Boulder, CO to San Diego

I plan to fly from PA to Boulder within the next two weeks and after a few days in Boulder on to San Diego. I am looking for suggestions as to the best route through the mountains, Boulder to San Diego. Ideally I would end up with three routes, northern, southern, and direct, that will give me options based on weather. I am a mountain flying neophyte so safety will be my biggest concern. I do plan to fly with an instructor while at Boulder.

Paul Eckenroth
N509RV

I fly to Fort Collins from Oregon

And take the low route round the Rockies at Laramie.

I would go direct but I always get there around lunchtime which means thunderheads are building over the Rockies so the low route pretty much keeps me out of trouble.

Don't know if that will work for you or not?

Frank

Paul,
I'll be interested in the post of other RV folks. I'm still building my 9A, but have flown from the western slope to the Denver area and back a few times in a light sport. The winds in the Boulder area can be really bad. For that matter, the east slope can be windy. If you want the "easy way out", I'd fly south to Raton NM and then cut west between Santa Fe and Albuquerque.

Other possibilities to get across the divide are Carona Pass near Boulder; or go south of Monarch Pass to Marshall pass (both near Salida, CO); then toward Gunnison/Montrose. Of Course you can go to Wyoming also.

In the past three weeks I've been turned back by bad weather twice. The mountains can be very beautiful, but they deserve a lot of respect in a small plane. "They" teach mountain flying because it's got a different set of problems/challenges than flat land flying.

I have a "Colorado Aeronautical Chart" from the Colorado Dept of Transportation, Division of Aeronautics in Watkins, CO. If you can get one of those, it may help with your route.

Good luck and enjoy the beauty of Colorado.
Harmon

The Raton/Albuquerque path is a good one. If you want some minimal exposure to mountain flying (OVER as opposed to in the valley), consider Boulder to COS to 1v6 to ANK to GUC to MTJ then towards San Diego as terrain permits.

Note that these are just close airports and you would fly as required to stay away from alert areas, restricted areas etc.

I am assuming that you want to stay at 10,500' or lower...and minimize time at 12,500' and above.

Flight following may get you through some of the many restricted areas out west.

Will the instructor take you to Leadville?

AOPA has an online mountain flying course than you may find useful. Two biggies: Learn to lean your engine and land and take-off using essentially your normal airspeed. The main hint here is not to use groundspeed as a reference since it will be higher than you are used to.

bullet point

as a point of reference....

I've flown a Cessna 152 from Colorado Springs to Death Valley via a southern route.

C-springs --> through la veta pass --> Alamosa --> Farmington --> Grand canyon --> Las Vegas --> Furnace creek

The only tall things to cross were at La Veta pass. I flew it at 12,000.
once through there it drops down and pretty much flattens out into W-i-i-d-e valleys. Lots of open space.

The other hills were between vegas and Furnace creek, but they seemed so small compared to the front range.

Almost the same route on the way back except, I stopped at Page, AZ instead of Grand Canyon.

I couldn't get flight following through Colorado because you need to be higher than 14,000 to get picked up on radar.

Enjoy.

The I 80 route or I 40 route would be preferable to direct. Last time I looked the direct route would take you over lots of high rough country.

Southern route

I would lean toward the southern route if you're going to San Diego and want minimal risk. Either the northern or southern routes permit you to stay over or within gliding distance of valley bottoms most of the time, good for peace of mind.

When I fly out west I try to be done by early afternoon because it tends to get rough (thermals and/or wind). In Colorado you can set your watch by the 3 pm thunderstorms.

Head towards Las Vagas, New Mexico (KLVS) and hang a right. That takes you just north of Albuquerque. Stay to the north of Phoeinx, AZ and contact SOCAL approach after you cross the mountains. Make sure you plan on doing a touch & go in Death Valley. The only place you'll land where you are BELOW sea level. Best safest route, IMHO.

Thanks

Thanks for all the suggestions and advise. I will plot the various suggestions on the map and have it with me in Boulder to review with an instructor. The mountain flying instruction at KEIK involves flying to 4 - 6 airports in the mountains which should give a good background for handling my trip.
If any additional suggestion, send them on.

Paul Eckenroth
N509RV

Not quite...

Geico266 said:

...Make sure you plan on doing a touch & go in Death Valley. The only place you'll land where you are BELOW sea level...

