hp)^5.2561

theta = (SAT + 459.67) / 518.67

where,

delta = Pressure ratio, [dimensionless]
theta = Temperature Ratio, [dimensionless]
SAT = Static Air Temperature (use OAT under 200 KTAS), [?F]
Hp = Pressure Altitude (set the altimeter to 29.92), [ft]
 
Rocket with a BA degree...

Tom,

I have always wondered how the RV10 2 blade would do on a Rocket. I have the standard 2 Blade Hartzell paddle F twist and am interested in a new prop sometime, sounds like the ticket. Could you tell me hub serial number and blades you used?

Smokey
HR2
 
The prop is a DHC-M2YR-1BFPX with F8068DX blades. This is one of the smoothest props that I have flown behind including the MT. It is also less expensive, all aluminium and domestic. Contact Mark Fredrick at Team Rocket for pricing.
It was nice meeting you at the AirVenture rocket safety seminar. Keep in touch.
 
Prop me up...

Thanks Tom,
I emailed Hartzell and their quote for two 8068D blades for my extended hub at $3110 each, not including mounting them in my hub! The Vans price for an entire prop with hub for the RV10 is $6510. Wow, quite spendy. I'll check with Mark, thanks alot!

Smokey
HR2
PS: Nice meeting you at OSH as well!
 
The Numbers...

Tom,

Les Doud at Hartzell ran computer numbers comparing my Hartzell 8475D 2 blade with the 8068D blades. Here is what he sent..

Smokey
HR2

Rob,

I ran two conditions:

1. 8500 ft, 192 KTAS (195 mph indicated), 200 Hp @ 2400 RPM

2. S.L., 204 KTAS (235 mph), 285 Hp @ 2700 RPM


The 8068:

1. 88.4%, 300 lbs.
2. 88.3%, 402 lbs


The 8068D:

1. 88.9%, 302 lbs.
2. 89.1%, 405 lbs.


Although the efficiency/thrust numbers are close, the blade loading is more optimal on the "D" twist which should have favorable installation effects (lower drag). To my knowledge nobody has tested an 8475J-4 or an 8475D-4 two blade back-to-back with an 8068D. The only testing I'm aware of is what I did with Paul Seigel on his F-1 and what Tom Martin did, both started with an MT prop.

The other (hopeful) benefit of this blade is I married it with the DHC- hub indexing to lower cabin vibration levels. Based on Paul and Tom's feedback it appears the new prop is on par with the MT for smoothness. Again, only someone testing back-to-back with an HC- prop will be able to qualify the improvement relative to what we've been selling.

Respectfully,

Les Doud
Propeller Integration Engineer
Hartzell Propeller Inc.
Phone: 937-778-4262
Fax: 937-778-4321
 
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BA Prop

Smokey,
I have seen the prop on Tom's EVO and it's impressive. It makes the plane look sinister. This was the combo I was working with Kevin Karem at Hartzell when I was trying to get a prop for my EVO. If your airplane has not used it's OEM agreement with Vans then you can order a prop through them for your highly modified RV-4:eek:. My dad bought his Rocket prop through them as well for his modified RV-4. Also, did you see the oil cooler pics I posted for you? Aden.
 
Thanks!

I have chatted with Mark Frederick about buying the prop through him. I hesitated buying it from Van's as the RV10 prop has a shorter hub, I believe. However, I never thought of it being for my "RV4". Hmmmm

Where did you post the oil cooler pics?

Smokey
HR2
 
BA Prop

I posted the cooler pics in the Rocket forum under "Friends High Oil Temps". It's the last entry.
You don't have to order the RV-10 prop. When my dad ordered his, he just gave them the hub and blade model and they came back with a price. We did this in person so we got the raised eyebrows look when we said it was for a RV-4 with a 260hp engine. But if your Rocket has a kit number from Van's attached to it then you can order it through them. Maybe you can get the same price from Mark but it's worth a try.

Aden
 
Prop me up...

Thanks Aden, I'm on it. Seems like a $6500 gamble for a few knots. It may go slower, but that's what I love about trying new stuff.

I can always sell the old prop, it's good to go and polished!

Smokey
HR2

Did your Dad use the same hub serial number as Tom in the earlier post?
 
BA Prop

He used the HC-M2YR-1BF hub which is the extended hub for the Rocket. They gave it to him for the same price as the regular props which was suprising at the time. I want to say he paid 6000 about 5 years ago. I need to get the same hub for my RV-6 since I am using the Sam James cowling. I have the regular hub on my BA prop.
 
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