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Do It Yourself; Complying With The Nose Wheel SB

Geico266

Geico266

Well Known Member
I would like to start a thread specifically for doing the nose gear modification yourself. For those of us that can turn a wrenh and run a cut off saw I think this mod is a doable project right in the hanger.

1. Order Parts. You'll need either the new style front fork, new style front gear or both depending on the year of your "A" model RV. You'll need to figure out which by reading the web site or calling Vans. It's easy. Make sure the parts are all here before you start to minimize down time. http://www.vansaircraft.com/index.htm

2. Order a threading die. This is tough material so IMHO don't order just a thread chasing nut. Sources for the die sould be coming up later in this thread.


3. Jack up the plane (securly) so you can work on the nose wheel.

4. Remove Wheel Pants, Wheel, & Old Fork.

5. Remove gear from aircraft. Threading is going to be a fairly tough job requiring a stable / secure vise to hold the gear while you are threading.

I plan on using a 3+" threading die and a big 3-4' die handle. I see no reason why a guy could not thread the shaft another 1" (or what ever the measurement is) and cut off the part that we need to get rid of with a sawsall.
 
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Don't do it...

Hi Larry/everybody,
I spoke with Harmon Lange (Langair) this morning and he told me that he was surprised that anybody could thread that gear leg by hand since it's 6150 Chrome vanadium, hardened to Rockwell 44. He went on to say that it is the most user unfriendly steel he's worked with, and he said that a die would more than likely "tear" at the metal, even a split, adjustable die, so they use a milling machine with a very hard cutter. He also said that if someone messes up the threads trying to do their own, don't send it to him.

Don't shoot the messenger,
 
How does he do that?

pierre smith said:
Hi Larry/everybody,
I spoke with Harmon Lange (Langair) this morning and he told me ......
Click to expand...

Did he say how he does it? Does he remove the heat treat, cut the threads, and then re-heat treat? Would not fault him if he does not say how he does it as it is his livelyhood.

If you cut your own threads make sure you remove the stress risers at the end of the newly cut threads.
 
Didn't say...

........how he does it specifically but it is a vertical milling machine as I recall and uses a very hard titanium carbide (I don't recall exactly what metal) or similar cutter. He said that he thought some EAA chapters might buy the cutters at around $150 each and do several airplanes. I mentioned that some EAA chapters don't have several tri-gear RV's. He also said that if you did in fact thread it that it is very hard to cut off the bottom end of the strut as well.

He doesn't have many takers yet, either.
 
I am waiting to remove my gear leg for a few more weeks.
There may be some more good flying weather in Ohio.
I'll decide who modifies the leg at that time.

As an input, I emailed Langair about my nose gear leg
stiffener. They answered that if it was in the way, they
would remove it and send it back with the modified gear
leg.

Important: They thought if I wanted to reuse it, it would be
better if I removed it before shipping.

Tom
 
Gear Leg Modification

I have 8 hours to fly off of my 40 and about that time I will be due for my annual. I have ordered the new fork part from Van's and will send the gear leg to the company for modification. So when I do the annual I will take care of all changes that need to be done.
 
pierre smith said:
Hi Larry/everybody,
I spoke with Harmon Lange (Langair) this morning and he told me that he was surprised that anybody could thread that gear leg by hand since it's 6150 Chrome vanadium, hardened to Rockwell 44. He went on to say that it is the most user unfriendly steel he's worked with, and he said that a die would more than likely "tear" at the metal, even a split, adjustable die, so they use a milling machine with a very hard cutter. He also said that if someone messes up the threads trying to do their own, don't send it to him.

Don't shoot the messenger,
Click to expand...

Rockwell 44 while hard, is not as hard as a threading die around Rockwell 65. I know of others (on this web site) who have done it themselves, but I'm all ears when it comes to advice on how to do it. That's why I started the thread.
 
Do it...

Geico266 said:
Rockwell 44 while hard, is not as hard as a threading die around Rockwell 65. I know of others (on this web site) who have done it themselves, but I'm all ears when it comes to advice on how to do it. That's why I started the thread.
Click to expand...

You're right. I had a machinist come by this morning and looked at it. He asked for a file and promptly cut a small vee in the end of the nosegear on the threaded end and said, "Bring it to me and I'll thread it for you. It's not harder than a die." What was the die size again?