Click to expand...

Not quite... while you're in Southern California... you can come to my neck of the woods - the desert resort communities from Palm Springs to La Quinta - and do below sea level (-115') T&G's at KTRM - It is a short hop from KUDD Bermuda Dunes and my back yard.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRM

DJ

Or you can...

Geico266 said:

Head towards Las Vagas, New Mexico (KLVS) and hang a right. That takes you just north of Albuquerque. Stay to the north of Phoeinx, AZ and contact SOCAL approach after you cross the mountains. Make sure you plan on doing a touch & go in Death Valley. The only place you'll land where you are BELOW sea level. Best safest route, IMHO.

Click to expand...

....take a more Southerly route and miss a lot of the mountains.

From the ABQ area, head South to Deming (DMN) then sort of follow I-10 to the Tucson area, then to Gila Bend to miss the big "R Areas" on the sectionals, then follow I-8 to Yuma and straight into San Diego staying just North of Mexico...

Cut and Paste

BDU LVS ABQ TCS DMN TUS E63 BZA SDM

....into the route box of www.skyvector.com and you can get the general idea. Did this one last year....

monarch pass!

HLow said:

Paul,

Other possibilities to get across the divide are Carona Pass near Boulder; or go south of Monarch Pass to Marshall pass (both near Salida, CO); then toward Gunnison/Montrose. Of Course you can go to Wyoming also.

Click to expand...

Ah, Monarch Pass. Yes I know it well, gateway to Gunnison. 13213 ft. I've crossed it on bicycle. Although it is very beautiful, I recommend heading further south.

Phyrcooler said:

Not quite... while you're in Southern California... you can come to my neck of the woods - the desert resort communities from Palm Springs to La Quinta - and do below sea level (-115') T&G's at KTRM - It is a short hop from KUDD Bermuda Dunes and my back yard.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTRM

DJ

Click to expand...

KIPL (Imperial Valley) too at 54 feet below sea level. You get the added excitement of being on short final and seeing a control tower at an uncontrolled airport. Freaked me out, 'cause I thought for sure I'd violated Class C airspace or that I was on final for the Navy field next door (even worse). Turned out that it was just abandoned...

Monarch Pass

11,312 feet...not >13,000' per this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_Pass

Fort Collins-Loveland (FNL) to San Diego

My trips to San Diego (Ramona - RNM) so far have all been a southern route, one of 2 variations:

1. FNL to Alamosa using Hayden Pass, Alamosa to Winslow, AZ using Cumbres Pass, Winslow to Ramona.
2. FNL to Raton, NM using Raton Pass, Raton to Winslow, AZ, Winslow to Ramona.

Hoping to work up the nerve to go over the top, to Granby, CO, Granby to Page AZ, Page to Ramona.

GrayHawk it is all about risk tolerance. FNL to Granby does not look too bad since you do open up to a valley towards Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction. I don't fly extended periods over mountainous terrain. Likely for the same reason that you don't.

Fact is that in some areas of Utah, there may not be mountains but I consider the terrain less than hospitable for a uneventful landing.

Another option is FNL south and cross over the front range around the SW Denver area. That opens up then south to cross at Monarch pass. Easy from there on.

One good thing about this option or similar is that you can fly by Four Corners, Monument Valley (near UT25), and over the Grand canyon (get the GC map).

Altitude vs Time

I noticed that some of the routes provided as "safer" options still involve prolonged flight over generally unlandable terrain, and in some cases the terrain was not materially lower in elevation compared to more direct routes. Is the reason for this primarily due to the lack of onboard O2?

If you have O2, does it not provide a lower risk profile to fly over the higher terrain if doing so results in less "time" spent over unlandable terrain? I'm interested to hear what the "Altitude vs Time" calculus is on this issue for you seasoned mountain flyers. Thanks.

Early Morning

GrayHawk said:

1. FNL to Alamosa using Hayden Pass, Alamosa to Winslow, AZ using Cumbres Pass, Winslow to Ramona.

Click to expand...

Some of the of the most beautiful flights I have done Is through Hayden- then on to Wolf creek pass over the highway (or short cut the pass direct at times). 6Am in the morning with no turb at all- that is the key if you would like to enjoy the ride. I would recommend very early mornings to all first time rocky crossers!

Bill, O2 may allow you to fly high enough that you could reach a road. Having driven over some of the areas that I fly over, I generally assume that desert areas are not good for landing. Yes you may survive. But whether you can land without significant damage to the aircraft is questionable IMO. I can't prove it (aircraft damage) but given a road and some of the terrain I have seen that may look flat and smooth from 8000' AGL, I will go for the road.

On one trip from COS/00V to Page AZ I diverted a bit south to be closer to a road. Also have flown near the same road departing Page until I got high enough to have more options.

I have flown places where an engine out would have put me in an ocean, in mountainous terrain or in a desert. I just try to minimize that exposure.

Thanks for your comments Ron.

Here's an example of what I'm thinking using the exercise that was set forth in this post of "navigating" the high Rockies enroute from Ft. Collins to San Diego (this example only goes as far as Cortez, CO but gets you west of the real high mountains - and O2 is required). Here is the route: fnl;rlg/v;dbl/v;99v;mtj/v;cez - If you copy and paste this route into runwayfinder.com you'll see that you can go nearly direct over the very highest part of the Rockies and never be much further than 50 NM from an airport (either waypoints or short deviations from the route). At RV curise speeds (say 150 KTAS) this means that you are never more than about 20 minutes from being within reach of an airport if you need to land.

To me, this could be a less risky flight than one at lower altitudes with more sustained time over unlandable terrain, be it the ocean, desert, etc., because you spend less actual time exposed to peril. If you continue the flight from Cortez to Winslow, AZ you have a considerably longer stretch between airports and over unlandable terrain than you do using the route above through the "high country". I'm wondering if more folks feel comfortable with flying longer (in time) stretches over hostile landscapes (albeit at lower altitudes) than they do going high over the "hills" even when the actual time of exposure may be shorter...

It should be noted that my comparison only considers the "quantity" of exposure in time, but we know that exposure also has a qualitative component as well. The survivability of a forced landing in the tall mountains is likely to be lower than over a relatively flat desert or ocean, and therefore a proper risk analysis must consider these factors as well.

I've done quite a bit of soaring in the Cascades, Sierra Nevada and the Rockies, and have always been moved by the breathtaking beauty of those alpine environments ("Familiarity Bias" alert!). But I know that flying RVs in the mountains is a different ballgame...for one thing, the glide ratio is not quite as good .

Paul, if you want one of those Colorado sectional like maps send me your mailing address. I think I have a few around. It may help with understanding what people are discussing here.

Flying Co.

If one were to plan a flight from Leadville to Furnace creek, what would be the recommend way to cross Colorado?

Highest to lowest airport. You should get great mileage, as it is downhill all the way.

Kent

Land in the desert

WhiskeyMike said:

Here's an example of what I'm thinking using the exercise that was set forth in this post of "navigating" the high Rockies enroute from Ft. Collins to San Diego (this example only goes as far as Cortez, CO but gets you west of the real high mountains - and O2 is required). ...

To me, this could be a less risky flight than one at lower altitudes with more sustained time over unlandable terrain, be it the ocean, desert, etc., because you spend less actual time exposed to peril. ...

It should be noted that my comparison only considers the "quantity" of exposure in time, but we know that exposure also has a qualitative component as well. The survivability of a forced landing in the tall mountains is likely to be lower than over a relatively flat desert or ocean, and therefore a proper risk analysis must consider these factors as well.

Click to expand...

I'm not an experienced mountain pilot by any stretch, but I have flown from Wisconsin to California about a half dozen times round trip in the RV. I've also spend a lot of time on the ground in the same places, working as a geologist.

I agree that flying over the higher country is fun to do (under the right conditions), but I'd sure rather be over the desert if the engine quits. The reason is that there are roads in the desert, lots of them actually if you count all the jeep tracks. Apart from roads, most of the desert floor is covered with sagebrush or something similar. Your plane might not survive a landing, but the occupants would at least have a chance. The higher hills are covered with big rocks and tall trees, really not much chance at all.

Airports 50 miles apart doesn't help much if you can only glide 10 miles.

Kent, I would use this path:

LXV south to Salida (ANK), hang a right and west over Monarch Pass towards Gunnison (GUC). Then west between Montrose (MTJ) and Telluride (TEX). You may want to land there (TEX). Neat approach. The airport is closed for runway reconstruction until November I think.