Regards,
 
Hard vs Tough

While the threading die may be harder than the gear leg, the steel in the leg is tough. To illustrate the difference between hard and tough; we all have had a tough steak that we can't chew through, but it was not hard.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A 470 hours
(on grass)
 
Hi Larry (aka Geico266),

Reference you comment about leaving the gear on the leg to cut the threads: I tried my best to do just that but could not find a way to adequately stabilze the leg--nor did it allow me to get in a position to apply sufficient torque to my 2' die fixture to be able to cut the threads--maybe you can figure a better way but I punted and pulled the leg, blocked it up tight in a vise (wood blocks) and secured the other end to the bench. This way I was able to "point" the threaded portion up and gave me the best angle to apply torque to the fixture. I have to say it was not easy but after about an hour (I took a couple of short breaks), 2 or 3 passes with the adjustable threader and a lot of cutting oil I had the extra 1 inch of threads needed. The excess leg was cut off with a metal cutting band saw like you can purchase from Harbor Freight--the kind that has the pivoting cutting head so the blade can be either vertical or horizontal--I think they call them electric hack saws--took the saw about 3 minutes in the horizontal position.

Good luck!!

Cheers,

db
 
I must say that you guys in the USA have pretty easy choices to make to do this modification. The obvious choice is to send it to Langair. For overseas RVers it is more of a problem. It will take an extra 2 weeks due to freight and has to be sent both ways by FedEx or equivalent at considerable cost (read hundreds of $).
I did the work myself a while back. The die I used was not ideal as it was not split and had no lead in threads. However it was High Speed Steel and after a lot of hard work it did the job. I was easily able to cut the 1? off with a hand hacksaw. After cutting the thread I wound the die back until it was 1? from the bottom of the strut and used the face of the die as a guide for the hacksaw. I then wound the die back up, lightly (to avoid heat) cleaned up the cut with an angle grinder and then wound the die off which cleaned up the threads at the cut. I think this job needs to be done off the plane in a vice with the other end well supported.

Fin 9A
Australia
 
Any good sources for the 1.250 x 16 TPI die? I cannot find anything on the internet. San Tex is just a distributor, but I guess I can get one from them.
 
Good question. There are dies available from $40 to $130. Many tools' quality tracks the price, but not all. I ordered the $130 one from a reputable machining tool supplier here in Minneapolis (Walter Hammond, Inc.). We plan to do two legs with it, we'll see how it goes. It is a 2.5", adjustable sort.

The cheaper sort can be found here. You'll have to dig a little, but generally look for round adjustable dies. The 1.25"-16 thread is an 16-UN thread (not to be confused with the food for money guys). I have no idea if these dies are junk or not.
 
Price for the die

Wow, I just called a local supplier that can get me a die, but the estimated price is around $125.00. I am pretty sure I could get a local machine shop to do it for me for that price. Also, the die this suplier had available in 1.250 X 16 TPI was an adjustable die, perhaps that is the reason for the high cost. I hope someone can chime in here with a source for a much less expensive die.

Randy C
RV7A
 
Finley Atherton said:
G'day mate,
This getting good. Two shouts waiting for me in the good old US of A so far. Gil Alexander owes me one from an earlier bet I won. Nearly worth a trip over. Onya.

Hooroo,
Fin
Oz
Click to expand...

Allow me translate Auzzie to American. The next time I'm in the States Geico & Gil have to buy the 1st rounds of adult beverages. Your "shout" means you have to shout at the waitress. lol:D
 
MSC

Larry,
The dies can also be found at www.mscdirect.com for around $40-$50...the split/adjustable kind. The machinist that came by yesterday asked me how I was going to drill the new hole for the cotter key......that's when I remembered drilling it before....wasn't hard at all, so maybe there's not nearly the problem it was first thought to be. Be sure and leave the existing threads as a guide for the die, then when it's threaded, cut off the NG. Edit: visit
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000035746779 and scroll down to the sixth die on that page. Part number 03946506 $55.62 is a 1.25" 16 TPI split die.
Regards,
 
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Thanks Pierre! That was a great help!

I have decided to order the die and do it myself. I am going to try a couple of ways to thread & cut the gear to lenght on the plane.
 
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I have an idea I would like to run past the crew. This involves leaving the gear leg on the plane.

My idea is to remove the wheel and start the die on the leg. Lower the gear onto a sturdy wooden support like a 4x4 for support and thread the leg that way. Any movement / tourque from the threading would then be stabilized by the leg being on the support.

What do you think?
 