Southwest to Monument Valley (UT25). Prior to UT25/Monument Valley, you can also circle over Four Corners. West to refuel at Page AZ (PGA) then south over Marble Canyon then through one of the Grand Canyon VFR corridors. Land at Grand Canyon if you wish.

West towards Las Vegas, maybe just a bit south and over Class B to Furnace Creek.

Similar trips here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=29430

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28308

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=25729

As far as fuel, you may elect to depart Leadville without full tanks. In that case, I would have enough to get to the Gunnison/Montrose area where there are plenty of fueling options. Climb out of Leadville to be able to cross Monarch Pass then descend into the valley.

Thanks Ron.

Looks like a plan. I'll need to work this into a trip.

Kent

Ask the locals...

Paul, I fly out of BDU and BJC and learned to fly at BJC and I can attest to the winds being tricky around here at times. I am a new pilot and have not finished my mt. checkout yet (and yes, around here, we have specific mt. flying checkouts). Flying with an instructor while you're here is a great idea...although most of them arent 'bush' pilots they do have a lot of good knowledge about the challenges of flying the Rockies and which routes to take. I can recommend one if you dont have one in mind, just send me a PM.

As someone already mentioned, go early in the day, the winds pick up almost every afternoon and t-storms move in. And if you do fly 'over' the mts, most instructors will tell you to keep at least 1000' above the highest terrain when crossing ridges and dont go if the winds aloft are 30+ kts. Enjoy your visit to our great state!!

Thanks for your feedback Alan, and for your good suggestions.

Because human beings are naturally risk averse, it should not surprise that given the choice between exposure to a substantial-but-probably-survivable risk for a longer duration of time OR a substantial-and-probably-unsurvivable risk for a shorter duration of time that most folks will choose the former.

But on the other hand, reducing the exposure (duration) to any given risk (regardless of the severity of that risk) results in a reduction in overall risk. So both the severity and duration of competing risks should be considered. This may be challenging in the real world when our physical safety is on the line, but can be achieved through education, practice and experience.

Anyway, I'm always interested in learning how others who participate in high risk activities think and process. Thanks again!

WhiskeyMike said:

Thanks for your feedback Alan, and for your good suggestions.

Because human beings are naturally risk averse, it should not surprise that given the choice between exposure to a substantial-but-probably-survivable risk for a longer duration of time OR a substantial-and-probably-unsurvivable risk for a shorter duration of time that most folks will choose the former.

But on the other hand, reducing the exposure (duration) to any given risk (regardless of the severity of that risk) results in a reduction in overall risk. So both the severity and duration of competing risks should be considered. This may be challenging in the real world when our physical safety is on the line, but can be achieved through education, practice and experience.

Anyway, I'm always interested in learning how others who participate in high risk activities think and process. Thanks again!

Click to expand...

Bill,

These are good points. The problem I can see with the comparing survivability vs. duration though is that its hard to actually quantify the risks (unless something goes wrong). Its easy to fall into the "I've done this 99 times before, so it must be safe" trap.

Alan,

I think that every pilot has to quantify and weigh those risks based on their objectives, experience and (hopefully well reasoned) judgement. My only point was that duration of risk should be part of the mix when seeking an overall risk assessment.

As pilots we regularly weigh multiple (and often competing) risk factors each time we leave the surly bonds. Our own risk tolerence, training, experience, equipment and available information are the tools we use to perform this calculus. And I for one would not elimiate these risks (even if it were somehow possible) because without them flying would not be the inspiring and fulfilling adventure that it is (think bowling or golf; no offense intended, and with all due respect to bowlers and duffers! ). As PIC we are responsible for making these judgments each time we fly...the stakes are indeed high, but man, so is the reward!

It has been written by others more eloquent than I that flying is an excellent metaphore for life...me thinks they are correct .

Intimidating

I have plotted many of the suggested routes and find them intimidating due to the terrain and distance between airports. Since the bulk of my flying is in the East I am accustom to hills (some call them mountains) and airports everywhere. I think my best move would be to get some mountain flying instruction near Boulder and then plot a course based on my new found comfort level with the assistance of an additional hour of ground school and an accomplished instructor. I want to experience the beauty and excitement of Rocky Mountain flying so I don't want to dumb it down too far.
Thanks to everyone who suggested routes or other advice. Also thanks Ron for the offer of the map. I have had the CO map for two years but still had to ask for advice.

Paul Eckenroth
N509RV

Paul, I never flew in the mountains until I got my RV and took the Mountain Flying course offered by an organization here. Even then I had to build experience to gain comfort.

Taking a course as you intend to do is wise. At that point you can fly an interstate routing south as suggested and just cut corners over smaller mountains to gain more experience.

You are right about airport spacing here.

My San Diego to Boulder experience

Responding to an old thread, but I thought I would share my recent trip here for posterity.

This weekend we had some clear weather across the western US. Enough time to fly out to Boulder to visit our daughter who is attending CU. Also it was a get away weekend for our 26th wedding anniversary. The stars aligned and we decided to go for it. I booked a hotel (Marriott Residence Inn) which is within walking distance to KBDU with my rewards points for free. I also reserved a rental car, but sadly it never was delivered to the airport and the office closes at noon on Saturday. The missing rental car was the only bad thing about the trip, but we were able to ride the RTA busses to get around and over to Pearl St. for dinner.

We launched at sunrise from Ramona (KRNM) and flew mostly direct via Thermal to Needles to the Grand Canyon Dragon corridor, then landed at Page, AZ for fuel. From Page we headed up over Lake Powell towards Montrose, CO, but we could see that the skies were clear in the direction of Boulder so we headed towards Rifle then Kremmling. We crossed the Continental Divide near Eldora ski resort. Once across the divide we descended into Boulder. We did get hit with a couple of strong bumps here and that got my attention.

Here is my APRS track, which was rock solid all the way over very remote terrain.


The return trip was pretty much the same route. We saw that the skies were clear over the divide, so we took off from Boulder and did a couple of circles over the city to gain plenty of altitude before turning west. The winds were gusting over the divide so my plan was to be at least 3000' over the Rollins Pass altitude of 11,700'. We got a bit of turbulence, but it wasn't too bad. I was climbing at Vy at some points and losing altitude in downdrafts, but after getting through them we would also get into some big updrafts. Check out our headwind component and Ground speed on this screen shot.



We crossed at around 15,700' then descended down to 12,500' and followed the Colorado River valley to Kremmling, Rifle, then down to 10,500' towards Grand Junction. We battled headwinds the entire way and they were less at lower altitudes. We flew right over Moab and Canyonlands at 8500', then over Lake Powell into Page, AZ for another fuel stop.

We flew over the Grand Canyon again, but this time did the Fossil Corridor.

APRS return track.


This was one of my bucket list trips and the scenery along the route is nothing short of spectacular. We took a bunch of photos that are online here.

Take the southern route mentioned by others. The biggest problem with overflying the Rockies between November and April is the strong prevailing westerly and northwesterly winds, including the jet stream parking itself overhead from time to time. These upper-level winds create insufferable turbulence over the rocks, even on clear days when it may not be windy at all on the ground. Thunderstorms will not be an issue this time of year. Have a great trip!

Bruce,
What a dream come true for you. he flight has to be so much better than the drive!! You are keeping me working on my plane so I can do the same stuff!!

Mountains

There is a lot more to wind in the mountains than just turbulence. I have seen 60 know loss of airspeed in the vicinity of Mount Taylor near Grants in just a few seconds. Likewise a 1000' minute descent at full power, below 1000' on takeoff at Gallup. Be very aware of low altitude winds aloft, surface wind history and gust factor. The day I almost didn't make it at Gallup the surface wind was light and variable, but in looking at the previous AWOS history the wind had been out of the north gusting as high as 35.
Any time the low level winds aloft are over 30 you should fly the upwind side of the tall mountains.
A word of caution about the four corners area. The airstrips on the reservations should be considered very carefully. Chinle and Window Rock would be OK for overnight tiedown. Some of the other airstrips if you leave the airplane it may not be there when you return. This is especially a concern where the airstrip is a long ways from town as is the case with Tuba City. A few years ago an Aerostar landed at Tuba with a damaged engine. The owner chose to hire a 24 hour guard for the airplane for several weeks.
A very wise choice, there would likely not have been much left were it not for the guard. The guard lived next to the airplane for the duration.