Interesting idea, Geico. However, I wouldn't use a 4x4, as they have a tendency to roll over, in which case you could find yourself in a heap of trouble. I used to use 2 pieces of 2x6 or 2x8's securely nailed together when working in situations like that.
I hope that works out ok for you.
btw, I'm glad to see you and others are going to do this mod. When I first started investigating which model RV I wanted to build, I was appalled at the number of A models that were flipping over. I think this mod will help to alleviate this tendency greatly. Good luck to all, and keep those A's flying long and safely.

Joe Harwell
still RV dreaming.
 
report back please

Geico: Sounds like a good idea. If you decide to try that method, let us know how it works. I'm going to do the mod in March either on the plane (if you or others report success. Someone has to lead:)) or take it to a local machine shop.
 
source for die?

Alex,
What material is the one you got? HSS? Carbide? Do you have info details on source, mfg, p/n, etc for the one you got? Have you had a chance to use it yet?
brian



AlexPeterson said:
Good question. There are dies available from $40 to $130. Many tools' quality tracks the price, but not all. I ordered the $130 one from a reputable machining tool supplier here in Minneapolis (Walter Hammond, Inc.). We plan to do two legs with it, we'll see how it goes. It is a 2.5", adjustable sort.

The cheaper sort can be found here. You'll have to dig a little, but generally look for round adjustable dies. The 1.25"-16 thread is an 16-UN thread (not to be confused with the food for money guys). I have no idea if these dies are junk or not.
Click to expand...
 
how about

Geico266 said:
I have an idea I would like to run past the crew. This involves leaving the gear leg on the plane.

My idea is to remove the wheel and start the die on the leg. Lower the gear onto a sturdy wooden support like a 4x4 for support and thread the leg that way. Any movement / tourque from the threading would then be stabilized by the leg being on the support.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

stacking 3-4 pieces of 2x6 and drilling a hole in the center just big enough for the existing threads to drop in, with the tap on the old threads then thread up the desired distance 1" (i think) and then cutting off the old portion. as pierre said use the old threads for a guide....that really removes alot of potential for error.

man i could have saved some money:(

added: dies should probally not be loadded so i suppose you wouldnt want too much weight on the die if any.
 
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Cutting fluid in general for non ferrous & ferrous Mat.

Hi all
Been reading this thread. Some general notes about taps & dies i would like to share with you all.From a machine repair man point of view.
Some might not know to turn 1/4 to 1/2 of turn and stop then back past start point and go at it again . you will have a much better looking thread most of the time and not leave a broken tap in a hole or chipped die,note they make a tool just to take out a broken tap or it can be EMT out lots of
$$$.

If you can used a long taper it starts better and takes less cut at 1st .
Better yet used a thread forming tap insted of a cutting tap exceptional on aluminum thats thin and or need more holding power .It take a different size drill than a reg tap so it take a little more to turn it because it has to form not cut into the part.

Cutting fluid .
Donot used engine lubricant for cutting .
There is non ferrous & ferrous cutting fluid and a few to used on both.
This is a name but i am old school and it works TAPMAGIC line has both non & ferrous cutting fluid on forming tool ask what work best. Keep it cool and it will not work harden . SS or any thing with nickel in it is the pits.

Drills, hss or hss tin for whatever but something hard or you got lots of driling used COBALT drills the best, used cutting fluid on the hard or ss parts.

OK sorry for the run of the yak yak any way hope this save someone bacon.
Willaim
 
lead time

I just ordered my nose gear fork. Van's said 4-6 week lead time. So, if you plan to get this, I'd suggest ordering early.
HTH,
brian
 
it worked fine, but no $$$ saved

as described in earlier posts on this thread and on another thread http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=24523 , removing the nose gear leg just wasn't going to be an option for me. To make a long story short, I used the $50 Japanese die from MSC and did most of the threads with that. However, it got tighter and tighter as I added threads, with a LOT of binding, despite using lots of lubricant and back-and-forth. By the time I'd done 7/8" of threads, it was so tight, I was using a 2' cheater pipe and broke the handle on the die holder.

I bought a new $120 US-made die from F&D Tool, and it worked super. First, even adjusted all the way out, it cut more into the threads I'd already created, so the die wasn't binding up any more. Then it did the rest of the threads easily, with no binding & no cheater bar needed.

You CAN thread it yourself, but be sure to get a very good US-made adjustable die, use lots lubricant and back-and-forth motion,. It doesn't save any money, though, so the only reason for doing it is for people whose leg or leg bolt is in too tight to get out, as mine was.

for details, see http://brian76.mystarband.net/engineFeb08.htm#feb24
 
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